Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

Flangdoodle

ThirdEye_PULSE wrote: »

I'm impressed, really. Not a single class is happy with the patch. Bad players, mid-tier, end gamers all upset with the patch... even when the whole purpose was helping bottom players tier players. You've even managed to alienate PVP and PVE players at the same time.

You've finally done it... a patch so despised by everyone that you've united the entire ESO community against U35.

OTOH:

There's an old expression in negotiating (contracts, divorces, etc.) that if everyone's pissed off and thinks they got a raw deal - you must've done it right.

(I'll see myself out...)

ThirdEye_PULSE

Flangdoodle wrote: »

ThirdEye_PULSE wrote: »

I'm impressed, really. Not a single class is happy with the patch. Bad players, mid-tier, end gamers all upset with the patch... even when the whole purpose was helping bottom players tier players. You've even managed to alienate PVP and PVE players at the same time.

You've finally done it... a patch so despised by everyone that you've united the entire ESO community against U35.

OTOH:

There's an old expression in negotiating (contracts, divorces, etc.) that if everyone's pissed off and thinks they got a raw deal - you must've done it right.

(I'll see myself out...)

Yeah. But i think it works differently in a game. Usually, if only one class is mad or one playstyle... the fallout is small enough to be okay. If everyone is mad in a collective game most of us pay for... everyone loses

warich

ZOS, regarding the new changes to warden (Aug. 8, 2022):

1) The proposed changes to winter's revenge directly conflict the "play how you want" vision that was conveyed in the hybridization patch. By making the winter's revenge skill do more damage with a destro staff, not only are you starting down a slippery slope by including specific weapons in class skills, but you're also forcing the player to use a destro staff to get the most out of the skill.

2) There is now a very large gap between stamina and magicka warden. All of the magicka warden skills/morphs got buffed, while stam falls behind. Please note the "Piercing Cold" passive from the ice skill line. It re-introduces the gap that used to make the wild guardian morph useless. It buffs the mag shalks and lends itself to the heavy/medium attack meta that has been introduced with the changes to heavy attacks/empower. Please address this.

3) PLEASE for the love of the divines reconsider the change to the advanced species passive from the animal skill line. It is redundant to the magicka wardens you're trying so hard to buff since most of the time they're wearing mostly light armor, which also gives pen. It does nothing but hurt the class overall.

I don't know what warden did to deserve getting nerfed into oblivion, but with this upcoming patch the class in a damage dealer role is so far behind others that it's just sad to watch.

Ratzkifal

Here is how I think PTS Feedback on the forum should be handled from now on.
Every single isolated change in a patch should get its own official thread on the PTS forum with a poll about the reception of this change attached for good measure. At the end of the PTS week, the threads will be locked, a summary is made for each and once that is done an actual dev comes in to comment on all the points that were made in regards to each change. After that the thread is opened again or it stays locked and a new one is created depending on whether the next PTS week changed something about it or not.
If that sounds like a lot of effort, then maybe "a lot of effort" is exactly what it takes to properly communicate with your customers.

Developers interviewing other developers on Twitch is not communication and neither is making comments on twitter. If you think my suggestion is unfairly favoring the forums, then honestly maybe giving the official forum that extra attention is necessary and will help channel the feedback in one place so that everyone actually knows where to communicate with the devs. We can't all make youtube videos that are watched by tens of thousands of people after all.

master_vanargand

Nightblade's Surprise Attack is trash.
Game Over.

MostlyJustCats

Flangdoodle wrote: »

OTOH:

There's an old expression in negotiating (contracts, divorces, etc.) that if everyone's pissed off and thinks they got a raw deal - you must've done it right.

(I'll see myself out...)

That's true in negotiations between parties whose interests are opposed to each others' and one side's loss is, by default, the other side's gain. In this case, new or lower skilled players do not automatically benefit if higher skilled players lose something as their interests are, in general, aligned. Making everybody upset is just a sign that the proposal isn't just a failure in implementation (wherein some stakeholders would find benefit) but instead a failure in principle. It means that not only did they fail to accomplish their goals but that they didn't even have the right ideas for how to do it.

francesinhalover

warich wrote: »

ZOS, regarding the new changes to warden (Aug. 8, 2022):

1) The proposed changes to winter's revenge directly conflict the "play how you want" vision that was conveyed in the hybridization patch. By making the winter's revenge skill do more damage with a destro staff, not only are you starting down a slippery slope by including specific weapons in class skills, but you're also forcing the player to use a destro staff to get the most out of the skill.

