Thank you ZOS for putting an end to the Parsing Race and keeping the premise of the game!

Sync01

Casdha wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

I think most understand. The same could be said for anyone who can't argue a point without using the word "Parse".

I personally come here to play a video game and escape to a different world for a little while, not to calculate numbers to make sure I hit both bonuses on a game of Yatzee. To me keeping up with numbers and doing parses takes all of the magic (pardon the pun) out of the game.

So you're saying you're against optimisation because you're not interested in doing content that requires it?
That doesn't explain why you would be against it in the first place.

mpicklesster

This thread was started by a 4-day old account? Interesting...

Sync01

mpicklesster wrote: »

This thread was started by a 4-day old account? Interesting...

Not sure why it would be, accounts on the forum are separate. I created my forum account after the post about the u35 battle changes, but I've still played the game for years.

unholy_nox

Looks like someone doesn't have deep knowledge on in-game mechanics.

Mr_Stach

Sync01 wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

This thread was started by a 4-day old account? Interesting...

Not sure why it would be, accounts on the forum are separate. I created my forum account after the post about the u35 battle changes, but I've still played the game for years.

My original forum invite was in 2015 and in French for some reason..... I ended up losing that invite and joined the Forums last patch, I feel like I've made up for list time though.

mpicklesster

Sync01 wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

This thread was started by a 4-day old account? Interesting...

Not sure why it would be, accounts on the forum are separate. I created my forum account after the post about the u35 battle changes, but I've still played the game for years.

I agree it's entirely possible that the OP made their account for the same impetus as you: U35 provoked an impassioned response and they decided to make a forum account and say something about it.

It's also entirely possible that OP impulsively made a burner account so they could make a trolly, half-baked post. (It's a common troll tactic on many forum sites).

Given OP's inflammatory, half-baked statements and loose grasp on grammar and punctuation, I'm inclined to believe OP's motives were the latter; not the former.

Casdha

Sync01 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

I think most understand. The same could be said for anyone who can't argue a point without using the word "Parse".

I personally come here to play a video game and escape to a different world for a little while, not to calculate numbers to make sure I hit both bonuses on a game of Yatzee. To me keeping up with numbers and doing parses takes all of the magic (pardon the pun) out of the game.

So you're saying you're against optimisation because you're not interested in doing content that requires it?
That doesn't explain why you would be against it in the first place.

I have nothing against optimizations, but ZOS is going to what they are going to do and If I continued to care I wouldn't be here right now. Heck if I think about it, I'm still ticked off by dropping the sub requirement, the whole idea of Chapters vs DLC, Nerfing all of crafting for the sake of I don't like spending my time doing that content it takes to long argument, Crown Crates, Group locked year long story content and yes the never ending number tweaking and resultant meta chasing. How do I get over it, see previous post.

edit: as far as character optimizations go, I do optimize, just not like everyone else. I consider mine a DPS/Tank Hybrid built specifically for playing solo but is able to help out and be useful if the need arises for a fill in when I'm online. The only reason i can't truly tank with him is because he has no taunt. I did use him to tank on White Gold Tower once when we didn't have a tank available and I only died on the last boss once because I had never seen it before. Also he is only good on DPS with multiple targets but he drops to nothing when I have to sustain and keep healthy for long periods of time. I Soloed Vet Arx Corinium on the last PTS patch to see how it affected my build and it was not much at all.

IrishOphidia

dskrulz wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the across the board damage nerfs will force even more people to play meta.
Maelstrom destro is going to be mandatory on every dd, regardless of class or spec.
The number of viable builds is also going down.
Zos haven't adjusted any of the content, so you still need to reach the same numbers as before, it is just going to be harder now.

I don't "Need" to reach anything my friend, that what the post was all about. I'm not doing Arenas and Trials, because being a META does not appeal to me. ZOS *will* adjust the content as I said, and then and only then I will do Arenas and Trials - when it does not demand a META build everyone's using.
So considering that, if the META is being weakened, the logic says that there will be a bigger chunk of players who will not try to be a META, as it is not as useful as it used to be, and they will start create their own builds, better learning their playstyle instead of a blind-follow High-end players, and finally be available to enjoy all the rest - and the MAJORITY - of the content (exploration, quests and story, dungeons and everything that is basically the common ground achievable by all players).

