Nunatak is an incredible disappointment 5 years in the making.

Solariken

Eormenric wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Just make the pool deal frost damage and each tick applies major brittle for 4 seconds. Let's not over-complicate it.

We're not over-complicating you; you're over-simplifying it.

We are making sure there is a balance between PvP and PvE use. An immediate, undodgeable 4 second Major Brittle would be overpowered. It would have people shifting to crit and impen where either someone gets blown up in 1 second or completely fine--actually not, since impen wouldn't do much with a 20% debuff... Your version would wide out a herd of people in Cyrodiil in <4 seconds.

Every other source of "Apply x debuff for x seconds" can be repeated nearly on CD and that's considered balanced right now: Ward of Cyrodiil, Durok's Bane, Affliction, Noble's Conquest, Bani's Torment, etc... The only big difference between application and cooldown is something like Lady Thorn (8s every 20s). How often do you see that set anywhere? I've seen it once. Therefore, Nunatak can't fall into the same trash heap with a 4s every 15s). It's not worth it. This is why we're saying scrap the whole Nunatak-Immob-Major Brittle thing and re-tailor it as a frost Encratis with Major Brittle on Icy Rage.

Why say, "Too complicated guys. Just do this." when you give no thought to the repercussions (read: inevitable complaints) in the future? We really don't need another Dark Convergence here.

Damage, cooldown, and debuff duration are all somewhat arbitrary variables that can be adjusted. I'm just saying the existing mechanic is overly complicated. It just needs to deal damage and reliably apply the debuff. I think you're being a bit hyperbolic saying this set will wipe herds of people in Cyro.

WrathOfInnos

@Eormenric I like where you're going with this, and I agree a monster helm tooltip should not require a specific weapon type (although arguably this is already in game with sets like sword singer and spider cultist). Maybe an elegant way to handle it would be "whenever you apply minor brittle to an enemy, they receive x seconds of major brittle, this effect can occur every y seconds." This doesn't tie the effect to a specific ability, but it does use a proc condition that can only be achieved with a Frost Staff. We already know that Minor debuffs can be proc conditions from sets like Icy Conjuror.

IMO more sources of crit damage are pointless as long as we have a hard cap at 125%.

Eormenric

@Solariken Of course they're arbitrary values. But the application of those values is not arbitrary. That is why we're saying this set is awful right now. If the set in its current form applied Major Brittle for 60 seconds, it still would be considered bad because no one is going to stand in that little square for 4 seconds. OP demonstrates that you can WALK out of it in 3 seconds. Given how everyone dodge rolls in PvP right now, they can escape it in 2 seconds. And this is provided they aren't running something that cleanses and makes one immune to snares and immobilization--which might cause the player to not even receive Major Brittle as it is tied to being immobile.

My response is not an exaggeration to your proposal of having Major Brittle immediately apply for 4 seconds. Consider this build: [Your] Nunatak, Vicious Death, Dark Convergence, Impulse Weapon Set, and a Glacial Colossus or maybe even Icy Rage ultimate. Not only is this grouping deadly right now, adding 20% critical damage on top really wipes everyone out.

ESO_Nightingale

Eormenric wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

They should just make the Major Brittle come first, make the set reward investing into frost. Then the snares and other effects come later. Something like:

When you deal direct Frost damage with a Frost staff equipped, apply Major Brittle to a target for X seconds. Dealing Frost damage to targets with Major Brittle applies a stack of Chilling Bite for W seconds, causing them to emit a frozen area that snares all enemies in the area by 25% and deals Y Frost damage per second. On gaining 4 stacks, all enemies in the area are immobilized for Z seconds. You can only apply Major Brittle once every V seconds.

In PVE, this makes the set useful for both trash and boss fights. The single target Major Brittle debuff is now the main draw to incentivise inclusion of frost staff users/frost damage in groups for boss fights, with additional cleave damage and soft CC added in for trash pulls. While I think some people may see this as a support set instead of a dps set, it's better than nothing. The uptime for Major Brittle can be controlled by changing the set cooldown.

In PVP, this could be something like a ranged harassment set than allows you to snare clumps of tightly grouped players, with a AOE immobilize bomb that goes off after 4 secs if they don't cleanse. Although with Plaguebreak I dunno how people will respond to yet another set that encourages purging.

