Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

Necrotech_Master

<snipped remove quote>

most of my best dps toons are all stam based

and i hate playing mag toons in pvp because of negates

Elsonso

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome. Finally, thank you all for your patience and time in helping up improve upon these areas. May your roads lead to warm sands.

There is one important thing about ESO that cannot be calculated with spreadsheets. It's the game's community. ESO has one of the best mmo communities, and for many people (myself included) it's one of its biggest selling points.This patch is incredibly destructive for this community. I'm not sure if ESO community can recover if this patch goes live, we're already losing a lot of experienced players.

Nefas was talking about this on his stream this week. I agree. It must be hard to keep a player community together during times like these.

ZOS_Kevin

Elsonso wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin ... I hesitate to ask this, but any chance that there will be another update with thoughts from the Combat Team before we exit PTS?

We have another update located here.

rbfrgsp

I don't really have time to read through all of this. Can someone give a short explanation of what existing problem these changes will fix?

Necrotech_Master

rbfrgsp wrote: »

I don't really have time to read through all of this. Can someone give a short explanation of what existing problem these changes will fix?

zos: these changes will lower the ceiling, raise the floor, make rotations easier

players: these changes nerf everyone (but hurt the floor worse) and make rotations boring/more complicated, and nobody asked for them

kind of that in a nutshell from what i can tell lol

and now they are basically reverting half of their changes, so everything is still going to be a mess in week 4 PTS with about 4 more weeks till it hits live

renne

notyuu wrote: »

(before you ask why live UI looks different, I use pixel perfect to make is more readable to my half-blind self)
Same character, same gear, same CP, same Stats
So eaither something has gone very, very wrong with the PTS calculations on tooltips and skills or Zos has lost the plot

Yes, you might look at the live stats and think "that's op af" and you'd be right, it is, so one of the nerfs (hit count or damage) would be fine, but it's also the only piece of the toolkit stamplar has to do damage with, hence why I pushed it about as far as possible

This should not be collapsed and hidden away behind a spoiler tag.

iPeriphery

*This post is not meant to be taken with hostility or harassment towards ZoS. This is just the cold hard truth.

I've been playing since beta and have seen this happen TIME and TIME AGAIN.

You can only continue alienating and berating your player base for so long before they leave. Nobody asked for ANY of these HORRIBLE changes.

Unless you completely scrap U35, you won't have a game left to make money from.

WAKE UP ZOS! Before it's too late, and honestly it might already be. If update 35 goes live this game will be just as dead as New World.

What about GUTTING every single class, and their class identity is fun? We play this game to have FUN, not be stressed by having the rug pulled from underneath us every 3-6 months.

Stop trying to balance the game around the top 1% of Raiders and start balancing PVE and PVP seperately.

Who cares if the TOP 1% are so good at the game that they are pulling huge DPS? Obviously they put the time and effort into gaining that skill, and that is deserved and should be rewarded. It literally effects NOBODY else.

If you are trying to make the game more ACCESSIBLE then why in the bloodyhell are you NERFING EVERYONE ACROSS THE BOARD? Especially INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED changes like Nerfing the whole Sorcerer class because of 1 busted set like Savage WW OR an even better example, nerfing twisted path for NB's because you have this obsession with making EVERYTHING standardized and homogenized.

Making every class the same except for maybe 2 or 3 abilities is SO SO SO BORING. Stop ruining what was unique about the game. The original combat team was on the right path and had an actual vision that was fun. This game has turned into a bastardization of it's former glory.

Stop trying to come at this with a spreadsheet and math mentality.... Spreadsheets and data CANNOT DETERMINE WHAT IS FUN OR ENJOYABLE FOR YOUR PLAYERBASE, and sure as hell will NOT keep your customers happy. How about you actually play the game yourself instead? Because it's pretty obvious that you don't. It's kind of sad how fast the player base can see the glaring issues in what you guy propose every single time there is a patch like this, yet you guys can't after 8 years of repeated failure.