2) There is now a very large gap between stamina and magicka warden. All of the magicka warden skills/morphs got buffed, while stam falls behind. Please note the "Piercing Cold" passive from the ice skill line. It re-introduces the gap that used to make the wild guardian morph useless. It buffs the mag shalks and lends itself to the heavy/medium attack meta that has been introduced with the changes to heavy attacks/empower. Please address this.

3) PLEASE for the love of the divines reconsider the change to the advanced species passive from the animal skill line. It is redundant to the magicka wardens you're trying so hard to buff since most of the time they're wearing mostly light armor, which also gives pen. It does nothing but hurt the class overall.

I don't know what warden did to deserve getting nerfed into oblivion, but with this upcoming patch the class in a damage dealer role is so far behind others that it's just sad to watch.

I mean, they can just wear some medium pieces.

I use 5 med 2 light on my necro stam, and sorcerer, not sure why mages refuse to do it.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Last PTS patch before certification and No fixes to restoration staff heavy attacks, No buffs to Templars Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps, No word on medium weaving attack weaving raising the skill gap level. Just canceled my sub.

gariondavey

Aldoss wrote: »

Complete failure of the dev team to do anything meaningful to warden.

The notes this patch prove two things for me:

1. This forum is entirely pointless. No one at ZOS reads this forum and it's entirely for PR. ZOS will do whatever they want with no regard for their respective communities and how proposed changes will affect them.

2. ZOS's words mean nothing. This patch week was promised to make major changes to magicka sorcerer, nightblade, and warden. What we got were some changes to magblade and worthless changes to magden. Magicka Sorcerers literally weren't even mentioned besides a minor tweak.

How are we to ever trust anything you say?

@ZOS_RichLambert asked for trust at the beginning of this patch cycle. A cycle, might I add, that was foreshadowed previously by ZOS as only being "minor tweaks".

That one point set the stage for this tragedy of Shakesperian proportions. You've directly attacked nearly every micro community present in your game, except maybe the housing community.

You've asked for feedback, and then directly ignored or worse, implemented the exact opposite of what those communities asked for.

My wife and I have been huge ESO proponents for the last 3 years, both PvP Magdens. We buy annual subs. We buy big crown packs. We buy the new chapters.

Our wallet is now closed. Good luck to you.

I know aldoss and his wife in game and this is pretty telling, zos.

Rimskjegg

Flangdoodle wrote: »

There's an old expression in negotiating (contracts, divorces, etc.) that if everyone's pissed off and thinks they got a raw deal - you must've done it right.

Might be some truth to that in PvP, where everyone is always in direct competition with each other. PvE is another matter. In PvE, everyone except score chasers are cooperating. So pissing off 12 players equally only makes 12 times more ***.

Jaimeh

Why haven't arena boss health bars been untouched? Let's put aside vma and vdsa, since they are pretty old content, but vBRP for example might be a problem now in the new update.

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

warich wrote: »

ZOS, regarding the new changes to warden (Aug. 8, 2022):

1) The proposed changes to winter's revenge directly conflict the "play how you want" vision that was conveyed in the hybridization patch. By making the winter's revenge skill do more damage with a destro staff, not only are you starting down a slippery slope by including specific weapons in class skills, but you're also forcing the player to use a destro staff to get the most out of the skill.

2) There is now a very large gap between stamina and magicka warden. All of the magicka warden skills/morphs got buffed, while stam falls behind. Please note the "Piercing Cold" passive from the ice skill line. It re-introduces the gap that used to make the wild guardian morph useless. It buffs the mag shalks and lends itself to the heavy/medium attack meta that has been introduced with the changes to heavy attacks/empower. Please address this.

3) PLEASE for the love of the divines reconsider the change to the advanced species passive from the animal skill line. It is redundant to the magicka wardens you're trying so hard to buff since most of the time they're wearing mostly light armor, which also gives pen. It does nothing but hurt the class overall.

I don't know what warden did to deserve getting nerfed into oblivion, but with this upcoming patch the class in a damage dealer role is so far behind others that it's just sad to watch.

I mean, they can just wear some medium pieces.

I use 5 med 2 light on my necro stam, and sorcerer, not sure why mages refuse to do it.

It’s due to the fact that Stamina Recovery doesn’t do anything for a Mage. That and Penetration being more valuable than Weapon and Spell damage at their current values.

You can run Medium on a Magic focused build but it is unnecessarily harder to do.