When you stop the race - the horses can rest. Let us all enjoy and experience all the aspects of the game, not just its competitive side, which is totally fine by itself, but again - not when there's an absolute need to be a part of it to be considered a "good/strong player". I'm considering myself good and strong player even though I don't to Arenas/Trials. Others, I believe, are not so lucky, and their mindset will not change if META is the only thing they can see and "Need" to reach.

I hate to break it to you, bud, but ESO and every MMO created will ALWAYS have a META. It doesn't matter how much people cry and complain about a META. There will always be one. It's literally unavoidable. One aspect of combat will ALWAYS outperform another. One set will ALWAYS outperform another. It looks like you'll never be doing trials. There will ALWAYS be a parse race. People will ALWAYS try to out play someone else. You see the trend here. Your entire take on the matter is rendered moot by the simple fact that what you're suggesting is impossible.

Soarora

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

Personally, I don't like following the meta all that much and I never have, yet always have been aware what meta means... and how often it gets targeted with nerfs causing people to change large portions of their setups repeatedly. I don't find it fun when everyone uses almost the same exact builds either and I find it even less fun when people give me advice--when I ask for it and when I don't--that just tells me to switch to the meta... which has happened multiple times. Only venturing into vet trials taught me how important the meta is and made me calm down a lot... everyone should play how they want even if it's using very similar builds. I still don't like it, but I don't think hate towards endgamers is warranted either. That's my perspective, hope it helps explain the mindset.

Sync01

Soarora wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

Personally, I don't like following the meta all that much and I never have, yet always have been aware what meta means... and how often it gets targeted with nerfs causing people to change large portions of their setups repeatedly. I don't find it fun when everyone uses almost the same exact builds either and I find it even less fun when people give me advice--when I ask for it and when I don't--that just tells me to switch to the meta... which has happened multiple times. Only venturing into vet trials taught me how important the meta is and made me calm down a lot... everyone should play how they want even if it's using very similar builds. I still don't like it, but I don't think hate towards endgamers is warranted either. That's my perspective, hope it helps explain the mindset.

That's a good response, and I do get that some people want to use whatever sets or skills they like but if you want to do harder trials you have to make sure that the sets and buffs work for the group. If you're not interested in doing that sort of content then you don't have to optimise for it.

I have however seen plenty of people, some in this thread, that talk about meta in a way that really does make me think they don't understand what it is.

Destyran

This seems like toxic attention seeking or high level trolling

Soarora

Sync01 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

Personally, I don't like following the meta all that much and I never have, yet always have been aware what meta means... and how often it gets targeted with nerfs causing people to change large portions of their setups repeatedly. I don't find it fun when everyone uses almost the same exact builds either and I find it even less fun when people give me advice--when I ask for it and when I don't--that just tells me to switch to the meta... which has happened multiple times. Only venturing into vet trials taught me how important the meta is and made me calm down a lot... everyone should play how they want even if it's using very similar builds. I still don't like it, but I don't think hate towards endgamers is warranted either. That's my perspective, hope it helps explain the mindset.

That's a good response, and I do get that some people want to use whatever sets or skills they like but if you want to do harder trials you have to make sure that the sets and buffs work for the group. If you're not interested in doing that sort of content then you don't have to optimise for it.

The glory of support dps... an excuse for wearing different sets than others ahhaha. For the most part I think more of healers and tanks with worrying about sets and buffs for each group but to circle back to a post I made earlier in this thread and once again point the discussion towards OP's post, what is possible for a DPS to use in vet content is narrowing towards only meta. Off-full-meta builds that made the benchmarks for vet and vet HM no longer do on PTS, especially when considering the dummy buffs from the patch notes (of course for trial trifectas and any scorepushing all meta seems necessary). I think it important to mention with the context here on my view of meta that I see no way for me to continue on post U35 in vet content unless I go full meta. I will be doing this, but I see a big storm coming as more people may have to deal with the conflict between using meta, content, and zos claiming the update will bring some people up when it really will just bring almost everyone down.

