Thank you ZOS for putting an end to the Parsing Race and keeping the premise of the game!

dskrulz

Well, I am ready for the incoming hate rain, but I have to say that in my opinion as a casual mid-tier player (which probably is the biggest chunk of players in the game), I am so proud of ZOS for Updates 34 and 35 so far.

Now I'm not going to add screenshots of parsing and DPS, for the simple reason I don't do that. In a matter of fact, DPS parsing ruins the experience for me in general, but also due to the face I have Tourette's Syndrom, and my tics would't let me perfectly pressing keys whithout missing a big chunk of damage on a Parse. So what, I should never do trials because I have my disability? Accessibility speaking - when you guys are discussing it here on the forum, all I see is the cognitive disability getting a stage, where people are having a difficult time keeping track of the changes.
But what about people with Physical disabilities, who are really going to appreciate longer ability durations and a recovery to their muscles? And what about people with Neurological disabilities like me? With my tics that will increase in severity the minute my brain understands I have to keep pressing buttons flawlessly? So if you guys talk of disabilites, I tell you as a guy who has one - try to see the bigger picture, even though I know it's hard when most of you (I guess) are not disabled.

Back to the META. I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it's the right of people to set these goals of max damage and reach them. The problem is that the game got to focused on that, which is clouding the rest of the game - the most crucial part of the game, which is acutally the slogen of ESO: play however you want.
You can not play however you want, if what started as a niche ambition to reach max DPS, has become a standart for every DD class, that without it your playstyle, build and set choices are considered inferior.
In a "play however you want" world, I and a lot others could really create our unique builds (and oh, how much I love experimenting and how many sets combinations I've tried) - without having the concern that if I don't get the current META, I'm one of the weak ones.

I get it that every game has to have a META, I really do. It gives a direction to progress to and develop goals. But I do not agree when a META becomes the only way to achieve content. In other words, I'm Ok with the fact that there are stronger players than me who deal more DPS - what I'm not Ok with, is the limitation of content for mid-tiers.
I don't mind if it will take more time for me to complete a trial, I just mind actually doing it.
So it may sound contradictive, for the fact that ZOS nerfed the damage. But actually, by doing so, they created a situation where the DPS race has a lower ceiling, which means that achieving Ultra-High, non-compromising DPS now is less of a must, and more of a will.

I've mentioned Update 34, which was amazing because it opened the door to a literally endless build posibillities. Now you can really be whoever ypu want to be, without being stuck to either Stam or Mag. I can use my bow with magicka skills and being awesome doing so. I can decide how to divide my resources better. I can create much more versatiled bars.
I could see where ESO is going a few updates ago, it is going towards a direction where YOU CAN PLAY HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PLAY. And DPS, and META? of course they going to stay, they have to. But now I know few things are going to happen:

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

That was my opinion and my opinion only, no need for hate, toxicism or to crusify me (you're not gonna benefit much of it because I'm a jewish anyway). Love ya all - Daniel.

Firstmep

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the across the board damage nerfs will force even more people to play meta.
Maelstrom destro is going to be mandatory on every dd, regardless of class or spec.
The number of viable builds is also going down.
Zos haven't adjusted any of the content, so you still need to reach the same numbers as before, it is just going to be harder now.

dskrulz

Firstmep wrote: »

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the across the board damage nerfs will force even more people to play meta.
Maelstrom destro is going to be mandatory on every dd, regardless of class or spec.
The number of viable builds is also going down.
Zos haven't adjusted any of the content, so you still need to reach the same numbers as before, it is just going to be harder now.

I don't "Need" to reach anything my friend, that what the post was all about. I'm not doing Arenas and Trials, because being a META does not appeal to me. ZOS *will* adjust the content as I said, and then and only then I will do Arenas and Trials - when it does not demand a META build everyone's using.
So considering that, if the META is being weakened, the logic says that there will be a bigger chunk of players who will not try to be a META, as it is not as useful as it used to be, and they will start create their own builds, better learning their playstyle instead of a blind-follow High-end players, and finally be available to enjoy all the rest - and the MAJORITY - of the content (exploration, quests and story, dungeons and everything that is basically the common ground achievable by all players).