However, I run five light and 2 medium and that lets me gain some benefit from the skill line. It works for me.

IZZEFlameLash

francesinhalover wrote: »

warich wrote: »

ZOS, regarding the new changes to warden (Aug. 8, 2022):

1) The proposed changes to winter's revenge directly conflict the "play how you want" vision that was conveyed in the hybridization patch. By making the winter's revenge skill do more damage with a destro staff, not only are you starting down a slippery slope by including specific weapons in class skills, but you're also forcing the player to use a destro staff to get the most out of the skill.

2) There is now a very large gap between stamina and magicka warden. All of the magicka warden skills/morphs got buffed, while stam falls behind. Please note the "Piercing Cold" passive from the ice skill line. It re-introduces the gap that used to make the wild guardian morph useless. It buffs the mag shalks and lends itself to the heavy/medium attack meta that has been introduced with the changes to heavy attacks/empower. Please address this.

3) PLEASE for the love of the divines reconsider the change to the advanced species passive from the animal skill line. It is redundant to the magicka wardens you're trying so hard to buff since most of the time they're wearing mostly light armor, which also gives pen. It does nothing but hurt the class overall.

I don't know what warden did to deserve getting nerfed into oblivion, but with this upcoming patch the class in a damage dealer role is so far behind others that it's just sad to watch.

I mean, they can just wear some medium pieces.

I use 5 med 2 light on my necro stam, and sorcerer, not sure why mages refuse to do it.

I mean, stam builds can wear light too if penetration is worth making sacrifices for in group/solo builds. I am not sure why people don't do that instead of changing up builds for stam dps.

aetherial_heavenn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Great job standardizing skill durations for an easy and accessible rotation. My Sorcerer has abilities that line up so well:

Crystal Weapon - 2s
Bound Armaments - 4s, 40s
Daedric Prey - 6s
Lightning Flood - 10s
Stampede - 15s
Hurricane - 20s
Carve - 12s, 22s, 29s (to keep duration)
Quick Cloak - 30s

It's actually difficult to come up with that many different numbers without accidentally repeating any, and the fact that so few share common multiples is truly impressive. Raise the floor, right?

Unfortunately other classes have it even worse, since the duration-modifying passives on Nightblade, Templar and Dragonknight were apparently forgotten. Mage's Guild skills have a similar issue. Mixing any ground and "sticky" DoTs gets messy fast. Warden is also in an awkward spot with Shalks no longer defining a rhythm of 3, and instead being extended to (the only?) 8s skill.

Necro still has the clunky Blastbones as a baseline, the only skill that gets to decide its own duration (3 or 4s). I guess it doesn't matter much now that neither of these options align with Siphon, Arcanist/Archer or Boneyard. We can just keep our eyes glues to chaotic timers at all times.

Yeah. Someone definitely forgot the passives. Who knows what's the deal with wardens and necros.

I think I understand the final destination for combat changes in the long term but the combat design team chosen route is terribly confusing and it seems like the group content design team are in another vehicle, taking a whole other route....

anvilbert

Raise the floor my A.... you put all classes in the basement then covered us in dirt and poured concrete on top. U35 makes absolutely no sense what so ever in your stated intention. I worked my a.. off to get to 69k so I could do end game content now you are destroying my chances of ever getting there again much less hard modes or no death runs. You need to pull your head out of the sand or you won't have a customer base to spend $$ on your game. WE ARE NOT PAID TESTERS, WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS. we leave you have no income!!!!!

Noerra

I'm not sure I can play this game anymore. No disrespect to the hard working developers, but.... what is up with all of these changes? This is a MASSIVE downgrade for me... My friends won't play with my anymore... Girlfriend doesn't want to play ESO anymore... and it is SOLELY (not partly.... entirely!!!!) because of changes like this. Constantly changing meta and mechanics etc.... I don't play anymore because no one will play with me =/ I was for a while... learning to be a 1vX'er in PvP but then all these weird changes happened and I figured I'd take a few months off for things to swing back around to a more or less balanced state....

My .... God ....

Why the Dark Cloak change with week 5? I was a NB Tank main before I fell in love with the PVP side of the game. NB feels fine to me... able to do vet dlc dungeons just fine with random gear that makes no sense for a Tank... Standing Still actually makes the skill worse in my opinion... Aside from it being a weird decision PVE wise... This makes the skill virtually unusable in pvp now...

As a PVE Tank in most MMOs I've played... The skill was fine... What your game needs is better tutorials for its group content. The game does nothing to show you how to be a better player.