Your idea is furthest inline with what they originally wanted out of the set--and I like it! The goal of splintering a PvP group while still having a big presence in PvE is brilliant! Though, current convention says it can't require a Frost Staff as that would be a Weapon Set 2.0 (coming soon! Since they already ran through all generic weapon skills...). At first I'd say change it to "When you deal damage with a single target frost attack", hoping that "frost attack" could be considered something different than plain "dealing frost damage". But if creating that new category isn't possible, let Frost Enchants apply Minor Brittle and have the set be this:

When you deal damage with a single target frost attack attempt to apply Minor Brittle, apply a stack of Chilling Bite for 8 seconds which deals 259 frost damage per second to nearby enemies within 8m and apply Major Brittle which increases critical damage taken by 20% to the enemy for 1 second per stack, up to 4 stacks. At 2 stacks, nearby enemies are snared for 50%. At 4 stacks, nearby enemies are immobilized for 3 seconds. The damage scales off the higher of your Maximum Stamina or Maximum Magicka. An enemy within 3m of you receives double stacks per Chilling Bite. An enemy that has reached 4 stacks cannot be inflicted with Chilling Bite for 10 seconds.

This way, it targets Ice Staves (and we'll probably see Frost Asylum Staves), Frost Enchants, Crystallized Slab, and Frozen Device--all things that deserve more use. I wanted melee to be represented as well, allowing this set to be used on Tanks, Dps, or Healers. Due to the expertise necessary to fully utilize this set, a 10 second CD seems appropriate--and per enemy due to the slow build up, but removing the per enemy may also be fine. Thoughts?

If Nunatak does remain holding Major Brittle, Icy Rage still needs to be part of the conversation. Hell, I'd even be okay with Icy Rage "Chilling the Air", causing all damaged enemies to take 4% increased frost damage for 4 seconds, stacking up to 5 times--and remove the immobilize effect.

Allowing frost enchants to apply brittle without an ice staff will kill frost dps. Not a fan.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Eormenric I like where you're going with this, and I agree a monster helm tooltip should not require a specific weapon type (although arguably this is already in game with sets like sword singer and spider cultist). Maybe an elegant way to handle it would be "whenever you apply minor brittle to an enemy, they receive x seconds of major brittle, this effect can occur every y seconds." This doesn't tie the effect to a specific ability, but it does use a proc condition that can only be achieved with a Frost Staff. We already know that Minor debuffs can be proc conditions from sets like Icy Conjuror.

IMO more sources of crit damage are pointless as long as we have a hard cap at 125%.

yep, as long as minor brittle stays as an ice staff exclusive debuff i think this is fair. even still, it'd be ideal if this set was just completely reworked, while they add major brittle as the frost based effect for icy rage instead. that'd be quite solid.

Eormenric

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Allowing frost enchants to apply brittle without an ice staff will kill frost dps. Not a fan.

Do you think frost enchant would become the new flame enchant with that change? My thought process behind it was to bring use to frost enchant in more places. Even I acknowledge the stretch to specify, "Frost Enchant only procs Minor Brittle for Melee Weapons and Ice Staves". Because then that'd open its own can of worms for enchants proccing differently depending if it's attached to a melee or ranged weapon. Or maybe a change like that would be welcome... I'm not sure.

That's why I wish something like Force Shock could proc "frost damage" sets but a "frost attack" could have to be pure frost damage.

Specificity might look like splitting hairs, but remember that that's exactly what they did with Elf Bane and Zaan's. We can ask the same thing for frost stuff.

ESO_Nightingale

Eormenric wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Allowing frost enchants to apply brittle without an ice staff will kill frost dps. Not a fan.

Do you think frost enchant would become the new flame enchant with that change? My thought process behind it was to bring use to frost enchant in more places. Even I acknowledge the stretch to specify, "Frost Enchant only procs Minor Brittle for Melee Weapons and Ice Staves". Because then that'd open its own can of worms for enchants proccing differently depending if it's attached to a melee or ranged weapon. Or maybe a change like that would be welcome... I'm not sure.

That's why I wish something like Force Shock could proc "frost damage" sets but a "frost attack" could have to be pure frost damage.

Specificity might look like splitting hairs, but remember that that's exactly what they did with Elf Bane and Zaan's. We can ask the same thing for frost stuff.

The frost enchant being able to apply brittle on anything other than an ice staff will immediately kill using ice staff as a dps weapon. As stuff like 2h and dual wield is far better. The enchant is only used by brittle support atm but the frost enchant would be used by dps if we had a set that increased the direct damage of chilled like my crown mythic idea. But the current chilled bonuses like frostbite or glacial presence are about uptime with the 4s duration. Being able to be rewarded for as much chilled proc as possible would mean that you'd want frost damage enchants over fire.

Eormenric

@ESO_Nightingale That's convincing enough for me!

I'll bring the conversation back to Nunatak. There's two ways to approach the ice staff usage. 1) Change convention and allow it to apply only via Ice Staff specifically. Or 2) Have Nunatak apply via Minor Brittle--which future-proofs the set if/when minor brittle can come from other sources.

