PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Seraphayel

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

In my opinion:

AoE DoTs should never be part of a single target rotation. They should start to become good and useful at 2+ targets. It never made sense that people were always building around AoE DoTs, even outlasting single target DoTs in single target fights.

I‘m happy when they’re gone and people resort to other tactics / builds.

when they nerfed them down to do this sort of thing in scalebreaker, everyone universally hated it. no thanks.

Because it was done poorly. There's still no reason why AoE DoTs are such a huge part of this game outside of AoE fights. It never made much sense.

ESO_Nightingale

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

In my opinion:

AoE DoTs should never be part of a single target rotation. They should start to become good and useful at 2+ targets. It never made sense that people were always building around AoE DoTs, even outlasting single target DoTs in single target fights.

I‘m happy when they’re gone and people resort to other tactics / builds.

when they nerfed them down to do this sort of thing in scalebreaker, everyone universally hated it. no thanks.

Because it was done poorly. There's still no reason why AoE DoTs are such a huge part of this game outside of AoE fights. It never made.

it helps with character identity imo. it's cool to be surrounded by fire/ice/arrows or whatever your class/weapon combo's visual effects are. when scalebreaker was as is everyone just used ST DoTs so it didn't look as visually interesting or cool. don't ask to remove the AoE DoTs from general use. they look good and feel good to use.

Seraphayel

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

In my opinion:

AoE DoTs should never be part of a single target rotation. They should start to become good and useful at 2+ targets. It never made sense that people were always building around AoE DoTs, even outlasting single target DoTs in single target fights.

I‘m happy when they’re gone and people resort to other tactics / builds.

when they nerfed them down to do this sort of thing in scalebreaker, everyone universally hated it. no thanks.

Because it was done poorly. There's still no reason why AoE DoTs are such a huge part of this game outside of AoE fights. It never made.

it helps with character identity imo. it's cool to be surrounded by fire/ice/arrows or whatever your class/weapon combo's visual effects are. when scalebreaker was as is everyone just used ST DoTs so it didn't look as visually interesting or cool. don't ask to remove the AoE DoTs from general use. they look good and feel good to use.

They look good and feel good to use? Yes, especially in PvP or trials where the entire screen is cluttered with visual effects and you can barely resemble your character.

Yes, they look nice. I don't disagree. But they're too prevalent, always have been. That's the biggest issue with AoE DoTs. Not that it's going to change, but it's still a poor design choice.

ESO_Nightingale

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

In my opinion:

AoE DoTs should never be part of a single target rotation. They should start to become good and useful at 2+ targets. It never made sense that people were always building around AoE DoTs, even outlasting single target DoTs in single target fights.

I‘m happy when they’re gone and people resort to other tactics / builds.

when they nerfed them down to do this sort of thing in scalebreaker, everyone universally hated it. no thanks.

Because it was done poorly. There's still no reason why AoE DoTs are such a huge part of this game outside of AoE fights. It never made.

it helps with character identity imo. it's cool to be surrounded by fire/ice/arrows or whatever your class/weapon combo's visual effects are. when scalebreaker was as is everyone just used ST DoTs so it didn't look as visually interesting or cool. don't ask to remove the AoE DoTs from general use. they look good and feel good to use.

They look good and feel good to use? Yes, especially in PvP or trials where the entire screen is cluttered with visual effects and you can barely resemble your character.

Yes, they look nice. I don't disagree. But they're too prevalent, always have been. That's the biggest issue with AoE DoTs. Not that it's going to change, but it's still a poor design choice.

i don't agree with you. i think they're perfectly fine.

Ythotha

Undaunted unweaver and infiltrator being changed to garbage sets, lightning staff is now more irrelevant than ever. Flame staff exist and does better at everything (Even at aoe damage which is what you thought shock staff was supposed to be?)