Sync01 wrote: »

I have however seen plenty of people, some in this thread, that talk about meta in a way that really does make me think they don't understand what it is.

I think the dislike of meta and endgamers based on perceived toxicity just blur together into a ball of who knows what's going on anymore, but that's just a guess.

francesinhalover

Rotations are harder now that aoes have random durations and the rest 20.

Endless hail has 15 sec gl using that with a 20 sec dot.
Same for wall of elements and other 15sec dots

Asphyxis

Well, you said you are casual so why would you care about DPS changes? You are not in the parsing race. Every content in this game can be done without enormous group DPS, even trifectas. Of course people don't like weaving changes but the main part which people mostly complain is skill changes. ESO is different because of it's combat, and now they are trying to change it, making the DOT timers double. That means you will use your spammable much more which makes the fight dull. Having more casual players doesn't mean you can ruin endgame players' experience. There will still be a skill gap between the players because weaving will still exist but why trying to reduce it? What's the point of endgame then? It's like nerfing a trial too much so more people can get the trifecta, if everyone can do it easily what's the point of hardmode content then? Like I said, every content in this game can be done without high DPS, they nerfed trials too much. Endgame players don't even care about title or title amount, only important thing for them is scores and they want to have fun while doing it of course but ZOS says no. Too many endgame groups disbanded because of latest changes, they wanted to enjoy the game but they couldn't. No competition at all right now, only 2 groups from remaining endgame community can actually achieve high scores in the game. It was much more before. I don't understand why casuals hate endgame players.

Amottica

This update does not end any DPS race. The top players will still be the top players and the lower DPS producers will still be producing the lower numbers and for many, it will be even lower than it is now.

Further, Zenimax is the very reason why the top end of DPS has continued to increase over time, every year. So going forward, there is every reason this will continue to happen, and the top players benefit most. I say this second part because it is how the game has been over the years, and since the same people are designing the game, there is no reason to expect anything to change other than a road bump.

BTW, Morrowind changes were intended to lower the ceiling and raise the floor of DPS in the game. It did quite the opposite. That is a great example that demonstrates what I have said here is likely going to be the case in the long run.

FlamingBeard

Without competitive endgamers carrying the popularity of raids and PvP, both of those content areas would have died out years ago. Casual players have no clue how stats and builds work and have to seek those endgamers out to learn, but many of those experienced players have left and the rest are getting ready to.

ZOS has made it clear that ESO is a game balanced from on excel statistics with no real gameplay context, which is fine for a mobile game with barely any staff but this is a multi-million dollar studio owned by far wealthier parent companies.

Stop giving them money.

Stamicka

The game is all yours. Have fun out there.

Lady_Galadhiel

Destyran wrote: »

This seems like toxic attention seeking or high level trolling

I woud guess the second one.

Jazraena

Sync01 wrote: »

The more I read on the forum, the more I'm convinced that players who are against the meta, do not understand what meta actually is. A meta build is simply a build made with knowledge about builds. Essentially it's whatever is the most optimal at the time... so the gear, skills, classes and tactics that will give you the best chance at completing the content.

It makes no sense to be "against meta".

It absolutely does! Power Fantasy.

The thing in PvE is that you don't need to be optimal, you just need to be viable. Many people thus optimize within a power fantasy theme or just with what's fun instead of the most optimal solution.

The problem with a general DPS nerf is however that these builds are far more likely to drop beneath the 'viable' boundary, and thus people are pushed closer to meta again, reducing build diversity.

Riptide

Jazraena wrote: »

It absolutely does! Power Fantasy.

The thing in PvE is that you don't need to be optimal, you just need to be viable. Many people thus optimize within a power fantasy theme or just with what's fun instead of the most optimal solution.