I agree with the set @Contraptions suggested by having Major Brittle be single target with AoE pressure. Though I do find some errors in their initial suggestion. Only allowing x debuff to apply every x seconds does not exactly future-proof the set when major brittle exists in more sets than this. Secondly, direct frost damage can be found on AoE sources (Impulse and I believe Glacial Colossus) meaning this set wouldn't know which target to apply Major Brittle to, especially if it can only be done once every x seconds. If a boss had adds, it might miss its intended mark. Finally, this begs the question: Should this set be stackable for Major Brittle uptime? For a monster set, it's not a big ask. I believe Contraptions's set shows a stackable proc, which is why I tweaked it into this, helping it shine more in any role but really for frost dps. After so much deliberation, and making sure it aligns with existing set tooltips, I have this:

Nunatak
Applying Minor Brittle to an enemy also applies a stack of Chilling Bite for 8 seconds which deals 259 frost damage per second to all enemies within 8m and cannot refresh. Dealing single target frost damage to a target with Chilling Bite adds more stacks, up to 4. At 2 stacks, nearby enemies become snared by 50%. At 4 stacks, nearby enemies are immobilized for 3 seconds and the target is inflicted with Major Brittle, increasing critical damage taken by 20% for 4 seconds. The damage scales off the higher of your Maximum Stamina or Maximum Magicka. An enemy can only be affected by Chilling Bite once every 10 seconds.

This way, it is feasibly possible for an AoE source to apply Chilling Bite to multiple targets, but it could only grow in stacks when focused (I.E. via Force Shock, Destructive Touch, Frost Enchants, and Ice Staff LA/HAs)--except in the case of Crystallized Slab hitting a target, but I think that will be an uncommon thing even in PvP (where it is still balanced in my opinion). Additionally, it becomes possible to switch targets for Major Brittle, helpful in case a new priority emerges for dps. This gives frost damage higher AoE power and, as long as you're quick and have a frost enchant, you could apply Major Brittle to 2 targets in the span of 8 seconds. It also means if another party member has the set equipped, they can contribute to growing stacks, but it still has a hard limit on how often a single enemy can be inflicted by Major Brittle. This version of Nunatak is not specifically for Warden's either, but it really complements their strengths by adding a lot more damage and support under their belt. I believe this set can also be effectively used by all roles and other classes that want to pursue frost dps.

Measuring maximum Major Brittle uptime on a single target (correct my math if it's wrong...), if it takes 4 seconds to apply, last 4 seconds, and can be reapplied 6 seconds later for a proc cycle of 14 seconds, within 60 seconds it will be active 23.33% of the time. Is that good? Or does it need to last longer? Any thoughts on this version of Nunatak?

Tannus15

nunatak just needs someone to decide what it's for and make it good at that. if it's yet another tanking support set, fine, make it good at that.
if it's a pvp snare into immobilisation set, then make it good at that.
if it's a dps set, then make it good at that.

right now it's got that armour line and a group dps buff applied by the very common ice blockade run by tanks, except that buff won't apply to bosses or strong enemies so it's useless.

it's got a snare and moves towards an immobile combined with a debuff making it a good pvp set, except the aoe is tiny and the snare too small and the aoe too obvious making it the easiest thing in the world to avoid. you'd literally have to be asleep to not avoid it. what's the point of pvp functionality that only works on afk players?

the dps is lower than ice heart. nuff said.

LeHarrt91

Tannus15 wrote: »

nunatak just needs someone to decide what it's for and make it good at that. if it's yet another tanking support set, fine, make it good at that.
if it's a pvp snare into immobilisation set, then make it good at that.
if it's a dps set, then make it good at that.

right now it's got that armour line and a group dps buff applied by the very common ice blockade run by tanks, except that buff won't apply to bosses or strong enemies so it's useless.

it's got a snare and moves towards an immobile combined with a debuff making it a good pvp set, except the aoe is tiny and the snare too small and the aoe too obvious making it the easiest thing in the world to avoid. you'd literally have to be asleep to not avoid it. what's the point of pvp functionality that only works on afk players?

the dps is lower than ice heart. nuff said.

I agree, ultimately they just need to decide what the set will specialize in.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

nunatak just needs someone to decide what it's for and make it good at that. if it's yet another tanking support set, fine, make it good at that.
if it's a pvp snare into immobilisation set, then make it good at that.
if it's a dps set, then make it good at that.

right now it's got that armour line and a group dps buff applied by the very common ice blockade run by tanks, except that buff won't apply to bosses or strong enemies so it's useless.

it's got a snare and moves towards an immobile combined with a debuff making it a good pvp set, except the aoe is tiny and the snare too small and the aoe too obvious making it the easiest thing in the world to avoid. you'd literally have to be asleep to not avoid it. what's the point of pvp functionality that only works on afk players?

the dps is lower than ice heart. nuff said.

you're 100% right. we just cannot figure out what the point of it is. even if it's not a dps set (which would really suck but it's probably the case) it literally doesn't even do anything well. not tanking, not pvp. not anything. it's utterly confusing that they put this set up on PTS without a clear direction.

