My thoughts on the recent outrage about ESO's monetization practices

FlopsyPrince

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Here's how they could fix that system: keep the loot box system, but remove the ability to buy them for real money. Make it so in order to get loot boxes, you have to do game content, you have to play their game.

The Endeavor system seems to do some of this.

I am not sure how anyone can buy some of the things there. I though I have done them since they started (with only a few missed ones) but can't afford the more expensive items.

Ironically I will probably never buy something with them though since they take so long to earn and I have this idea that hangs in my head "what if I need it later" in so many areas.

I would highly recommend tweaking the loot box system to give more rewards in a sustainable (from their view) way. Let people gamble with them, but don't make it so rare as it is now for a single "good" item. How many skins, emotes and useless mats do I need?

SilverBride

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

These services only really prey on those that are super lazy, people that are in dungeons/trials, or in most cases, new players who don't know better. 90% comes from such players, which is why it's predatory.

That is pure speculation. There is no data to back this up. But what if there was? It is not predatory to offer players convenience.

Someone may not want to find all the skyshards on all of their alts again, for example. This doesn't mean they are super lazy, but what if they were? What does it matter what their reason is for buying skyshards? ZoS isn't going to say you can buy skyshards for convenience but not if you are super lazy.

Nor are they going to ask if a player is new and if they did their research into how the crown system works before making a purchase.

Caveat Emptor.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

These services only really prey on those that are super lazy, people that are in dungeons/trials, or in most cases, new players who don't know better. 90% comes from such players, which is why it's predatory.

That is pure speculation. There is no data to back this up. But what if there was? It is not predatory to offer players convenience.

Someone may not want to find all the skyshards on all of their alts again, for example. This doesn't mean they are super lazy, but what if they were? What does it matter what their reason is for buying skyshards? ZoS isn't going to say you can buy skyshards for convenience but not if you are super lazy.

Nor are they going to ask if a player is new and if they did their research into how the crown system works before making a purchase.

Caveat Emptor.

Caring about your customers has long been shown to be profitable across many types of businesses. Few companies that view their customers as fat sheep to fleece stay profitable in the long term. (Exceptions do exists, but they are exceptions for a reason.)

SeaGtGruff

Once upon a time, I vowed

Kwoung wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

everyone can decide themselves if they see it as a problem or not, but there is one undeniable fact.
crown crates were made with the intent to exploit the behaviour of customers. same goes for FOMO.
that is the reason why they exist. to exploit customers.
you can say its the customers fault for falling for it, and if that is your opinion, fine.
but keep in mind, they intentionally made those loot boxes to exploit the people that do fall for it.

Yea right if you look at it that way then marketing itself is exploitation of consumers. Look at 'limited time sale','artificial scarcity','advertising only the beneficial side of the product', 'fomo' as you said.

Honestly it is up to the consumers to decide whether they would purchase the products, or else you might as well pitch for the banning of advertising and sales strategy lol, which is not sensible at all.

Honestly, FOMO is a everyday occurrence in the ESO crown store... and that is the only place I have ever encountered it in my 60+ years as a consumer. It is not a widely used practice in marketing by any means, and the places I have heard of it, were truly limited time purchases, like those fancy Air Jordans or whatever, of which they only make a few of, retire the mold and are actual collector items you can trade or sell, not a fake digital item locked to your account and they will re-release over and over and over as a "limited time item", and eventually disappear when the game ends.

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around your comment. You're suggesting that "fear of missing out" is something that occurs only in the ESO Crown Store, that it doesn't occur anywhere else in the consumer marketplaces of the world? So does that mean the phrase "fear of missing out" and its "FOMO" abbreviation were coined entirely in response to the ESO Crown Store?

SilverBride

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Caring about your customers has long been shown to be profitable across many types of businesses. Few companies that view their customers as fat sheep to fleece stay profitable in the long term. (Exceptions do exists, but they are exceptions for a reason.)

How is the crown store an example of not caring about their customers? They offer a product, the player can purchase it or not. They are not responsible to make sure the player can afford it any more than a department store or a movie theater or a new car dealership is. It is up to the consumer to monitor their own spending.