When you stop the race - the horses can rest. Let us all enjoy and experience all the aspects of the game, not just its competitive side, which is totally fine by itself, but again - not when there's an absolute need to be a part of it to be considered a "good/strong player". I'm considering myself good and strong player even though I don't to Arenas/Trials. Others, I believe, are not so lucky, and their mindset will not change if META is the only thing they can see and "Need" to reach.

FluffyBird

Did ZOS lower DPS requirements for high-end content? They didn't. Did they eliminate the need to pick the most optimal setup (meta)? They didn't. So this all is a bunch of wishful nonsense.

If you wanted more chill gameplay with lower DPS you could just let your DOTs fall off for a moment. I want more chill gameplay with higher DPS, because that's what would make it accessible and raise the floor. Buffing dots, not nerfing them. Because the "ceiling" is perfect weaving and high APM, which doesn't affect DOTs. Weaving won't make your Volley tick faster, right?

Wait, is this a solution?
Or am I just also stupid and missing something?

Runefang

dskrulz wrote: »

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

Yup - the real end game players are always the least affected by nerfs. Which is odd, because they're the targets aren't they?

dskrulz wrote: »

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

Nope, the further the mid-tier DPS gets from the DPS target required the more they NEED to move to the meta. Longer ground dots means you have to spend more time thinking about when and where to cast, not less. Fewer ground dots used means lower cleave damage, which will lengthen fights with multiple targets and adds.

Its a nerf to this group more than any other. People who don't do trials, don't try and get trifectas, don't do hard modes - they are fine. It's the ones who are trying and failing right now that need help the most.

dskrulz wrote: »

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

True, but we're the players, the customers. We're always right (except when we're being panicky and change resistant for the sake of it).

Jazraena

dskrulz wrote: »

Well, I am ready for the incoming hate rain, but I have to say that in my opinion as a casual mid-tier player (which probably is the biggest chunk of players in the game), I am so proud of ZOS for Updates 34 and 35 so far.

Now I'm not going to add screenshots of parsing and DPS, for the simple reason I don't do that. In a matter of fact, DPS parsing ruins the experience for me in general, but also due to the face I have Tourette's Syndrom, and my tics would't let me perfectly pressing keys whithout missing a big chunk of damage on a Parse. So what, I should never do trials because I have my disability? Accessibility speaking - when you guys are discussing it here on the forum, all I see is the cognitive disability getting a stage, where people are having a difficult time keeping track of the changes.
But what about people with Physical disabilities, who are really going to appreciate longer ability durations and a recovery to their muscles? And what about people with Neurological disabilities like me? With my tics that will increase in severity the minute my brain understands I have to keep pressing buttons flawlessly? So if you guys talk of disabilites, I tell you as a guy who has one - try to see the bigger picture, even though I know it's hard when most of you (I guess) are not disabled.

Back to the META. I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it's the right of people to set these goals of max damage and reach them. The problem is that the game got to focused on that, which is clouding the rest of the game - the most crucial part of the game, which is acutally the slogen of ESO: play however you want.
You can not play however you want, if what started as a niche ambition to reach max DPS, has become a standart for every DD class, that without it your playstyle, build and set choices are considered inferior.
In a "play however you want" world, I and a lot others could really create our unique builds (and oh, how much I love experimenting and how many sets combinations I've tried) - without having the concern that if I don't get the current META, I'm one of the weak ones.

