High Isle's frustrating Warden changes are a disappointing step back.

Skjaldbjorn

I don't have a video clip of it on hand, but the animation for the Guild Wars 2 Ranger two-handed ability "Maul" is exactly what I envision for a Warden melee spammable. It's very similar to the Selene's animation actually, featuring a green "spirit bear" rising up behind the Ranger that slams down along with the attack. Considering all the Bear-focused thematics with Warden, simply re-purposing the Selene's bear here could actually work, as silly as it sounds. It would be a hell of a lot more thematic than throwing birds at stuff.

Mr_Stach

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't have a video clip of it on hand, but the animation for the Guild Wars 2 Ranger two-handed ability "Maul" is exactly what I envision for a Warden melee spammable. It's very similar to the Selene's animation actually, featuring a green "spirit bear" rising up behind the Ranger that slams down along with the attack. Considering all the Bear-focused thematics with Warden, simply re-purposing the Selene's bear here could actually work, as silly as it sounds. It would be a hell of a lot more thematic than throwing birds at stuff.

Oh yeah I remember that, the Ranger in GW2 is everything that Stam Warden should be right now..... but it's just not hitting the mark

KeiRaikon

That fact that this update will mark the 5th anniversary of Wardens release and the top 3 problems that have been stated nonstop since said release, Bird not being a great spammable, lack of an on demand stun, and more frost DPS skills (or even just one new skill) have not been addressed in the slightest pretty much tells me that they just straight up are not going to do it and its time to give up on Warden.

Mr_Stach

I mean I will give credit where it's due, they did add some great things to help out Stamden and the Hybrid changes are great. But There's a long way to go before I think Warden is where it should be

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I mean I will give credit where it's due, they did add some great things to help out Stamden and the Hybrid changes are great. But There's a long way to go before I think Warden is where it should be

Definitely. For the "master of ice" it sure doesn't feel masterful of said ice.

Mr_Stach

I think it's so Ironic that they said that in Week 1, it borderline pisses me off. Hopefully next week they come with news, or better yet just respond to one of our posts on it. We need some kind of response, what's the purpose of feedback or the PTS Forums if things just get ignored

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's so Ironic that they said that in Week 1, it borderline pisses me off. Hopefully next week they come with news, or better yet just respond to one of our posts on it. We need some kind of response, what's the purpose of feedback or the PTS Forums if things just get ignored

even a single word like "soon" would be better than the flat silence we've received so far. the changes in week 1 are so awful. they should not go live.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's so Ironic that they said that in Week 1, it borderline pisses me off. Hopefully next week they come with news, or better yet just respond to one of our posts on it. We need some kind of response, what's the purpose of feedback or the PTS Forums if things just get ignored

even a single word like "soon" would be better than the flat silence we've received so far. the changes in week 1 are so awful. they should not go live.

Don't really agree with that at all. While the Wild Guardian change just moves us back over there, does that really matter? We're all stuck on Eternal atm. If this is the first change/buff to the bears to balance them and a second will follow next quarter, that's fine.

The shalks change is just...fine. It has value, not really in PVE DPS, but for tanks it's actually not an awful change.

I think the Healing Seed change for Corrupting Pollen is actually really interesting.

For crystalline slab, I get a controlled stun is better than a reactive stun, but I mean, I think this is a fine change in a vacuum. It still serves its purposes of reflecting projectiles, all they did was add a bonus.

Frost Cloak is Frost Cloak. It's fine. More range is actually nice on fights where you might have a tank way outside relying on the healer's major resists.

Northern Storm to me is an ult for trash, PVP and scenarios where the bear simply isn't viable (which are few and far between). I don't think they ever intended it to be a top tier damage ult. Plenty of options for that. The utility is a lot of its power. It's now functionally Flawless Dawnbreaker, 10s longer duration, SIGNIFICANTLY more damage, grants Major Protection and slows enemies around you.

