PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

ADarklore

I'm always astounded when reading PTS comments... because players CONTINUOUSLY fail to realize that patch notes aren't for new ideas or changes... the PTS is for finding bugs or calculation problems. Once ZOS decides on a path, they very rarely EVER change from it. So what you see for changes IS what you're getting... regardless of complaints or your ideas for improvements/changes. The only difference is in the calculations of said changes may change as data is collected from PTS testing.

Yet, people continue wasting their time typing long detailed reasons why ZOS shouldn't do this or should change that, when this has never worked to sway them from their course. So I'm astounded that people still type paragraph after paragraph thinking that ZOS will listen... hint... THEY WON'T! The course is set, the only thing we can do is adjust our builds accordingly... and hope that perhaps in six months, or years... they'll realize it needs to be changed.

umagon

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm always astounded when reading PTS comments... because players CONTINUOUSLY fail to realize that patch notes aren't for new ideas or changes... the PTS is for finding bugs or calculation problems. Once ZOS decides on a path, they very rarely EVER change from it. So what you see for changes IS what you're getting... regardless of complaints or your ideas for improvements/changes. The only difference is in the calculations of said changes may change as data is collected from PTS testing.

Yet, people continue wasting their time typing long detailed reasons why ZOS shouldn't do this or should change that, when this has never worked to sway them from their course. So I'm astounded that people still type paragraph after paragraph thinking that ZOS will listen... hint... THEY WON'T! The course is set, the only thing we can do is adjust our builds accordingly... and hope that perhaps in six months, or years... they'll realize it needs to be changed.

Sometimes they actually do change things for the better. I think the real problem is with their code it seems that it isn’t easy for them to even make small changes to skills. It’s taken some years but power slam is actually good right now on pts. I remember years ago complaining about it and they did fix it same with giving night blades a class based heal and now a burst class based heal.

I think if zos is planning to continue eso for years to come they will need to just rewrite all the base code and make something like eso 2.0.

JoSePHRiNG

My favorite thing about the new "Max Stat" change is that they made healing in solo even better, which I like.

Stamina builds normally don't use offensive Magicka abilities unless they used "Max stat" (Soul Trap, Ritual of Retribution, Flames of Oblivion, etc.) therefore they always had a good portion of their Magicka pool left for the usage of these skills.

But now they can use heal or damage abilities with new changes since they will do the same damage regardless of Magicka or Stamina.

Can't say the same for Magicka, which is only used in spells and nothing more, Stamina can be used for running, blocking, dodging, etc.

LordeGian

Just opening up a new conversational path:





Wasn't that bad thinking?
The healing over time of this for multiple enemy targets can be extremely strong when used 1vx.
Just keep using LoS while the healing extends to all players and that's it! Exaggerated healings without the slightest effort.

katorga

LordeGian wrote: »

Just opening up a new conversational path:





Wasn't that bad thinking?
The healing over time of this for multiple enemy targets can be extremely strong when used 1vx.
Just keep using LoS while the healing extends to all players and that's it! Exaggerated healings without the slightest effort.

They could make the tooltip "heals for 1000% more after the 10th cast". Dunno about pvp, but pve, it is very easy to keep up on everything in sight. It will be the most powerful self heal in the game.

Always applies burning, so the cost is reduced ~33% because of combustion passive (.5s cool down).

DK has a total of 38% damage increase to the dot from class passives.

Gonna be crazy.

Tannus15

looks like dk jabs to me...

both DK and templar seem to have one skill that does literally everything now.

Vevvev

Not sure if this has ever been mentioned but the split of DK having Minor Brutality and Templar having Minor Sorcery will not work with the current system of having all sets giving spell and weapon damage whenever they have damage stats.

A DK would be running weapon damage glyphs on their jewelry after this change with Templar running spell damage glyphs on their jewelry. Since all abilities now scale with max stats, and all abilities that gave Major Sorcery or Brutality now give them both, you're looking at a weird shift in how these two classes will be building. Also it's basically buffing MagDK and StamPlar.

Tannus15

Can anyone confirm that the scaling is from your highest weapon or spell damage and your highest stamina or magicka?

as in, if i have high max stam and high spell damage that it's using both those values?

Firstmep

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm always astounded when reading PTS comments... because players CONTINUOUSLY fail to realize that patch notes aren't for new ideas or changes... the PTS is for finding bugs or calculation problems. Once ZOS decides on a path, they very rarely EVER change from it. So what you see for changes IS what you're getting... regardless of complaints or your ideas for improvements/changes. The only difference is in the calculations of said changes may change as data is collected from PTS testing.

