High Isle's frustrating Warden changes are a disappointing step back.

McTaterskins

Have not had time to read through this whole thread but it interests me.

In recent testing, I find the warden to be lacking in burst heal capability vs. other classes unless dumping the majority of their resources and slots into max hp. (Which is fine if you're a PvE tank doing an HP build, but..)

Green balance tree isn't doing so hot.

I have no real feelings on the bear changes etc. - I'm either tanking or pvp'ing on my wardens. I tried healer for a bit but just defaulted back to templar and/or necro (cuz its fun), as they're more equipped in general nowadays.

Mr_Stach

I don't hear too much feedback on Warden Healer, so I guess I don't know what it needs

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I don't hear too much feedback on Warden Healer, so I guess I don't know what it needs

I think in terms of group healing it's fine, maybe too good. I think they should do more things like what they did with nb's refreshing path, giving it a buff that enchanted growth gives.

Mr_Stach

I actually really liked what they did with Refreshing Path, I would love if Zos did some tweaks like that for Warden. Maybe some CC Morphs in the Green Balance Tree would be a breath of fresh air

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I actually really liked what they did with Refreshing Path, I would love if Zos did some tweaks like that for Warden. Maybe some CC Morphs in the Green Balance Tree would be a breath of fresh air

I think more of warden healer specific major and minor buffs should be shared around to more classes. Especially dk healer.

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I actually really liked what they did with Refreshing Path, I would love if Zos did some tweaks like that for Warden. Maybe some CC Morphs in the Green Balance Tree would be a breath of fresh air

I think more of warden healer specific major and minor buffs should be shared around to more classes. Especially dk healer.

Definitely, I think it's nice that classes have access to unique buffs but there should be much more universal buffs for healers to dish out

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I actually really liked what they did with Refreshing Path, I would love if Zos did some tweaks like that for Warden. Maybe some CC Morphs in the Green Balance Tree would be a breath of fresh air

I think more of warden healer specific major and minor buffs should be shared around to more classes. Especially dk healer.

Definitely, I think it's nice that classes have access to unique buffs but there should be much more universal buffs for healers to dish out

I think minor vuln needs more easy sources on other classes too. Eg, sorc's ll should always proc concussed imo.

veznan5

If I could change the guardian morphs, I'd keep the different damage types (mag/phys) but change the effects of the morphs to make it so that whenever the bear attacks it restores resources to the player depending on the morph, magika for magic morph and stamina for physical morph. This would make both morphs viable depending on the build.
Not sure how balanced something like this would be though.

Mr_Stach

I mean just having any animal companion skill equipped gives you +12% Stam/Mag Recovery.

But I wouldn't mind if they tweaked the passive though, damage dealt from an Animal Companion Skill restores 650 stam/mag whichever is higher, has a 5 second cd

ESO_Nightingale

veznan5 wrote: »

If I could change the guardian morphs, I'd keep the different damage types (mag/phys) but change the effects of the morphs to make it so that whenever the bear attacks it restores resources to the player depending on the morph, magika for magic morph and stamina for physical morph. This would make both morphs viable depending on the build.
Not sure how balanced something like this would be though.

We need better sustain in pvp as well. Tbh I'd make it so that nature's gift's proc condition can work on self so we can sustain by healing ourselves with it.

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

veznan5 wrote: »

If I could change the guardian morphs, I'd keep the different damage types (mag/phys) but change the effects of the morphs to make it so that whenever the bear attacks it restores resources to the player depending on the morph, magika for magic morph and stamina for physical morph. This would make both morphs viable depending on the build.
Not sure how balanced something like this would be though.

We need better sustain in pvp as well. Tbh I'd make it so that nature's gift's proc condition can work on self so we can sustain by healing ourselves with it.

That would be pretty Rad. Also wouldn't mind if Betty Netch returned just a bit more as well.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

veznan5 wrote: »

If I could change the guardian morphs, I'd keep the different damage types (mag/phys) but change the effects of the morphs to make it so that whenever the bear attacks it restores resources to the player depending on the morph, magika for magic morph and stamina for physical morph. This would make both morphs viable depending on the build.
Not sure how balanced something like this would be though.

