Account Wide Titles ruin Titles

Gaebriel0410

Spiritrush wrote: »

particularly as it relates to end-game PVE (which is currently your most loyal, most influential player base).

Sorry but I think this is absolute nonsense.

Despite that some metachasers probably want to be seen as exactly that, influential trendsetters keeping the game alive by their herculean efforts of elite gaming skill, this not a raid or die game like some other examples in the MMO scene.

Something like the above is of course impossible to measure in the first place, but I'd argue roleplayers are the most loyal playerbase. Those are the people that tend to stay for the setting and lore, and play out the stories they write together (and are most likely to buy the cosmetics lol), regardless of what's buffed or nerfed in patch x.

Varana

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I can't figure out why people have such concern over the own characters having a title they don't want to use. I can understand (a tiny bit) those who want to grind to earn it again, but not its mere existence. Just don't use it as you note, right?

Because, as has been pointed out quite a few times, titles are one of the very few ways of seeing that this character has actually done (or, in this case, not done) this particular thing. It's what makes them unique, in a way.
Not even having access to the title is the main point here. Title and achievement are the only ways the game recognises that this character didn't do that thing. And people want the game to record this non-achievement, not only their memory.

It's an effect of how ZOS has handled rewards. For years, all rewards from an achievement have been account-based, only titles were not. As a result, players have come to see titles as the main way to individualise their characters. A character having a certain skin or mount etc. - sure, whatever. The list of titles - that's what makes a character, in terms of what can be seen in-game. As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.
That's why this change is so profound and game-altering for so many people. It changes how you look at your character, and in a role-playing game, that's one of the most important aspects of how players interact with the game.

Danel_Vadan

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

Elsonso

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

Sylvermynx

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

I don't find that a true statement for me. All my characters are their own individual people. Yes, I am the person making them move around the game, but I play them as each of them is a different person with his or her own personality and motivation. As a very long time roleplay gamer - since the mid-70s when I ran AD&D scenarios for my daughter and her friends in junior high school, then "graduating" to CRPGs in the mid-80s - I'm quite capable of playing each character as that different person, and I find no problems in keeping track of each separate person.

However, I don't care for stuff like achievements and titles so it doesn't matter to me.

ArchangelIsraphel

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

By that logic, then as a player, if I have done something on one character, then that does not mean I have done something, as a player, on another. The characters and their progress remain separate regardless of whether you see them as individuals or tools the player uses to interact with the game. If I completed a quest on character A, I did not complete it on character B. That is how the game works. Wiping individual achievement progress does not change that.

Elsonso

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

I don't find that a true statement for me. All my characters are their own individual people. Yes, I am the person making them move around the game, but I play them as each of them is a different person with his or her own personality and motivation. As a very long time roleplay gamer - since the mid-70s when I ran AD&D scenarios for my daughter and her friends in junior high school, then "graduating" to CRPGs in the mid-80s - I'm quite capable of playing each character as that different person, and I find no problems in keeping track of each separate person.

In my experience, the answer to "what is role playing" will vary almost as much as "what is a computer game". Many discussions across many years and many Gen Cons yielded the throw away line I posted above, which describes one of the many ways that people look at role playing. The characters doing all the work; players are just there for moral support. Some of the people I played with were aligned with that idea. Others, who I did not play with much, were way beyond that to the point where the player wasn't even there.

I am also quite familiar with, and have met many role players who subscribe to, the idea that characters are tools. These players frequently approach the game from a technical perspective. This is more common with D&D and AD&D where rules are very important and the player is very aware of nuances and plays the character along those lines.

It is not unusual for these to mix like oil and water.

The cool thing about ESO was that, if the player was willing to deal with inconveniences, it did a fairly decent job of handling different role playing styles. Not perfectly, mind you.

Sylvermynx

Well, no game is perfect for everyone. Which is why I think ZOS needs to step up here to cover both "sides" of this issue.

Jazraena

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

"If you are really a role player your character is unaware of the game interface."

You sure you want to go down that line of argumentation? Because we've been there over several pages.

Elsonso

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[snip]

Clearly, ZOS agrees, as do a pile of other MMORPG games. It is common for video game players to think that way. All the titles in Lost Ark are at least server-wide for the account. The main difference is that Lost Ark shipped that way from the start. With ESO, ZOS did it differently for 8 years. When they decided to change, they just did a "P.S." in a post-announcement stream. 🙄

Jazraena wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

"If you are really a role player your character is unaware of the game interface."

You sure you want to go down that line of argumentation? Because we've been there over several pages.

