Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

Necrotech_Master

OsteelbladeO wrote: »

When are these changes going into effect?

the PTS cycle is usually about 6 weeks, so guessing around late august

assuming they are deaf to the calls of delaying the release a week or 2, or flat rolling back the combat changes before release lol

WrathOfInnos

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Great job standardizing skill durations for an easy and accessible rotation. My Sorcerer has abilities that line up so well:

Crystal Weapon - 2s
Bound Armaments - 4s, 40s
Daedric Prey - 6s
Lightning Flood - 10s
Stampede - 15s
Hurricane - 20s
Carve - 12s, 22s, 29s (to keep duration)
Quick Cloak - 30s

I shouldn't complain without offering a solution. Maybe the durations could become based around multiples of 4.

Crystal Weapon - 2s
Bound Armaments - 4s
Daedric Prey - 8s
Lightning Flood - 8s
Haunting Curse - 12s
Liquid Lightning - 12s
Stampede - 12s
Hurricane - 24s
Quick Cloak - 24s
Carve - 24s

This would allow players the option of performing a 1-bar easy 8 step rotation of:

Crystal > Armaments > Crystal > Prey >
Crystal > Armaments > Crystal > Flood

I would set this up on my bar to allow the button presses to simply be: 1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4

Or if they wanted something more complex it could be a 2-bar 24 step rotation of:

Crystal > Haunting > Crystal > Armaments >
Crystal > Stampede > Crystal > Armaments >
Crystal > Carve > Crystal > Armaments >
Crystal > Haunting > Crystal > Armaments >
Crystal > Stampede > Crystal > Armaments >
Crystal > Hurricane > Crystal > Armaments

With plenty of other options to play around with involving varying levels of complexity.

Edit: In this example, I show Quick Cloak having a 24s duration. This allows it to be versatile and work with other classes that may be based around 3s, 4s, 6s, 8s or 12s patterns. In this case I would make the other morph (Deadly Cloak) 10s, 15s or 20s to work well with rotations based around 5s (such as Nightblade) or 10s. Note that Stampede is also a nice generic number, where 12s is a multiple of 2, 3, 4, and 6.

Elsonso

OsteelbladeO wrote: »

When are these changes going into effect?

Aug 22 for PC, Steam, Stadia. September 6 for PS and XBox.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62487

mpicklesster

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also agree that dreadsail is a good example of how the normal and vet differs so much that normal in no way whatsoever prepares you for vet

the first boss channel attack is a wipe on vet, but ignorable on normal, the lightning stacks dont build on normal in the next section, the reef guardian doesnt 1 shot you if you fail a reef heart on normal, the final boss basically has no bridge mechanic on normal

most all of those mechanics are basically insta wipes on vet

This is a good argument for why normal mode isn't accessibility mode. In effect, it's really gear farming mode at best. The difference between normal and vet is especially pronounced in the newer DLC dungeons. So when I see people on the forums saying "ZOS doesn't need to make an accessibility mode. They already have normal mode lol," I interpret what they're saying to really mean "I haven't seriously attempted many vet DLC dungeons. I'm just pouncing on a cheap opportunity to be condescending behind the safety of an anonymous, unaccountable public forum."

Anyway--I'm glad to see another person who recognizes that normal mode =/= accessibility mode. Keep up the good fight!

siddique

mpicklesster wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also agree that dreadsail is a good example of how the normal and vet differs so much that normal in no way whatsoever prepares you for vet

the first boss channel attack is a wipe on vet, but ignorable on normal, the lightning stacks dont build on normal in the next section, the reef guardian doesnt 1 shot you if you fail a reef heart on normal, the final boss basically has no bridge mechanic on normal

most all of those mechanics are basically insta wipes on vet

This is a good argument for why normal mode isn't accessibility mode. In effect, it's really gear farming mode at best. The difference between normal and vet is especially pronounced in the newer DLC dungeons. So when I see people on the forums saying "ZOS doesn't need to make an accessibility mode. They already have normal mode lol," I interpret what they're saying to really mean "I haven't seriously attempted many vet DLC dungeons. I'm just pouncing on a cheap opportunity to be condescending behind the safety of an anonymous, unaccountable public forum."

Anyway--I'm glad to see another person who recognizes that normal mode =/= accessibility mode. Keep up the good fight!

However, accessibility also =/= getting veteran/hardmode content handed to someone without any effort or practice put behind it.

Might as well give dev godmode to everyone and be done with it if getting better at a game is so frowned upon.

