My thoughts on the recent outrage about ESO's monetization practices

AuraStorm43

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

Its not just “outrage youtubers” and if you can’t see anything wrong with the crown store i dunno what to tell you

kargen27

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I think you underestimate just how much of this game is behind a paywall, nearly half the dungeons in this game are paywalled

I will never understand this line of thinking. Are you expecting all new content for free after whatever time you entered the game? Developing content costs money, period. Either you find value in what is being provided or you do not and you make your purchasing decision accordingly. But implying that new content should arrive at little to no cost is simply not living in reality.

I never said that i wanted all new content to be free, dunno where you got that idea but its a nice strawman i guess, I’m well aware these things cost money but with how overmonitized this game is, they should put some older dlc ahead of the pay wall

etchedpixels wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I’m not talking about those games i’m talking about ESO, the game has 20 dungeons, 2 character classes, multiple skill lines, and half the raids locked behind a paywall, multiple paywalls in some cases

As I said before by this definition the whole game is behind a paywall because it's not free to download!

If you buy the base game you can complete the base game just fine without loot boxes and without all the other garbage that afflicts many other modern (particularly phone and 'esport') games. You can complete all the story lines and all the things you bought access too. You don't get half way through and discover that you can't get past level 20 without buying an upgrade, or that you can't complete a quest boss without loot box gear.

You can “do well” sure but you’ll be at a disadvantage compared to people who pay the sub and buy the chapter that is pay to win

There is probably only one spot where it's of any material relevance - that's PvP where not having some of the additional content means you lack access to some of the mythic items. In the PvE space you can happily complete what you get without being mugged by surprise along the way.

Not to mention the time saver micros like shards and skill lines, lootboxes, and outdated stuff like werewolf/vampire bites and respec scrolls that take advantage of new players

They've made the recent ones actually warn you that they can be obtained from other places. They badly need to update the existing ones, on that I agree.

Its not just PVP on the PVE front you are put at a significant disadvantage by not paying, it really adds up between mythics, lack of jewelry crafting, and lack of newer better gear

You can’t even get maelstrom weapons without orsinium, and every PVE build runs them

You pay for new content. That is to be expected. To your point though unless you are trying to get on leader boards the maelstrom weapons make very little difference at all. Crafted gear from the original zones are more than good enough to clear any content in the game. PvE gear really doesn't matter near as much as people seem to think. It actually matters very little.
PvP gear does matter a bit more but again not nearly so much as what people like to believe. You can be competitive with crafted and dropped gear from the original zones.

SeaGtGruff

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

Its not just “outrage youtubers” and if you can’t see anything wrong with the crown store i dunno what to tell you

I don't see anything wrong with the Crown Store-- but then, I have no trouble walking away from games of chance, or buying a lot of unnecessary stuff, or the "fear of missing out" that some people seem to get so wrapped up in.

If some people have trouble shopping smart-- or not shopping at all-- in the Crown Store, they probably have trouble shopping smart in other stores, too.

SilverBride

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

RicAlmighty

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I think you underestimate just how much of this game is behind a paywall, nearly half the dungeons in this game are paywalled

I will never understand this line of thinking. Are you expecting all new content for free after whatever time you entered the game? Developing content costs money, period. Either you find value in what is being provided or you do not and you make your purchasing decision accordingly. But implying that new content should arrive at little to no cost is simply not living in reality.

I never said that i wanted all new content to be free, dunno where you got that idea but its a nice strawman i guess, I’m well aware these things cost money but with how overmonitized this game is, they should put some older dlc ahead of the pay wall

"ahead of the pay wall"

.... so, free?

Integral1900

The following is just my own dose of hard earned cynicism

May I ask as politely as possible that phrases like outrage are saved for situations that warrant it. It’s a game. If you don’t enjoy it’s tactics vote with your wallet and try another. No worries.