The one change I think is really bad and has a compelling argument is Arctic Wind. I don't PVP, but I never found it to be particularly "broken" or unbalanced in its previous state. Kind of a silly change overall, really. I know you've been hard on the idea of converting Arctic Wind to a spammable/DPS skill, but they have never given any indication they are interested in that direction, and it would make the mag birds effectively obsolete. I really think revamping the birds in general is the only way you're going to get to where you want.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's so Ironic that they said that in Week 1, it borderline pisses me off. Hopefully next week they come with news, or better yet just respond to one of our posts on it. We need some kind of response, what's the purpose of feedback or the PTS Forums if things just get ignored

even a single word like "soon" would be better than the flat silence we've received so far. the changes in week 1 are so awful. they should not go live.

Don't really agree with that at all. While the Wild Guardian change just moves us back over there, does that really matter? We're all stuck on Eternal atm. If this is the first change/buff to the bears to balance them and a second will follow next quarter, that's fine.

The shalks change is just...fine. It has value, not really in PVE DPS, but for tanks it's actually not an awful change.

I think the Healing Seed change for Corrupting Pollen is actually really interesting.

For crystalline slab, I get a controlled stun is better than a reactive stun, but I mean, I think this is a fine change in a vacuum. It still serves its purposes of reflecting projectiles, all they did was add a bonus.

Frost Cloak is Frost Cloak. It's fine. More range is actually nice on fights where you might have a tank way outside relying on the healer's major resists.

Northern Storm to me is an ult for trash, PVP and scenarios where the bear simply isn't viable (which are few and far between). I don't think they ever intended it to be a top tier damage ult. Plenty of options for that. The utility is a lot of its power.

The one change I think is really bad and has a compelling argument is Arctic Wind. I don't PVP, but I never found it to be particularly "broken" or unbalanced in its previous state. Kind of a silly change overall, really. I know you've been hard on the idea of converting Arctic Wind to a spammable/DPS skill, but they have never given any indication they are interested in that direction, and it would make the mag birds effectively obsolete. I really think revamping the birds in general is the only way you're going to get to where you want.

maybe i should specify that i meant the stun changes as well as the immense power of wild guardian which is too powerful rn. bleed dmg is good but applying hemo every tick is not balanced.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

maybe i should specify that i meant the stun changes as well as the immense power of wild guardian which is too powerful rn. bleed dmg is good but applying hemo every tick is not balanced.

In my testing it doesn't seem overly significant. Without that change I averaged ~78% hemhorrage uptime. With it, it's 99%. So effectively I gained around 21% hemo uptime in PVE. Meh. If anything, it's a massive buff almost exclusively for Magdens.

EDIT: Glancing at my CMX, in actual content, I've sustained upwards of 85% hemo uptime in current live. Tbh, this is basically a "Magden" buff.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

maybe i should specify that i meant the stun changes as well as the immense power of wild guardian which is too powerful rn. bleed dmg is good but applying hemo every tick is not balanced.

In my testing it doesn't seem overly significant. Without that change I averaged ~78% hemhorrage uptime. With it, it's 99%. So effectively I gained around 21% hemo uptime in PVE. Meh. If anything, it's a massive buff almost exclusively for Magdens.

yes it is. our bear dps goes up roughly from 15% on eternal to 18% on wild. they just completely reversed the problem because now eternal is so niche it's effectively useless. While at the same time making bear even more of our dps when we already don't have legitimate pve ultimate options other than bear.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

maybe i should specify that i meant the stun changes as well as the immense power of wild guardian which is too powerful rn. bleed dmg is good but applying hemo every tick is not balanced.

In my testing it doesn't seem overly significant. Without that change I averaged ~78% hemhorrage uptime. With it, it's 99%. So effectively I gained around 21% hemo uptime in PVE. Meh. If anything, it's a massive buff almost exclusively for Magdens.

yes it is. our bear dps goes up roughly from 15% on eternal to 18% on wild. they just completely reversed the problem because now eternal is so niche it's effectively useless. While at the same time making bear even more of our dps when we already don't have legitimate pve ultimate options other than bear.