I get it that every game has to have a META, I really do. It gives a direction to progress to and develop goals. But I do not agree when a META becomes the only way to achieve content. In other words, I'm Ok with the fact that there are stronger players than me who deal more DPS - what I'm not Ok with, is the limitation of content for mid-tiers.
I don't mind if it will take more time for me to complete a trial, I just mind actually doing it.
So it may sound contradictive, for the fact that ZOS nerfed the damage. But actually, by doing so, they created a situation where the DPS race has a lower ceiling, which means that achieving Ultra-High, non-compromising DPS now is less of a must, and more of a will.

I've mentioned Update 34, which was amazing because it opened the door to a literally endless build posibillities. Now you can really be whoever ypu want to be, without being stuck to either Stam or Mag. I can use my bow with magicka skills and being awesome doing so. I can decide how to divide my resources better. I can create much more versatiled bars.
I could see where ESO is going a few updates ago, it is going towards a direction where YOU CAN PLAY HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PLAY. And DPS, and META? of course they going to stay, they have to. But now I know few things are going to happen:

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

That was my opinion and my opinion only, no need for hate, toxicism or to crusify me (you're not gonna benefit much of it because I'm a jewish anyway). Love ya all - Daniel.

Let me make this abundantly clear:
- DoT Duration are less harmonized than on Live right now.
- Meta will become more important since everyone looses DPS; and off-meta setups often more so. I've been playing off-meta for a while, but the changes push me right back towards it.
- Consequently, accessibility is going down, not up.

You are blinded by ZOS' mission statement. Many of us, myself included, agree with this mission statement, that's not the problem. The problem is that the actual changes don't do what their mission statement said they would do.

I would love if ZOS would push the game in the direction you seem to like. I share that with you. So would many others.

But it's not where ZOS is actually going.

Firstmep

Runefang wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

Yup - the real end game players are always the least affected by nerfs. Which is odd, because they're the targets aren't they?

dskrulz wrote: »

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

Nope, the further the mid-tier DPS gets from the DPS target required the more they NEED to move to the meta. Longer ground dots means you have to spend more time thinking about when and where to cast, not less. Fewer ground dots used means lower cleave damage, which will lengthen fights with multiple targets and adds.

Its a nerf to this group more than any other. People who don't do trials, don't try and get trifectas, don't do hard modes - they are fine. It's the ones who are trying and failing right now that need help the most.

dskrulz wrote: »

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

True, but we're the players, the customers. We're always right (except when we're being panicky and change resistant for the sake of it).

This last bit is so true.
This is a game. It's supposed to be fun.
All this spreadsheet balancing and equalizing everything is taking flavor away from classes.
I dont find it fun when 5 out of 6 classes have to run the same sets and skills, with barely any difference.
Fun would be each class and spec having a unique way to tackle content.
Nerfing everyone across the board just lessens the choices we have.

dskrulz

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Xuhora

thats a big "if" in your thread...

Luke_Flamesword

Sorry, but there always be META - with such a complex game there are always will be more efficient combination of strategy, gear, skills, etc. resulting with better scores than other combinations. You can't avoid that, no matter how hard they balance game. Of course then can make smaller gap between floor and ceiling but as long there is ANY gap, there will be also META.

I'm not fan of chasing META either, I build my characters with decent gear but never chase perfect combinations, because this is so boring. To be honest, from PvP perspective I'm tired of OP combinations of skills and gear, which makes some strategies much more efficient than other (for example tank meta). I'm afraid that making weaving less relevant, PvP will be less about fighting skill and more about building meta gear, which will make things even worse...

ESO_Nightingale

dskrulz wrote: »

Well, I am ready for the incoming hate rain, but I have to say that in my opinion as a casual mid-tier player (which probably is the biggest chunk of players in the game), I am so proud of ZOS for Updates 34 and 35 so far.