The problem with a general DPS nerf is however that these builds are far more likely to drop beneath the 'viable' boundary, and thus people are pushed closer to meta again, reducing build diversity.

You have stated in other threads that you do not do trials. Of course meta is not needed dungeon content, you can manage suboptimal setups in vet hard modes there, and of course anything below that. Certainly no one is intimating that anyone chase down the meta for the primary purpose of doing delves, normal dungeons, or roleplaying.

Life is short, so lets be perfectly clear - the content that requires everyone be performing optimally is trials. Veteran trials. Particularly hardmodes and trifectas. Competitive PVP.

There is no movement to push the meta onto people not engaged in these rigorous activities, and a manufactured debate that presumes that there is the very definition of a waste of time. As is building some sort of “us” vs “them” mentality where one might pretend to themselves that there are a section of players who give a second thought to what people want to build and wear doing quests. They don’t.

Clearly it is primarily 12 person content at a difficulty level that requires every person contribute everything possible to achieve victory, rather than ragged wipe after ragged wipe after ragged wipe.

People who engage in these activities understand full well what is required, and what isn’t for less rigorous activities - because we also participate in them. You don’t raid every hour of play.

Folks that do not participate in difficult, progression trials however must needs estimate the landscape.

And I include the development team, who, like you, do not meaningfully engage in these activities. And rather than listen to those that do, there is this strange fixation on the meta and some perceived elitism. It has nothing to do with that and every bit to do with having experienced the content.

Most effective tactics available only come into play in situations where it is truly necessary, and there absolutely are areas where it is.

It is a very, very simple three part solution to the current upheaval.

To make content more accessible - tweak the content.

To address power creep - stop introducing items and sets responsible for power creep.

To reduce attrition and community angst - stop trying to solve these self induced problems by creating comprehensive, cascading new ones in the form of unrelated, sweeping combat overhauls.

Jazraena

Riptide wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

It absolutely does! Power Fantasy.

The thing in PvE is that you don't need to be optimal, you just need to be viable. Many people thus optimize within a power fantasy theme or just with what's fun instead of the most optimal solution.

The problem with a general DPS nerf is however that these builds are far more likely to drop beneath the 'viable' boundary, and thus people are pushed closer to meta again, reducing build diversity.

You have stated in other threads that you do not do trials. Of course meta is not needed dungeon content, you can manage suboptimal setups in vet hard modes there, and of course anything below that. Certainly no one is intimating that anyone chase down the meta for the primary purpose of doing delves, normal dungeons, or roleplaying.

Life is short, so lets be perfectly clear - the content that requires everyone be performing optimally is trials. Veteran trials. Particularly hardmodes and trifectas. Competitive PVP.

There is no movement to push the meta onto people not engaged in these rigorous activities, and a manufactured debate that presumes that there is the very definition of a waste of time. As is building some sort of “us” vs “them” mentality where one might pretend to themselves that there are a section of players who give a second thought to what people want to build and wear doing quests. They don’t.

Clearly it is primarily 12 person content at a difficulty level that requires every person contribute everything possible to achieve victory, rather than ragged wipe after ragged wipe after ragged wipe.

People who engage in these activities understand full well what is required, and what isn’t for less rigorous activities - because we also participate in them. You don’t raid every hour of play.

Folks that do not participate in difficult, progression trials however must needs estimate the landscape.

And I include the development team, who, like you, do not meaningfully engage in these activities. And rather than listen to those that do, there is this strange fixation on the meta and some perceived elitism. It has nothing to do with that and every bit to do with having experienced the content.

Most effective tactics available only come into play in situations where it is truly necessary, and there absolutely are areas where it is.

It is a very, very simple three part solution to the current upheaval.

To make content more accessible - tweak the content.

To address power creep - stop introducing items and sets responsible for power creep.

To reduce attrition and community angst - stop trying to solve these self induced problems by creating comprehensive, cascading new ones in the form of unrelated, sweeping combat overhauls.