You say that, but you are actually the first person that I have ever come across that had brought this up as a topic of conversation. I am not saying that it isn't, but in decades of playing role playing games, and talking to role players, I have never come across this argument. I have never known anyone who thought that the character was rolling the dice, so to speak. Even the most dedicated role players that I have ever come across, a LARP community where dropping out of the role during the game was strictly controlled, this was not an issue. It has always been assumed that the game and character were separate. (Edit: to clarify... when the character is not a tool of the player)

[edited to remove quote]

Jazraena

Elsonso wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[snip]

Clearly, ZOS agrees, as do a pile of other MMORPG games. It is common for video game players to think that way. All the titles in Lost Ark are at least server-wide for the account. The main difference is that Lost Ark shipped that way from the start. With ESO, ZOS did it differently for 8 years. When they decided to change, they just did a "P.S." in a post-announcement stream. 🙄

Jazraena wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

"If you are really a role player your character is unaware of the game interface."

You sure you want to go down that line of argumentation? Because we've been there over several pages.

You say that, but you are actually the first person that I have ever come across that had brought this up as a topic of conversation. I am not saying that it isn't, but in decades of playing role playing games, and talking to role players, I have never come across this argument. I have never known anyone who thought that the character was rolling the dice, so to speak. Even the most dedicated role players that I have ever come across, a LARP community where dropping out of the role during the game was strictly controlled, this was not an issue. It has always been assumed that the game and character were separate. (Edit: to clarify... when the character is not a tool of the player)

... yes, game and character is separate. That's my point.

But over the course of this thread, people have used roleplaying as justification for why account-wide titles and achievements are a problem despite the character being entirely unaware of them.

One cannot bring up roleplaying to justify character-specific out of character elements.

[edited to remove quote]

Spiritrush

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Something like the above is of course impossible to measure in the first place, but I'd argue roleplayers are the most loyal playerbase. Those are the people that tend to stay for the setting and lore, and play out the stories they write together (and are most likely to buy the cosmetics lol), regardless of what's buffed or nerfed in patch x.

Sure, as I wrote that I did consider role-players and housing enthusiasts and such. While not impossible to measure, it can be very difficult to measure and both groups are very loyal. I certainly wasn't discounting that group, but was making an entirely different point (hence the side-note in parenthesis). I also wasn't looking to non-sensically bash any particular group of people - apologies if it came across that way to you (or anyone) provoking such a reaction, certainly unintentional. Note too: I wasn't thinking of "meta-chasers" as you put it - I was thinking of my friends and their motivations for end-game replayability, who I have played with for many years. This group of folks enjoys theory-crafting on multiple toons, the true end-game sandbox that ESO offers, extensive housing projects, and really doesn't chase anything (we do avoid pvp cheese builds, though).

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

Lets see how they do once the moral support stop using a controller or keybord

FlopsyPrince

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

HedgehogFeet wrote: »

Could they not make motifs account wide

This would be VERY nice, but would crater the Motif sales market.

====

Account-wide should really be account-wide as well, not server wide. Or call it what it is.

Do you learn all the motives on all your characters?

Not all of them, but more than 1 most times.

Elsonso

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

Lets see how they do once the moral support stop using a controller or keybord

I am assuming that you mean how will they do if I stop playing them? Well, sadly, I do have to admit that all of my characters are lazy bums and just sit around the house all day doing nothing if I am not there to encourage them along. Hmm... Coincidentally, a lot like me on the weekends when the wife isn't around to direct various home projects. Am I just a character in her home improvement game???

FlopsyPrince

JKorr wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

I usually have a title displayed but I really don't pay attention to them unless, well, I see another fellow master angler

Hehe Master Angler is the only one I really enjoy seeing and wearing. Close second are vMA/vVH.

The latter two prove some level of competence, or in the case of perfect run titles a potential primadonna for trials.

Master Anglers are like Twain’s quotes re cats, to me, which goes “When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade without further introduction.”

When I see a Master Angler I think, there is a soul who I have a good chance of getting along with in a don’t have to fill every quiet moment with smalltalk kind of way

Librarian
My favorite title, earned on my main, the first character I ever created at early access. Not going to like it much when the newest "gee, I wonder how this build will work" alt is created and has it..... Yes, yes I am an altaholic and hope we get more character slots someday......

Why should it bother you if someone else uses a title you have had for years?

Why are people so jealous of others?

They had to have earned the title themselves at some point.

Elsonso

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Why should it bother you if someone else uses a title you have had for years?