Kwoung

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Once upon a time, I vowed

Kwoung wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

everyone can decide themselves if they see it as a problem or not, but there is one undeniable fact.
crown crates were made with the intent to exploit the behaviour of customers. same goes for FOMO.
that is the reason why they exist. to exploit customers.
you can say its the customers fault for falling for it, and if that is your opinion, fine.
but keep in mind, they intentionally made those loot boxes to exploit the people that do fall for it.

Yea right if you look at it that way then marketing itself is exploitation of consumers. Look at 'limited time sale','artificial scarcity','advertising only the beneficial side of the product', 'fomo' as you said.

Honestly it is up to the consumers to decide whether they would purchase the products, or else you might as well pitch for the banning of advertising and sales strategy lol, which is not sensible at all.

Honestly, FOMO is a everyday occurrence in the ESO crown store... and that is the only place I have ever encountered it in my 60+ years as a consumer. It is not a widely used practice in marketing by any means, and the places I have heard of it, were truly limited time purchases, like those fancy Air Jordans or whatever, of which they only make a few of, retire the mold and are actual collector items you can trade or sell, not a fake digital item locked to your account and they will re-release over and over and over as a "limited time item", and eventually disappear when the game ends.

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around your comment. You're suggesting that "fear of missing out" is something that occurs only in the ESO Crown Store, that it doesn't occur anywhere else in the consumer marketplaces of the world? So does that mean the phrase "fear of missing out" and its "FOMO" abbreviation were coined entirely in response to the ESO Crown Store?

No, I didn't say that at all. I said it is a fairly rare marketing technique IRL, at least one I rarely encounter.... yet ZOS uses it constantly, to the point of it being their main way of marketing crown store items.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Caring about your customers has long been shown to be profitable across many types of businesses. Few companies that view their customers as fat sheep to fleece stay profitable in the long term. (Exceptions do exists, but they are exceptions for a reason.)

How is the crown store an example of not caring about their customers? They offer a product, the player can purchase it or not. They are not responsible to make sure the player can afford it any more than a department store or a movie theater or a new car dealership is. It is up to the consumer to monitor their own spending.

Selling things that are overpriced is an example of that. Look at how well GameStop is doing now, having scammed customers on many things in the past.

(Some of their challenge deals with the changing retail area, but some is that they were happy to push junk on others.)

SilverBride

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Selling things that are overpriced is an example of that.

What what player considers overpriced another may find reasonable.

It all boils down to the player not spending more than they can afford. It is not ZoS's responsibility to monitor that.

SeaGtGruff

Kwoung wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Once upon a time, I vowed

Kwoung wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

everyone can decide themselves if they see it as a problem or not, but there is one undeniable fact.
crown crates were made with the intent to exploit the behaviour of customers. same goes for FOMO.
that is the reason why they exist. to exploit customers.
you can say its the customers fault for falling for it, and if that is your opinion, fine.
but keep in mind, they intentionally made those loot boxes to exploit the people that do fall for it.

Yea right if you look at it that way then marketing itself is exploitation of consumers. Look at 'limited time sale','artificial scarcity','advertising only the beneficial side of the product', 'fomo' as you said.

Honestly it is up to the consumers to decide whether they would purchase the products, or else you might as well pitch for the banning of advertising and sales strategy lol, which is not sensible at all.

Honestly, FOMO is a everyday occurrence in the ESO crown store... and that is the only place I have ever encountered it in my 60+ years as a consumer. It is not a widely used practice in marketing by any means, and the places I have heard of it, were truly limited time purchases, like those fancy Air Jordans or whatever, of which they only make a few of, retire the mold and are actual collector items you can trade or sell, not a fake digital item locked to your account and they will re-release over and over and over as a "limited time item", and eventually disappear when the game ends.

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around your comment. You're suggesting that "fear of missing out" is something that occurs only in the ESO Crown Store, that it doesn't occur anywhere else in the consumer marketplaces of the world? So does that mean the phrase "fear of missing out" and its "FOMO" abbreviation were coined entirely in response to the ESO Crown Store?

No, I didn't say that at all. I said it is a fairly rare marketing technique IRL, at least one I rarely encounter.... yet ZOS uses it constantly, to the point of it being their main way of marketing crown store items.