ZoS, I love you guys for making my favorite game of all time, but it's seriously time for you to get a reality check; because if this patch goes through you won't have a job for much longer.

Mark my words, Update 35 will be the beginning of the end for ESO; and it will be a worse disaster than Warlords of Drenor for WoW, or the dumpster fire that was New World.

anvilbert

In case YOU ZOS don't understand this but anecdotal feedback is data. It is your clientele and their opinion of how this PRODUCT that we purchase with our hard earned money pay YOUR salary. If YOU as a product producer DO NOT listen to what WE tell you we won't buy it. ITS THAT SIMPLE. I play this game for enjoyment and relaxation. IT IS NOT MY JOB. Stop trying to balance pve because of pvp.....
separate the two parts. This game is unique I love what has been created,but you are destroying it. MILLIONS OF PLAYERS= MILLIONS OF DOLLARS,ZERO PLAYERS =ZERO DOLLARS. DATA FOR YOUR SPREAD SHEETS. TRASH THIS UPDATE COMPLETLY AND STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS A GENERIC GAME.

anvilbert

Incidentally I am intelligent enough to read your patch notes and derive from there how these changes are going to affect me. By you requiring video and numbers and spread sheets to determine this is very insulting in itself to the players of your game

Hurbster

I'm sure they will take all our concerns into account, just like they did with AwA...

Jazraena

AwA was significantly less onesided in reception than U35.

Elsonso

Jazraena wrote: »

AwA was significantly less onesided in reception than U35.

Yeah, with AwA they only pissed off half the community rather than 80%. Acceptable losses.

Jazraena

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

Sandman929

Jazraena wrote: »

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

I care so little about AwA that I had to look up what AwA stands for

gariondavey

iPeriphery wrote: »

*This post is not meant to be taken with hostility or harassment towards ZoS. This is just the cold hard truth.

I've been playing since beta and have seen this happen TIME and TIME AGAIN.

You can only continue alienating and berating your player base for so long before they leave. Nobody asked for ANY of these HORRIBLE changes.

Unless you completely scrap U35, you won't have a game left to make money from.

WAKE UP ZOS! Before it's too late, and honestly it might already be. If update 35 goes live this game will be just as dead as New World.

What about GUTTING every single class, and their class identity is fun? We play this game to have FUN, not be stressed by having the rug pulled from underneath us every 3-6 months.

Stop trying to balance the game around the top 1% of Raiders and start balancing PVE and PVP seperately.

Who cares if the TOP 1% are so good at the game that they are pulling huge DPS? Obviously they put the time and effort into gaining that skill, and that is deserved and should be rewarded. It literally effects NOBODY else.

If you are trying to make the game more ACCESSIBLE then why in the bloodyhell are you NERFING EVERYONE ACROSS THE BOARD? Especially INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED changes like Nerfing the whole Sorcerer class because of 1 busted set like Savage WW OR an even better example, nerfing twisted path for NB's because you have this obsession with making EVERYTHING standardized and homogenized.

Making every class the same except for maybe 2 or 3 abilities is SO SO SO BORING. Stop ruining what was unique about the game. The original combat team was on the right path and had an actual vision that was fun. This game has turned into a bastardization of it's former glory.

Stop trying to come at this with a spreadsheet and math mentality.... Spreadsheets and data CANNOT DETERMINE WHAT IS FUN OR ENJOYABLE FOR YOUR PLAYERBASE, and sure as hell will NOT keep your customers happy. How about you actually play the game yourself instead? Because it's pretty obvious that you don't. It's kind of sad how fast the player base can see the glaring issues in what you guy propose every single time there is a patch like this, yet you guys can't after 8 years of repeated failure.

ZoS, I love you guys for making my favorite game of all time, but it's seriously time for you to get a reality check; because if this patch goes through you won't have a job for much longer.

Mark my words, Update 35 will be the beginning of the end for ESO; and it will be a worse disaster than Warlords of Drenor for WoW, or the dumpster fire that was New World.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Playnice

Nightblade feels less cool without the Consealed Weapon flank stun. That was many-a-nightblade's bread and butter cc. The removal of that stun option is also one step closer to getting pigeonholed to one play style.