ESO_Nightingale

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Excelsus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Operation: Manage Expectations begins now

divnyi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

IMO more sources of crit damage are pointless as long as we have a hard cap at 125%.

Not pointless in PvP.

If only the set was usable in PvP tho.

Excelsus

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Operation: Manage Expectations begins now

I hate being right.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Operation: Manage Expectations begins now

I hate being right.

Yep. This is probably going to go live as is and no-one is going to use it.

Dragonredux

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Operation: Manage Expectations begins now

I hate being right.

Yep. This is probably going to go live as is and no-one is going to use it.

Most likely, they haven't acknowledged this thread or given any sort of response so I doubt they change anything for week 5.

Honestly don't know why the PTS exists at times.

ESO_Nightingale

Dragonredux wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright everyone. Lets see if zos took notice of our discussion. There is roughly 12 hours until at least the next set of patch notes

Operation: Manage Expectations begins now

I hate being right.

Yep. This is probably going to go live as is and no-one is going to use it.

Most likely, they haven't acknowledged this thread or given any sort of response so I doubt they change anything for week 5.

Honestly don't know why the PTS exists at times.

well, it looks like they're busy with 2h this incremental.

ESO_Nightingale

Looks like they fixed part of the tooltip, but not the atrocious set.

Excelsus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Looks like they fixed part of the tooltip, but not the atrocious set.

Once every what? Once every WHAT zos? How they hold us in suspense... at this rate just scrap the set and make it an outfit style instead so my Warden can FEEL like hes a good frost boi

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Looks like they fixed part of the tooltip, but not the atrocious set.

Once every what? Once every WHAT zos? How they hold us in suspense... at this rate just scrap the set and make it an outfit style instead so my Warden can FEEL like hes a good frost boi

"Once every and" Can't you read the tt? :P

Eormenric

If this set doesn't get massively reworked, no one is listening to our feedback and instead some stubborn person is going, "No! If-if they don't get that this set, this set right here, this set is god mode for a new crit-heavy pvp meta, then pssh, do they even pvp? I'm not changing it! I mean--we're not changing it..."

LeHarrt91

Hopefully we see a change tomorrow and get a clear direction the set is leaning towards, but I'm not holding my breath.

Daemonai

Like others have said, the design of the set seems to be conflicted.

* If it is a tank/support set, the damage should scale with Maximum Health.

* If it is a DPS set, the armor set bonus should be replaced with a DPS set bonus.

I do like the idea of using this set on my frost warden tank though for minor+major Brittle.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks for all the feedback on this set, everyone. Just wanted to make you aware that we've implemented a few changes to Nunatak in today's PTS patch, along with a Dev Comment so you have a better understanding of our vision for this set.

ESO_Nightingale

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on this set, everyone. Just wanted to make you aware that we've implemented a few changes to Nunatak in today's PTS patch, along with a Dev Comment so you have a better understanding of our vision for this set.

Thanks to the team and thanks for letting us know @ZOS_GinaBruno.

We'll be testing the set again today and will update this post again with our findings.

Excelsus

Well its something. Happy to have some changes and direction. Still unsure about the major brittle as a zoning tool. With malacath and impen reigning in pvp, the threat of more critical damage after 4 seconds doesnt seem that intimidating? No ones going to run screaming from the aoe and the only class that could capitalize on that is Nightblade so maybe a weird support role in ball groups. Bit disappointed, magden pvp is basically healer/support. Would like to see them reach DK/Templar levels of solo play. Actually had a guy in IC leave me alone and whisper me that I had guts to play a magden solo so he wasnt going to bother me.

Whiskey_JG

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on this set, everyone. Just wanted to make you aware that we've implemented a few changes to Nunatak in today's PTS patch, along with a Dev Comment so you have a better understanding of our vision for this set.

Thanks for this update. We will surely followup on this.

#motivated

let's get to testing again @ESO_Nightingale

Winstonshead

Why ZOS can't make good frost dps monster set?
Who needs major brittle? 12ppl groups already have 125% critical damage, so they don't need that

Halcyon_Kismet

Thanks to the ZoS devs for reviewing feedback and making changes based off of it.
I personally am excited to use this build in some of my builds I have planned.