We need better sustain in pvp as well. Tbh I'd make it so that nature's gift's proc condition can work on self so we can sustain by healing ourselves with it.

That would be pretty Rad. Also wouldn't mind if Betty Netch returned just a bit more as well.

That would also be fine.

Mr_Stach

I definitely think that the Nature's Gift applying to ourselves would be fantastic, these days I'm always running Lotus so just that would probably help sustain a bunch.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I definitely think that the Nature's Gift applying to ourselves would be fantastic, these days I'm always running Lotus so just that would probably help sustain a bunch.

I feel like coming up with the most simple changes might be the most realistic thing.

Mr_Stach

That definitely true. With enough baby step we might get Warden to that good spot

Aldoss

Also updating that I'm currently not using netch because of how prevalent PB is right now and no other class has to make a choice between running a skill that gives an arguably required buff for all the game's content, some much needed sustain, but also purges a random effect on a time frame that is impossible to plan for.

Warden is the only class who can bomb themselves, through no control of their own (except for dropping a class defining skill), simply because someone light attacked them and the warden was too close to too many people when their netch pulls the unlucky number.

Plars can choose to drop their purify or not on the fly, depending on the situation and can heads up move away from a group to drop it. Teammates can choose to not use the synergy.

Necros can make the same decision on the fly and purge on their terms.

Wardens have 0 control over this and can sometimes suffer upwards of 6-10k damage with no opponent nearby, simply from an opponent light attacking them and their netch cleansing the effect during a moment when their team was stacked near them.

If magdens aren't allowed to be near their team because of this set, then we need some better direction and more tools that actually help the class stay alive on their own. There's a reason why most of the 1vx'ers are on dks, plars, or stamblades at the moment.

After maining stamden most of last patch, I'd argue that this one experience is not as prevalent on that flavor of warden. Stamdens are typically near the front of the battle, actually making some use out of their only good class stun (or dswinging for the bleachers) and are in a pretty good spot in this meta.

Does this need to be addressed immediately? No. This isn't some rage quit complaint or anything. I'm more than content to remove it and run pots to do almost what netch does, but without that one draw back. Yet, it just seems to add to this very extensive list of things that make magden seem so wrong and consistently fighting this uphill battle against the ZOS combat development team.

We're getting left behind and it's so tragic.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

Also updating that I'm currently not using netch because of how prevalent PB is right now and no other class has to make a choice between running a skill that gives an arguably required buff for all the game's content, some much needed sustain, but also purges a random effect on a time frame that is impossible to plan for.

Warden is the only class who can bomb themselves, through no control of their own (except for dropping a class defining skill), simply because someone light attacked them and the warden was too close to too many people when their netch pulls the unlucky number.

Plars can choose to drop their purify or not on the fly, depending on the situation and can heads up move away from a group to drop it. Teammates can choose to not use the synergy.

Necros can make the same decision on the fly and purge on their terms.

Wardens have 0 control over this and can sometimes suffer upwards of 6-10k damage with no opponent nearby, simply from an opponent light attacking them and their netch cleansing the effect during a moment when their team was stacked near them.

If magdens aren't allowed to be near their team because of this set, then we need some better direction and more tools that actually help the class stay alive on their own. There's a reason why most of the 1vx'ers are on dks, plars, or stamblades at the moment.

After maining stamden most of last patch, I'd argue that this one experience is not as prevalent on that flavor of warden. Stamdens are typically near the front of the battle, actually making some use out of their only good class stun (or dswinging for the bleachers) and are in a pretty good spot in this meta.

Does this need to be addressed immediately? No. This isn't some rage quit complaint or anything. I'm more than content to remove it and run pots to do almost what netch does, but without that one draw back. Yet, it just seems to add to this very extensive list of things that make magden seem so wrong and consistently fighting this uphill battle against the ZOS combat development team.

We're getting left behind and it's so tragic.