Yet, people continue wasting their time typing long detailed reasons why ZOS shouldn't do this or should change that, when this has never worked to sway them from their course. So I'm astounded that people still type paragraph after paragraph thinking that ZOS will listen... hint... THEY WON'T! The course is set, the only thing we can do is adjust our builds accordingly... and hope that perhaps in six months, or years... they'll realize it needs to be changed.

Not true.
There separate thread for bugs, and separate threads for general feedback.
The dev willingness to make changes based on that feedback is another point entirely.

techprince

Venom Arrow needs 20 seconds of Major Brutality and Sorcery, not 10 seconds.

Fennwitty

techprince wrote: »

Venom Arrow needs 20 seconds of Major Brutality and Sorcery, not 10 seconds.

Or at least something longer than 10 seconds.

I can't figure out how to use Venom Arrow as a dependable source of Major Brutality from bow backbar unless I use the Barrage morph.

With the Endless Hail morph of 14 second duration, it's hard to balance the uptimes.

Fennwitty

Is this thread not getting bumped by replies?

Fennwitty

@ZOS_GinaBruno sorry to ping, I think something went wrong with this particular forum thread.

It's not getting bumped by replies, and it would be a shame for people to miss this thread exists.

francesinhalover

Would be amaxing if you could increase poison arrow or it's morphs duration

All dps weapon skill lines have damage over time skills that have fluid durations and makes them easy to use in rotations

A example

Two handed

Stampede (10sec) > Carve (12sec) keep in mind carve needs to be activated at around 11 sec to keep stacks

Now bow:
Poison Arrow (10sec) > Endless hail (14sec)

Thats a diference of 4 seconds

Poison injection/Venom Arrow (especialy Venom) duration buff of 3-5 extra seconds Would help so much

N00BxV1

Dragon Leap: please look into finally fixing this skill because it has been busted for a long time. It's 1/3 of the DK's ultimates and an iconic class skill that just doesn't work a lot of the time. It has similar issues like other gap-closers, but it also bugs-out literally displaying zero range on the tool-tip and then can't be used at all. There have been plenty of other reports about its issues so I shouldn't have to go into more detail.

Petrify: this skill needs some looking at because it also has the problem of not working consistently if at all. Maybe stop "graying-out" or disabling this skill (could be part of why it bugs and doesn't work?) and allow it to deal damage/heal even if the target is CC immune. Most other skills that have a CC component can still be used to deal damage regardless of the target's CC immunity, so why can't this skill do it too. The skill already costs a lot, has very short range, and when it actually works the damage is pitiful.

Protective Scale (Wings): I don't know what to say about this skill... Does anyone even use this skill anymore since it was neutered some years ago? Another iconic class skill that has been curb-stomped and then left in the dust.

I'm not asking for anything overpowered or game breaking. I'd just like for all of the DK's iconic and class-defining skills to be reliable, work consistently, and be worth using. And for the devs to have a little more finesse when making these changes.

PS:
I don't use PTS, so I can only go by what others are reporting. So forgive me if any of these issues are being addressed.

francesinhalover

Relequen tornado visual effect still hasnt been fixed.

x99KungFuTacosx

The new changes to the vampire skill blood frenzy and its morphs from PTS patch notes v7.3.2 should be reconsidered and IMO altogether abandonded. Since this is allegedly the feedback thread that devs will read, I want to make my case here.

Blood Frenzy:
This ability and its morphs now grant a stack of up to 30 Weapon and Spell Damage rather than 600 upfront, up to a maximum of 10 stacks.
Decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds, down from 1 (haha inverse math!) so the ability drains Health slower.
The health cost now increases by 250 Health per stack, rather than 20% of the cost of the skill with no cap.
Reduced the initial cost to 700, down from 1980.
Simmering Frenzy (morph): This morph now increases the Weapon and Spell Damage granted to a maximum of 40 per stack, rather than adding 66 Weapon and Spell Damage each second the ability is toggled on with no cap.
Sated Frenzy (morph): This morph now also reduces the ramping cost of the ability to 200 per stack, down from 250.

As many have noted in other threads , blood frenzy is one of the last vampire skills that is actually useful. This is a major nerf to the skill, requiring 20 seconds to reach even a small portion of it's original potential. The maximum (with shimmery frenzy) will be 400 weapon and spell damage, at a cost of ~3000 health per second, with a 20 second build-up to get there. There are three major problems with this:

1. This change vastly increases the health cost per weapon damage gained. Currently spending 1612 health per second nets 660 weapon/spell damage initialy, a ratio of about 2.5 health per damage point. After this change, the immediate cost/bonus ratio would be initially 700 health for 40 weapon damage or 17.5 health per damage point and at maximum 3000 health for 400 weapon damage or 7.5 health per damage point. This increased health cost per weapon damage would be, even without the total health costs and time associated with 20 second buildup, a MAJOR nerf for the skills.
2. The 20 second build up makes this skill useless for burst scenarios. Sneak attack builds would have to wait 20 seconds AND pay a cost of total 18750 health over this 20 seconds to get max weapon damage. This was a basic component of the risk/reward balance inherent in the shimmering frenzy morph, but by removing the high initial weapon damage boost of 660 you ensure that the risk is never worth the reward.
3. The fact that the vampire in question can receive no healing from other players for the entire duration makes this skill useless in both PvE and PvP. The amount of times you would have to toggle this off and on to min/max dps and survivability in pve would absolutely wreck a rotation, which is not worth it for 40 weapon damage per 2 second tick.

