What's with ZOS and Vampire skills that are actually being used?

themaddaedra

Vampire
Blood Frenzy:
This ability and its morphs now grant a stack of up to 30 Weapon and Spell Damage rather than 600 upfront, up to a maximum of 10 stacks.
Decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds, down from 1 (haha inverse math!) so the ability drains Health slower.
The health cost now increases by 250 Health per stack, rather than 20% of the cost of the skill with no cap.
Reduced the initial cost to 700, down from 1980.
Simmering Frenzy (morph): This morph now increases the Weapon and Spell Damage granted to a maximum of 40 per stack, rather than adding 66 Weapon and Spell Damage each second the ability is toggled on with no cap.
Sated Frenzy (morph): This morph now also reduces the ramping cost of the ability to 200 per stack, down from 250.

Seriously what's going on? Why can't you stop nerfing vampire? I haven't really seen anyone complaining about how Blood Frenzy and it's morphs work, did i miss something?

prof_doom

It's pretty clear that someone there hates both vampires and to a lesser degree stamina dps.

divnyi

Maybe a stupid way to remove fire staff DK gank build?

They nuked this skill for the rest of PvP applications. 10 stacks with 2 sec each, so 20 sec, to reach 60% of previous first second WD bonus? All this time losing health and no cross-heals?

I guess it's now a PvE-only tool, and weak one at that.

Vaoh

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

themaddaedra

divnyi wrote: »

Maybe a stupid way to remove fire staff DK gank build?

They nuked this skill for the rest of PvP applications. 10 stacks with 2 sec each, so 20 sec, to reach 60% of previous first second WD bonus? All this time losing health and no cross-heals?

I guess it's now a PvE-only tool, and weak one at that.

[snip] Either way, it's sadly a very stupid idea, it was pretty much the only skill that was limitedly useful from the vampire line.

[edited for bashing & conspiracy theory]

Galiferno

I've seen videos where 3 DDs toggling could absolutely destroy vet DLC HMs like SCP. It was clearly overpowered and some of us don't think it's fair that we have to take a power from the King of You Know What to reach our damage potential. My magplar will always be loyal to Stendarr and will refuse to bow down to Molag Bal.

DeathStalker

I absolutely hate this change. It was the best Vampire skill and now it will be so weak it will be useless

p00tx

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

Nullhawk3D

Vampirism curse will be removed now from most majority of toons. Thanks ZOS helped me pull that trigger with the build layout much easier. Will just slot in armorer for tertiary "unused" gamestyle slot.

We need ZOS qc analysts to sit down in an open/public forum video and test before and after effects before even suggesting them to roll to PTS. Then allow playerbase to tweak and adjust to find elements of playstyle not thought of before adaptation/modification of skills.

Not quite certain even with the dev comments they are having the foresight here to see the impact on overall gameplay mechanics; these changes are clearly not being vetted here.

Off to sulk about my two-handed build playstyles also getting nerfed on another sub...

unholy_nox

Well , they already sold Greymoor chapter what promoted vampires and their rework , now its time to kill whole skill line , seriously guys , it's nothing new.

unholy_nox

p00tx wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

That's true , endgame community gives less income. It's way easier to please casual players.
Pleased casual player most likely will spend more money on game.

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

Maybe a stupid way to remove fire staff DK gank build?

They nuked this skill for the rest of PvP applications. 10 stacks with 2 sec each, so 20 sec, to reach 60% of previous first second WD bonus? All this time losing health and no cross-heals?

I guess it's now a PvE-only tool, and weak one at that.

Based on the dev notes, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Ironic that the vampire DLC and skill line rework totally rocked for werewolf and ruined vampire.

tbh, I'm amazed they did not nerf Bahsei's down to 10% making it replaceable with other 10% sets. With hybridization, the common build would be bahsei's + anything + stambuild with just enough mag skills in rotation to keep your 15K mag pool drained and the 15% rolling 100% of the time.

p00tx

unholy_nox wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

That's true , endgame community gives less income. It's way easier to please casual players.
Pleased casual player most likely will spend more money on game.