I do trials, if rarely, but yes, absolutely, I am aware! But content below Vet Trials still has a minimum viability boundary, especially things like Vet DLC HMs, and people, misguided as it is, still tell other people to follow the meta. Bizarre, but a reality, though why I cannot fathom. Those people do not tend to be actual endgame raiders themselves however, in my experience, so I personally don't understand hostility towards said endgame raiders.

And either way, changes affect people below trial level, often unduly so.It doesn't really matter below which viability levels you're being pushed. I'm dead certain that a few people I run Vet DLC Dungeons with now and then won't be able to manage now.

And frankly, that thematic and optimal builds are so far apart speaks to a design problem IMHO - play as you want, but only like we want or you'll suck.

Matthew_Galvanus

mpicklesster wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

This thread was started by a 4-day old account? Interesting...

Not sure why it would be, accounts on the forum are separate. I created my forum account after the post about the u35 battle changes, but I've still played the game for years.

I agree it's entirely possible that the OP made their account for the same impetus as you: U35 provoked an impassioned response and they decided to make a forum account and say something about it.

It's also entirely possible that OP impulsively made a burner account so they could make a trolly, half-baked post. (It's a common troll tactic on many forum sites).

Given OP's inflammatory, half-baked statements and loose grasp on grammar and punctuation, I'm inclined to believe OP's motives were the latter; not the former.

there's another option. like i said before "conspiracies and malicious misinformation" won't let me get into specifics, but if you think about who would be the most likely to defend this update, it speaks for itself. especially given the uh deafening silence.

Casdha

Riptide wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

It absolutely does! Power Fantasy.

The thing in PvE is that you don't need to be optimal, you just need to be viable. Many people thus optimize within a power fantasy theme or just with what's fun instead of the most optimal solution.

The problem with a general DPS nerf is however that these builds are far more likely to drop beneath the 'viable' boundary, and thus people are pushed closer to meta again, reducing build diversity.

You have stated in other threads that you do not do trials. Of course meta is not needed dungeon content, you can manage suboptimal setups in vet hard modes there, and of course anything below that. Certainly no one is intimating that anyone chase down the meta for the primary purpose of doing delves, normal dungeons, or roleplaying.

Life is short, so lets be perfectly clear - the content that requires everyone be performing optimally is trials. Veteran trials. Particularly hardmodes and trifectas. Competitive PVP.

There is no movement to push the meta onto people not engaged in these rigorous activities, and a manufactured debate that presumes that there is the very definition of a waste of time. As is building some sort of “us” vs “them” mentality where one might pretend to themselves that there are a section of players who give a second thought to what people want to build and wear doing quests. They don’t.

Clearly it is primarily 12 person content at a difficulty level that requires every person contribute everything possible to achieve victory, rather than ragged wipe after ragged wipe after ragged wipe.

People who engage in these activities understand full well what is required, and what isn’t for less rigorous activities - because we also participate in them. You don’t raid every hour of play.

Folks that do not participate in difficult, progression trials however must needs estimate the landscape.

And I include the development team, who, like you, do not meaningfully engage in these activities. And rather than listen to those that do, there is this strange fixation on the meta and some perceived elitism. It has nothing to do with that and every bit to do with having experienced the content.

Most effective tactics available only come into play in situations where it is truly necessary, and there absolutely are areas where it is.

It is a very, very simple three part solution to the current upheaval.

To make content more accessible - tweak the content.

To address power creep - stop introducing items and sets responsible for power creep.

To reduce attrition and community angst - stop trying to solve these self induced problems by creating comprehensive, cascading new ones in the form of unrelated, sweeping combat overhauls.

I don't disagree with any of this, I believe the only difference is that I gave up a long time ago. Once they changed the leveling system and buffed experience, introduced XP boosters and shared experience between characters (@ lvl 50+), started selling skill points copies for cash,,,well the whole idea of getting better just seemed to be cheapened to me. All that time I spent leveling up for the first year+ can now be done literally in a weekend. So I just play for story now with the occasional romp in the hard stuff with friends, not because I don't like it but, because I don't have the time nor any resemblance of remaining desire to follow changes and be optimal and therefore not a burden on anyone I might play with. Now I build for myself.