Necrotech_Master

mpicklesster wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also agree that dreadsail is a good example of how the normal and vet differs so much that normal in no way whatsoever prepares you for vet

the first boss channel attack is a wipe on vet, but ignorable on normal, the lightning stacks dont build on normal in the next section, the reef guardian doesnt 1 shot you if you fail a reef heart on normal, the final boss basically has no bridge mechanic on normal

most all of those mechanics are basically insta wipes on vet

This is a good argument for why normal mode isn't accessibility mode. In effect, it's really gear farming mode at best. The difference between normal and vet is especially pronounced in the newer DLC dungeons. So when I see people on the forums saying "ZOS doesn't need to make an accessibility mode. They already have normal mode lol," I interpret what they're saying to really mean "I haven't seriously attempted many vet DLC dungeons. I'm just pouncing on a cheap opportunity to be condescending behind the safety of an anonymous, unaccountable public forum."

Anyway--I'm glad to see another person who recognizes that normal mode =/= accessibility mode. Keep up the good fight!

i believe initially the normal mode was supposed to be like the training mode for the content, essentially removing many of the 1 shots that you deal with on vet (so instead of dealing 100%+ hp in dmg they only do about 80-85% hp in dmg), but in many cases this is not clear, or in some cases like dreadsail first boss channel attack, the dmg difference is so high between normal and vet that one is entirely ignorable (2500 dmg per hit) and the other is a wipe (25000 dmg per hit)

Jazraena

It's sadly their M.O.

One of the few mechanics the game actually teaches you is to block heavy attacks.

Then you go into a Vet Dungeon. The boss charges a heavy attack. You do as you're taught.


Squish.

mpicklesster

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i believe initially the normal mode was supposed to be like the training mode for the content, essentially removing many of the 1 shots that you deal with on vet (so instead of dealing 100%+ hp in dmg they only do about 80-85% hp in dmg), but in many cases this is not clear, or in some cases like dreadsail first boss channel attack, the dmg difference is so high between normal and vet that one is entirely ignorable (2500 dmg per hit) and the other is a wipe (25000 dmg per hit)

I agree that was probably the original intent behind having a normal mode; I'm just saying the divide between normal and vet has grown so large that normal mode rarely has any significant instructive value.

Black Rose Prison is a great example of this. My dungeon group has been progging vet BRP to get the trifecta and we didn't even bother with normal mode. The vast majority of 1-shots in BRP are barely a tickle in normal mode, so trying to learn from it is just a waste of time.

The growing normal/vet divide also makes it a chore to find content in ESO that's challenging but not demoralizing. It sometimes seems like the developers only had enough imagination for implementing 2 levels of challenge: pillow fight or torture.

mpicklesster

siddique wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i also agree that dreadsail is a good example of how the normal and vet differs so much that normal in no way whatsoever prepares you for vet

the first boss channel attack is a wipe on vet, but ignorable on normal, the lightning stacks dont build on normal in the next section, the reef guardian doesnt 1 shot you if you fail a reef heart on normal, the final boss basically has no bridge mechanic on normal

most all of those mechanics are basically insta wipes on vet

This is a good argument for why normal mode isn't accessibility mode. In effect, it's really gear farming mode at best. The difference between normal and vet is especially pronounced in the newer DLC dungeons. So when I see people on the forums saying "ZOS doesn't need to make an accessibility mode. They already have normal mode lol," I interpret what they're saying to really mean "I haven't seriously attempted many vet DLC dungeons. I'm just pouncing on a cheap opportunity to be condescending behind the safety of an anonymous, unaccountable public forum."

Anyway--I'm glad to see another person who recognizes that normal mode =/= accessibility mode. Keep up the good fight!

However, accessibility also =/= getting veteran/hardmode content handed to someone without any effort or practice put behind it.

Might as well give dev godmode to everyone and be done with it if getting better at a game is so frowned upon.

That's a straw man argument. I never even intimated that making content more accessible necessitates getting handed a clear without practice or effort. I also never even intimated that "getting better at the game is so frowned upon." Where in my post is there even a hint of this sentiment?

I'm merely suggesting that normal mode isn't accessibility mode. Furthermore, if ZOS wants to make a proper segue into veteran mode for new and/or disabled players, they need to start making dungeon modes somewhere between normal and veteran. As someone who has several vet hardmode, speed, and no death trifectas, I can personally attest to the fact that the difference between normal and vet is practically like the difference between a pillow fight and a boxing match. Clearly there's room for a middle-ground.