But I see it used all the time in the consumer marketplace. I get emails from companies I've bought from before about new software synths that are on sale for a special introductory price for a limited time, after which they will go up to their normal selling price, so hurry up and buy them at their introductory price while you can! I get coupons in the mail for special prices on food items and combo meals from restaurant chains and fast food restaurants, valid only for the date range printed on the coupons, so come in and eat now! I see new book releases on sale for 30% off-- members save 40%!-- but only for a limited time, after which they go up to their normal cover prices. I can go on, but you get the drift. If all of that isn't trying to appeal to the potential buyer's fear of missing out, then what is it appealing to?

Kwoung

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Once upon a time, I vowed

Kwoung wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

everyone can decide themselves if they see it as a problem or not, but there is one undeniable fact.
crown crates were made with the intent to exploit the behaviour of customers. same goes for FOMO.
that is the reason why they exist. to exploit customers.
you can say its the customers fault for falling for it, and if that is your opinion, fine.
but keep in mind, they intentionally made those loot boxes to exploit the people that do fall for it.

Yea right if you look at it that way then marketing itself is exploitation of consumers. Look at 'limited time sale','artificial scarcity','advertising only the beneficial side of the product', 'fomo' as you said.

Honestly it is up to the consumers to decide whether they would purchase the products, or else you might as well pitch for the banning of advertising and sales strategy lol, which is not sensible at all.

Honestly, FOMO is a everyday occurrence in the ESO crown store... and that is the only place I have ever encountered it in my 60+ years as a consumer. It is not a widely used practice in marketing by any means, and the places I have heard of it, were truly limited time purchases, like those fancy Air Jordans or whatever, of which they only make a few of, retire the mold and are actual collector items you can trade or sell, not a fake digital item locked to your account and they will re-release over and over and over as a "limited time item", and eventually disappear when the game ends.

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around your comment. You're suggesting that "fear of missing out" is something that occurs only in the ESO Crown Store, that it doesn't occur anywhere else in the consumer marketplaces of the world? So does that mean the phrase "fear of missing out" and its "FOMO" abbreviation were coined entirely in response to the ESO Crown Store?

No, I didn't say that at all. I said it is a fairly rare marketing technique IRL, at least one I rarely encounter.... yet ZOS uses it constantly, to the point of it being their main way of marketing crown store items.

But I see it used all the time in the consumer marketplace. I get emails from companies I've bought from before about new software synths that are on sale for a special introductory price for a limited time, after which they will go up to their normal selling price, so hurry up and buy them at their introductory price while you can! I get coupons in the mail for special prices on food items and combo meals from restaurant chains and fast food restaurants, valid only for the date range printed on the coupons, so come in and eat now! I see new book releases on sale for 30% off-- members save 40%!-- but only for a limited time, after which they go up to their normal cover prices. I can go on, but you get the drift. If all of that isn't trying to appeal to the potential buyer's fear of missing out, then what is it appealing to?

An item being on sale, which you can still buy at regulars price any time you wish, as I mentioned above, is not the same as removing that item from the market completely for an indeterminate amount of time, which in most cases here, is years if not permanently. Fear of missing a sale price vs fear of never being able to obtain the item if you don't buy now, is most definitely not the same thing by a long stretch.

How often in real life are you presented with the choice of buy now or never see it again? Heck, even with the rare sneakers I mentioned in a post above, you can still buy them from eBay or direct through a private seller second hand... even after they are discontinued.

ZOS takes FOMO to a whole new level.

FlopsyPrince

Kwoung wrote: »

ZOS takes FOMO to a whole new level.

I can't get the sparkly wolf (that matches the player skin) which I bought far too many Crown Crates when I had just started to get. Not the brightest move on my part in some ways, but I doubt I will see that again.

(It is stuck on the PS4.)

RicAlmighty

Kwoung wrote: »

No, I didn't say that at all. I said it is a fairly rare marketing technique IRL, at least one I rarely encounter..

Rarely encounter or never encounter? Because previously you said that the Crown Store was the only place you've ever encountered it in 60+ years. I, as well as others as demonstrated here, find that hard to believe.

etchedpixels

Kwoung wrote: »

No, I didn't say that at all. I said it is a fairly rare marketing technique IRL, at least one I rarely encounter.... yet ZOS uses it constantly, to the point of it being their main way of marketing crown store items.