Now I'm not going to add screenshots of parsing and DPS, for the simple reason I don't do that. In a matter of fact, DPS parsing ruins the experience for me in general, but also due to the face I have Tourette's Syndrom, and my tics would't let me perfectly pressing keys whithout missing a big chunk of damage on a Parse. So what, I should never do trials because I have my disability? Accessibility speaking - when you guys are discussing it here on the forum, all I see is the cognitive disability getting a stage, where people are having a difficult time keeping track of the changes.
But what about people with Physical disabilities, who are really going to appreciate longer ability durations and a recovery to their muscles? And what about people with Neurological disabilities like me? With my tics that will increase in severity the minute my brain understands I have to keep pressing buttons flawlessly? So if you guys talk of disabilites, I tell you as a guy who has one - try to see the bigger picture, even though I know it's hard when most of you (I guess) are not disabled.

Back to the META. I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it's the right of people to set these goals of max damage and reach them. The problem is that the game got to focused on that, which is clouding the rest of the game - the most crucial part of the game, which is acutally the slogen of ESO: play however you want.
You can not play however you want, if what started as a niche ambition to reach max DPS, has become a standart for every DD class, that without it your playstyle, build and set choices are considered inferior.
In a "play however you want" world, I and a lot others could really create our unique builds (and oh, how much I love experimenting and how many sets combinations I've tried) - without having the concern that if I don't get the current META, I'm one of the weak ones.

I get it that every game has to have a META, I really do. It gives a direction to progress to and develop goals. But I do not agree when a META becomes the only way to achieve content. In other words, I'm Ok with the fact that there are stronger players than me who deal more DPS - what I'm not Ok with, is the limitation of content for mid-tiers.
I don't mind if it will take more time for me to complete a trial, I just mind actually doing it.
So it may sound contradictive, for the fact that ZOS nerfed the damage. But actually, by doing so, they created a situation where the DPS race has a lower ceiling, which means that achieving Ultra-High, non-compromising DPS now is less of a must, and more of a will.

I've mentioned Update 34, which was amazing because it opened the door to a literally endless build posibillities. Now you can really be whoever ypu want to be, without being stuck to either Stam or Mag. I can use my bow with magicka skills and being awesome doing so. I can decide how to divide my resources better. I can create much more versatiled bars.
I could see where ESO is going a few updates ago, it is going towards a direction where YOU CAN PLAY HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PLAY. And DPS, and META? of course they going to stay, they have to. But now I know few things are going to happen:

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

That was my opinion and my opinion only, no need for hate, toxicism or to crusify me (you're not gonna benefit much of it because I'm a jewish anyway). Love ya all - Daniel.

i really don't think you and many people defending these changes really understand the repercussions that they'll have on the lower end players.

Troodon80

The title of the topic is at odds with the content of your post, the proposed changes in the PTS patch notes for the last three weeks, and shows a lack of understanding for what the changes will bring.

Thank you ZOS for putting an end to the Parsing Race and keeping the premise of the game!

Putting an end to the "Parsing Race"? Which rag are you getting your information from? The "parsing race" is still very much real and active and will ultimately hurt those on the lower and mid-tier of end game, while simultaneously making it impossible to clear achievements like Swashbuckler Supreme.

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt.

Top-tier end game players almost always do. Or they leave.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using.

Since everything is equally weaker than before, there will definitely be a meta and it will absolutely shine through. People will still want it. More-so after the patch as everyone tries to eek out as much damage as they can to retain whatever ranks they might have in various Guilds/Discords, but also be able to actually clear content. It will create more gatekeeping, not less.

I understand it's only an opinion, but you should really do more research into the topic that you are expressing your opinion on.

Jazraena

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

No, that's not the only thing, though it certainly would help.

But evidently they're not doing that either.

washbern

dskrulz wrote: »

Well, I am ready for the incoming hate rain, but I have to say that in my opinion as a casual mid-tier player (which probably is the biggest chunk of players in the game), I am so proud of ZOS for Updates 34 and 35 so far.