The game gets my subscription because I feel the pleasure it gives me is well worth the price. I feel it is only reasonable I contribute to it in return. Besides, the crown store sells so little I want. If they made packs like tanned skin tones I could give to my Nords, the tans some Nord npcs have, I’d buy it, but they don’t, all we get are the cheesy special effects, but that’s fine, I assume they know their market. My wife would love to be able to bulk up the physique of the female charecters, more like the female barbarian from a certain daemon slaying game, but it’s never gonna happen because, as is the case with pretty much all games, while male characters can be as big as you like the ladies are limited to a sort of malnourished swimwear model.

Outrage is a basic commercial tactic, so much so I avoid click bait because I now assume I’m either being lied to or massively exaggerated to as both are safe conclusions. YouTube and social media in general are profoundly unhealthy sources for news, they want to make you angry because it makes them money. Personally I allow a creator two free and unjustified rants, after that they’d better have a good reason or I’m hitting the block button.

Also, who uses the in game help? All in game help is useless. When I wanted to respec I didn’t even consider the in game help, I just googled it, pointed me straight at the shrines in the capitols. Pretty sure most players don’t care the help even exists

Never needed to buy xp boosters given this game doles out xp events and free scrolls like a drunk uncle. Respec is so cheep I only use the armoury system because it’s quicker. Besides, the game unloads gold on you like ping pong balls out of a rouge dump truck

Casul

SilverBride wrote: »

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

Destroy crown store/crates and make the game sub to play with 1 paid expansion per year. That is fair.

SilverBride

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

Destroy crown store/crates and make the game sub to play with 1 paid expansion per year. That is fair.

I seriously doubt they will go back to requiring a subscription again.

Malthorne

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

Destroy crown store/crates and make the game sub to play with 1 paid expansion per year. That is fair.

This would be ideal, but unfortunately ESO just isn’t good enough to succeed with a mandatory subscription.

jedtb16_ESO

recent outrage?

Casul

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

Destroy crown store/crates and make the game sub to play with 1 paid expansion per year. That is fair.

I seriously doubt they will go back to requiring a subscription again.

Yeah me too, but that would be the best result for overall game health. They would have consistent income and would not need to monetize everything.

Kiralyn2000

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The game doesn't require a subscription and not everyone does subscribe. How do you expect them to keep the lights on?

Destroy crown store/crates and make the game sub to play with 1 paid expansion per year. That is fair.

I seriously doubt they will go back to requiring a subscription again.

Yeah me too, but that would be the best result for overall game health. They would have consistent income and would not need to monetize everything.

Well, except for the part where they went away from subs for "overall game health" - i.e, the game didn't have enough players and was failing.

Amottica

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I think you underestimate just how much of this game is behind a paywall, nearly half the dungeons in this game are paywalled

And if you don't buy the new WoW expansion, you're locked out of a pile of dungeons and raids. (as well as PvP, since they have level cap increases, so you get left behind as the rest of the PvPers advance to a higher level bracket & power level)

Ditto with every other MMO that has expansions/zone DLC/etc.

And any other RPG that has expansions that introduce new areas & dungeons. (wow, all of Far Harbor & Nuka World were paywalled in Fallout 4! Plus new weapons & armor! /shocked)


Why am I supposed to be upset, here? I've been buying game expansions/etc since at least the 90's.

I agree. Especially since Zenimax does give us access to all zones from time to time so we can get the gear and whatever drops there if we desire. Much better than other games at this level.

Almakor

The should use the money to fix all the bugs and to keep from making expansions that are filled with bugs. Plain and simple.

Kwoung

My issue isn't with the crown store, if I choose to buy those items or gamble on those crates, that's on me. That said, the complete lack of any comparable items in many cases being able to be earned in game, definitely puts me off. I am not sure if this perspective has been brought up, but I enjoy earning items because it gives me something to do. Now that I have played all the content I want, and there is nothing cool left to earn, I am at a dead end. If however there were more mounts, houses, outfits to go out and earn... I would be all over it.