You aren't looking very hard. It's not even really just a marketing technique any more. It's even built into the nature of physical goods production today. Your kid wants that particular plushy toy - well there were 3 containers of them made over 1 day in a factory in China before they switched product, there will be no more. True for models, collectibles and all sorts of other items. Even many higher volume things work this way. You book a production slot, you get a certain amount of stock, that's the product. Even if you wanted to re-order it's 6 months for the next slot.

At least in Europe even food manufacturers do it with "limited edition" twists on standard products.

ESO tries to monetize two standard things

- Want to be first. New chapters are expensive, then discounted, then crowns, then bundled into ESO+. Want to play the next chapter in 4 years time - it'll be cheap, want to play it on launch day then it won't (if it even loads ).

- Collectors. Regular streams of 'once off' items that look exactly like the previous once off item but are a different colour or with new sparkles. They serve no functional in game purpose and they are about as pointless as pokemon but some people like doing it

(and crown crates, but we all know skooma is just the in game metaphor for what crown crates do - just try it. Every time you are doing a quest story and the word 'skooma' is mentioned replace it with 'crown crate'). We need an addon for that we really do

Kiralyn2000

Kwoung wrote: »

ZOS takes FOMO to a whole new level.

Important safety tip - avoid f2p mobile 'gacha' games. They really "take FOMO to a whole new level".
edit: I fiddle with one every now and then, if I heard it has interesting gameplay or just for giggles. The one I'm laughing at now has four different limited-time lootboxes (each with unique 'main prize'), two limited time events (again, unique main prize), and a one-month battlepass (with a $28 paid tier, that includes a unique character costume). Oh, and the introduction of a new character, with special limited-time release $40 & $80 bundles including rare stuff. Yeeeaaaahhhh.


But yeah, thinking about FOMO, and FOMO_adjacent, things I've seen in the real world. People lining up for (concert tickets, 'limited edition' anything, sports tickets, new game releases, etc) hours or days before release. Of course, you see less actual lines of people stretching down the block these days since it's all online now. And sold out within seconds due to scalper-bots, "omg, new stock available!" discord & text alert systems, etc.

Or Black Friday - "open at 5am! Doorbuster uber-deals, limited quantities! Today only!"
Or the latest meme toy kids want for Christmas, scenes of supposed "adults" breaking down store doors, trampling workers, and fighting each other to get the last Furby/Beanie Baby/Cabbage Patch Kid/whatever.

Or... well, you get the idea. Welcome to human nature, and retailers taking advantage of it. Been that way for decades/centuries.

(they've been training us with Random Loot Boxes since we were pre-computer-era kids. I certainly remember, as an under-10 in the 70's, begging my parents for a nickel/dime/quarter to put in the Random Toy Capsule Machine in the entrance to the grocery store. And baseball & movie collector card packs. TOPS Star Wars series 1, or whichever. )

edit: and for Christmas, in our stockings, my 86-y/o mother gave my father and I each a Kinder Egg (collect all the random toys! Download our app to keep track) and a "Super Mario Series 3" Lego blind-bag random collectable kit (she just saw "Lego", has no idea about that Mario thing.)

---

Ooh, ooh! And all the classic free-to-play game systems. Let's think back to video arcades in the 80s:
Custom currency? Sure - just insert some bills into our change machine that'll give you the Arcade Tokens. And if you put in $10 or $20 at a time, we'll give you bonus tokens!
Pay to Win? Oh, you died? Just insert more money for a continue!
Taking advantage of PvP Competitiveness? Hey, everyone! Line up your tokens on that Street Fighter machine, to be the next to challenge >Current Champion>! He'll kick your butt in 30 seconds, but you can always try again with more money!

(and then there's the associated carnival games, like Skee-ball/etc. Pay your money, collect lots of tickets, and then trade in thousands of tickets for... total cheap garbage from the prize counter. Hmm, how many Endeavors/Kombat Koins/Reputation Marks/<insert Overwatch/Destiny/etc currency here> do i need to collect in order to get that silly shiny skin? Isn't it horrible how these evil game devs have invented this brand new system of evil, which didn't exist back in the Innocent Days Of Our Youth? /s)

Kwoung

Well I will stop repeating myself after this. In almost every example each of you gave above, while some are slimy practices, all those things are still obtainable for the right price.... if you are really motivated and want that thing. Is that true of a crown store item? Nope, buy now or forever hold your peace.