Now I'm not going to add screenshots of parsing and DPS, for the simple reason I don't do that. In a matter of fact, DPS parsing ruins the experience for me in general, but also due to the face I have Tourette's Syndrom, and my tics would't let me perfectly pressing keys whithout missing a big chunk of damage on a Parse. So what, I should never do trials because I have my disability? Accessibility speaking - when you guys are discussing it here on the forum, all I see is the cognitive disability getting a stage, where people are having a difficult time keeping track of the changes.
But what about people with Physical disabilities, who are really going to appreciate longer ability durations and a recovery to their muscles? And what about people with Neurological disabilities like me? With my tics that will increase in severity the minute my brain understands I have to keep pressing buttons flawlessly? So if you guys talk of disabilites, I tell you as a guy who has one - try to see the bigger picture, even though I know it's hard when most of you (I guess) are not disabled.

Back to the META. I don't think it is a bad thing, I think it's the right of people to set these goals of max damage and reach them. The problem is that the game got to focused on that, which is clouding the rest of the game - the most crucial part of the game, which is acutally the slogen of ESO: play however you want.
You can not play however you want, if what started as a niche ambition to reach max DPS, has become a standart for every DD class, that without it your playstyle, build and set choices are considered inferior.
In a "play however you want" world, I and a lot others could really create our unique builds (and oh, how much I love experimenting and how many sets combinations I've tried) - without having the concern that if I don't get the current META, I'm one of the weak ones.

I get it that every game has to have a META, I really do. It gives a direction to progress to and develop goals. But I do not agree when a META becomes the only way to achieve content. In other words, I'm Ok with the fact that there are stronger players than me who deal more DPS - what I'm not Ok with, is the limitation of content for mid-tiers.
I don't mind if it will take more time for me to complete a trial, I just mind actually doing it.
So it may sound contradictive, for the fact that ZOS nerfed the damage. But actually, by doing so, they created a situation where the DPS race has a lower ceiling, which means that achieving Ultra-High, non-compromising DPS now is less of a must, and more of a will.

I've mentioned Update 34, which was amazing because it opened the door to a literally endless build posibillities. Now you can really be whoever ypu want to be, without being stuck to either Stam or Mag. I can use my bow with magicka skills and being awesome doing so. I can decide how to divide my resources better. I can create much more versatiled bars.
I could see where ESO is going a few updates ago, it is going towards a direction where YOU CAN PLAY HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PLAY. And DPS, and META? of course they going to stay, they have to. But now I know few things are going to happen:

1. End-tier players (you awesome guys, really, I appreciate your ambitions to be the best) are going to adapt. I know they will, because they have such a high understanding of the game and its mechanics, and it's just not going to stop them. A new META will be set, and they will find a way to reach the possible maximum damage this update allows them to.

2. Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using. They are going to be SPECIAL - which is a sanctified thing in my eyes.
ESO from the first place encourage us to be WHOEVER we want - so fulfill that premise!

3. ESO is the game of ZOS. We the player give feedback, but it does not mean that every feedback has to be agreed with. If a feedback doesn't go eye-to-eye with ZOS plan for the game, it's just logical they won't make changes by it. I encourage them to keep and make ESO a game where I can create whatever playstyle I wish, and still be able to accomplish. And I know they will set the difficulty of the content proportional to the changes of U35.

That was my opinion and my opinion only, no need for hate, toxicism or to crusify me (you're not gonna benefit much of it because I'm a jewish anyway). Love ya all - Daniel.

I am not sure you understand the full picture these updates paint. Just a few days ago there was a fella here asking to nerf vateshran.

Yes, you can play how you want. You can make off META builds, join social guilds and explore Tamriel. That said, you should not expect to complete Trials or even dungeons with those kinds of builds.

I had a misfortune to run Banished Cells 2 on vet with 2 DPS who between both of them did less damage than my tank. After 1.5 hours, we disbanded because they couldn't kill the last boss.

This game has many different ways for people to enjoy it. And I have carried many, many people with off meta builds through trials and dungeons. Not calling myself top tier player or anything, but without players like us, players who prefer to not learn or Git Good will not do half the content you are doing now.