So while their monetization is all well and good, its impact on the amount of fun content in game isn't. For the first time in years, I am *NOT* buying crowns during the sale right now, because I have no real reason to login on any sort of regular basis, so buying anything would simply be a waste.

I was looking around for another game, and apparently in FFXIV you earn all these types of items in game... sadly that game is sold out at the moment so I can't just jump right in.

kargen27

Almakor wrote: »

The should use the money to fix all the bugs and to keep from making expansions that are filled with bugs. Plain and simple.

The team working on new content is not the same team that does the troubleshooting and debugging. Different skill sets involved. Throwing more money or more resources/people at a problem doesn't always translate to that probem being solved quicker. Often it actually slows progress.

Jaxious79

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

Its not just “outrage youtubers” and if you can’t see anything wrong with the crown store i dunno what to tell you

Well good thing I'm not asking anyone here to tell me anything. I don't see anything wrong with the crown store I have a different opinion and that is fine. If these youtubers were not all at the same time talking about the same thing you wouldn't be here either. See I can form my own opinion without listening to YouTube.

Elsonso

Almakor wrote: »

The should use the money to fix all the bugs and to keep from making expansions that are filled with bugs. Plain and simple.

Do not agree. They need to be fixing bugs and developing content concurrently.

Edit: I would not wait around, if they stopped developing new content and only fixed bugs. Even if they only took a year. By the time they did something that would attract my business, the momentum would be lost.

Casul

Jaxious79 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

Its not just “outrage youtubers” and if you can’t see anything wrong with the crown store i dunno what to tell you

Well good thing I'm not asking anyone here to tell me anything. I don't see anything wrong with the crown store I have a different opinion and that is fine. If these youtubers were not all at the same time talking about the same thing you wouldn't be here either. See I can form my own opinion without listening to YouTube.

Or most of us have been silent and now that there is a more public outroar we are joining in hopes that the developers actually care.

MatarRebel

If a company's practices or policies "enrage" you, you should stop using their services. Period. This ain't rocket science. Don't like it? Build you own product and community. Quit trying to change what a huge number of people already use and appreciate.

FlopsyPrince

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

[snip] That is how they stay in business!

That is not necessarily a bad thing per se, but what can be bad is some of the ways MMOs do it. Selling cheap in game things for a comparatively high Crown cost is a bad thing. It would be better if it clearly noted on the purchase that in game options exist that may be cheaper.

Even Amazon does that in their store!

[edited for bashing]

Kiralyn2000

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

[snip] That is how they stay in business!

Yep, the "outrage" youtubers are trying to take advantage of you, because that (clicks & views) is how they stay in business & earn their income from being a performer on the internet.

(just like the "outrage" talk show hosts on TV and radio, the "outrage" editorial writers on blogs & newspapers, the "outrage" politicians & facebook cultists, etc... people have learned that Outrage is a great way to get an engaged audience. To the detriment of rational debate and compromise.)

[edited to remove quote]

Casul

MatarRebel wrote: »

If a company's practices or policies "enrage" you, you should stop using their services. Period. This ain't rocket science. Don't like it? Build you own product and community. Quit trying to change what a huge number of people already use and appreciate.

Which many of us are, I finally deleted the game after 6 years of consistent support. Just because we aren't playing doesn't mean we can't speak our minds of why we made the decision.

Elvenheart

BuildMan wrote: »

MatarRebel wrote: »

If a company's practices or policies "enrage" you, you should stop using their services. Period. This ain't rocket science. Don't like it? Build you own product and community. Quit trying to change what a huge number of people already use and appreciate.

Which many of us are, I finally deleted the game after 6 years of consistent support. Just because we aren't playing doesn't mean we can't speak our minds of why we made the decision.