Tandor

Jazraena wrote: »

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

Some actively welcomed the principle, but most of those who did so and provided feedback on the PTS didn't like the way it was implemented, the assumption having been that it would be either an additional system or a purely optional one, not one that would remove totally the character-based approach of the last 8 years. In the event, the jumbled mess that was implemented on the PTS was overwhelmingly criticised, as was the way that ZOS simply wouldn't engage over it.

Jazraena

Tandor wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

Some actively welcomed the principle, but most of those who did so and provided feedback on the PTS didn't like the way it was implemented, the assumption having been that it would be either an additional system or a purely optional one, not one that would remove totally the character-based approach of the last 8 years. In the event, the jumbled mess that was implemented on the PTS was overwhelmingly criticised, as was the way that ZOS simply wouldn't engage over it.

I could point to a few hundred people's worth of ESO communities that are still overwhelmingly positive towards AwA. Sorry, but it had a lot more people supporting it than you think.

Jaraal

Playnice wrote: »

Nightblade feels less cool without the Consealed Weapon flank stun. That was many-a-nightblade's bread and butter cc. The removal of that stun option is also one step closer to getting pigeonholed to one play style.

Removing the sneak speed bonus also nerfs my PvE thieves. Just a bad change overall.

Sandman929

Nocturnal’s Ploy: Increased the cooldown of this set to be 15 seconds, up from 2, to reduce the rate in which it can actively dispel effects from a target.

There is no cooldown that makes this ok. You've created a set that steal my gold used to buy potions and my resources used to craft them because it strips potions sourced buffs.
You've created a set that breaks how buffs work because it strips potion sourced buffs that cannot be reapplied due to potion cooldown timers.

THIS IS A BAD IDEA ON ANY COOLDOWN

Jaraal

Sandman929 wrote: »

You've created a set that steal my gold used to buy potions and my resources used to craft them because it strips potions sourced buffs.

I have good news!

Don't want to waste gold or mats on potions? You can buy them for real money in the crown store!

Tandor

Jazraena wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

Some actively welcomed the principle, but most of those who did so and provided feedback on the PTS didn't like the way it was implemented, the assumption having been that it would be either an additional system or a purely optional one, not one that would remove totally the character-based approach of the last 8 years. In the event, the jumbled mess that was implemented on the PTS was overwhelmingly criticised, as was the way that ZOS simply wouldn't engage over it.

I could point to a few hundred people's worth of ESO communities that are still overwhelmingly positive towards AwA. Sorry, but it had a lot more people supporting it than you think.

Please feel free to do so, after reading the 90 odd pages on the PTS forum which is where the feedback I referred to was concentrated.

Ragnarok0130

@ZOS_Gilliam these changes...all of them from PTS 1-now will not help the game and will hurt end game players in all activities. Please shelf this patch in its entirety and have your devs actually play PVE end game vet dungeons and trials with the real players on a regular consistent basis (even if under a smurf account) and then you'll understand how, and why we play the way we do and why exactly these changes are bad for our communities and why they've elicited such a dramatic level of push back from all areas of the communities.

Traditionally PVPers and PVEers are at one another's throats here on the forums but the situation is so dire that PVPers and PVEers are working together shoulder to shoulder to show you why these changes will hurt the game at large. That should tell the dev team a lot these proposed changes. And then there's the fact that 5 weeks of PTS testing is not enough for changes of this scope and magnitude. 5 weeks is fine for small incremental changes, but for completely re-doing the entire combat system it is not enough to see all of the follow on effects for changes and will in turn create far more vitriol and loss of trust than you've seen until this point with update 35 if they go live.

Power creep itself is not bad, in fact it directly lends itself to your stated goal of accessibility as more players will be able to complete older content which in turn gives them more confidence to actually learn how to run dungeons and raid and answer Craglorn looking for Tank/DPS/Healer adverts which will in turn make them better players in the long run able to run and complete current group content. Power creep allows new players to crawl/walk/run into end game content.

