My thoughts on the recent outrage about ESO's monetization practices

Fennwitty

carlos424 wrote: »

Why can’t zos put a little disclaimer on crown store items that can be obtained in-game? “This item can also be obtained in-game. For more information see the help menu.” Or something to that effect.

One of the big issues is that very few things are explained. There is no guide that I know of. You just get a few information blurbs during load screens.

That's the crux of the issue isn't it.

It would take away the argument that it's preying on newbies who don't know any better.

...

So why won't they do it?

redspecter23

carlos424 wrote: »

Why can’t zos put a little disclaimer on crown store items that can be obtained in-game? “This item can also be obtained in-game. For more information see the help menu.” Or something to that effect.

One of the big issues is that very few things are explained. There is no guide that I know of. You just get a few information blurbs during load screens.

If the services being sold are truly there for just convenience, then there should be no issue adding this disclaimer. If there is any reason other than convenience, then there is motivation for ZOS to not put the disclaimer there.

Information is a good thing. Putting a small note that a crown item is also available in game and where to go to get it is a very player friendly option. Anyone that reads that note on the item before buying it is definitely buying it for the convenience at that point.

Tannus15

The funny thing about this is that most people I know have saved an "unmorphed" slot in the armory for their characters so that they can change skills for free.

ZoS apparently are preying on the player base by giving them a free way to change skills and attributes.

scorpius2k1

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZoS apparently are preying on the player base by giving them a free way to change skills and attributes.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1467509080378036232

mickeyx

Tannus15 wrote: »

The funny thing about this is that most people I know have saved an "unmorphed" slot in the armory for their characters so that they can change skills for free.

ZoS apparently are preying on the player base by giving them a free way to change skills and attributes.

Sorry. No such thing as "free"

thorwyn

So the new euphemism for cheekyness is "convenience" now.
If ZOS decided to offer stacks of basic style materials or potency runes for 700c, it would also be a matter of convenience because the player doesn't need to go and find the NPC?
Also, it is funny that you mention the fact that not many players are aware of the gold/crown conversion rates as an excuse and assume that those who are aware of the rates are the ones that know how to port to a shrine That is EXACTLY the point that people are complaining about: Taking advantage of a lack of knowledge. If players do that by selling NPC stuff to newbies, it creates an outrage. If a company does essentially the same, it is convenience.

As for the help menu: I might be wrong at this one because I just briefly checked one of the videos on the matter, so feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, the word "respec" does not exist in the help menu. It is called rededication. And if new players don't know how to find a shrine in a city, they most certainly don't know the correct word to look for.

All the discussion aside, in my opinion, Rich Lambert shouldn't have replied to all this on stream. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

katanagirl1

There are always players who want a shortcut. I am happy they buy lots of cosmetic and other stuff from the Crown store. If they are uninformed then that is their fault.

I have never felt the need to buy cosmetics or easy shortcuts. I’ll gladly travel to an NPC Vendor to get a cure when infected by a NPC werewolf during a fight. I bought empty soul gems from NPC vendors and killed enemies on my first toon to fill them.

I have subbed now for many years and buy houses and occasionally housing items with my crowns, and have bought additional crowns at times for housing purchases. With housing I feel a sub is necessary for the crafting bag and I am totally okay with that. The individual has to decide where the saying “time is money” applies to them. A bunch of crafting mules and logging in and switching toons is not mine.

So, I support the game in a way that benefits me. What works for me might not work for everyone.

Hotdog_23

A lot of the YouTube videos is merely chit-bait to generate views for personal gain. So, I take them all with very small grain of salt.

That said there is some truth in them in that some of the prices are out of line but again as a long-time player with gold it is not an issue the more you play the game. New players do not have a lot of gold and if they want to spend their money on such items like respect scrolls who am I to judge them. Same for long-time players.

Which hits at the heart of the issue for me who are we to tell someone what a value to them is and how they should spend their own money.