Why are people so jealous of others?

They had to have earned the title themselves at some point.

Likely thinking back to a time when titles actually mattered and were not just cosmetic fuzzies attached to the player. Back then, it did matter, as much as real world titles matter to us, today. For the same reasons, too.

Sylvermynx

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

I usually have a title displayed but I really don't pay attention to them unless, well, I see another fellow master angler

Hehe Master Angler is the only one I really enjoy seeing and wearing. Close second are vMA/vVH.

The latter two prove some level of competence, or in the case of perfect run titles a potential primadonna for trials.

Master Anglers are like Twain’s quotes re cats, to me, which goes “When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade without further introduction.”

When I see a Master Angler I think, there is a soul who I have a good chance of getting along with in a don’t have to fill every quiet moment with smalltalk kind of way

Librarian
My favorite title, earned on my main, the first character I ever created at early access. Not going to like it much when the newest "gee, I wonder how this build will work" alt is created and has it..... Yes, yes I am an altaholic and hope we get more character slots someday......

Why should it bother you if someone else uses a title you have had for years?

Why are people so jealous of others?

They had to have earned the title themselves at some point.

I think JKorr is talking about his own next alt to try out a build, and doesn't particularly want to see the Librarian title available for all his alts? And of course I could be totally wrong....

Northwold

I mean, honestly, my answer to this would be "who cares". No one is looking at your titles except you (except in the way people look at other people who have personalised number plates), but if that's much of a deal for some people, why not make it optional?

newtinmpls

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Why do you hate the "player over character" philosophy so much? Let's say I got a difficult achievement and I want to show it on each of my characters. Why not?

newtinmpls wrote: »

For me it's because I'm not playing "checkers", I'm playing "this particular breton templar who did these things" and then I'm playing "this particular argonian who did these things".

I want to retain my characters' individual histories.

If you don't - that's cool for you.

I intensely dislike the loss of individuality for my characters, replayability for the various quests, and the ability to tell which skyshards a particular character has not yet found.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just dont equip those titles
For the quest im pretty sure its not intended bu we will see in that q&a they are planning

For me it's not about equipping or not equipping a title (though I think the idea of playing an MMPRPG like a checkers game seems silly - but what do I care if someone else likes that style).

I dislike the idea of not being able to tell for my characters who got what title. I've played at least 6-7 of the characters for over 5 years, and I personally don't have that good a memory to be able to reconstruct all their histories and adventures from my personal memory.

Also - see the bolded above (added by me). Looks like I will miss out on the ability to re-do past quest dialogue on a new character.

To me that's horrible and guts my enjoyment of the game - which is exploration and slowly (one might say glacially) tinking away at the various zone and side quests.

.

jle30303

Titles are cosmetic. Even a character who has "earned" them could have simply bought them, and kept out of any important fights (nowadays it's not possible to sit at the entrance and keep away from the big boss fights, you *will* be dragged in, but you can still try to keep out of trouble), so even as character-specific things, they don't really mean much.

However... A lot of achievements are tied to things like quest completion, zone completion, and/or whether a symbol on a map appears black or white for that specific character, and *that* is a thing that needs to remain character-specific. I don't want to log in on a brand new character to be told that it's "completed" half of every zone in the game just because there's an "achievement" for every world boss, delve, point of interest and several for each public dungeon, that none of them have actually been to.

On the other hand, if there's one thing that I would really like to become account-wide, it's WAYSHRINES - which are not even tied to achievements. Just as a quality-of-life thing to make it easier for second and subsequent characters to get around.

Achievements for doing a particular chore a multiple number of times (e.g. 50 Dragons, 150 Dark Anchors, Kill 800 Skeevers in Veteran Wayrest 1, Complete 30 World Boss dailies from a given zone, 30 daily delve quests from a particular zone, 150 Murkmire Prepper dailies, even Steal and Fence 1 million Gold worth of stolen loot) - I have no problem with these being account-wide, and being done by multiple characters. In this case, they shouldn't even bother saying which character achieved them, when multiple characters have contributed towards the desired number being met. If one has done 85, one 52 and one 30, and another one 2, and the target number is 100, you're well over the 100 target but no individual character has reached it, the achievement should be account wide but NOT record which character you logged into at the time you passed the target number.

Dungeon achievements that are above-and-beyond mere completion (e.g. Hard Mode, No Death, Speed)... are earned by individual characters. But because some are, well, NOT earned (whether bought deliberately, or simply carried by better players), I don't see a problem with cosmetic rewards such as titles, mounts, pets, dyes and outfits being allowed to be account-wide. All of those rewards are already account-wide EXCEPT titles - and all of them are cosmetic, so why should titles be treated differently?