I don't hate on Meta builds, I dislike the fact that folks are encouraged to copy them rather than coming up with their own version of Meta. I can't count how many times I've read so and so streamer makes this and you should use it statements. People wont be mad at these changes anymore when the handful of people who come up with these builds come up with replacements for the umpteenth time, especially if it turns out they are better than before. Me, I continue along unaffected by these changes, at least for now. The last time I changed sets on my main was when New Moons came out and I only have one or two characters that use earned sets but I rarely play them anymore.

Whiskey_JG

It's good that you posted this thread because it highlights a few issues that we the end game players have been talking about for some time. Please dont take offense at anything I say as they are not meant as a personal attack.

1) If you as a player are not interested in vet Arenas/Dungeons/Trials, then the patch changes should not affect you at all. You can continue to enjoy overland content, furnishing, tales of tribute and all the other aspects of the game. So if vet content does not interest you, your post is already irrelevant...since you do not feel the need to improve on combat.

2) If however, you are interested in vet Arenas/Dungeons/Trials then you really do not understand how the game works. Don't take this personally, I blame the game since it does not do a good job of explaining combat optimization. I know the game is marketed as "play how you want" but in practice that statement does not hold water. Yes, you can clear vet Maelstrom arena wearing Julianos and Knighmare sets, but you would be making the Arena a LOT harder to clear. So I personally do not subscribe to the mantra of "play how you like", the CONTENT sets the bar for you.

3) Which leads me to the third point of META. Meta is somehow misrepresented as something that end game players come up with as a minimum standard and is often associated with toxicity. This is not the case at ALL. The META is set by Zos and is relative to the content you are trying to clear.
META tries to answer a fundamental question: "How can I set myself up so that I can clear this content in the most efficient manner?"
So in reality although there will always be 1 meta for each patch (per content) there are several stages in arriving at that meta. In fact many end game players will often suggest multiple setups that would be very close to each other.

4) Parsing.......this is a tough one to deal with. The combat system of the game is very engaging and in order to extract the max possible dps, yes you do need some practice. To the end game players it is a competition that motivates many players but in reality you dont need a bucket load of dps to clear most content. As referred to in point (2) the Content sets the bar for you. So if you want to clear vAA for example, you only need around 40-60k to clear it, but vRG is a totally different ballgame. Therefore, the parsing requirement is not set by the endgame community, but by the DEVS themselves. As long as the content is ridiculously hard to clear, the requirement to improve via parsing will remain.

5) Update 35 changes - the issue we have with update 35 has nothing to do with your post. You have totally misrepresented our concerns. The issue is simple, the CONTENT is still HARD, but our damage has been nerfed. So explain to me, how someone that struggles to play with a condition such as yours, how this update has made veteran content more accessible to you? The content you couldn't clear on live will be even harder.

Furthermore, dps is not everything in this game. Toxic casuals seem to make a mega fuss over this when in reality its not that big. The combat system in ESO is unique in the fact that group optimization is very flexible and low dps of one player can be worked around. I can refer to one of progs from last year, we had an elderly person in the group. He was barely able to output more than 40k dps but he turned out to be an excellent MK user which is a vital support role. You can still contribute to a group even with low dps, by expanding your skillset.

Agenericname

Casdha wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

It absolutely does! Power Fantasy.

The thing in PvE is that you don't need to be optimal, you just need to be viable. Many people thus optimize within a power fantasy theme or just with what's fun instead of the most optimal solution.

The problem with a general DPS nerf is however that these builds are far more likely to drop beneath the 'viable' boundary, and thus people are pushed closer to meta again, reducing build diversity.

You have stated in other threads that you do not do trials. Of course meta is not needed dungeon content, you can manage suboptimal setups in vet hard modes there, and of course anything below that. Certainly no one is intimating that anyone chase down the meta for the primary purpose of doing delves, normal dungeons, or roleplaying.