Stronger players attempted to teach weaker players in this game how to improve, but you will see many a post where we just gave up because of the attitude of "I play how I want! F off Elitist swine!" It's funny because top parsing players want to build a community, to share on the bounty of more difficult content and to do things that might be fun for people. The bottom feeders want everything to be served to them on a silver platter with zero effort on their part. For some reason ZOS decided cater to that demographic. So when the top players leave, when the guilds and raid groups break and you can't even do the simplest DLC dungeon because you are stuck with a group of "I play how I want" players.... we will see how proud of ZOS you will be.

luchtt

I am not sure you understand what is actually happening right now.

As it stands, the only thing that truly changes in these patch notes is accessibility of harder content, which is getting significantly more difficult. Current and previous patches have made it more and more possible to run off meta and suboptimal builds in harder content, however due to the sweeping dps/hps nerfs and other changes, this content is once again becoming more and more restricted for you, the type of player they said they tried to help.

Let me give you an example:
my current build on live for magDK reaches about 110k dps, 6light 1 medium. On PTS, it reaches about 90k. Pretty bad nerf considering the dummy itself got buffed. about 18-30% ish I've seen current meta builds lose.

Now, consider the following. a 94k sorcerer heavy attack build, often known for its more accessible nature and easier rotation etc, went from 94k down to just 50k. That's almost 50% nerf, 60% if you take into consideration the buffs on the dummy itself.

The reason people are outraged, is because accessibility is getting shafted across the board, and mostly for lower-mid tier players. I am sorry to spoil your optimism, but this patch is not good for you especially, if you felt you were ''not allowed'' to play off meta builds this current patch, be prepared for somehow even worse.

another example as I expect you to still cling on to your hope.
You said: ''Mid-tiers will FINALLY get their brain-wheels moving. They will be less going blind after META as they know it is weaker than before, and more trying to actually create their unique build that maybe no one is using.''

The problem with ''they will be going after meta less because it is weaker than before'' is ignoring the fact that, because the top is weaker, the bottom is significantly weaker too. The lower you go, the less optimized you become the worse you will have it this patch. This actually achieves the opposite of what you think it will. It means the lower end will need to be *even more* optimized and ''chasing the meta'' to complete the content they couldve done previous patches without as heavy optimization.

Casdha

As I've stated, I consider myself the high end of low level players and this change hardly affected the way I play, if at all.

All I can say for the rest is around here you always seem to get what you ask for but it never turns out to be in the way that you asked for it to be. Anyone remember all of the complaints over the last few years that the content needed to be harder because it was too easy and not fun? Well this is ZOS granting that demand. Anyone remember telling ZOS that the game plays like crap and needs to be fixed, yep this is them attempting to grant that wish as well.

I quit build chasing or worrying about game changes in 2016 or 2017 and haven't looked back since, there will be those that come back like I did and there will be those that stay away like many of my early days friends did. It all depends on why you like this game, for me I only play because it is in Tamriel and now I try to keep it as simple as that. I've got friends in this game that I've known since beta that are pushing 80 years old (maybe a few that have made it past) and will probably not be able to play by the time the next ES game is released, what else are they supposed to do until then, if they want to visit more of the continent?

Brrrofski

Thing is, these changes don't help anyone.

Endgame players will still parse, and still have cut offs for bringing people into content.

Yes, they'll be lower than before. But everyone's DPS will go down so achieving those numbers won't be much easier than reaching the standard now.

So it won't make a difference to most people's experience. If anything, people who could barely do a certain piece of content won't be able to do it anymore.

ZOS won't make the game easier. They feel like it's too easy for the most part now, and power creep has enabled that. The feeling is that they're scaling everyone back so some content is a challenge again.

They might make SOME adjustments to things like trial trifectas maybe, as I think some of them are impossible to achieve after these changes. But don't count on the bulk of the game changing.