Almost all of us have ESO+ because the craft bag is too juicy to pass up, we buy crown crates, we buy the houses, we buy the mounts and the costumes. We spend just as much as anyone else, but we also find and bring to light the majority of the bugs because we're experimenting intensely with every set and skill to find the best dmg output and playing every single aspect of this game in all content, and we hold them to a level of accountability that the rest of the community might otherwise miss. I'll be the first to admit we're a pain in the tush for them and probably make a lot more work for them than they'd like. We demand a little more for our money.

Galiferno

unholy_nox wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

That's true , endgame community gives less income. It's way easier to please casual players.
Pleased casual player most likely will spend more money on game.

It is possible to not be a casual and also value wanting lore to be consistent in the universe. Molag Bal "often deceives those he deals with, and has no trouble waiting exceedingly long periods of time for his plans to come to fruition," so you deal with Molag's power by being a vampire, enjoy the increased damage for some time, and it comes back to bite you.

unholy_nox

p00tx wrote: »

unholy_nox wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

That's true , endgame community gives less income. It's way easier to please casual players.
Pleased casual player most likely will spend more money on game.

Almost all of us have ESO+ because the craft bag is too juicy to pass up, we buy crown crates, we buy the houses, we buy the mounts and the costumes. We spend just as much as anyone else, but we also find and bring to light the majority of the bugs because we're experimenting intensely with every set and skill to find the best dmg output and playing every single aspect of this game in all content, and we hold them to a level of accountability that the rest of the community might otherwise miss. I'll be the first to admit we're a pain in the tush for them and probably make a lot more work for them than they'd like. We demand a little more for our money.

There are far fewer endgamers than casuals and like i said , casuals are way easier to be pleased.It doesn't matter spend you your money or not , we are still minority and minority always will lose to majority.That's the truth.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

RIP Frenzy - Feb 14, 2022

This was a great skill to use for 3 to 5 seconds at a time for a huge bonus and huge risk.

Now Frenzy ramps up over 20 seconds to only 40-60% of it's previous potency while still making you unhealable by other players. The reward is small and the huge risk still remains.

Frenzy is now a dead skill for PvP. It's not worth the bar slot.

unholy_nox

Galiferno wrote: »

unholy_nox wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Not in this game. They've always historically preferred a nice, flat, homogenized playing field. They've never been big fans of the end game community in general.

That's true , endgame community gives less income. It's way easier to please casual players.
Pleased casual player most likely will spend more money on game.

It is possible to not be a casual and also value wanting lore to be consistent in the universe. Molag Bal "often deceives those he deals with, and has no trouble waiting exceedingly long periods of time for his plans to come to fruition," so you deal with Molag's power by being a vampire, enjoy the increased damage for some time, and it comes back to bite you.

You mistaken Molag Bal with Clavicus Vile , Molag Bal has always rewarded who's willingly and faithfully fulfilled his biddings. Vampire in lore always considered way superior to mortals(magically and physical) and the only weakness they had was Sunlight.Toying with mortals by through gifted rewards is more Clavicus Vile thing and always was.

ZOS_Icy

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Remathilis

Vampire and werewolf need to either be full classes and balanced like a full class OR be a skin/polymorph cosmetic. ZoS has shown they feel they giving characters any ability that isn't tied to thier class or a long-winded guild grinds is OP and vampire in particular keeps breaking ZoS idea of balance.

Vampire in particular keeps finding synergies that ZoS hates. Apparently they should be suicide bombers who kill themselves to get an extra point of DPS. They have taken their survival mist away, continuously nerfed any healing they might get, and now are cropping away their damage. The point of being a glass cannon is to be a cannon, not to keep breaking the glass.

They have no idea what to do with this, so it will continue to be nerfed every time someone finds a use for it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Tell me:

Why should I slot this over Grim Focus?

EF321

Very disappointing patch notes all around.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

I feel -3200 health/s and -100% incoming healing is way too harsh of a penalty for only 400 damage.