Life is short, so lets be perfectly clear - the content that requires everyone be performing optimally is trials. Veteran trials. Particularly hardmodes and trifectas. Competitive PVP.

There is no movement to push the meta onto people not engaged in these rigorous activities, and a manufactured debate that presumes that there is the very definition of a waste of time. As is building some sort of “us” vs “them” mentality where one might pretend to themselves that there are a section of players who give a second thought to what people want to build and wear doing quests. They don’t.

Clearly it is primarily 12 person content at a difficulty level that requires every person contribute everything possible to achieve victory, rather than ragged wipe after ragged wipe after ragged wipe.

People who engage in these activities understand full well what is required, and what isn’t for less rigorous activities - because we also participate in them. You don’t raid every hour of play.

Folks that do not participate in difficult, progression trials however must needs estimate the landscape.

And I include the development team, who, like you, do not meaningfully engage in these activities. And rather than listen to those that do, there is this strange fixation on the meta and some perceived elitism. It has nothing to do with that and every bit to do with having experienced the content.

Most effective tactics available only come into play in situations where it is truly necessary, and there absolutely are areas where it is.

It is a very, very simple three part solution to the current upheaval.

To make content more accessible - tweak the content.

To address power creep - stop introducing items and sets responsible for power creep.

To reduce attrition and community angst - stop trying to solve these self induced problems by creating comprehensive, cascading new ones in the form of unrelated, sweeping combat overhauls.

I don't disagree with any of this, I believe the only difference is that I gave up a long time ago. Once they changed the leveling system and buffed experience, introduced XP boosters and shared experience between characters (@ lvl 50+), started selling skill points copies for cash,,,well the whole idea of getting better just seemed to be cheapened to me. All that time I spent leveling up for the first year+ can now be done literally in a weekend. So I just play for story now with the occasional romp in the hard stuff with friends, not because I don't like it but, because I don't have the time nor any resemblance of remaining desire to follow changes and be optimal and therefore not a burden on anyone I might play with. Now I build for myself.

I don't hate on Meta builds, I dislike the fact that folks are encouraged to copy them rather than coming up with their own version of Meta. I can't count how many times I've read so and so streamer makes this and you should use it statements. People wont be mad at these changes anymore when the handful of people who come up with these builds come up with replacements for the umpteenth time, especially if it turns out they are better than before. Me, I continue along unaffected by these changes, at least for now. The last time I changed sets on my main was when New Moons came out and I only have one or two characters that use earned sets but I rarely play them anymore.

I dont think the bolded statement is universally true. Sure, there are some who only care about the numbers. Assuming a new build or builds replace the old and people parse higher some of the complaints will die down, but certainly not all.

This patch doesnt address how the power creep and the gap got here in the first place and thus isnt going to remove them. That means more changes are coming. More change fatigue. More of all the worst parts of patch notes.

Putting the power into the sets themselves is why this gap is high as it is. Sets like Relequen, for example, that gives a high APM player not only damage from the light attacks but also bonus damage integrated into the set. The disparity between someone who can and cant weave well when wearing sets like those is compounded. When you have sets that pull ahead so far, sets with extended buff duration times that enhance the effectiveness of well optimized groups then people will naturally gravitate toward them.

If build diversity and "play how you want" were the goals, in which case the quote is completely out of context anyway, then making the sets themselves less critical in the builders choice would open up more diversity and accessibility than u35 will.

Its actually something that I felt like ZOS was doing a decent job with. Its refreshing to hear a streamer explaining a build and then be able to give options for players who werent able to weave well. Pillars of Nirn, War Maindens, deadly all come to mind. I feel like build diversity was at its peak a patch ago (maybe two) when you could wear a set or sets that werent as dependent on weaving or heavy group optimization and still produce enough damage to clear difficult content.

