High Isle's frustrating Warden changes are a disappointing step back.

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

The "Masters of Ice" not having access to Major Brittle in their class kit is really odd. Hopefully they get it after of course making it so it's more useful that Minor Brittle which it currently..... isn't. Because Crit Damage Caps.

It's been made a bit more useful with the cp nerfs.

Yeah but also the one set that does give it doesnt deal enough DPS.

It supposed to be a pvp monster set but I don't se where is the pvp part neither the pve with such low dmg and duration.

honestly i have no idea either. i they said it was supposed to be for area control but the radius is really small, so much so that people could literally walk out of it and in the initial design, it didn't even apply major brittle to enemies who couldn't be immobilsed. it was just a giant bruh moment.

But still if it was an area of control they expect ppl to wait inside 5 seconds if i don't miss remember in the aoe for being rooted??

For me it seems to have the same problem as artic blast nerf with the 5 seconds to stun.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

The "Masters of Ice" not having access to Major Brittle in their class kit is really odd. Hopefully they get it after of course making it so it's more useful that Minor Brittle which it currently..... isn't. Because Crit Damage Caps.

It's been made a bit more useful with the cp nerfs.

Yeah but also the one set that does give it doesnt deal enough DPS.

It supposed to be a pvp monster set but I don't se where is the pvp part neither the pve with such low dmg and duration.

honestly i have no idea either. i they said it was supposed to be for area control but the radius is really small, so much so that people could literally walk out of it and in the initial design, it didn't even apply major brittle to enemies who couldn't be immobilsed. it was just a giant bruh moment.

But still if it was an area of control they expect ppl to wait inside 5 seconds if i don't miss remember in the aoe for being rooted??

For me it seems to have the same problem as artic blast nerf with the 5 seconds to stun.

not sure why they decided to go for major brittle on a delayed area control monster set. bad initial idea and definitely not the greatest implementation. because it's either toxic or useless with no in-between with that design.

Mr_Stach

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

SEINTDARKNES

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

They introduced 2 shock monster helms in q1 with kargaeda and lady malygda and only 1 frost with nunatak. Something tells me that they have another frost helm planned for q3 since they've roughly been introducing frost and shock sets in equal amounts. Right now there's 4 shock helms and only 2 frost. We lack a purely offensive singlt target frost helm. so it's probably going to be something like that.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Seems that they've been focused on a split between frost tanking sets and frost dps sets. This explains q1's frost sets as well as systres' scowl in q2. I think we're essentially awaiting a purely offensive (probably single target) based frost helm in q3.

LeHarrt91

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

They introduced 2 shock monster helms in q1 with kargaeda and lady malygda and only 1 frost with nunatak. Something tells me that they have another frost helm planned for q3 since they've roughly been introducing frost and shock sets in equal amounts. Right now there's 4 shock helms and only 2 frost. We lack a purely offensive singlt target frost helm. so it's probably going to be something like that.

A ranged dps one would be nice

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

They introduced 2 shock monster helms in q1 with kargaeda and lady malygda and only 1 frost with nunatak. Something tells me that they have another frost helm planned for q3 since they've roughly been introducing frost and shock sets in equal amounts. Right now there's 4 shock helms and only 2 frost. We lack a purely offensive singlt target frost helm. so it's probably going to be something like that.

A ranged dps one would be nice

yep, ranged ST and purely dps focused would be nice. wouldn't complain about getting my crown idea on it either since that incentivises using as much frost dps as possible.

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

They introduced 2 shock monster helms in q1 with kargaeda and lady malygda and only 1 frost with nunatak. Something tells me that they have another frost helm planned for q3 since they've roughly been introducing frost and shock sets in equal amounts. Right now there's 4 shock helms and only 2 frost. We lack a purely offensive singlt target frost helm. so it's probably going to be something like that.

A ranged dps one would be nice

yep, ranged ST and purely dps focused would be nice. wouldn't complain about getting my crown idea on it either since that incentivises using as much frost dps as possible.

Yeah that idea of a mythic is amazing because you will get rewarded for using a pure frost build.

Mr_Stach

Now if only we had a nice Built in Frost skill line with useful passives and skills. Hopefully we can get some nice updates soon.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Now if only we had a nice Built in Frost skill line with useful passives and skills. Hopefully we can get some nice updates soon.

Well, for week 3 we have about a day and a half left until we find out if zenimax listened.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

For whatever reason Zos is really into this idea of Frost Effects needing to have a build-up, and while thematically it kind of matches with how Ice and Frostbite are irl, in gameplay it's not a great experience, I think they should rethink how they present Frost Damage.

Agree they say a couple patches ago they will introduce new ways to do frost damage and i remember something as monster helms with frost too but that set isn't good for dmg, it seems to fall more in the perspective of ice been an utility tool for tanks or something like always.

They introduced 2 shock monster helms in q1 with kargaeda and lady malygda and only 1 frost with nunatak. Something tells me that they have another frost helm planned for q3 since they've roughly been introducing frost and shock sets in equal amounts. Right now there's 4 shock helms and only 2 frost. We lack a purely offensive singlt target frost helm. so it's probably going to be something like that.