Is that markedly different from any other class? DKs don't really have options other than Banner. Sorcs don't really have options other than Atro. Necros don't really have options other than Colo. I mean, we all have access to shared ultimate options like DB, Destro, Meteor, etc. But outside of that, each class has one definitively strong DPS ult and not much else. Templars and Wardens both get a utility ult too. Hell, Warden has two utility ults that are actually useful. We're honestly ahead of the game.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

maybe i should specify that i meant the stun changes as well as the immense power of wild guardian which is too powerful rn. bleed dmg is good but applying hemo every tick is not balanced.

In my testing it doesn't seem overly significant. Without that change I averaged ~78% hemhorrage uptime. With it, it's 99%. So effectively I gained around 21% hemo uptime in PVE. Meh. If anything, it's a massive buff almost exclusively for Magdens.

yes it is. our bear dps goes up roughly from 15% on eternal to 18% on wild. they just completely reversed the problem because now eternal is so niche it's effectively useless. While at the same time making bear even more of our dps when we already don't have legitimate pve ultimate options other than bear.

Is that markedly different from any other class? DKs don't really have options other than Banner. Sorcs don't really have options other than Atro. Necros don't really have options other than Colo. I mean, we all have access to shared ultimate options like DB, Destro, Meteor, etc. But outside of that, each class has one definitively strong DPS ult and not much else. Templars and Wardens both get a utility ult too. Hell, Warden has two utility ults that are actually useful. We're honestly ahead of the game.

our power is way too spread into the bear compared to what other classes have, and they also don't have to use both slots for it. bear is almost entirely single target focused as well meaning we can't use an aoe burst DoT like destro ulti on packs. it's not balanced.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

our power is way too spread into the bear compared to what other classes have, and they also don't have to use both slots for it. bear is almost entirely single target focused as well meaning we can't use an aoe burst DoT like destro ulti on packs. it's not balanced.

The last time we complained we had too much power in the bear, they nerfed the bear, buffed our scaling damage passive, then nerfed that passive without ever reverting the bear nerfs. Careful what you wish for.

While true it's a double-slot ulty, it's also effectively the highest damage ult in the game aside from destro, especially on single target. We have other options for AoE - for example, I run destro back bar for trash in trials. It's not a big issue. AoE is one of the strongest portions of our kit, with Shalks and Winters both being two of the heaviest AoEs in the game.

Right now in PVE content like trials, when using bear, our AoE damage only trails behind DK and Necro, and even then, not by a particularly large amount. Being 3rd in AoE seems pretty reasonable for having the highest ST ult in the game, especially considering DK and Necro have basically no options beyond their core ult. Necros are using FB/Meteor since most have moved away from staves and groups are finding alternative sources of major vuln.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

our power is way too spread into the bear compared to what other classes have, and they also don't have to use both slots for it. bear is almost entirely single target focused as well meaning we can't use an aoe burst DoT like destro ulti on packs. it's not balanced.

The last time we complained we had too much power in the bear, they nerfed the bear, buffed our scaling damage passive, then nerfed that passive without ever reverting the bear nerfs. Careful what you wish for.

While true it's a double-slot ulty, it's also effectively the highest damage ult in the game aside from destro, especially on single target. We have other options for AoE - for example, I run destro back bar for trash in trials. It's not a big issue. AoE is one of the strongest portions of our kit, with Shalks and Winters both being two of the heaviest AoEs in the game.

Right now in PVE content like trials, when using bear, our AoE damage only trails behind DK and Necro, and even then, not by a particularly large amount. Being 3rd in AoE seems pretty reasonable for having the highest ST ult in the game, especially considering DK and Necro have basically no options beyond their core ult. Necros are using FB/Meteor since most have moved away from staves and groups are finding alternative sources of major vuln.

Hmm these are good points. But even still, the change to wild completely reverses the initial problem of eternal being just the best choice regardless of situation. eternal at the very least should have some other niche so it can compete with wild.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hmm these are good points. But even still, the change to wild completely reverses the initial problem of eternal being just the best choice regardless of situation. eternal at the very least should have some other niche so it can compete with wild.