Given the above points, the skill is now a novelty that will almost never be used in content. Furthermore, let's take a look at the motivation for these changes:

This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions. In its current form, it feels too penalizing for the base Vampire experience to engage with in a satisfying way while also enabling an overwhelming amount of power for those who know how to use it properly.

If this were a regular class ability that all new players have access to before they learn the game at all, this might be an acceptable justification. Sure, we want all the class abilities to be straightforward and easy to use. That's fine. However, Vampirisim is not a class ability or a regular guild ability. It is something that players have to specifically seek out in game (or pay extra money for). It is not harmful to new players for a vampire ability to take some modicum of skill to use successfully. It's not part of the basic package that these newbies are using on a day-to-day basis. Nobody is crying about vampire abilities taking skill to use. We're all crying because vampire abilities (except for shimmering frenzy, prior to these changes) ALL SUCK. This was the last useful non-ultimate vampire ability that wasn't completely outclassed by other class/guild skills.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider rolling back some of these changes to blood frenzy and its morphs. If you really feel the skill needs a nerf, just take the initial weapon damage down from 660 to 400 (or pick your number) and leave the rest of the skill alone. If you insist on screwing over sneak attack builds with this 40 weapon damage per tick scheme, then you should allow the vampire to receive external healing (maybe reduced healing instead of a complete moratorium on external healing). If the real problems you're trying to address are with DK flame staff ganking (as some have suggested), then address DK class specifically, don't take away the last good vampire skill.

J0L0PPY

Could Concealed Weapon get a change? feels like it hits like a wet noodle.

Vevvev

Feel like the current change to Blood Frenzy is a bit... I don't know... weak?

I feel like the damage bonus from Simmering Frenzy is far too low when compared with just how Sated Fury works. Sated Fury is now going to be the ability you wanna leave on forever just to build up and charge an insanely powerful burst heal you can activate on demand, but Simmering Frenzy is just.... 100 more spell and weapon damage? Just a 100 more spell and weapon damage increase compared to what Sated Fury can do is absolutely silly, and I feel like it should at least be 200 more making it give 500 spell and weapon damage at full charge.

There has so be some reason to pick one morph over the other where both are competitive. 400 spell and weapon damage is less than what my Burning Spellweave set gives me.

MudcrabAttack

I noticed maelstrom dual wield went untouched, even with all the single target dots that opened up to go along with the hybrid thing, so I tested it. It’s still not just a little bad, it’s pretty bad, at least on necromancer, where I assumed the extra 15% dot buff might make it less awful

Ankael07

Anyone know if blastbone still not count as player sourced damage or not?

francesinhalover

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class change. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

I am hoping you guys will do another pass on skill updates in Week 3. Great changes overall, but:

1. Biting Jabs getting Brutality/Sorcery does not make sense in so many ways.

• This buff on a spammable skill just seems wrong. It seems like a limitation rather than an advantage. Other classes have longer lasting versions of this buff, usually at least 20 seconds.
• Magicka Templars would never use Jabs over Puncturing Sweep, so they never get this important buff? Seems less than ideal.
• All other classes (except Necros) get Brutality/Sorcerer applied to a base skill, not just a single morph. This ensures that you have the buff you need regardless of class specialization.
• I understand giving the skill something to make it stand out now that Savagery is removed, but I would prefer something truly unique rather than a major/minor buff. Why not play off a stacking element to reward players for landing all 4 Jabs on a target like 1% bonus crit chance per Jab, 50 weapon/spell damage per Jab, bonus Penetration per Jab, etc.?
• If going the standard major/minor buff route something for Templar tanks would be a nice addition: AOE minor main, minor fracture, minor mangle, etc.
• Better options for Brutality/Sorcery in order of preference for Templar would be (1) Rune Focus, (2) Solar Flare, (3) Backlash, (4) Spear Shards - lots of good options here!

2. Necros need Brutality/Sorcery too! Tell me this is coming in week 3 please?

3. Venom Arrow getting Brutality/Sorcery is a great idea for bow builds but the buff needs to be at least 12-15 seconds long. 10 seconds is too easy to accidentally drop if your rotation is not 100% perfect.