Fidget1302

@ZOS_Gilliam First off thank you for being communicative, not many have offered that despite dinging ZOS on not being communicative with their players. Also, for my feedback on PTS.. the changes made of late are definitely in the right direction, especially the Plaguebreak nerf now not chain proccing deaths.

The only concern I have is still the Noctornal's Ploy set. Despite the new change to it which is certainly a step in the right direction, it's still extremely over-tuned. Everyone and their mother, brother, sister and their dog will be wearing this set in PvP What it's going to do is force a large portion of the PvP player base to run the Rattlecage and Mighty Chudan sets, which means there will be no build diversity between players. There's not a whole lot of build diversity in PvP right now as is, but Nocturnal's Ploy will definitely force players, especially the casual PvP'er population, to seek out Rattlecage and Chudan just to be able to hopefully survive long enough to have a smattering of fun.

The set will greatly strip a player's armor, damage, and sustain to a degree that shouldn't be so freely given by simply applying a Major or Minor debuff to them.

I don't like complaining without offering suggestions for possible solutions, so here's some ideas that might make the set strong still, but not overpowered.

1. Have it work off a percent chance. Example: When you apply a Major debuff to an enemy, you have a 20% chance to remove a Major Buff with a duration from the target. When you apply a Minor debuff to an enemy, you have a 35% chance to remove a Minor debuff with a duration from the target.

2. Adjust the cooldown. I think right now it's every 2 seconds. Since most buffs last around 20'ish seconds, why not adjust the cooldown from every 2 seconds to every 10 seconds?

3. Add a drawback like you do with a lot of the mythic items. Perhaps while the proc condition is active, the player benefiting from Nocturnal's Ploy's proc has their own abilities cost increased to (insert flat or percent based number here). Or perhaps their damage taken is increased? Or perhaps the player must be (and remain) within (insert number of distance between the benefiter and the victim)?

As is stands right now, there's skills like the Nightblade's Mark Target or the Destro skill Elemental Drain which cost nothing to cast yet offer major debuffs to the enemy, which means players are gonna be able to chill out and free cast certain zero cost abilities all the live-long-day and benefit from this set without there being any counter play.

All in all, y'all are heading the right way! Keep it up and have a god day.

gariondavey

Jabs 4 hits 0.8 seconds
20 percent damage reduction from live
Scrap burning light changes or at least make it so you can proc it 1 time per second

Jaraal

Snit wrote: »

Maybe class identity matters to us as much as those spreadsheets do to the devs.

Every class DOT has to be x.x% of a spammable, which has to x.x% of a heal, which has to be this percentage of that to fall in line with the "standards."

Translation: ZOS wants everybody to have the same power, but with different colored particle effects. It seems they are so afraid of one class or another becoming "meta" that they are doing everything possible to make every class a cookie cutter clone of every other class. They have even stated in the past that the reason for the standardization is so that they can make across the board changes by simply modifying a couple of numbers.

The problem with that is that players will become bored much faster if every new class they start is just like the last class they played. And it also trivializes the tank, healer, and DPS metric for dungeons and will increase the number of fake tanks and fake healers when all you need are four identical builds from any classes you want to use to plow through content as fast as possible.

I miss the old style MMORPGs like EverQuest, where you actually needed clerics, tanks, wizards, and whatnot, rather than four interchangeable hybrid damage/tank/healers to be successful. Unique combat starting out 8 years ago made ESO special. But now there seems to be a rush to make every player the same, but with a different name.

Jazraena

Please no. I loved EQ1, but being forever locked to one role per class was terrible.

Sandman929

Far be it for me to defend anything at all about the development choices, but I remember before standardization there was a lot of complaining about classes having unfair advantages in one aspect or another.
So if we're worried about everything being the same now, we kind of asked for it.

Elsonso

Sandman929 wrote: »

Far be it for me to defend anything at all about the development choices, but I remember before standardization there was a lot of complaining about classes having unfair advantages in one aspect or another.
So if we're worried about everything being the same now, we kind of asked for it.

People ask for things, but it is up to ZOS to decide how to implement things. Players cannot be blamed for asking that classes do not have unfair advantages. The decision to embark on the road to homogenization is all on ZOS.

Sandman929

Elsonso wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Far be it for me to defend anything at all about the development choices, but I remember before standardization there was a lot of complaining about classes having unfair advantages in one aspect or another.
So if we're worried about everything being the same now, we kind of asked for it.

People ask for things, but it is up to ZOS to decide how to implement things. Players cannot be blamed for asking that classes do not have unfair advantages. The decision to embark on the road to homogenization is all on ZOS.