LonePirate

I didn't see anything in the patch notes about where Light Armor is now a viable option in PVP. The great reduction in defense from Light Armor is not compensated by a matching increase in offensive output. Unless you're a Sorc who can blink away or a Nightblade who can vanish, you will continue to be shredded quickly in PVP if you're wearing Light Armor.

Rhavein

Is it me or RotW sets are really overturned? Both light (giving WD/SD and crit resistance of 1650) and medium (pen) sets will be bis for not only ball groups but basically everyone in Cyrodiil. Additionally, the light armor set will kill basically every player who is using crit build in PvP. The numbers are huge and these sets’ benefits are over the top.

MudcrabAttack

The big issue I see now is each class has some sort of dual purpose status effect, one tied to stamina and one tied to magicka. Usually one or the other status effect feels weak. Maybe they were all balanced a while back, but charged trait just got supersized last patch.

Magic-cost fire morphs and stamina cost poison morphs are technically superior now because each of those particular status procs hits for a lot, especially when it’s a spammable

HackTheMinotaur

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class change. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

I am hoping you guys will do another pass on skill updates in Week 3. Great changes overall, but:

1. Biting Jabs getting Brutality/Sorcery does not make sense in so many ways.

• This buff on a spammable skill just seems wrong. It seems like a limitation rather than an advantage. Other classes have longer lasting versions of this buff, usually at least 20 seconds.
• Magicka Templars would never use Jabs over Puncturing Sweep, so they never get this important buff? Seems less than ideal.
• All other classes (except Necros) get Brutality/Sorcerer applied to a base skill, not just a single morph. This ensures that you have the buff you need regardless of class specialization.
• I understand giving the skill something to make it stand out now that Savagery is removed, but I would prefer something truly unique rather than a major/minor buff. Why not play off a stacking element to reward players for landing all 4 Jabs on a target like 1% bonus crit chance per Jab, 50 weapon/spell damage per Jab, bonus Penetration per Jab, etc.?
• If going the standard major/minor buff route something for Templar tanks would be a nice addition: AOE minor main, minor fracture, minor mangle, etc.
• Better options for Brutality/Sorcery in order of preference for Templar would be (1) Rune Focus, (2) Solar Flare, (3) Backlash, (4) Spear Shards - lots of good options here!

2. Necros need Brutality/Sorcery too! Tell me this is coming in week 3 please?

3. Venom Arrow getting Brutality/Sorcery is a great idea for bow builds but the buff needs to be at least 12-15 seconds long. 10 seconds is too easy to accidentally drop if your rotation is not 100% perfect.

Kodzy

Why is nobody writing about "Dark Flare"? hardly anyone uses it, let it be an immediate throw without a "Major Defile" or a proc similar to a crystal fragment?

Solariken

Twilight Matriarch. Please give Matriarch heal LOS checks - this skill is so dumb in PvP it's not even funny - heals through walls, behind the caster, 2 floors up in some BG maps... Also, if you could make it not port behind the sorc to body-block while he's streaking away that'd be great.

Engine guardian. If you interrupt his channel, he should just die immediately. Currently, interrupting does almost nothing because he goes right back to beaming.

Caluurion's Legacy. Too much untelegraphed burst out of stealth (when it works, might be bugged). Cut the damage and cooldown in half so that it fires more often but for less damage.

Radiating Regen. Make it not stack, just let it refresh every time someone casts it.

Teleport Strike. Why does it need a cast time? This skill is INCREDIBLY difficult to use in combat with the amount of LOS humping that players do. No other gap closer suffers from a cast time. Also, Streak is instant and can be spammed and doesn't require a target. What gives?

Race Against Time. Increase snare/root immunity to 3 seconds.

katorga

Solariken wrote: »

Twilight Matriarch. Please give Matriarch heal LOS checks - this skill is so dumb in PvP it's not even funny - heals through walls, behind the caster, 2 floors up in some BG maps... Also, if you could make it not port behind the sorc to body-block while he's streaking away that'd be great.