Think of it this way... You want to play pvp... when you look at your abilities there are a handful of them that are pretty much unusable because their design was brought about by theories around pve.

---

Sorry for the rant,... here is some constructive feedback.

Anyways... If I have any constructive feedback it would be:

-The game needs show the player the direction to becoming a better player... Solo Challenges that focus on weaving, blocking, and interrupting or something. Think FF14 and how they have to do a tutorial that shows them how to play their class.

-Bring back class representatives and actually listen to them. Your players are a resource and a wealth of knowledge. Your players, without question, know the game, class balance, and how to utilize the mechanics better than you do. They spend more hours mastering this game... Developing isn't mastering the game...

As a boxing coach, I train many people and they are all better than me... They are the ones in the ring... They have gathered experience and knowledge about that experience. They tell me what feels strong and what feels lacking... and I use my resources to give them the drills and simulations that will remedy that.

Listen to your players. They will tell you what is needed... literally ask..

As for trying to make the game easier for New Players... Ask the Veterans.. Your class reps if you had them... The changes that you are making are breaking the game and ultimately driving away the Veterans that would mentor them.

-Stop making so many drastic changes... This can be solved by communicating with your players and finding out what they want... NO ONE ASKED FOR A MAJORITY OF THESE WILD CHANGES IN UPDATE 35! So...what are the players asking for? My Girlfriend quit after spending 100+ Hours in game because her build and preferred playstyle was nerfed into the ground and she doesn't want to play anymore... I rest my case.

When you spend hundreds of dollars on this game... subscription, chapters, and crown store items... It feels like a real kick in the *** when an update absolutely kills the fun of the game for you... Should have just kept my money in my wallet...

It's like I brought home a new gaming chair that breaks after a week and is unusable... should have spent my money on something else... At least with the gaming chair I can get refunded when it breaks... can't get refunded when ZoS breaks their game.

-Don't shy away from a high skill ceiling... When I first got into ESO my friends and I tried to capture a keep in cyrodiil and we got 1v4'd... Was I upset or mad? No... I was in Awe! (He was super nice too and gave us a bunch of helpful tips. Because MMOs are best when you create an environment in which the veterans mentor the newbies.) I knew that if I applied myself I could learn to be on that guys level... If I don't have an experience that shows me what I could cultivate and become... I don't really have a goal in game... the fact that a player could be that good means that I could one day be that good... That's why I play games.... If I can see my potential, I will want to play the game. That becomes my goal... And from that aimstar I will learn the crafting, do the pvp, flip items and make gold, farm gear, farm CP, etc.... All so I can become like that person that kicked my butt when I started!

React

Dark Cloak (morph):
This morph once again heals for Max Health per tick, rather than missing health.
Reduced the base healing by approximately 42% compared to the live version.
This morph has a new added functionality where the Heal over Time is increased by 150% when not moving.

The newest iteration of dark cloak is a mistake, in both PVE and PVP.

In PVP, this destroys the functionality of the skill for non-cloak nightblades. Brawlers, hybrids, and pure magicka nightblades relied on this skill to be a consistent heal over time. You simply cannot stand still in any meaningful situation in pvp. The only PVP playstyle this enables is pure troll tanking. What happened to "play how you want"? Why are we being forced to play nightblade either as a cloak spamming ganker or as a full troll tank?

In PVE, I have seen numerous tanks saying that they are too mobile to make use of a skill like this. It encourages them to stand in AOEs and sacrifice positioning to get a decent self heal, which seems redundant.

Many people would like for this to just be returned to a normal heal over time ability, rather than one with an unusable condition.

Falcon_of_light

revert Suprise attack changes or u will just kill nbs in pvp.

Greeed2025

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Knee jerk reactions... while not unexpected, they are still tiresome and disappointing.

I get it, change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end...

yea ofcourse. Give me 10 mins. Let me just assemble 11 man on PTS to clear Oax and Bahsei HM to experience the actual changes before guessing and going off just to check Xalv HM HP....
oh wait cant even get enough people to clear it on live servers but hey At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end right?