The bigger hurdle with this seems to be groups ask for certain things. Sometimes theyre reasonable, sometimes theyre not. Its their choice though. ZOS cant change that. More players were able to clear content. They may be excluded from some groups, but they were able to clear it just the same, they just dont all know it. It takes time to turn a big ship. It feels like it was going in a good direction. U35 feels like its removing power from those players and investing even more into a go meta or go home mindset.

Everest_Lionheart

Parsing is basically a mini game, but it remains a measuring stick among many endgame groups and a gateway to certain content.

Almost everyone putting up numbers in Rele + Kinras is switching out for something like Tzogvin and Bahsei or Tzogvin and Whorl. You must also take into account support DPS wearing totally different setups as well. Plus different skill bar setups where you may need a ward or a heal, or you may run a different spamable or utility skill than you do on the dummy.

My parsing setup and vCR3 portal setups on my DK are way different. My blade setup for IR looks nothing like the blade I parse with. Even my Necro parses with 2H backbar but still runs a staff backbar in content.

That’s what people seem to miss here. And clearly what the dev team missing. Content determines the load out. The buff sets fill the group DPS when you sacrifice individual power for survivability or utility. Look at the logs for Xalvakka HM which has a hard DPS check. You will find that less than 60 players are over 100K DPS on one of the hardest boss fights in the game. You will also find their skill and gear setup differs from the meta parse setup. Now here is the kicker, the two classes on the leaderboard can easily top 110K on the dummy in the hands of any solid endgame player, but since we are talking about leaderboards here these are the literal best of the best players and there aren’t even 60 that can hit those numbers on current live. Everyone on that list probably hits 130K+ on the dummy.

Everyone on that list spends more time perfecting that actual fight than parsing the actual dummy as well. That’s because they put in practice before and now it’s all tweaks when the meta or content shifts. By virtue of reps those players learn to nuance of each fight and when to maximize their DPS. Ultimates, dots, it’s all coordinated at an extremely high level, something the average or even above average groups will never quite understand. And despite all that coordination not one of those DPS on that list was able to match their dummy numbers.

Now with content that is already accessible to a tiny fraction of the players in the game how does anything in this update make a fight like this accessible to more players? The answer, it doesn’t. Players will be pushed back and struggle with content they have already cleared.

The key to clearing content is not dummy humping, it is reps, hours and hours of quality reps (too many hours in my opinion.) And with damage going down the quality reps are going to dry up.

VadimAleks

dskrulz wrote: »

people with Physical disabilities

definitely won't be happy with LA nerfs. Simply because they only needed 1 finger to play. Now (after the patch of course) they won't be able to do that.

IronWooshu

The OP speaks as if the meta was holding them back. Tons of guilds are out there that are not scoreboard chasing and will allow you to complete trials disability or not.

It's not like the game is holding you back, it's your unwillingness to try because you think meta matters when it only matters in scoreboard pushing and that doesn't keep you from completing trials.

Mr_Stach

IronWooshu wrote: »

The OP speaks as if the meta was holding them back. Tons of guilds are out there that are not scoreboard chasing and will allow you to complete trials disability or not.

It's not like the game is holding you back, it's your unwillingness to try because you think meta matters when it only matters in scoreboard pushing and that doesn't keep you from completing trials.

A lot of people look at "Meta" as something you wear. It's not. It's a mindset. "I will do whatever is necessary to succeed" that's all the Meta is. Sometimes that's using a powerful set or playing a specific class. "Off-Meta" is just finding an alternative path to success. It's less effective, but possible. This patch is making the Off-Meta less effective. The Meta will always be established because it's a mindset.

But the Off-Meta, whooo boy that's where things are going to hurt a lot more, people aren't going to be able to "play how they want" because they will not clear harder content.

MEBengalsFan2001

Best way to reduce the difference between top end players and mid tier is simply adjust cooldown and how attacks flow. This has been done in other games where weaving was common to the point where weaving has been eliminated. Players simply adjusted to the changes. Is there a difference between top end players and bottom players; yes usually due from skills and understanding rotations, content mechanics, etc...

This update is the first change IMO to weaving. Next will be some additional change making light attack weaving obsolete.