For the players on the lower end, it won't change much either. DPS will still go down. Some DOTs will need to be reapplied less, but that's it. Some are old time still, so now you have more skills with different lengths to balance out.

Heavy attack builds were good for some players with less capability for whatever reason. That's gone.

I don't think anyone gains from it. I really don't.

Ground DOTs are even more useless in PvP now than they were already (some were ok to use sometimes). And the change to "sticky" heals means that some classes have terrible healing. Healing every two seconds in PvP is absolutely trash and not worth a slot.

This is categorically a bad change for 99% of the game. It will force meta more, and people who feel they were being left out will still feel the same as ever.

And this isn't hate, just my opinion.

I primarily play PvP these days and only pve when I need gear. I'll be fine still doing that. Things will take a little bit longer but I've played the game since release and will adapt and be fine. So I don't really have a horse in this race.

But it doesn't mean I like the changes, or think that they're good for the players that will be affected more than me.

Katheriah

Althought I respect your optimism and trust, I'm also afraid you haven't seen the effect of the changes in the right perspective.

DPS is nerfed. The 2ish% of people that do max. amount of damage, will still manage most content. Some trifecta's will be impossible, but the rest will be doable. It's the big chunk of players that don't have perfect rotations or gear that will effectively be able to do less content than they do now. They're not making content easier, they're just lowering DPS.

So, if you want to keep doing what you were doing or even start doing more difficult content, you need the best gear AND rotation.

Brrrofski

Katheriah wrote: »

Althought I respect your optimism and trust, I'm also afraid you haven't seen the effect of the changes in the right perspective.

DPS is nerfed. The 2ish% of people that do max. amount of damage, will still manage most content. Some trifecta's will be impossible, but the rest will be doable. It's the big chunk of players that don't have perfect rotations or gear that will effectively be able to do less content than they do now. They're not making content easier, they're just lowering DPS.

So, if you want to keep doing what you were doing or even start doing more difficult content, you need the best gear AND rotation.

I agree.

There's even an element that to make up for DPS loss from other sources, hitting light attacks (even nerfed ones) will be as needed as before.

Plus having high Empower uptime in a group will be super important, so groups without that will still fall far behind.

PrincessOfThieves

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Where did you get that idea from? They never claimed they would nerf content.
And no, lower overall dps doesn't mean no meta. Back in the days people could only do around 30k dps in trials, but it was just as difficult as doing 100k+ now (you had to wear meta sets, weave etc). The vast majority of people couldn't do it. If anything, trials are more accessible now, due to power creep.

EmilyElizabethESO

Can you share where they said they were going to nerf content @dskrulz ? I missed that part

Sandman929

Lowering content difficulty is how to increase access, but ZoS hasn't indicated that they're doing that.
Lowering damage is how you reduce access, which is what's happening in this update.
I don't see the source of the optimism that magically those underperforming are somehow getting their due.

KlauthWarthog

They have achieved the exact opposite of their stated goal.
DoT timers are harder to line up on the PTS than on Live, which means the DPS gap between skilled and not skilled will increase.
They reduced the overall DPS, but kept the current DPS checks, which means that people will either lose access to content, or have to spend longer farming meta clear and humping dummies to get back to it.
They reduced cleave damage, which means that adds will stay up for longer, which will increase the pressure on tanks and healers, meaning less players will be able to properly fill those roles.
In short, the gap between mid-tier and top-tier will increase a lot.

danno8

EmilyElizabethESO wrote: »

Can you share where they said they were going to nerf content @dskrulz ? I missed that part

Yah this is something I have seen several players insist will happen. Yet we are in to week 3 and not even a single mention of this potentially happening from a developer.

"Don't worry guys we are actively looking at recent content difficulty and will be adjusting as necessary!" That's all it would take but since we don't see it, we should assume it isn't happening.

FantasticFreddie

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Since I have been playing the game, coming up on 4 years now, zos has significantly nerfed content EXACTLY ONCE. They gave vHoF a tweak because the trial sucked and it had ridiculously low completion numbers.