HiveMind3006

What a mess. If these combat changes are implemented then my sub stops along with my crown spending I may even start looking for another game. Such a shame after the time effort and money I have spent on this game. ..What a mess

abakzn

Just rename the game to "The Amazing Unwinnable / Unloseable Ping Pong Elder Scrolls Online"

shadyjane62

abakzn wrote: »

Just rename the game to "The Amazing Unwinnable / Unloseable Ping Pong Elder Scrolls Online"

Featuring wet pool noodles for your playing enjoyment.

siddique

Kragh needed the 10% health reduction. Definitely going in the right direction here.

anvilbert

There is nothing in U35 that's makes anything more accessible. This patch is aimed at the top 1%. While it is only destroying the other 99%. U35 needs to be trashed. Who cares what the 1% can do. I am only concerned about my prog group and this patch will kill us. We just cleared VCR+0 VSS this yr we are now working on Rockgrove and have reached Bashi. With lower dps this is brick wall. I don't beleive anyone at ZOS is reading these forums at all. I personally get a notification of each and every comment in my email and I read them all . AND ITS NOT MY JOB. Your customers are pissed wake up and take heed before the game I love will be gone for lack of player base.

Greeed2025

Wait are you saying that ZOS managed to waste 5 weeks of PTS, precious countless testing time, constructive feedback and analysis of the community to achieve at least one of their mentioned goals partially. There is literally no way devs can fq up such a thing right? And not even only that also spooking of even the most loyal endgame players and popular streamers. And imagine beeing able to sort of most of the issues by just rollingback only the combat changes and thats literally it since the dungeons of U35 is straight up awesome. But yeah I think we are all wrong since "change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end..."

siddique

Greeed2025 wrote: »

Wait are you saying that ZOS managed to waste 5 weeks of PTS, precious countless testing time, constructive feedback and analysis of the community to achieve at least one of their mentioned goals partially. There is literally no way devs can fq up such a thing right? And not even only that also spooking of even the most loyal endgame players and popular streamers. And imagine beeing able to sort of most of the issues by just rollingback only the combat changes and thats literally it since the dungeons of U35 is straight up awesome. But yeah I think we are all wrong since "change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end..."

You might be jerking that knee here. Not unexpected and very tiring.

Greeed2025

siddique wrote: »

Greeed2025 wrote: »

Wait are you saying that ZOS managed to waste 5 weeks of PTS, precious countless testing time, constructive feedback and analysis of the community to achieve at least one of their mentioned goals partially. There is literally no way devs can fq up such a thing right? And not even only that also spooking of even the most loyal endgame players and popular streamers. And imagine beeing able to sort of most of the issues by just rollingback only the combat changes and thats literally it since the dungeons of U35 is straight up awesome. But yeah I think we are all wrong since "change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end..."

You might be jerking that knee here. Not unexpected and very tiring.

""while not unexpected, still tiresome and disappointing.""

IZZEFlameLash

Greeed2025 wrote: »

Wait are you saying that ZOS managed to waste 5 weeks of PTS, precious countless testing time, constructive feedback and analysis of the community to achieve at least one of their mentioned goals partially. There is literally no way devs can fq up such a thing right? And not even only that also spooking of even the most loyal endgame players and popular streamers. And imagine beeing able to sort of most of the issues by just rollingback only the combat changes and thats literally it since the dungeons of U35 is straight up awesome. But yeah I think we are all wrong since "change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end..."

You know what's funny? They will take this literally and think you are supporting them.

Kirawolfe

Greeed2025 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

Knee jerk reactions... while not unexpected, they are still tiresome and disappointing.

I get it, change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end...

This is incredibly insulting.

He ignores the fact that they have tested it, and ignores the fact that these players are smart and not just being 'emotional' 'going off the deep end'.

He consigns people who are rightfully concerned about U35 to that convenient, easily dismissed bucket of 'people afraid of change' when the majority are so very far from that - content creators that know this game better than he does and know the impact these changes will have at every level of gameplay.

I am disappointed in the 'leadership' being shown here.

Jazraena

Kirawolfe wrote: »

Greeed2025 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

Knee jerk reactions... while not unexpected, they are still tiresome and disappointing.

I get it, change is scary. At the same time though, a little trust would be much appreciated. At least experience the actual changes before guessing and going off the deep end...

This is incredibly insulting.

He ignores the fact that they have tested it, and ignores the fact that these players are smart and not just being 'emotional' 'going off the deep end'.

He consigns people who are rightfully concerned about U35 to that convenient, easily dismissed bucket of 'people afraid of change' when the majority are so very far from that - content creators that know this game better than he does and know the impact these changes will have at every level of gameplay.

I am disappointed in the 'leadership' being shown here.

That was before the PTS. Thus people have, in fact, not tested it.

They were right anyway in the end, but still, let's not muddle the facts.