You’ve played and enjoyed the game for six years, but quit because ZOS sells in-game items to customers who choose to buy them? If you enjoy the game enough wouldn’t a better way to fight the depravities of monetization in a game you enjoy be to play and enjoy it in a way that gives ZOS as little money as possible, like never buying crowns and not subscribing to ESO+, just maybe getting the DLC if it’s something you like? This is just my opinion of course, but for me, giving up something I enjoy as much as I enjoy ESO just to make a point would end up hurting me far more than it would ever hurt ZOS, no matter how much money I spend on the game over the course of its life.

Jaxious79

BuildMan wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

"Outrage" "youtube" come on. They are just looking for clicks there is nothing wrong with the cash shop they are not out to get you or take advantage of you.

Its not just “outrage youtubers” and if you can’t see anything wrong with the crown store i dunno what to tell you

Well good thing I'm not asking anyone here to tell me anything. I don't see anything wrong with the crown store I have a different opinion and that is fine. If these youtubers were not all at the same time talking about the same thing you wouldn't be here either. See I can form my own opinion without listening to YouTube.

Or most of us have been silent and now that there is a more public outroar we are joining in hopes that the developers actually care.

The Game is as populated as ever right now. People are everywhere, try logging into the game instead of watching youtubers about the game.

You and "most" of whoever else you are referring to are a tiny majority of the player base.

Nanfoodle

Yup funny how this nonprofit group keeps looking for ways to earn money. Honestly this is a business. ESO has a tone of things included with the box price. Even things like the Armory System that's been added that people are upset about csn be used 100% for free. 99.999% of the Crown store is cosmetics or convenience items and you need never buy the stuff there.

I love my ESO Plus membership. It's awesome value and this months crowns I get with my membership will be used for an armory slot for my main. Gonna make a tank build Keep up the great work Zeni. Microsoft pls upgrade this gsmes servers pls.

LadyDestiny

carlos424 wrote: »

Why can’t zos put a little disclaimer on crown store items that can be obtained in-game? “This item can also be obtained in-game. For more information see the help menu.” Or something to that effect.

One of the big issues is that very few things are explained. There is no guide that I know of. You just get a few information blurbs during load screens.

I wish they would do this with crown store furnishings when you are in your house. If you go into the purchase menu, there is no way to tell what is available in game as a drop or a furnishing plan.

They could place an icon next to it like a crown for crown purchase only and a small page for available as a plan.

There are hundreds of furnishings in the crown store. Most are way too expensive and some that really have no business being a crown store item. Burning logs come to mind and wish this was just automatically given when purchasing a home with fireplaces. I also wish they would just make them all a provisioning station. Makes sense.

I can't even use the huge kitchen fire in my princely dawnlight palace. I mean seriously? I even tried putting the christmas logs in it that are a provisioning station and you can't access it.

Charon_on_Vacation

everyone can decide themselves if they see it as a problem or not, but there is one undeniable fact.
crown crates were made with the intent to exploit the behaviour of customers. same goes for FOMO.
that is the reason why they exist. to exploit customers.
you can say its the customers fault for falling for it, and if that is your opinion, fine.
but keep in mind, they intentionally made those loot boxes to exploit the people that do fall for it.

SilverBride

LadyDestiny wrote: »

I wish they would do this with crown store furnishings when you are in your house. If you go into the purchase menu, there is no way to tell what is available in game as a drop or a furnishing plan.

When I see an item I want in the purchase tab the first thing I do is go here to see how else I can obtain it. Search by category, find the item, click on it and it tells you if it's something that can be crafted or part of a furnishing pack, etc..

https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/furnishings/

It's up to the player to be an informed consumer.

BomblePants

The apparently ‘predatory’ behaviour of the crown store is just marketing. As consumer's we are subject to marketing in every facet of life, from what clothes we ‘choose’ to wear right down to the foods we eat… it is all rather predatory, that’s the point of all marketing.

I’ve said it many times…based on the f2p model we essentially have here, how do people expect an MMO of this size and quality to keep running otherwise?