When people were saying Bahsei hardmode was stupid difficult zos replied by nerfing a skill that people were using to cope with the absolutely massive amounts of incoming damage. Bahsei hardmode is still stupidly difficult, and there are only a handful of teams, a year later, that have completed the trifecta, and here's the kicker: there is significant overlap between those teams.

Not a whisper of content being nerfed, not a mention of it anywhere, and it's been brought up over and over again.

Matthew_Galvanus

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Since I have been playing the game, coming up on 4 years now, zos has significantly nerfed content EXACTLY ONCE. They gave vHoF a tweak because the trial sucked and it had ridiculously low completion numbers.

When people were saying Bahsei hardmode was stupid difficult zos replied by nerfing a skill that people were using to cope with the absolutely massive amounts of incoming damage. Bahsei hardmode is still stupidly difficult, and there are only a handful of teams, a year later, that have completed the trifecta, and here's the kicker: there is significant overlap between those teams.

Not a whisper of content being nerfed, not a mention of it anywhere, and it's been brought up over and over again.

that's because they don't want to nerf content, they want to put bandages on gaping chest wounds and pretend that it's helping. apparently having content that is essentially impossible for 99% of the playerbase to clear is what they consider to be fun and engaging, and anything that interferes with that gets gutted almost right away.

sbr32

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

They have never done this and haven't given any indication that they are going to start now.

kringled_1

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Since I have been playing the game, coming up on 4 years now, zos has significantly nerfed content EXACTLY ONCE. They gave vHoF a tweak because the trial sucked and it had ridiculously low completion numbers.

When people were saying Bahsei hardmode was stupid difficult zos replied by nerfing a skill that people were using to cope with the absolutely massive amounts of incoming damage. Bahsei hardmode is still stupidly difficult, and there are only a handful of teams, a year later, that have completed the trifecta, and here's the kicker: there is significant overlap between those teams.

Not a whisper of content being nerfed, not a mention of it anywhere, and it's been brought up over and over again.

To be fair, they did also substantially nerf the dot from Deaths touch. Not trying to take away from your overall point though.

Mr_Stach

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

dskrulz wrote: »

Everything you say guys comes down to one thing: Reducing the difficulty of end-game content, then it's all proportional again - only difference being you can achieve everything with less DPS, which will make the whole experience much more friendly and much less stressful.

Since I have been playing the game, coming up on 4 years now, zos has significantly nerfed content EXACTLY ONCE. They gave vHoF a tweak because the trial sucked and it had ridiculously low completion numbers.

When people were saying Bahsei hardmode was stupid difficult zos replied by nerfing a skill that people were using to cope with the absolutely massive amounts of incoming damage. Bahsei hardmode is still stupidly difficult, and there are only a handful of teams, a year later, that have completed the trifecta, and here's the kicker: there is significant overlap between those teams.

Not a whisper of content being nerfed, not a mention of it anywhere, and it's been brought up over and over again.

So in the end, you cannot achieve everything with less dps. And this is making everything much less more stressful.

Arthtur

Last time i checked u still had to use 1 skill per second. Where exactly they made rotations easier? They just made it more boring.

I rly dont get what ppl see in those patch notes. There is not a single thing that helps anyone. Like if someone have problems with using 1 skill per second he will be nerfed even harder because DoTs will be weaker...

Firstmep

Arthtur wrote: »

Last time i checked u still had to use 1 skill per second. Where exactly they made rotations easier? They just made it more boring.

I rly dont get what ppl see in those patch notes. There is not a single thing that helps anyone. Like if someone have problems with using 1 skill per second he will be nerfed even harder because DoTs will be weaker...

The concept is/was that longer dots mean ppl dont have to pay attention to their timers as much and can focus on mechanics more instead.
Ofc they couldve just as easily reworked the ui or made it easier to track dots/hots, but that wouldn't spreatsheet crunching so.. oh well.