I would preffer the skill to give minor courage or that minor bonus from kinras.
Same with rapid strikes.

Because for major brut and savagery pots exist.

francesinhalover

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

In my opinion:

AoE DoTs should never be part of a single target rotation. They should start to become good and useful at 2+ targets. It never made sense that people were always building around AoE DoTs, even outlasting single target DoTs in single target fights.

I‘m happy when they’re gone and people resort to other tactics / builds.

when they nerfed them down to do this sort of thing in scalebreaker, everyone universally hated it. no thanks.

Because it was done poorly. There's still no reason why AoE DoTs are such a huge part of this game outside of AoE fights. It never made.

it helps with character identity imo. it's cool to be surrounded by fire/ice/arrows or whatever your class/weapon combo's visual effects are. when scalebreaker was as is everyone just used ST DoTs so it didn't look as visually interesting or cool. don't ask to remove the AoE DoTs from general use. they look good and feel good to use.

They look good and feel good to use? Yes, especially in PvP or trials where the entire screen is cluttered with visual effects and you can barely resemble your character.

Yes, they look nice. I don't disagree. But they're too prevalent, always have been. That's the biggest issue with AoE DoTs. Not that it's going to change, but it's still a poor design choice.

Complaining about aoe dot appearance when twilight conjured exists

francesinhalover

LonePirate wrote: »

I didn't see anything in the patch notes about where Light Armor is now a viable option in PVP. The great reduction in defense from Light Armor is not compensated by a matching increase in offensive output. Unless you're a Sorc who can blink away or a Nightblade who can vanish, you will continue to be shredded quickly in PVP if you're wearing Light Armor.

Penetration is one of the most important stats for pvp.

francesinhalover

renne wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

renne wrote: »

These threads need to be split between PvP and PvE, since all I'm seeing in this thread is complaints about how stuff effects PvP.

Because PvPers will have to deal with the broken stuff while PVErs are just gonna enjoy the power creep and get some easy trifecta runs in.

Except how PvE stuff gets nerfed through the floor because PvPers boohoo about X, Y and Z.

Game has always had changes hurting pve because of pvp balance.
I guess pve players can adapt better idk.
What i know is that pvp and pve should be separate. But that will neva happen.

VarisVaris

francesinhalover wrote: »

renne wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

renne wrote: »

These threads need to be split between PvP and PvE, since all I'm seeing in this thread is complaints about how stuff effects PvP.

Because PvPers will have to deal with the broken stuff while PVErs are just gonna enjoy the power creep and get some easy trifecta runs in.

Except how PvE stuff gets nerfed through the floor because PvPers boohoo about X, Y and Z.

Game has always had changes hurting pve because of pvp balance.
I guess pve players can adapt better idk.
What i know is that pvp and pve should be separate. But that will neva happen.

PvE had just as much of an impact if not more on PvP balance.
The most depressing example is Magnb which has been nerfed over and over again due to PvE.

techprince

Poison Arrow and Entropy should give Major Sorcery/Brutality at base for 20 seconds.

Irfind

All skills with Major Brutality/Sorcery:

2h Momentum and morph: 20sec prebuff
Dual wield Hidden blade: 20sec and 40sec in combat
NB Drain power: 20sec in combat
DK Molten Weapons: 45sec and 30sec prebuff
Warden Betty netch: 25sec prebuff
Mage Surge: 33sec prebuff
Templar Puncturing Strikes: 10sec (but its a spammable so ok i guess ?) in combat
Mage guild Degeneration: 20sec in combat

and Bow: Venom Arrow 10 sec in combat ... what ??? Please buff it to 20sec thx

francesinhalover

Irfind wrote: »

All skills with Major Brutality/Sorcery:

2h Momentum and morph: 20sec prebuff
Dual wield Hidden blade: 20sec and 40sec in combat
NB Drain power: 20sec in combat
DK Molten Weapons: 45sec and 30sec prebuff
Warden Betty netch: 25sec prebuff
Mage Surge: 33sec prebuff
Templar Puncturing Strikes: 10sec (but its a spammable so ok i guess ?) in combat
Mage guild Degeneration: 20sec in combat

and Bow: Venom Arrow 10 sec in combat ... what ??? Please buff it to 20sec thx

Id preffer 15 secs dot on venom harrow so it is easy to use with endless hail. But the dmg buff could stay for 25-30 like flying dagger

francesinhalover

been a great pts so far, i would be thankful if you could test a 5 sec duration increase on poison arrow. (Becomes 15 sec) so it can be used with endless hail(has 14sec)
Poison injection is a execute so no need for duration increases