Edit: apparently it's -health every 2 seconds but it's still not worth it

x99KungFuTacosx

These changes to blood frenzy/shimmering frenzy are awful. Major nerf to pvp nightblades which were already struggling with a 4 second rotation and burst problems, especially in a tanky meta like Xbox NA.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

They could at least make it provide other buffs if they so insist on reducing it's power by that much, maybe it could also buff movement speed or armor.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

It seems unreasonable that a player ramping up Frenzy over 20 seconds can no longer receiving incoming healing.

1 stack = 40 damage = No heals for you!

Finedaible

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

I don't even care about the change honestly, but that comment was mildly disturbing. If there's one thing combat in this game is sorely lacking is avenues for player creativity and identity, but they just keep cutting out anything that deviates from the norm. This is why all the classes feel the same and use all the same sets. They are so focused on spreadsheet balance that they can't think of anything else.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

My use case is Mag Sorc battlegrounds healing.

I'll enable Simmering Frenzy for 3 to 5 seconds for boosted Matriarch heals and then turn it off. There is a huge risk being caught in a stun + ult dump with Frenzy on. I've died many times this way.

"Skara, I don't know what you're doing but the fact that I can't heal you means you're doing something wrong."
- Random BG Teammate

Now the reward isn't worth it.

I'll still have strong Matriarch heals because I've built specifically for that. Just not as boosted. 1000 to 1500 off the top.

Here's an example w/ Battle Spirit.

Frenzy Off = 8284 heal, 12236 crit
Frenzy On = 9206 heal, 13598 crit

Fennwitty

I don't know how the math shakes out, but as a not-fan of the current Vampire I agree with the stated reasons.

(Not defending any particular mathematical change or otherwise)

It is very difficult to use the skill in PvE situations because of the health drain, and it is also borderline (or obviously) overpowered in certain PvP or specialized group situations.

Obviously bringing down the one performant skill and not bringing UP the rest of them results in a net nerf.

The rest of vampire still needs a re-do.

siddique

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

[snip] So what, you are punishing players for having "deep knowledge of content and combat interactions,"? How does that even make sense?

[snip]
[edited for bashing & conspiracy theory]

Vevvev

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

Yeah, that was a nerf directed at people like me who found great success with it when combined with sets like the Pale Order Ring and super high self healing. It promoted skilled play and raised the ceiling by a lot! I'm glad it'll be easier to use, but the ultimate nerf to it's actual potential was a bit saddening.

Fennwitty wrote: »

I don't know how the math shakes out, but as a not-fan of the current Vampire I agree with the stated reasons.

(Not defending any particular mathematical change or otherwise)

It is very difficult to use the skill in PvE situations because of the health drain, and it is also borderline (or obviously) overpowered in certain PvP or specialized group situations.

Obviously bringing down the one performant skill and not bringing UP the rest of them results in a net nerf.

The rest of vampire still needs a re-do.

Actually it was far, far, faaaar easier to use in PvE than PvP. With the right build it was essentially free, and with Sated fury it became a burst heal on top! So yeah, I can understand the reasoning, but it's actually the inverse when it came to viability unless you're speaking about group content then in that case it's worthless and even more worthless now unless the cost changes do make a significant difference.

p00tx

Finedaible wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

To me the bad part wasn’t the nerf, but the Dev comment.

“This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.”

Is skilled gameplay and understanding combat encounters not supposed to be rewarded? And the Bahsei nerf was also upsetting to see.

I don't even care about the change honestly, but that comment was mildly disturbing. If there's one thing combat in this game is sorely lacking is avenues for player creativity and identity, but they just keep cutting out anything that deviates from the norm. This is why all the classes feel the same and use all the same sets. They are so focused on spreadsheet balance that they can't think of anything else.

THIS 100%!!! It's time to stop punishing the 3-4 raid teams who will always ALWAYS figure out ways to do big dmg, no matter how hard Zos nerfs sets/skills.

It also disturbs me that they absolutely don't understand their own game if they think you can stack lifesteal...like, what?