I don't disagree, but I think crying "bear too good" will just see us nerfed for no good reason. It's a very mild "Stamden" buff, and a reasonably strong "Magden" buff that hurts neither side. Which bear we use is honestly irrelevant. "Mag" bear does more flat damage, "Stam" bear does more bleed. It may turn out that Stam-focused Wardens use the mag morph because the damage gain is still higher. That will require testing. Hemo is really easy to apply as Stamden even without birds.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hmm these are good points. But even still, the change to wild completely reverses the initial problem of eternal being just the best choice regardless of situation. eternal at the very least should have some other niche so it can compete with wild.

I don't disagree, but I think crying "bear too good" will just see us nerfed for no good reason. It's a very mild "Stamden" buff, and a reasonably strong "Magden" buff that hurts neither side. Which bear we use is honestly irrelevant. "Mag" bear does more flat damage, "Stam" bear does more bleed. It may turn out that Stam-focused Wardens use the mag morph because the damage gain is still higher. That will require testing. Hemo is really easy to apply as Stamden even without birds.

I'll agree with no longer trying to push for a bear nerf. However i've tested it. Wild is better because they buffed the base damage by 5% along with making it always apply hemo and dealing bleed damage. eternal is just worse.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'll agree with no longer trying to push for a bear nerf. However i've tested it. Wild is better because they buffed the base damage by 5% along with making it always apply hemo and dealing bleed damage. eternal is just worse.

Did you test it on a stam-focused build that is meta relevant? Because basically, the Mag bear does 5% more flat damage. If the hemo uptime doesn't compensate for the 5% difference, Stam-centric Wardens will still use the "Mag" bear even if it's 1% more damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'll agree with no longer trying to push for a bear nerf. However i've tested it. Wild is better because they buffed the base damage by 5% along with making it always apply hemo and dealing bleed damage. eternal is just worse.

Did you test it on a stam-focused build that is meta relevant? Because basically, the Mag bear does 5% more flat damage. If the hemo uptime doesn't compensate for the 5% difference, Stam-centric Wardens will still use the "Mag" bear even if it's 1% more damage.

why would i need to test stamden?

look at the changes again:

Feral Guardian
Wild Guardian (morph):
This morph now deals 10% more damage, up from 5%, to ensure it deals similar damage to Eternal Guardian when you take the Piercing Magic passive.
This morph now converts the damage to Bleed Damage instead of Physical, and each attack applies the Hemorrhaging status effect. Wild.

after testing on pts the tooltip of wild is higher than eternal before the bonus hemo proc.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'll agree with no longer trying to push for a bear nerf. However i've tested it. Wild is better because they buffed the base damage by 5% along with making it always apply hemo and dealing bleed damage. eternal is just worse.

Did you test it on a stam-focused build that is meta relevant? Because basically, the Mag bear does 5% more flat damage. If the hemo uptime doesn't compensate for the 5% difference, Stam-centric Wardens will still use the "Mag" bear even if it's 1% more damage.

why would i need to test stamden?

look at the changes again:

Feral Guardian
Wild Guardian (morph):
This morph now deals 10% more damage, up from 5%, to ensure it deals similar damage to Eternal Guardian when you take the Piercing Magic passive.
This morph now converts the damage to Bleed Damage instead of Physical, and each attack applies the Hemorrhaging status effect. Wild.

after testing on pts the tooltip of wild is higher than eternal before the bonus hemo proc.

Oh, I thought it was 5% for Wild vs 10% for Eternal. Welp. Nevermind.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'll agree with no longer trying to push for a bear nerf. However i've tested it. Wild is better because they buffed the base damage by 5% along with making it always apply hemo and dealing bleed damage. eternal is just worse.

Did you test it on a stam-focused build that is meta relevant? Because basically, the Mag bear does 5% more flat damage. If the hemo uptime doesn't compensate for the 5% difference, Stam-centric Wardens will still use the "Mag" bear even if it's 1% more damage.

why would i need to test stamden?

look at the changes again:

Feral Guardian
Wild Guardian (morph):
This morph now deals 10% more damage, up from 5%, to ensure it deals similar damage to Eternal Guardian when you take the Piercing Magic passive.
This morph now converts the damage to Bleed Damage instead of Physical, and each attack applies the Hemorrhaging status effect. Wild.

after testing on pts the tooltip of wild is higher than eternal before the bonus hemo proc.