If you really want to raise the floor make dots stronger not weaker, make a real tutorial that describes game systems - both intended game systems like skills/weapons/armor vs roles and unintended game systems like light attack weaving. You can't patch class and role competency into the game but you can prep the battlefield to set new players up for success with robust explanations and tutorials so they don't look at us blankly when we tell them about things like LA weaving or that their play style and build from Skryim won't work for group content.

Arcanasx

Reposting this into feedback:

If you want to make heavy attack builds more viable for PvE,

Then start introducing NEW craftable sets that increase the damage of heavy attacks by a significant percentage but only against monsters. Because if you want heavy attack builds to be viable and more "accessible" for PvE, then its only reasonable that the other weapon types get something too; not only lightning heavy attacks that are recieving the largest benefit.

Stop butchering and making extreme changes to existing skills, buffs and sets so that their new niche function is to serve and cater only to PvE lightning and resto heavy attack builds, while screwing over other builds.

Having light and heavy attack bonus sets revert back to being flat damage modifiers is also not the right call. This creates issues between the different weapon types where some weapon types receive a much greater benefit than others. The extra weapon/spell damage bonus for light and heavy attacks ideally buffs all the weapon heavy attack types more evenly and makes it easier to balance.

If you also wanted to tone down one shot heavy attacks in PvP; you've already replaced molten armaments unique buff with empower so they can't be stacked, and you've already nerfed oakensouls damage as well.

You can also change these light and heavy attack buffs and prevent them from applying while out of combat, in stealth, and when invisible; to prevent the potential abuse when it comes to ganking, because the vast majority of complaints against heavy attack builds these days are the ones that are ganking.

You can even go further and reduce the time it takes for a fully charged heavy attack (especially inferno heavy's) and also reduce the damage done by the same percentage, so the DPS remains the same but you reduce the burst potential.

And seriously, what is the thought process of making the undaunted and noble duelist sets only work against monsters, yet allowing storm master (this is the set that inferno heavy attack gankers actually use and they pair it with sergeants) to still work against players?

ksbrugh

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings, everyone. We’d like to update you all on where we are at with the PTS feedback we have seen and our plans of action. Firstly, we would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to go through the changes and hop onto the PTS to get hands-on experience before submitting their feedback. The sheer amount of data and in-game application has helped us tremendously to hone in on the problem spaces that the larger sentiments have pointed out, and has also given us a better idea of how to isolate and tackle those problems. Let’s quickly go over the main themes we would like to improve on.

There are three main issues we would like to address with some targeted adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. These mainly pertain to Damage and Healing over Time effects, as we’ve found those have been the focus of the majority of conversations between all types of players. The first is the loss of reactive gameplay with ticking Area of Effect-based abilities, where delayed tick rates make them feel far less reactive to their surroundings and further punish their lack of mobility as such. The second is how the extension of durations on Area of Effect-based abilities actively harms their effectiveness since their power has been stretched out over a longer period, further increasing their risk of targets not staying in the area. The final is how ESO has always been a game about choice, and how global standards can over-define the reality of ability portrayal and can actively harm that idea. Now, let us go over what you are probably really here for – what we are doing to address these points.

We have taken considerable time to go through and better differentiate standards for Damage and Healing over Time effects based on the type of ability it is. In next week’s patch, abilities that stick to a target (such as Fiery Breath or Lightning Form) will retain their longer duration effects, where they take longer to deal damage at an increased rate per cast, but less per second than what’s currently on the Live servers (i.e., all public servers that are not the PTS). Meanwhile, abilities that are bound to a static area, such as Wall of Elements or Spear Shards, will have shorter durations (closer or identical to their current versions on the Live servers) and less Damage per Cast, but more Damage per Second than their “sticky” counterparts. We have also adjusted the cost to be higher than those “sticky” abilities but will still cost less than they currently do on the Live servers. The standard details are as follows:

• “Sticky” over Time effects will retain their initial PTS iteration of 20+ second durations, 2 second frequencies, with .105 coefficient potency per second (their scaling modifier divided by time), and a baseline cost of 135 per second (2700+)
• Static over Time effects will return to their original duration of 10-15 second durations, 1 second frequencies, with .14 coefficient potency per second (U35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changesdown from .1575 on Live, but up from .105 on PTS), and a baseline cost of 270 per second (2700+)

It is our hope these new standards better differentiate the gameplay realities these skills have, reinforcing their strengths and weaknesses, while making them easier to engage with in some ways than compared to what’s currently on Live (easier to manage “sticky” effects, and overall, significantly less cost per second drains).

We have also spent more time looking at durations of where certain skills are sourced and are going to give them base line timers that follow a common denominator. For example, Stampede will remain a 15 second effect as Carve’s final duration is 30 seconds, making it easier to create a rotation where you align a ratio of casts to one another. We hope these differing standards allow you to better decide what type of pacing your build utilizes. If you prefer a higher risk and reward playstyle that is more challenging to keep up and manage, you can opt to take Static over Time abilities. Alternatively, if you want easier to utilize and safer skills with less risk, you can choose to use more Sticky over Time abilities, or a blend of both depending on the encounter or build you’re playing against.

After these changes go in next week, we will continue to monitor feedback and act accordingly where deemed necessary, so please continue to provide constructive takes and discussions. Note that we are already planning some additional changes for the Sorcerer and Warden, based on your feedback, that will go on the PTS before Update 35 launches. A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome. Finally, thank you all for your patience and time in helping up improve upon these areas. May your roads lead to warm sands.

Sincerely

Here is my suggestion for a solution to the power creep and Gap. That would be balanced and skill oriented. And would get rid of the unnecessary balance changes that the devs have set forth for testing.

My suggestion would be to leave the core mechanics similar to what they are already existing in the game. For these veteran trials and hard modes and veteran dungeons and their hard modes, what should be done is already an existing core mechanic in other parts of the game and could be incorporated into these dungeons and trials.
What I'm speaking of is like for example the Dolmens in Summerset. The harder you come at them and the more powerful you or your group including randoms around you hit it. The more the Dolmens throw at you meaning they get harder and the final boss has more health and becomes more difficult to kill. If you are by yourself and stand there and light attack the ads that come at you taking your time and barely doing any damage the final boss is like a wet noodle. NOW I'm not suggesting if you do like light damage in a trial than the boss would be like a wet noodle there should be a bottom level where all bosses start at in their power and the harder you hit the dungeon from the beginning the more powerful and harder it is for that bosses to be killed including the ads in between bosses and the ads thrown at you during the boss fight would reflect your power output. Essentially veteran mode could be removed (meaning) that the harder you hit the dungeon it becomes veteran because of your damage dealt.
And things like Trifecta and no death runs achievements would only be given if you hit the dungeon from the very beginning with everything you got all the way to the end and you reach a certain score of damage and time it has taken you together for the game to consider you doing it in hard mode vet.
This way people at the bottom of the power level would still be able to enjoy trials and DLC dungeons and learn the mechanics and get better so they could progress, have something to work for while having fun doing it. Which would also mean people at the very top tier, the 1% of gamers could and would still be challenged by a dungeon that's smart enough to know you are coming in there whooping some butt and it's going to throw everything it's got at you just like as if it was that hard mode. And mid-tier gamers would have a dungeon or trial thrown at them slightly less harder than the 1%, but definitely harder than the lower percent of the power band. Rewards and achievements would be given out based on overall performance. Higher performance higher rewards.

Say things like DLC dungeons. Low end players could enter that dungeon and practice and see how far they can get. And say maybe the game would give a scorecard letting them know how far their group was from receiving a vet accomplishment which would include a monster helmet. Not an individual scorecard but a group scorecard knowing the basic damage and time outputs of that group with maybe a few suggestions on what they can do to improve performance. Or (this would probably be better) if you give a individual scorecard let it be private only to that player so the group would not be able to see it but the player would know what they need to do to improve.