Jaraal

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Why should it bother you if someone else uses a title you have had for years?

Why are people so jealous of others?

They had to have earned the title themselves at some point.

Likely thinking back to a time when titles actually mattered and were not just cosmetic fuzzies attached to the player. Back then, it did matter, as much as real world titles matter to us, today. For the same reasons, too.

Yeah that reminds me of "Own a piece of Scotland - Become A Lord or Lady Today!" where you can buy one square foot of land and become legally titled. Somehow I think that would have been met with derision (and probably violence) several hundred years ago.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Elsonso wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Danel_Vadan wrote: »

As such, having a title in the list is connected with the character having done the thing to get that title, in the minds of players.

Characters don't do things; players do.

If you are really a role player, characters do things, the player is just there for moral support.

Lets see how they do once the moral support stop using a controller or keybord

I am assuming that you mean how will they do if I stop playing them? Well, sadly, I do have to admit that all of my characters are lazy bums and just sit around the house all day doing nothing if I am not there to encourage them along. Hmm... Coincidentally, a lot like me on the weekends when the wife isn't around to direct various home projects. Am I just a character in her home improvement game???

Not exactly
I was more precisly saying that if player are only moral support, character wouln't do much once the player dont morrally support them trough content

alberichtano

Onyx_Werewolf_Gnome wrote: »

Could they not make motifs account wide

Apparently not, something to do with some motifs being purchasable in the crown store. Heaven forbid you don't have to buy the motif for every single character. (Never mind that a crafter alt can make it for you anyways, even if it is the only alt with that knowledge).

alberichtano

Northwold wrote: »

I mean, honestly, my answer to this would be "who cares". No one is looking at your titles except you (except in the way people look at other people who have personalised number plates), but if that's much of a deal for some people, why not make it optional?

With the risk of sounding like a flamer, but I will smirk every time I hear a raid-group fall apart because someone who has all the right titles proves to be playing on a new class and having no idea how it works. People do care about titles, especially trial-afficionados. And they will get annoyed.

mwo1480

personally i dont care about the pve stuff,
but on pvp side i feel like if the emporor title/achivemt will be account wide, zos basicly says all the time i spent to get the title on multiple characters were worthless, same with alliance ranks

JKorr

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

I usually have a title displayed but I really don't pay attention to them unless, well, I see another fellow master angler

Hehe Master Angler is the only one I really enjoy seeing and wearing. Close second are vMA/vVH.

The latter two prove some level of competence, or in the case of perfect run titles a potential primadonna for trials.

Master Anglers are like Twain’s quotes re cats, to me, which goes “When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade without further introduction.”

When I see a Master Angler I think, there is a soul who I have a good chance of getting along with in a don’t have to fill every quiet moment with smalltalk kind of way

Librarian
My favorite title, earned on my main, the first character I ever created at early access. Not going to like it much when the newest "gee, I wonder how this build will work" alt is created and has it..... Yes, yes I am an altaholic and hope we get more character slots someday......

Why should it bother you if someone else uses a title you have had for years?

Why are people so jealous of others?

They had to have earned the title themselves at some point.

Might not have been clear. The "gee I wonder if this build will work" alt would be mine. As I said, I am an altaholic; if a character isn't working out for me, I will delete and make a new one. That new character, that I just created, really shouldn't have a title I really worked on earning instantly bestowed because my oldest character earned it first.

Whatever titles and achievements other players have makes no difference to my game.

Psiion

Greetings,

After editing and removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone to keep discussion within the Community Rules. Baiting is simply not constructive, as well as never acceptable on the ESO Forums.

Please keep the Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Drdeath20

If all was equal. I’d prefer to keep achievements and titles separate but to find out that it creates major storage issues, it is understandable that they are changing it to this.

Gaebriel0410

alberichtano wrote: »

Onyx_Werewolf_Gnome wrote: »

Could they not make motifs account wide

Apparently not, something to do with some motifs being purchasable in the crown store. Heaven forbid you don't have to buy the motif for every single character. (Never mind that a crafter alt can make it for you anyways, even if it is the only alt with that knowledge).

But motifs are already account wide, you don't have to learn the style on every character to participate in the fashion endgame. The 'per character' part is only for crafting, in which case you can just learn the motifs on your main character / crafting character and make the stuff in that style for your other characters.