The only real issue I have with the crown store is crown gems and the price of some items such as the high-priced mounts and costumes. Since crown gems do not show the actual price of something but generated on a chance of getting them from spending real money. If you want to charge $500 for a mount, then be honest and open and just charge the $500. Don’t try to hide the actual cost behind a fake name such as crown gems.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/566174/opinion-the-revealed-crown-gems-for-radiants-amounts-are-fair/p2

FYI, subbed for 6 plus years, ever since it came out for console in June 2015. Purchased many items from the crown store.

Stay safe and Happy Holidays

TheInfernalRage

For some reason, maybe because there are just too many janitors in ZOS, many of the essentials in the game are ignored in the tutorials. I would not have agreed that the re-spec scrolls are predatory and exploitative if its use was integrated into the tutorial itself. The game does not explain everything. You need Google and YouTube. The game can't provide everything that the overall gameplay requires. You need the exploitation of modders. Heck, even to get a general overview of what is going on with the lore and stories, you need a website to sort out which quest line to take first and which is next.

The idea that ZOS is not earning much is ridiculous. They are earning much, but for some reason there appears to be no significant improvement to its network infrastructure, no stable gameplay mechanics, bugs appear to be treated as features, so on and so on.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

kargen27

SilverBride wrote: »

These "content creators" are nothing more than gamers giving their opinions, and what they think or say is no more valid than any other gamers' opinions. Just being on YouTube does not instantly make them an authority on anything they choose to talk about.

They are a little more than that. Or a little less actually when it comes to considering their opinions. They need the clicks and the best way to get clicks is go negative. They say what they think will get them the biggest reaction most of the time.

Just like when pages "dedicated" to music do a video about the most overrated bands of all time and the Beatles is number three on their list.
The ones covering ESO will go after crown crates because they know that is a hot topic and if they were covering heavy metal they would claim Black Sabbath was just a pop band. They don't care if you agree or disagree they just want you to respond.

mickeyx

thorwyn wrote: »

So the new euphemism for cheekyness is "convenience" now.
If ZOS decided to offer stacks of basic style materials or potency runes for 700c, it would also be a matter of convenience because the player doesn't need to go and find the NPC?
Also, it is funny that you mention the fact that not many players are aware of the gold/crown conversion rates as an excuse and assume that those who are aware of the rates are the ones that know how to port to a shrine That is EXACTLY the point that people are complaining about: Taking advantage of a lack of knowledge. If players do that by selling NPC stuff to newbies, it creates an outrage. If a company does essentially the same, it is convenience.

As for the help menu: I might be wrong at this one because I just briefly checked one of the videos on the matter, so feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, the word "respec" does not exist in the help menu. It is called rededication. And if new players don't know how to find a shrine in a city, they most certainly don't know the correct word to look for.

All the discussion aside, in my opinion, Rich Lambert shouldn't have replied to all this on stream. [snip]

I saw that stream and the way he was dropping F bombs and was so rude shocked me. Not to mention how he banned the content creator for simply asking a question? A lot of players were taken aback by his behavior and i know few who decided to stop playing the game over this.

[edited to remove quote]

BlossomDead

mickeyx wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

So the new euphemism for cheekyness is "convenience" now.
If ZOS decided to offer stacks of basic style materials or potency runes for 700c, it would also be a matter of convenience because the player doesn't need to go and find the NPC?
Also, it is funny that you mention the fact that not many players are aware of the gold/crown conversion rates as an excuse and assume that those who are aware of the rates are the ones that know how to port to a shrine That is EXACTLY the point that people are complaining about: Taking advantage of a lack of knowledge. If players do that by selling NPC stuff to newbies, it creates an outrage. If a company does essentially the same, it is convenience.

As for the help menu: I might be wrong at this one because I just briefly checked one of the videos on the matter, so feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, the word "respec" does not exist in the help menu. It is called rededication. And if new players don't know how to find a shrine in a city, they most certainly don't know the correct word to look for.

All the discussion aside, in my opinion, Rich Lambert shouldn't have replied to all this on stream. [snip]

I saw that stream and the way he was dropping F bombs and was so rude shocked me. Not to mention how he banned the content creator for simply asking a question? A lot of players were taken aback by his behavior and i know few who decided to stop playing the game over this.

Who did he ban?