Teleport Strike. Why does it need a cast time? This skill is INCREDIBLY difficult to use in combat with the amount of LOS humping that players do. No other gap closer suffers from a cast time. Also, Streak is instant and can be spammed and doesn't require a target. What gives?

Thats why matriarch is the best burst heal in the game. Gigantic heal and heals everything, provided the bird doesn't glitch out in lag and you can keep it alive.

Streak as a cost penalty so technically cannot be "spammed"; I think ALL gap closers should have.

If none of the other gap closers have a cast time, TS should not. Or they all should have the same cast time.

But yeah, the .4 second cast time they put on a lot of skills is horrible. It *feels* glitchy. Not long enough to feel like a cast time, but just long enough to feel like something lagged.

Drdeath20

I admit I was wrong about jabs.

Brutality on jabs is just bad. Please do something else, anything else, or revert back to major savagery.

Solar disturbance needs more of a reason to choose this over solar prism.

Even if you added major sorcery/brutality to radiant aura I still probably wouldn’t slot it over rune but that’s a good place to start.

Sunfire and it’s morphs has zero value to be slotted in pve. Redundant major buff, requires a target, has either a weird duration or is a quasi AoE.

Explosive charge has no value in pvp or pve. The interrupt and splash damage makes this skill weak on the power index.

Templars are somehow great and yet loaded with undesirable skill/ultimate morphs.

Drdeath20

Wish list

Revert jabs back to savagery

Give radiant aura major sorcery/brutality. I’d still take rune vs it but it is close in power level.

Solar disturbance loses maim and protection but in turn gives major brittle while enemy is standing in its AoE. Finally a unique Templar attribute that trial groups will want. Gives a reason to carry more than 1 Templar and reduces the necromancers stranglehold in trial groups. Also we get 2 strong options to choose from with prism’s offensive/ defensive play and the uniqueness of major brittle.

Explosive charge should provide an AoE taunt. Focused charge is the clear pvp winner but a cool tank function now, considering that Templar tanks rely on world skills for everything.

Sunfire 10 second duration. Reflective light reduced cost per stage and splits into 3 projectiles. Vampires bane 20 second duration. Duration increases each stage. Now it’s viable in both pvp and pve.

MudcrabAttack

For what it's worth you don't really have to light attack or heavy attack anymore to hit 100k, that's neat I guess

VarisVaris

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

For what it's worth you don't really have to light attack or heavy attack anymore to hit 100k, that's neat I guess

Thank you for posting this picture, finally ending the endless cycle of people asking for Light attack weaving to be removed because it's too complicated and is required to pull good dps.

francesinhalover

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

For what it's worth you don't really have to light attack or heavy attack anymore to hit 100k, that's neat I guess

bruh! legit do one with light attacks, i wana know the dps

will it be 130k?

WrathOfInnos

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Wish list

Give radiant aura major sorcery/brutality. I’d still take rune vs it but it is close in power level.

That would be a good place for it. Jabs still needs something to set it apart from sweeps, and IMO prophecy/savagery don't make any more sense than brutailty/sorcery on the spammable.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Solar disturbance loses maim and protection but in turn gives major brittle while enemy is standing in its AoE. Finally a unique Templar attribute that trial groups will want. Gives a reason to carry more than 1 Templar and reduces the necromancers stranglehold in trial groups. Also we get 2 strong options to choose from with prism’s offensive/ defensive play and the uniqueness of major brittle.

I like the idea of an offensive morph and a defensive morph, with both serving as group buffs. However I don't think Major Brittle is a good choice. The crit damage cap means anything above 125% is wasted, and it is very easy to get to that cap without major brittle. It also doesn't make sense thematically, since heat from a sun would make things more ductile, not brittle. Brittle is associated with cold, like when an object is frozen and shattered, and it belongs on skills like Northern Storm.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Wish list

Give radiant aura major sorcery/brutality. I’d still take rune vs it but it is close in power level.