SilverBride

Kwoung wrote: »

Well I will stop repeating myself after this. In almost every example each of you gave above, while some are slimy practices, all those things are still obtainable for the right price.... if you are really motivated and want that thing. Is that true of a crown store item? Nope, buy now or forever hold your peace.

The only way to get a product that is no longer being manufactured is to buy it from an individual who got it when it was available, and the price will be way overinflated from the original cost. Even then you may never find one for sale.

Players do not need every single item that ever appears in the crown store just so they won't miss out. I'd wager that most of these limited time items are purchased then forgotten and never even used.

LightningWitch

Pevey wrote: »

These companies have real people working for them. They have to find a way to pay them somehow.

The three common statements I see when people pay for overpriced game content:
1) It's my money, and I'll do what I want
[snip]

2) I only play this game and so instead of buying other games, I spend in this one.
Fair enough, if and only if your game budget hasn't been surpassed spending $100s on gambling. I do not get the impression this is the case, though.

3) I'm supporting the company/devs.
No, you're not. [snip]

The reality is most people don't know how games are made, so they don't understand the relationship between the publisher and the studio.

Let's correct this right now.

First, understand no game can make it to a store without a publisher. Sony, Microsoft, Steam, Epic, and many more will not work directly with game studios. Publishers only. Publishers own the accounts receivable where payment is sent. Studios never see a dime from direct game sales.

Second, studios are contract work. It doesn't matter if the publisher owns the studio or not, it's contract work. A publisher will pay for the content using a budgeted amount, and contracts will distribute any additional revenue per agreement(s) between publisher and studios. Every contract is different and all are under NDA.

In most cases, contracts will include stipends based on sales. These stipends, paid to the studio, will then "trickle down" to employees, usually in the form of a bonus. This is not always the case.

By the time players receive the game/dlc, it has already been paid for. Once released, the return on investment starts, and publishers will get the lion's share of the profit. After all, they are the primary investor.

For example, EA is a publicly traded company and its revenue is based on profit shares of investors. You can easily invest in EA if you want to buy stock as well. However, because stock holders come first, any and all dividends are paid out to them first. Then comes publisher salaries. Finally, studio stipends (if contracted).

To reiterate: studios do *not* get paid directly from game sales.

This means every single purchase done via ESO's stores is now going directly to Zenimax, which is still the publisher for the game. Although Microsoft does own the company, it is unknown if they will take over the publisher responsibility.

As the new owner, Microsoft is entitled to the profits generated from all sales, store or game.

[snip]

I have no problem with subscriptions, which should be required of all players to receive the necessary revenue to keep the game working and new content flowing.

[snip]

I've had chats with people who have spent more money on this game than I have since I've been introduced to gaming with the Atari 2600.

I'm in a guild where the guildmaster has bought 3 large homes and outfitted them with the attunable stations that would be *physically* impossible to get within the 2 years or so they've been playing. They bought them from the Crown store.

[snip]

I have purchased from the Crown store because the Crowns I receive allow me to do so. It's part of the subscription.

However, I have over 72K crowns sitting in my account because there is nothing to buy.

[snip]

Stick to the sub. That's the only way each and every single one of you need to do to support the game.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

merpins

SilverBride wrote: »

It is not predatory to offer players convenience.

Someone may not want to find all the skyshards on all of their alts again, for example. This doesn't mean they are super lazy, but what if they were? What does it matter what their reason is for buying skyshards? ZoS isn't going to say you can buy skyshards for convenience but not if you are super lazy.

Nor are they going to ask if a player is new and if they did their research into how the crown system works before making a purchase.

Caveat Emptor.

Y'know, that's why I stated the first thing? When I said keep the stuff in the shop, but give a warning when you try to buy it that tells you where the free version is and how much it costs based on your level? Yes, offer the services. But hiding the knowledge of how to get it done for free behind menus, and not telling players that it's available in the crown store is predatory towards newer players and younger players who may not know any better. Let lazy players be lazy, but let ignorant players have a choice. You might say that being ignorant isn't their problem, but a good developer would make it their problem and be transparent without claiming that "it's been there from the beginning, not my fault they didn't know," that's an excuse. I agree, it's not predatory to offer a convenience. But it is predatory to not divulge information in a transparent way.

merpins

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The Endeavor system seems to do some of this.