[edited to remove quote]

Hurbster

mickeyx wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

So the new euphemism for cheekyness is "convenience" now.
If ZOS decided to offer stacks of basic style materials or potency runes for 700c, it would also be a matter of convenience because the player doesn't need to go and find the NPC?
Also, it is funny that you mention the fact that not many players are aware of the gold/crown conversion rates as an excuse and assume that those who are aware of the rates are the ones that know how to port to a shrine That is EXACTLY the point that people are complaining about: Taking advantage of a lack of knowledge. If players do that by selling NPC stuff to newbies, it creates an outrage. If a company does essentially the same, it is convenience.

As for the help menu: I might be wrong at this one because I just briefly checked one of the videos on the matter, so feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, the word "respec" does not exist in the help menu. It is called rededication. And if new players don't know how to find a shrine in a city, they most certainly don't know the correct word to look for.

All the discussion aside, in my opinion, Rich Lambert shouldn't have replied to all this on stream. [snip]

I saw that stream and the way he was dropping F bombs and was so rude shocked me. Not to mention how he banned the content creator for simply asking a question? A lot of players were taken aback by his behavior and i know few who decided to stop playing the game over this.

You know what ? It reminded me of the Bioware devs [snip] on the old Bioware forums that we used to have. With more swearing. Not a good look at all.

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

BretonMage

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

A lot of the YouTube videos is merely chit-bait to generate views for personal gain. So, I take them all with very small grain of salt.

Yes, it's just the outrage-for-clicks show we're getting there on YT. I think YT can be great for instructional videos, not so much for opinion pieces, where you're better off getting solid facts and making up your own mind.

The Crown Store has always been expensive, but thankfully outside a few cases, there are usually alternatives.

SeaGtGruff

BlossomDead wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

So the new euphemism for cheekyness is "convenience" now.
If ZOS decided to offer stacks of basic style materials or potency runes for 700c, it would also be a matter of convenience because the player doesn't need to go and find the NPC?
Also, it is funny that you mention the fact that not many players are aware of the gold/crown conversion rates as an excuse and assume that those who are aware of the rates are the ones that know how to port to a shrine That is EXACTLY the point that people are complaining about: Taking advantage of a lack of knowledge. If players do that by selling NPC stuff to newbies, it creates an outrage. If a company does essentially the same, it is convenience.

As for the help menu: I might be wrong at this one because I just briefly checked one of the videos on the matter, so feel free to correct me, but as far as I know, the word "respec" does not exist in the help menu. It is called rededication. And if new players don't know how to find a shrine in a city, they most certainly don't know the correct word to look for.

All the discussion aside, in my opinion, Rich Lambert shouldn't have replied to all this on stream. [snip]

I saw that stream and the way he was dropping F bombs and was so rude shocked me. Not to mention how he banned the content creator for simply asking a question? A lot of players were taken aback by his behavior and i know few who decided to stop playing the game over this.

Who did he ban?

I didn't see the stream being discussed, but I just want to point out that "ban" in this context refers to banning a Twitch viewer from posting comments in the streamer's chat, not banning a player from the game. Streamers ban "problem" viewers all the time-- people who start posting disruptive comments in the chat. A viewer might post something lewd, or post a link to their own channel, or start acting up in other ways and refuse to stop when asked to, etc., so the streamer will ban the viewer. And if the streamer has a mod, it's usually the mod who does the banning, not the streamer.

[edited to remove quote]

SerafinaWaterstar

I care not a jot about the opinion of ‘content creators’ - (btw, who came up with that name, as it is not really applicable!!)

I understand the business need for the Crown Store; I just don’t appreciate some items only being available via Crown Crates. I would prefer for all items to be in Crown store for direct purchase, with the option to gamble for them via crates (if crates are deemed necessary - personally I’d be happy for them to be removed from the game as they add little value).

Wow

THE ABSOLUTE WORST

etchedpixels

carlos424 wrote: »

Why can’t zos put a little disclaimer on crown store items that can be obtained in-game? “This item can also be obtained in-game. For more information see the help menu.” Or something to that effect.