I'd like to see autopurge removed too in order to see more resource return or something.

Aldoss

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Also updating that I'm currently not using netch because of how prevalent PB is right now and no other class has to make a choice between running a skill that gives an arguably required buff for all the game's content, some much needed sustain, but also purges a random effect on a time frame that is impossible to plan for.

Warden is the only class who can bomb themselves, through no control of their own (except for dropping a class defining skill), simply because someone light attacked them and the warden was too close to too many people when their netch pulls the unlucky number.

Plars can choose to drop their purify or not on the fly, depending on the situation and can heads up move away from a group to drop it. Teammates can choose to not use the synergy.

Necros can make the same decision on the fly and purge on their terms.

Wardens have 0 control over this and can sometimes suffer upwards of 6-10k damage with no opponent nearby, simply from an opponent light attacking them and their netch cleansing the effect during a moment when their team was stacked near them.

If magdens aren't allowed to be near their team because of this set, then we need some better direction and more tools that actually help the class stay alive on their own. There's a reason why most of the 1vx'ers are on dks, plars, or stamblades at the moment.

After maining stamden most of last patch, I'd argue that this one experience is not as prevalent on that flavor of warden. Stamdens are typically near the front of the battle, actually making some use out of their only good class stun (or dswinging for the bleachers) and are in a pretty good spot in this meta.

Does this need to be addressed immediately? No. This isn't some rage quit complaint or anything. I'm more than content to remove it and run pots to do almost what netch does, but without that one draw back. Yet, it just seems to add to this very extensive list of things that make magden seem so wrong and consistently fighting this uphill battle against the ZOS combat development team.

We're getting left behind and it's so tragic.

I'd like to see autopurge removed too in order to see more resource return or something.

Yup. Exactly. If plaguebreak was going to be nerfed, they'd have done it by now. Plaguebreak is here to stay as is and, as is, it literally nullifies a magden and turns them into a ticking time bomb.

No other set in the game can do this to an entire class.

ZOS claimed this patch was going to be about skill updates and the refreshing of unused morphs. What we got was a buff to a skill no one asked for, a sideways move to bear, a shadow nerf to storm, arctic getting deleted, another reactive stun, and corrupting still being worse than budding.

These are tweaks. These updates are a new paint job on a car whose transmission needs to be replaced. Magden is laughably bad.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Also updating that I'm currently not using netch because of how prevalent PB is right now and no other class has to make a choice between running a skill that gives an arguably required buff for all the game's content, some much needed sustain, but also purges a random effect on a time frame that is impossible to plan for.

Warden is the only class who can bomb themselves, through no control of their own (except for dropping a class defining skill), simply because someone light attacked them and the warden was too close to too many people when their netch pulls the unlucky number.

Plars can choose to drop their purify or not on the fly, depending on the situation and can heads up move away from a group to drop it. Teammates can choose to not use the synergy.

Necros can make the same decision on the fly and purge on their terms.

Wardens have 0 control over this and can sometimes suffer upwards of 6-10k damage with no opponent nearby, simply from an opponent light attacking them and their netch cleansing the effect during a moment when their team was stacked near them.

If magdens aren't allowed to be near their team because of this set, then we need some better direction and more tools that actually help the class stay alive on their own. There's a reason why most of the 1vx'ers are on dks, plars, or stamblades at the moment.

After maining stamden most of last patch, I'd argue that this one experience is not as prevalent on that flavor of warden. Stamdens are typically near the front of the battle, actually making some use out of their only good class stun (or dswinging for the bleachers) and are in a pretty good spot in this meta.

Does this need to be addressed immediately? No. This isn't some rage quit complaint or anything. I'm more than content to remove it and run pots to do almost what netch does, but without that one draw back. Yet, it just seems to add to this very extensive list of things that make magden seem so wrong and consistently fighting this uphill battle against the ZOS combat development team.

We're getting left behind and it's so tragic.

I'd like to see autopurge removed too in order to see more resource return or something.