I am not sure how anyone can buy some of the things there. I though I have done them since they started (with only a few missed ones) but can't afford the more expensive items.

Ironically I will probably never buy something with them though since they take so long to earn and I have this idea that hangs in my head "what if I need it later" in so many areas.

I would highly recommend tweaking the loot box system to give more rewards in a sustainable (from their view) way. Let people gamble with them, but don't make it so rare as it is now for a single "good" item. How many skins, emotes and useless mats do I need?

Y'know that's why I suggested to make the boxes something you can earn in-game without using real money. The Endeavor system kinda does what I'm talking about, as I mentioned, but it doesn't do it well. On purpose, to incentivize people to buy the boxes that you will get one good thing out of in the first couple boxes to make you think it's a good deal so you spend a lot of money to try and get it again but you don't cause the odds are low. It's a gambling tactic to let you have a small-medium win to get you hooked so you keep gambling, and the endeavor system is like how casinos give you free drinks if you're playing in the casino. It's not the same thing as making loot boxes only obtainable in-game without spending money, which would be the morally right thing to do.

Zama666

Must my thotz.

• I like the game and am happy to pay for ESO+ - this is my second year doing so. (first started playing when ESO came out)
• Craft bag is awesome for a hoarder like myself. Value.
• it is within my budget.
• For those who want to pay to get ahead - fill yer boots!
• I want ZOS to come out with good stuff - so feel my money is well spent for the enjoyment I get.
• When the price/enjoyment ration changes, I will reconsider.
• I believe giving all the content creators for ZOS a fair wage leads to better gaming.

Tanks!

Z

SilverBride

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

...keep the stuff in the shop, but give a warning when you try to buy it that tells you where the free version is and how much it costs based on your level? Yes, offer the services. But hiding the knowledge of how to get it done for free behind menus, and not telling players that it's available in the crown store is predatory towards newer players and younger players who may not know any better.

This is not predatory. Do you think Fancy Department Store is going to put a disclaimer by their advertised products saying "You can get this same exact product for half the cost at Discount Department Store." ?

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Let lazy players be lazy, but let ignorant players have a choice.

Ignorance is curable. All you need to do is educate yourself.

It is the player's responsibility to know what they are purchasing before they spend their money. They can ask around in game and Google the item they want to find out if there is another way to get the product. If they don't perform their due diligence and end up paying more than they needed to, that is on them.

SeaGtGruff

Kwoung wrote: »

Well I will stop repeating myself after this. In almost every example each of you gave above, while some are slimy practices, all those things are still obtainable for the right price.... if you are really motivated and want that thing. Is that true of a crown store item? Nope, buy now or forever hold your peace.

But limited-time Crown Store items do come back. I don't know whether every single one has-- or eventually will-- come back, but a lot of them have. So it's inaccurate to say "a" Crown Store item because used in that context to refer to some unspecified Crown Store item it implies "any" Crown Store item, which is not true-- although for all I know "some" might be accurate.

For example, most limited-time Crown-Store-exclusive player houses eventually become available again for limited times. In some cases that might not have happened yet, but the fact that it's happened with most of the others strongly suggests that the ones which haven't come back yet are likely to do so at some point.

Certain novelty items might be once-and-never-again items. For instance, I think the stick horse that came out has never come back in its original form-- that when it has come back, it's been a similar-but-different stick horse. But I didn't buy it in any of its incarnations, so I'm not certain about whether each one has been a "never again" offering.

I think most limited-time Crown Gems pets and mounts have returned, when the types of crates they were in have returned. But I've never bought any crates, and have only bought such pets and mounts with Crown Gems I got from free crates by converting items to Crown Gems, or with Seals of Endeavor.

merpins

SilverBride wrote: »

This is not predatory. Do you think Fancy Department Store is going to put a disclaimer by their advertised products saying "You can get this same exact product for half the cost at Discount Department Store." ?

That's not an example since the department store in this example doesn't own the discount department store. An example would be like saying how McDonalds sells a 10 piece nuggets at 6 dollars but a 6 piece at 2.50, it's cheaper and you get more if you just buy two 6 pieces. This is a fictional example. But even with this example, both things are available to see, side by side, on the same menu. So McDonalds would be transparent. That's all I'm asking for. Transparency. [snip]

SilverBride wrote: »

Ignorance is curable. All you need to do is educate yourself.
It is the player's responsibility to know what they are purchasing before they spend their money. They can ask around in game and Google the item they want to find out if there is another way to get the product. If they don't perform their due diligence and end up paying more than they needed to, that is on them.