One of the big issues is that very few things are explained. There is no guide that I know of. You just get a few information blurbs during load screens.

They have actually done that for some of the newer ones they've added but they've unfortunately not gone back over the old ones - which does (and always did) look bad. The newer crafting motif crown store books for example say things like "Also obtainable as a drop from the final boss of xyz" etc.

The biggest problem though is that none of the well known information sources include a casual misers guide to playing ESO on the cheap. One that explains things like

- Porting to imperial city rather than buying merchant/banker
- Getting the free house in Elsweyr or a low gold cost one or two if you don't have that chapter
- Which houses to buy for gold to avoid wayshrine porting costs (Sugar Bowl, Snugpod etc)
- Where to go to get all the in game personalities, emotes, pets, polymorphs that are free
- Using other toons as storage
- Joining a guild with crafting tables
- Getting the free twitch crates

Overall though most of it seems fairly well thought out. If you just want to pick up the base game and spend a few months wandering through the story lines as a Skyrim like questing game you don't need any of the other bits. If you are going to play a lot then you probably want ESO+ and compared to the price of many other things for the hours you get it's pretty cheap.

You don't need the banker, the $200 house without enough furnishing slots or the silly costumes and mounts.

Wow

etchedpixels wrote: »

You don't need the banker, the $200 house without enough furnishing slots or the silly costumes and mounts.

You do need the banker. Everytime I see guildie/discord friends asking for what item should they get from crown store, I always answer

"Banker", "Banker", "Banker"

You'll need it

pklemming

'In Section 6, we’ve added Virtual Currency to the list of content for which we will not be liable if lost and that you will forfeit if we close or suspend your account. '

ZoS just went down 100 points in my opinion. Have a beta account. As soon as something that keeps my interest comes along, I will be leaving.

Your faction standing with Pklemming got worse.
Pklemming glowers at you dubiously.

Veita

Absolutely true and I wish people would also take other games and compare them to ESO. You won't find a single MMORPG where the monetization is that player friendly as it is in ESO.

In my opinion, people are just greedy and want everything for free and if possible in the highest quality.

etchedpixels

Wow wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

You don't need the banker, the $200 house without enough furnishing slots or the silly costumes and mounts.

You do need the banker. Everytime I see guildie/discord friends asking for what item should they get from crown store, I always answer

"Banker", "Banker", "Banker"

You'll need it

Need is relative. It's a nice convenience item but it's certainly not a "need".

If you don't have the banker or merchant then in most places you just hit L, imperial city, and voila bank, merchant, crafting tables to deconstruct all the jiunk you picked up, armour repair, and a banker that lets you add access the guild. A load of facilities actually not available from the crown store NPCs.

From overland you get ported back to where you were, from delves it ports you back to outside the delve - so you do the delve, hit IC and avoid even having to walk out of the delve.

For group dungeons/trials it's more of an issue but in a trial someone will have one, and in a dungeon if you try and pull out a merchant or banker the rest of the group will generally have left you far behind so you have to plan in advance.

If you have crowns burning a hole in your pocket then yes I agree it's a good to have option, and with ESO+ you get a load of crowns so it's kind of bundled in with the ESO+ if you play with ESO+ for a few months.

Jaimeh

The videos were specifically critisizing Rich's response to someone calling out ZOS for advertizing respec scrolls, and his support towards that practice. If you check out the tweets below that advertisement, or the comments on those videos, there's been indeed a lot of players who didn't know better and bought scrolls/bites/cures, and regretted it when they found out the alternative means not involving real money. [snip] (and while I concede that maybe a player would knowingly rather sprend a few thousand crowns because they didn't have 1500 gold in-game, which was one of his main arguments, I guarrantee that these would be a rarity). Of course he is entitled to express his opinion in his own platform, and personally I think it's great he's engaging with players even regarding the not-so-savoury aspects of the game, instead of avoiding them, but in this case, I still think staunchly supporting these crown items, [snip] was perhaps not the best idea.