Oh, I thought it was 5% for Wild vs 10% for Eternal. Welp. Nevermind.

yeah, eternal is just much worse now. the respawn thing is such a minor morph effect that it honestly shouldn't even be a morph effect anymore. just rework it and make the base cast time 1.5s like other pets instead of 2.5s. should balance it out.

Mr_Stach

Enter, Arctic Guardian - Icy Bear fun time.



Alternatively they could make Northern storm good for DPS...... but it would need a sizeable buff to keep pace with Wild Guardian. Also maybe remove the Major Protection for Major Brittle or something.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Enter, Arctic Guardian - Icy Bear fun time.



Alternatively they could make Northern storm good for DPS...... but it would need a sizeable buff to keep pace with Wild Guardian. Also maybe remove the Major Protection for Major Brittle or something.

I wouldn't turn down polar guardian at this point. honestly wouldn't.

YandereGirlfriend

On the topic of Northern Storm... why does this morph need Major Protection to siphon away precious "power budget" from an ostensibly damage-oriented ultimate?

Others have noted this before but the perseverance of the random Major Protection on the skill is likely the biggest impediment toward its ascension to becoming a valid Frost Warden ultimate.

Leave Major Protection on Permafrost where it belongs, as that is the clear tank/group utility in PvP morph. Strip it from Northern Storm and reinvest those savings into cutting the price of the ultimate to 150 or else increasing the duration and/or magnitude of the ultimate's effects.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

On the topic of Northern Storm... why does this morph need Major Protection to siphon away precious "power budget" from an ostensibly damage-oriented ultimate?

Others have noted this before but the perseverance of the random Major Protection on the skill is likely the biggest impediment toward its ascension to becoming a valid Frost Warden ultimate.

Leave Major Protection on Permafrost where it belongs, as that is the clear tank/group utility in PvP morph. Strip it from Northern Storm and reinvest those savings into cutting the price of the ultimate to 150 or else increasing the duration and/or magnitude of the ultimate's effects.

in my opinion, it should be a clear class-based contender for destructive rage when you go to burn large packs of trash. major brittle on it would definitely help instead of major protection in this instance. but 150 cost would also help to get more ticks over the course of a fight, as well as prolong the duration of the 30s 300 wep/spell dmg buff. and in pvp it would just help it to become an option again.

Mr_Stach

It's kinda funny when you look at end game tank setups that ultimately only use like 1-2 skills from the Warden "Tanking Tree". Hopefully we can add some new perspectives for some changes sooner rather than later

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

It's kinda funny when you look at end game tank setups that ultimately only use like 1-2 skills from the Warden "Tanking Tree". Hopefully we can add some new perspectives for some changes sooner rather than later

i just wish they'd communicate with us on what they're doing. or y'know. do some changes or something.

Whiskey_JG

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Enter, Arctic Guardian - Icy Bear fun time.



Alternatively they could make Northern storm good for DPS...... but it would need a sizeable buff to keep pace with Wild Guardian. Also maybe remove the Major Protection for Major Brittle or something.

Omg i have been wanting a Polar bear for a long time. Ice bear should apply major brittle on casting bear ult. A while ago i had also suggested cosmetic changes where the "bear" would change form based on the race of your character to fit in with lore.

Ice skill line needs a good spammable, another good dot, an activatable/controllable stun and revamped ultimates. Especially since now eternal bear is the only choice. Buffing wild guardian is not really an option because it will just shift the meta. We need something useful and you would change morphs based on the content (encourage armory use wink wink*)

Mr_Stach

Well Wild Guardian did get buffed and will now outperform Eternal. It does more damage and applies Hemorrhage.

As far as Major Brittle, I think that would be a better fit for a Northern Storm Revamp. That way you could have a choice between a good Major Buff or the Chilled Execute.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Wild Guardian did get buffed and will now outperform Eternal. It does more damage and applies Hemorrhage.

As far as Major Brittle, I think that would be a better fit for a Northern Storm Revamp. That way you could have a choice between a good Major Buff or the Chilled Execute.

Agreed. Major brittle would at least give northern storm a niche.