A ranged dps one would be nice

yep, ranged ST and purely dps focused would be nice. wouldn't complain about getting my crown idea on it either since that incentivises using as much frost dps as possible.

Yeah that idea of a mythic is amazing because you will get rewarded for using a pure frost build.

i'd be down for any monster/mythic that did exactly that. it doesn't need to be specifically chilled execute, but what chilled execute does is works synergistically with the job you're already doing as a frost dps and adding dps ontop of it for doing that job by specifically wanting you to use more frost damage.

Urzigurumash

I like Nunatak in BGs, I'm not very experienced on the class but I've got a triple kill or two with it. I just wish Frost Impulse did something besides give Minor Protection, since we get that from Frost Cloak. Definitely tough to beat out the other two Impulses, especially with all the mDKs out there you're pretty likely to get some Afterburn ticks with Flame Impulse.

It's not atypical that some ground-based AoE things are useful only in BGs, and especially in particular areas in BGs, like the 3 side towers with the steps up from the main rink at Ularra. Back when Domihaus only gave 200 WD/SD it was uniquely good in small areas in BGs but not many other settings in the game. Actually I remember a starred MagDen ran that in BGs back then.

I definitely don't think a buff to Nunatak would break any scales though, just like it didn't with Domihaus.

Mr_Stach

Something else I've been thinking about is Sustain, honesty Warden has the damage, we hit like a truck but have terrible gas mileage.

We could do something like a passive that returns resources when we deal Frost/Bleed Damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Something else I've been thinking about is Sustain, honesty Warden has the damage, we hit like a truck but have terrible gas mileage.

We could do something like a passive that returns resources when we deal Frost/Bleed Damage.

In this regard they could just make our heals more effective so we don't have to spam them 40 times in order to heal as much as what other classes do in 1 cast. As well as adjust betty's restore and buff our animal companions slotted sustain passive, or they could reduce some costs in general.

SEINTDARKNES

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Something else I've been thinking about is Sustain, honesty Warden has the damage, we hit like a truck but have terrible gas mileage.

We could do something like a passive that returns resources when we deal Frost/Bleed Damage.

We hit like a truck but we hit like a truck in slow motion xD

We hit kinda hard but with all the healing sometimes i don't see health bars move.

Mr_Stach

LOL Kind like this sometimes:



I feel it real bad against DKs, but I think they have Survivability cranked up to 20 but they still hit real hard too.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

LOL Kind like this sometimes:



I feel it real bad against DKs, but I think they have Survivability cranked up to 20 but they still hit real hard too.

dks are definitely overtuned at the moment, i wonder what they're going to do to address them without doing too little, or too much.

ESO_Nightingale

Well everyone. The pts servers have just gone down. I seriously hope they made some beneficial changes. see you all in less than 8 hours.

Mr_Stach

I'm not expecting a bunch of sweeping changes this Pts, but if they tweaked say Artic Blast to be more offensive or be an On Demand Stun, that would be great

Skjaldbjorn

As someone who has mained Warden since they released, I generally agree there needs to be better balance between the bears, as well as the birbs. I think shalks being raw damage vs utility that gives access to AoE minor breach for tanks is probably fine and a valid change to help make Warden tanks more competitive at least in a small way.

However, the main thing I am noticing, at least from a PVE perspective, is people stuck in their ways in a sense. To me, the idea of "Stamden" or "Magden" is dead. We're just Wardens. Yes, you have a primary resource, that's your choice based on your build and medium or light works famously, and will work even better next patch. For years we've wanted more open-ended, free builds that allow us to play the class, not a "build", and they've actually done a brilliant job of that.

As a former "Stamden" I am quite happy to have 3-4 Mag skills on my bars. I think it's neat and a refreshing change of pace from trying to pigeon-hole stam skills that under perform because of some random weird "distinction" that never made sense to start with. We're all Wardens. All of our skills should be viable and functional at least in some capacity regardless of what resource we choose as our primary.

We're finally seeing that, and I think we should actually be applauding Zos for that a lot more than we are. Yes, there are balance issues. Yes, the bears are really just "swapping places" and that needs to be addressed for sure, but the overall health of the game where Class Identity has actually become Class Identity is a glorious directional shift, and one we need to have immense patience with as they clean up and sort out the rest of the path.

EDIT: I would also note that, in a similar case to Bear, the bugs morphs are incredibly one-sided. Yes, the Stam morph is a bleed and deals AoE damage, but it is paltry and laughable. Mag bugs decidedly crushes it in effectively all content, and unless you're running Dro'Zakar or are on a fight that is literally nothing but AoE, stam bugs does not have a chance in hell of beating mag bugs. So this isn't as one-sided as this post is suggesting. Mag bugs consistently dumpsters stam bugs by several k DPS.

Mr_Stach

I think that's some valid points, we've about reach fully Hybridization, the big difference is how you return your resources. That being said, You will still do more damage going all in for either Stam or Mag than doing any kind of split since it goes off the max stat.