So to sum this up.
Smart dungeons & trials that adjust to your power band and give rewards accordingly to your progression through that dungeon or trial. Meaning no achievements unless you come at it full force but still passable by mid and lower tiered players

Leave existing basic combat mechanics that the community has grown to love and gotten used to except for small minor changes adjustments and tweaks.

Implement a group or individual suggestion card for improvement and help after completing said dungeons or trials.

I wholeheartedly believe this would satisfy the upper 1% the upper 2% and the lower end and everything in between. Making the game fun and accessible and challenging for all ESO players from all walks of life. Even the wood elves

peacenote

At this point, even if I had time to test on PTS and give feedback I would have no idea where to start. And I have zero idea how to begin rebuilding my characters from this patch if it goes live. The sheer amount of proposed changes is overwhelming.

I do all roles and have all classes but I try to prioritize how things will affect the healing role and... this whole thing just makes me want to never launch the game again. I have a full time job already; ESO cannot require that much time from me to understand combat changes from a single patch.

Tandor

peacenote wrote: »

At this point, even if I had time to test on PTS and give feedback I would have no idea where to start. And I have zero idea how to begin rebuilding my characters from this patch if it goes live. The sheer amount of proposed changes is overwhelming.

I do all roles and have all classes but I try to prioritize how things will affect the healing role and... this whole thing just makes me want to never launch the game again. I have a full time job already; ESO cannot require that much time from me to understand combat changes from a single patch.

My advice to anyone in that position - and it's advice I follow myself - is not to read the patch notes but to continue playing the game the same way as usual and see what the outcome is. Thus far with all the combat and balancing changes there have been over the years I simply haven't noticed them in any game-changing or game-breaking way and have just adapted where necessary as I've gone along. Clearly that is hugely dependent on playstyle, but for those who don't have the time or inclination to follow these things in too fine a detail it's the only practical option and is better than simply abandoning the game without trying it after all this goes live.

shadyjane62

Jazraena wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

More importantly, a lot of people actively welcomed, not only tolerated, AwA. Opinions clashed there, hard.

Some actively welcomed the principle, but most of those who did so and provided feedback on the PTS didn't like the way it was implemented, the assumption having been that it would be either an additional system or a purely optional one, not one that would remove totally the character-based approach of the last 8 years. In the event, the jumbled mess that was implemented on the PTS was overwhelmingly criticised, as was the way that ZOS simply wouldn't engage over it.

I could point to a few hundred people's worth of ESO communities that are still overwhelmingly positive towards AwA. Sorry, but it had a lot more people supporting it than you think.

I deleted 17 alts because of the AWA, so I guess I was in the other camp than you.

Elsonso

Tandor wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

At this point, even if I had time to test on PTS and give feedback I would have no idea where to start. And I have zero idea how to begin rebuilding my characters from this patch if it goes live. The sheer amount of proposed changes is overwhelming.

I do all roles and have all classes but I try to prioritize how things will affect the healing role and... this whole thing just makes me want to never launch the game again. I have a full time job already; ESO cannot require that much time from me to understand combat changes from a single patch.

My advice to anyone in that position - and it's advice I follow myself - is not to read the patch notes but to continue playing the game the same way as usual and see what the outcome is. Thus far with all the combat and balancing changes there have been over the years I simply haven't noticed them in any game-changing or game-breaking way and have just adapted where necessary as I've gone along. Clearly that is hugely dependent on playstyle, but for those who don't have the time or inclination to follow these things in too fine a detail it's the only practical option and is better than simply abandoning the game without trying it after all this goes live.

Yeah, this is what I used to do. Until this year. This year seems different.

RevJJ

While I get the requests to have data to analyze, if large numbers of players start dreading updates and patch notes instead of looking forward to them I think there is something fundamentally wrong. Players are supposed to keep wanting to play because it’s fun.