That would be a good place for it. Jabs still needs something to set it apart from sweeps, and IMO prophecy/savagery don't make any more sense than brutailty/sorcery on the spammable.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Solar disturbance loses maim and protection but in turn gives major brittle while enemy is standing in its AoE. Finally a unique Templar attribute that trial groups will want. Gives a reason to carry more than 1 Templar and reduces the necromancers stranglehold in trial groups. Also we get 2 strong options to choose from with prism’s offensive/ defensive play and the uniqueness of major brittle.

I like the idea of an offensive morph and a defensive morph, with both serving as group buffs. However I don't think Major Brittle is a good choice. The crit damage cap means anything above 125% is wasted, and it is very easy to get to that cap without major brittle. It also doesn't make sense thematically, since heat from a sun would make things more ductile, not brittle. Brittle is associated with cold, like when an object is frozen and shattered, and it belongs on skills like Northern Storm.

definitely, Major Brittle should be on either Icy Rage or Northern Storm. It's not a great idea on Nunatak either as it's not fully controllable, and doesn't thematically make sense on nova.

ESO_Nightingale

Just going to bring this comment i left on the update 33 combat preview thread:

Magicka warden already had a badly eroded identity beforehand. We can't make meaningful build choices when it comes to class skills anymore. Not like sorcerer can, for example. Because we've always had so few damage skills to work with. One of the few meaningful choices we had, at least in my opinion was the short time when deep fissure and sub assault were unique to their respective roles. Deep Fissure modifies your rotation by making you recast it every 3 seconds. This was interesting and in my opinion, more fun than the current 6 second rotation offered by the vastly superior sub assault. The thing that stops me from using deep fissure is that sub assault is just so much better damage and far easier as a choice than deep fissure, major breach doesn't even come close to competing with a better damage type in poison, recast and off-stat cost. An now with the hybridization changes, more than ever magicka wardens have felt like their identity doesn't exist anymore.
Warden's issues need to be looked at.
Not just that it's self healing was entirely crippled by a lack of a solid burst heal since blackwood, or that one of or only few stun options in pvp was not only delayed but also an irritating hp based heal that only ever synergized defensively or if they were a stamden in melee range.

But in terms of meaningful class options. We need a new frost damage skill to help with the frost damage dealer archetype, we need a reason to use deep fissure over sub assault in pve, we need our useless morphs to see some type of help to fit them into a niche.

The lotus flower changes were a step in the right direction. Why did it stop there?

Falcon_of_light

Buff Rattlecage. After nest patch it receive undirected nerf. Like now its give majore brutality + sorcery and next patch every brut\sorc buff wil give both, so sett losing its value and basically become set with 171 damage on it and nothing more. Like if u dont have major weap buff on class you still losing 2 much stats while going rattle, buff it for at least 251 weapon damage or so...

Ragnaroek93

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

Tannus15

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

MudcrabAttack

francesinhalover wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

For what it's worth you don't really have to light attack or heavy attack anymore to hit 100k, that's neat I guess

bruh! legit do one with light attacks, i wana know the dps

will it be 130k?

I saw one as high as 128k

But more like 120k when I do it since weaving feels clunky around carve, boneyard, stampede




When light attacks are added my weaving average goes from .036 to .119, so that's a big part of the difference, take 120k x 1.119/1.036 and you get 130k dps, which some people would likely hit with ease

VarisVaris

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

Should have been clear from the post that he wasn't talking about PvE.

Tannus15

VarisVaris wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

Should have been clear from the post that he wasn't talking about PvE.

doesn't matter. to continue his analogy you CAN run the best magicka spammable in the game with a resto staff, it's elemental weapon. knock yourself out. enjoy that massive dps loss because you are not running an inferno staff. you can't just things by tooltip value alone.