Also, I just want to be an Icy Boi

Skjaldbjorn

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think that's some valid points, we've about reach fully Hybridization, the big difference is how you return your resources. That being said, You will still do more damage going all in for either Stam or Mag than doing any kind of split since it goes off the max stat.

Also, I just want to be an Icy Boi

You actually don't, really. I have mag DKs in full medium busting insane numbers with several stam skills. It scales off your highest max stat, regardless of which that is. So if your stam is highest, your mag skills scale off that. At least, that is the case from every bit of testing I and my fellow raiders have done. We have seen extensively higher results slotting the best tooltips over the "proper" morph regardless of cost type.

EDIT: To expand on this a bit, I ran over to the altar and messed with my Shalks morphs.

"Stam" Shalks: 14,448 tooltip
"Mag" Shalks: 15,595 tooltip

The only difference is the damage type, as Mag shalks benefits from our 10% damage passive. Despite the fact that stam is my highest offensive resource, both morphs scale equally off of it regardless of its listed cost type.

Mr_Stach

What I'm saying is even if you plan on using Stam & Mag Morphs, you really don't want to split your attribute points in both Stam and Mag, you go all in on one to get the highest possible damage.

This is also why I think that Warden should focus all it's damage into Frost and Bleed, this would require some skill changes for the Animal Companion build and a change to the Piercing Frost Passive, but I think it would be better.

Skjaldbjorn

Mr_Stach wrote: »

What I'm saying is even if you plan on using Stam & Mag Morphs, you really don't want to split your attribute points in both Stam and Mag, you go all in on one to get the highest possible damage.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. But yeah, that is the only "distinction" between Mag/Stam anymore. We're just Wardens now, and I am here for it. It's such a nice change.

Mr_Stach

I think it's funny because both morphs of Scorch had the Breach/Fracture on it, they took it away ..... and now we're back.

SEINTDARKNES

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's funny because both morphs of Scorch had the Breach/Fracture on it, they took it away ..... and now we're back.

Zos nerf wardens and they give back those nerfs, i think it's unfair because every class has change the core of some skills for the better or worse but wardens just keep going worse and worse.

Mr_Stach

Warden has always had an Uphill battle, people couldn't handle the extreme burst, so they nerfed it, people couldn't dodge the birds so they nerfed it, whoops Arctic Blast can actually stun people..... let's nerf it just to be safe.

Skjaldbjorn

Reflecting on all the changes over the last patches (I took a break for New World, so I missed a bit), I think the central problem plaguing Warden and has been for some time is their lack of a good, reliable, clean spammable. Stam birds is decent, but it weaves like a drunk elephant, has the delay in travel time, feels thematically absurd (throwing birds is just stupid, I am sorry) and hinges on an extremely inconsistent mechanic with brutally porous uptime even when maximized. Though, I do commend them for the Necro change buffing OB uptimes.

Mag birds, conversely, are just terrible in every way. If you're playing tight to the boss, they're just dogwater no matter how you spin it. I think the idea that's been circulated a lot (altering Arctic Blast) is not terrible, but also clearly not the direction Zos wants to send Warden, and specifically that skill line, which I kind of understand. I think the core resolution has always and will always be to fix the issue through birds, but I think it's going to require a complete and total overhaul of both morphs, and it may just not work thematically.

What melee Wardens need is, and I know this may be shocking, is a melee spammable. Something that weaves cleanly. Birds' biggest failure as far as its Stam variation is the clunky, cluttery weave. Far too often am I trying to LA weave and birds just double casts because of...well, I am not sure. Travel time? Lag? The position of Jupiter? Broken wing? I have no idea, but it's infuriating and I have actually moved toward looking at alternative spammables like Silver Shards for that reason. I think something closer to an animalistic rend/claw/tear/lacerate functionality would both serve better functionally and thematically. While we do often view that tree as actual animals, let's recall we suddenly gain wings by channeling that essence of warden-to-animal power. You could keep the OB trigger if the weave and delay was at least cleaner.

On the flip side, I think ice just needs to be embraced here. A consistent, spammable ranged attack with frost damage. Perhaps an increased chance to apply Chilled, or better yet, the only skill in the game that can apply Minor Brittle without a frost staff equipped to create a unique, fun dynamic. You could have it scale off offensive stats (spell/weapon damage, for example) to give the duration of Brittle so it's less efficient for tanks/healers to run it. Or perhaps the skill itself cannot apply chilled, but when connecting with a target that is chilled, it can apply Brittle without a frost staff. I am not entirely sure here what the solution is, but a frost spammable is really, really needed.

Either way, I firmly believe Warden's biggest issue is the underperforming, wonky, clunky spammables that not even veteran Warden players actually enjoy or want to run.

Mr_Stach

At this point, I've just been running Frost Reach with Master Ice Staff, it's actually Very Good. But I still want a good Warden based Spammable, if you somehow reworked Screaming Cliff Racer into a Good Frost Spammable, or the Mag Morph Animal Companion into Frost, we could pump more damage and make room for some Bleed Passives for the Stam Morphs.

I don't feel like a "Master of Ice" I feel like someone who uses all Destro Spells to pretend to be an Ice mage when there are Ice Mage NPCs that have unique abilities that are better than what we have.