Yup. Exactly. If plaguebreak was going to be nerfed, they'd have done it by now. Plaguebreak is here to stay as is and, as is, it literally nullifies a magden and turns them into a ticking time bomb.

No other set in the game can do this to an entire class.

ZOS claimed this patch was going to be about skill updates and the refreshing of unused morphs. What we got was a buff to a skill no one asked for, a sideways move to bear, a shadow nerf to storm, arctic getting deleted, another reactive stun, and corrupting still being worse than budding.

These are tweaks. These updates are a new paint job on a car whose transmission needs to be replaced. Magden is laughably bad.

out of all of those i think that the budding/corrupting pollen situation might be actually okay now.

Aldoss

That's fair. I can get behind the "PvE morph" vs "PvP morph" style. It's still just so far from what needs to be done.

Mr_Stach

I think that the PvP vs PvE morph should be a more regular design choice, maybe that's how Zos finally gets actually good balance between pve and pvp.

Now granted that would extremely limit build variety, but I think balance would be preferable.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think that the PvP vs PvE morph should be a more regular design choice, maybe that's how Zos finally gets actually good balance between pve and pvp.

Now granted that would extremely limit build variety, but I think balance would be preferable.

still not a fan of the whole deep fissure situation.

Mr_Stach

Yeah, it would be cool if Sub followed the Engulfing Flames idea, enemies take increased Frost Damage for 10s.

Personally I feel like unique effects are more engaging than making a skill fill X roll.

Anti_Virus

McTaterskins wrote: »

Have not had time to read through this whole thread but it interests me.

In recent testing, I find the warden to be lacking in burst heal capability vs. other classes unless dumping the majority of their resources and slots into max hp. (Which is fine if you're a PvE tank doing an HP build, but..)

Green balance tree isn't doing so hot.

I have no real feelings on the bear changes etc. - I'm either tanking or pvp'ing on my wardens. I tried healer for a bit but just defaulted back to templar and/or necro (cuz its fun), as they're more equipped in general nowadays.

Is fungal growth and it’s morphs not a good heal to use?

Mr_Stach

I think Fungal is fine-sh, people just dislike the Cone.

I generally think Green Balance could use a bit of a buff though, just in the general value. Even Fungal Growth with the extra +15% close to you is still under the general tool tip for Breath of Life.

Also the Nature's Gift passive (When you heal an ally with a Green Balance ability, you gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina) does not apply when you heal yourself.

Arctic Blast/Polar Wind is comparable to breath of Life in value and cost but they don't proc any of the healing benefits of Green Balance, also they scale off Max Health making the heal extremely less potent unless you're stacking a ton of health.

So generally a worse self-healer in PvP.

Anti_Virus

Well for self healing fungal growth works well for me but yeah as a healer in a group it sucks for the most part.

ESO_Nightingale

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Well for self healing fungal growth works well for me but yeah as a healer in a group it sucks for the most part.

I'm surprised you think it works fine as a self heal. Because it's akin to trying to spam self heal yourself with necro's enduring undeath which isn't hugely effective.

Anti_Virus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Well for self healing fungal growth works well for me but yeah as a healer in a group it sucks for the most part.

I'm surprised you think it works fine as a self heal. Because it's akin to trying to spam self heal yourself with necro's enduring undeath which isn't hugely effective.

My tooltip heals are usually 14K not including crits, idk what you guys are doing to get low heal power from the skill but it can be effective

ESO_Nightingale

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Well for self healing fungal growth works well for me but yeah as a healer in a group it sucks for the most part.

I'm surprised you think it works fine as a self heal. Because it's akin to trying to spam self heal yourself with necro's enduring undeath which isn't hugely effective.

My tooltip heals are usually 14K not including crits, idk what you guys are doing to get low heal power from the skill but it can be effective

what are your numbers in no-cp?

Mr_Stach

Going into CP stuff, I like CP for the most part, being able to increase player power beyond lvl 50
However, a class should be good/complete without it. It should amp classes, not patch up design flaws.

Just my 2 cents on that subject.