VarisVaris

Tannus15 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

Should have been clear from the post that he wasn't talking about PvE.

doesn't matter. to continue his analogy you CAN run the best magicka spammable in the game with a resto staff, it's elemental weapon. knock yourself out. enjoy that massive dps loss because you are not running an inferno staff. you can't just things by tooltip value alone.

Please refrain from partaking in a discussion if you don't have the necessary experience to make well-founded statements.

SnB is the much better option in PvP and results in more damage for builds that have no access to an actual Spammable from their class toolkit.

Power Slam on Pts is heavily overshadowing DW outside of situations where you choose DW for whirling blades.

PvE talk brings nothing to this discussion because PvE is so vastly different from PvP.

wow, that was condecending. that means you were talking down to me.

I wasn't talking down to you, I was just explaining why I think it's unhealthy for a discussion on the forums when arguments about problems tied to either PvE or PvP are met by bringing the other side into the debate aswell.

PvP and PvE have completely different requirements and behaviors that certain changes will result in balance issues on one side and the other side will have to take a step back in that case.

Darkoverine

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Please revert the change to Infiltrator/Unweaver/ND and instead adjust it in a way that only affects PvP, there is no reason to destroy niche PvE builds, especially when those builds are also relied on by players with physical disabilities.

I would like to expressly support this. I myself have to type a lot professionally and almost got tendonitis from La-Weaving. Thanks to a Ha-Build, I do at least enough damage in PvE that I can run with most content. I also recommend this build to older Guildies who can't keep up with La-Weaving. Please take back this change, thank you.

VarisVaris

Darkoverine wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Please revert the change to Infiltrator/Unweaver/ND and instead adjust it in a way that only affects PvP, there is no reason to destroy niche PvE builds, especially when those builds are also relied on by players with physical disabilities.

I would like to expressly support this. I myself have to type a lot professionally and almost got tendonitis from La-Weaving. Thanks to a Ha-Build, I do at least enough damage in PvE that I can run with most content. I also recommend this build to older Guildies who can't keep up with La-Weaving. Please take back this change, thank you.

There has been prove in this thread that you can pull more than 100k dps even when not doing a single heavy or light attack.
Light attack weaving is not at all necessary to clear content.

Ragnaroek93

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

That's the entire point. Dual wield gives more offense while sword and board gives more defense instead of s&b giving amazing defense and a lot of offense on top of that. We've already been at this point when s&b had almost a 50% healing debuff with perma uptime while no other builds (except stam necro) had access to this. It was broken and instead of balancing the game they just flat out removed the counter to healing.

Tannus15 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Buffing powerslam doesn't make sense at all. I've seen screenshots of powerslam having a tooltip between 15 and 20k which is just ridiculous. Why don't you buff the dw spammable instead? Could rework one of the two morphs into a smooth instant cast which is fun to use for example. Sword and Board is a defensive skill line and giving that skill line one of the best (if not the best) stamina spammable is a very, very bad idea, especially with block healing having barely any counters at all. That would be similar to giving restoration staff the best magicka spammable ability in the game. Powerslam already has a slightly higher tooltip than Surprise Attack on the live server but doesn't have the debuffs and the stun. I'd say that it's fine how it is considering that class skills are supposed to be stronger than weapon skills. Poison injection can't compete with dk dots either for example.

the DW passive will make running DW superior to sword and shield. powerslam on it's own isn't enough to justify it.

Should have been clear from the post that he wasn't talking about PvE.

doesn't matter. to continue his analogy you CAN run the best magicka spammable in the game with a resto staff, it's elemental weapon. knock yourself out. enjoy that massive dps loss because you are not running an inferno staff. you can't just things by tooltip value alone.

You can do this because elemental weapon is part of a guild skill line. The situation is entirely different because you can slot the skill on both resto and destro staff while it will always deal more damage on the offensive weapon. The situation would be comparable with powerslam if 1) elemental weapon would be locked behind using a resto staff and 2) would be far better than any spammable which destro staff offers.