I'd be curious to hear about the other ways of making all things equal

Jaraal

Jazraena wrote: »

Please no. I loved EQ1, but being forever locked to one role per class was terrible.

That's why you logged on to a different character to play whatever class was needed at the moment. It promoted game longevity, because if you wanted to be good at a different role, you had to actually level that role. ESO is heading to a point where any class is sufficient for any role. So why would you want to spend time (and money) leveling another character when the one you're playing right now is all you need to complete any content?

Elsonso

Sandman929 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Far be it for me to defend anything at all about the development choices, but I remember before standardization there was a lot of complaining about classes having unfair advantages in one aspect or another.
So if we're worried about everything being the same now, we kind of asked for it.

People ask for things, but it is up to ZOS to decide how to implement things. Players cannot be blamed for asking that classes do not have unfair advantages. The decision to embark on the road to homogenization is all on ZOS.

I'd be curious to hear about the other ways of making all things equal

Players are not driving the car. We are rambunctious kids in the back seat. Half the time, we don't know where we are or where we are going. If we happen to arrive at some place that was requested, it is because the driver wanted to go there. The driver may have heard us, or maybe that was the destination all along.

We have no responsibility for the decisions, or design. We don't have to come up with "other ways" for anything. That is why they get the bucks and we don't get paid anything.

Jaraal wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please no. I loved EQ1, but being forever locked to one role per class was terrible.

That's why you logged on to a different character to play whatever class was needed at the moment. It promoted game longevity, because if you wanted to be good at a different role, you had to actually level that role. ESO is heading to a point where any class is sufficient for any role. So why would you want to spend time (and money) leveling another character when the one you're playing right now is all you need to complete any content?

This is why I do not like the homogenization going on. I am OK with "jack of all trades, master of none" decisions. I can deal with "any class, any role" but don't want it to be "every class, same in role".

Jazraena

Jaraal wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please no. I loved EQ1, but being forever locked to one role per class was terrible.

That's why you logged on to a different character to play whatever class was needed at the moment. It promoted game longevity, because if you wanted to be good at a different role, you had to actually level that role. ESO is heading to a point where any class is sufficient for any role. So why would you want to spend time (and money) leveling another character when the one you're playing right now is all you need to complete any content?

Ah yes, I reach max level and find out I really don't enjoy what the class does in raids. Or that I can't solo. Or anything related to high level play.

Then I do another char, because I think I will enjoy that more... or will I?

Sorry, I prefer the swift levelling and flexibility ESO offers to EQ1 any day, cool as I found the classes themselves.

MindOfTheSwarm

Sandman929 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Far be it for me to defend anything at all about the development choices, but I remember before standardization there was a lot of complaining about classes having unfair advantages in one aspect or another.
So if we're worried about everything being the same now, we kind of asked for it.

People ask for things, but it is up to ZOS to decide how to implement things. Players cannot be blamed for asking that classes do not have unfair advantages. The decision to embark on the road to homogenization is all on ZOS.

I'd be curious to hear about the other ways of making all things equal

Things shouldn’t be equal. But things shouldn’t be so out of whack that classes have unfair advantages.

Caribou77

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Warden still has the awful Scorch timing changes - PLEASE REVERT THIS.

I strongly second this.

Deep fissure is the ONLY skill magden has in PVP that can burst damage.

Magden struggles hard in PVP.

The proposed changes to Deep Fissure will make it unplayable.

Please revert Deep Fissure.

iaminc

ESO is an 8 year beta test paid for by the players.

Embarrassing.

Scrap the changes and take a good long look at what the game actually needs instead of rolling a dice on what to change every 3 months.

francesinhalover

To help make dots easier to handle.


Just make aoe dots 10 secs and single target 20 secs
and make passives that increase dot duration instead increase dmg 1 sec = 2% dmg for the dot

blockade morph increases duration by 4 seconds, well now it gives 8% extra dmg, same for dk passives and mages guild.

so many skills have weird dot durations, entropy , scalding runes , trap beast , dk skills

BretonMage

francesinhalover wrote: »

Just make aoe dots 10 secs and single target 20 secs
and make passives that increase dot duration instead increase dmg 1 sec = 2% dmg for the dot

Please, no. I have a 33s buff on my backbar with a 10s AOE next to a 20s sticky DOT, next to a 10s shield. It's a nightmare trying to keep track of the different DOTs, seriously really stressful. They should just revert all DOT changes.

or just revert the whole update.

Yes.

francesinhalover

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People are complain simply because they cannot achieve as high DPS as before, wouldn't the solution to fix this to simply make all Fire and Forget abilities stronger?