[edited for bashing]

Firstmep

Jaimeh wrote: »

The videos were specifically critisizing Rich's response to someone calling out ZOS for advertizing respec scrolls, and his support towards that practice. If you check out the tweets below that advertisement, or the comments on those videos, there's been indeed a lot of players who didn't know better and bought scrolls/bites/cures, and regretted it when they found out the alternative means not involving real money. [snip] (and while I concede that maybe a player would knowingly rather sprend a few thousand crowns because they didn't have 1500 gold in-game, which was one of his main arguments, I guarrantee that these would be a rarity). Of course he is entitled to express his opinion in his own platform, and personally I think it's great he's engaging with players even regarding the not-so-savoury aspects of the game, instead of avoiding them, but in this case, I still think staunchly supporting these crown items, [snip] was perhaps not the best idea.

He is not really in a position to publicly go against the very company he works for.
It's not unusual for company to contractually restrict their employees communication about their employers good or bad.
As Creative Lead, criticizing the very monetization practices that pay his salary would be a bit wierd also.

[edited to remove quote]

AinSoph

Less than 5 minutes really cost more than 1m+ gold, huh...

pklemming

If you watch them, it was not just that he was 'not going against them', it was the whole way he dealt with the questions. Amazingly poor PR for the public domain.

Vulkunne

The gaming industry is no stranger to corruption however there's a difference between these small problems with eso and mass casualty events with others such as, but not limited to, EA and Activision. Big Big Difference and I'm glad we don't have those same issues here.

Elsonso

BuildMan wrote: »

Personally I am just annoyed by the constant decline of quality they offer. Last sub I had was Nov. 2017, after they stopped the crown crates for subs during ESO+ trial and gave out a whopping 10-15% discount on specific crown items I was done.

Huh. I consider the "free Crown Crates" to be largely worthless. In a daily reward scenario, I tend to rank them along with the free Crown Poisons, which I have never found a pressing need for. When they were in the rewards line up, they basically replaced better items. I get that people get "upset" that ZOS is not putting them in the daily rewards, and I have no recollection of them ever being involved with ESO Plus, but to me ZOS might as well be handing out free handfuls of dirt.

The entire Crown Crate/Gem system should be aged out and scrapped, the rewards they provide mainlined into the Crown Store, and Seals used to buy anything in the Crown Store.

Casul

Elsonso wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Personally I am just annoyed by the constant decline of quality they offer. Last sub I had was Nov. 2017, after they stopped the crown crates for subs during ESO+ trial and gave out a whopping 10-15% discount on specific crown items I was done.

Huh. I consider the "free Crown Crates" to be largely worthless. In a daily reward scenario, I tend to rank them along with the free Crown Poisons, which I have never found a pressing need for. When they were in the rewards line up, they basically replaced better items. I get that people get "upset" that ZOS is not putting them in the daily rewards, and I have no recollection of them ever being involved with ESO Plus, but to me ZOS might as well be handing out free handfuls of dirt.

The entire Crown Crate/Gem system should be aged out and scrapped, the rewards they provide mainlined into the Crown Store, and Seals used to buy anything in the Crown Store.

A long time ago whenever there was an ESO+ trial all current subs would get 1 crate per day they logged in and killed a monster. This lead to 10-15 crates per year. I do agree that it was pretty worthless (although I did get the frost bear from a free crate). But more importantly it allowed me to stack up a bit of crown gems each year which I saved to buy myself a gem mount.

After that ended and was replaced with a lackluster (IMO) crown store discount I just couldn't support the practice any longer.

Now honestly I agree that ideally the crates would be scrapped, but I do not feel like that will ever happen so least they could do is bring the sub back to its old value (for me).

Honestly, I have been playing this game for 6 years across 2 platforms now. I love it, but eventually I need to leave. I feel like I am just waiting for something new to keep my attention permenantly (maybe Elden Ring will be the final nail in the coffin).

SilverBride

Wow wrote: »

You do need the banker. Everytime I see guildie/discord friends asking for what item should they get from crown store, I always answer

"Banker", "Banker", "Banker"

You'll need it

I don't have the banker and never will because I see no use for it. When I need to bank I just go to any town with a bank and use theirs.

When I see players with their banker out in town all I can think is they actually spent money for this to avoid walking a few more steps. I just don't get it.