If Eviscerate, Scythe, Concealed Weapon, Cryystal Frags do 8000 damage on live it could do 12000 damage in U35, that sort of thing.

people complain because healing got murdered, rotations are all harder to pull of since all the dot timers have been messed with and are inconsistent,skill reworks that murder skills.
jabs, flurry animations

anvilbert

This whole update is trash. Just like the nerfs from the 3600 cp change . Finaly climb back up to 69k dps just to get knocked back into the dumpster again with this u35 update makes me want to just stop playing ,tired of this BS. I refuse to remake and redu all of my characters just to complete normal content much less vet content. Hard modes are going to be on another planet out of reach.

francesinhalover

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Caff32 wrote: »

Stop. Looking. At. Spreadsheets.
Start. Listening. To. Your. Players.
WE. DON'T. WANT. THESE. CHANGES.

^ This needs to be stickied somehow.

In the beginning i was Depressed but there was a slight happiness because i wanted durations to be more consistent like all durations around 12-16 seconds to make rotations easier, but now? oh god... I'm not even sure what skills to use...

francesinhalover

anvilbert wrote: »

This forum is meaningless if the dev's are going to totally ignore the player base who keep telling them repeatedly that they are making the biggest mistake ever in its gameplay. I could care less about pvp combat, what I care about is the pve part of the game. You keep changing and nerfing everyone for the sake of combat performance. Separate the two and leave pve alone. AGAIN IF YOU CONTINUE TO IGNNORE US THE PLAYERS THIS FORUM IS POINTLESS.

don't worry, same is happening on reddit

PrincessOfThieves

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome. Finally, thank you all for your patience and time in helping up improve upon these areas. May your roads lead to warm sands.

There is one important thing about ESO that cannot be calculated with spreadsheets. It's the game's community. ESO has one of the best mmo communities, and for many people (myself included) it's one of its biggest selling points.This patch is incredibly destructive for this community. I'm not sure if ESO community can recover if this patch goes live, we're already losing a lot of experienced players.
This is why I believe that this patch must be scrapped completely even if you honestly think that it would make the game more balanced. Dungeons and raiding aren't only about numbers, having fun is more important. And it's not fun to see groups being disbanded left and right and friends leaving.

francesinhalover

Cheyenne wrote: »

As some others have said, changes based on numbers on a spreadsheet don't equal fun gameplay. It's too analytical. This pertains to a lot of aspects of the game. I imagine all these questions get asked internally like why do some people do dungeons, trials, or PVP and some don't, why do some people buy this and not that (in game and on the store), why do some people do housing and others don't, why do people do or don't do/use or don't use <insert any activity/skill/item/etc. in the game>? You can't get the "why" answers from those numbers alone.

So why do some people do things/run things/wear things/buy things? Maybe it's just fun to that person. Maybe it's for power or speed or looks. Maybe it's for the challenge. Maybe it's relaxing. Why don't people run this, buy this, or do this or that? Maybe it's because to that person, it isn't fun or it's too expensive or it's ugly or they don't enjoy that part of the game for their own personal reasons/too hard/too easy. Maybe they're tired of dealing with RNG. Again, you can't get those answers/reasons from a spreadsheet. You also can't force people into doing any of those things without backlash because at the end of the day, games should be FUN.

I also see mentioned above risk/reward and in the past have seen "players need to make a choice" as to why some changes are made. It's a game. People want to have fun. I keep using that word, but games generally equate with fun. Devs seem to think everyone finds being forced to sacrifice something for another thing fun. I'm sure many people do like that, having to pick one thing over the other, but I'm sure many others don't find that fun and just want to play how they want with skills they enjoy for whatever their personal reason.

I'm trying not to go on and on here, but seriously. Maybe coming up with some questions about various aspects of gameplay and actually polling your players (not on the forums but through emails tied to accounts) would go a long way in finding out what your players actually enjoy and why.

TLDR version (cause I like words):
Players aren't robots to be analyzed through spreadsheets and numbers regardless of what aspect of the game you're getting those numbers from. The "why" part of the equation is missing, and decisions shouldn't be made based on assumptions about numbers.

the reason people don't do trials or dungeons isn't the dps or how hard the rotations are.

it's just that they are game modes that are frustrating for the average player. insta kill mechanics, having to look for groups, the social aspect , having to learn mechanics, it's all a huge headache.

they could add auto light attacks, give players 200k dps, even give them 1min dots and many players would still avoid vet dlc dungs and vet trials