[snip] But adding a dialogue box that tells players this information would be seen as a good move by the playerbase overall. The only one who suffers from this is the company's bottom line, which means CEOs and shareholders get dinged a couple bucks over the year. It wouldn't be the end of the world. [snip]

[Edited for bashing]

RicAlmighty

Kwoung wrote: »

Well I will stop repeating myself after this. In almost every example each of you gave above, while some are slimy practices, all those things are still obtainable for the right price.... if you are really motivated and want that thing. Is that true of a crown store item? Nope, buy now or forever hold your peace.

Just so I understand, you are morally ok with scalping (aftermarket sales at "the right price", but you are morally opposed to limited time digital cosmetics? That seems like an awfully strange line to draw in my opinion.

Elvenheart

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

ZOS takes FOMO to a whole new level.

Important safety tip - avoid f2p mobile 'gacha' games. They really "take FOMO to a whole new level".
edit: I fiddle with one every now and then, if I heard it has interesting gameplay or just for giggles. The one I'm laughing at now has four different limited-time lootboxes (each with unique 'main prize'), two limited time events (again, unique main prize), and a one-month battlepass (with a $28 paid tier, that includes a unique character costume). Oh, and the introduction of a new character, with special limited-time release $40 & $80 bundles including rare stuff. Yeeeaaaahhhh.


But yeah, thinking about FOMO, and FOMO_adjacent, things I've seen in the real world. People lining up for (concert tickets, 'limited edition' anything, sports tickets, new game releases, etc) hours or days before release. Of course, you see less actual lines of people stretching down the block these days since it's all online now. And sold out within seconds due to scalper-bots, "omg, new stock available!" discord & text alert systems, etc.

Or Black Friday - "open at 5am! Doorbuster uber-deals, limited quantities! Today only!"
Or the latest meme toy kids want for Christmas, scenes of supposed "adults" breaking down store doors, trampling workers, and fighting each other to get the last Furby/Beanie Baby/Cabbage Patch Kid/whatever.

Or... well, you get the idea. Welcome to human nature, and retailers taking advantage of it. Been that way for decades/centuries.

(they've been training us with Random Loot Boxes since we were pre-computer-era kids. I certainly remember, as an under-10 in the 70's, begging my parents for a nickel/dime/quarter to put in the Random Toy Capsule Machine in the entrance to the grocery store. And baseball & movie collector card packs. TOPS Star Wars series 1, or whichever. )

edit: and for Christmas, in our stockings, my 86-y/o mother gave my father and I each a Kinder Egg (collect all the random toys! Download our app to keep track) and a "Super Mario Series 3" Lego blind-bag random collectable kit (she just saw "Lego", has no idea about that Mario thing.)

---

Ooh, ooh! And all the classic free-to-play game systems. Let's think back to video arcades in the 80s:
Custom currency? Sure - just insert some bills into our change machine that'll give you the Arcade Tokens. And if you put in $10 or $20 at a time, we'll give you bonus tokens!
Pay to Win? Oh, you died? Just insert more money for a continue!
Taking advantage of PvP Competitiveness? Hey, everyone! Line up your tokens on that Street Fighter machine, to be the next to challenge >Current Champion>! He'll kick your butt in 30 seconds, but you can always try again with more money!

(and then there's the associated carnival games, like Skee-ball/etc. Pay your money, collect lots of tickets, and then trade in thousands of tickets for... total cheap garbage from the prize counter. Hmm, how many Endeavors/Kombat Koins/Reputation Marks/<insert Overwatch/Destiny/etc currency here> do i need to collect in order to get that silly shiny skin? Isn't it horrible how these evil game devs have invented this brand new system of evil, which didn't exist back in the Innocent Days Of Our Youth? /s)

Oh, the memories! It’s all coming back to me now, there were moments of gold and there were flashes of light. There were things we’d never do again but then they always seemed right. 🙂

Kwoung

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Well I will stop repeating myself after this. In almost every example each of you gave above, while some are slimy practices, all those things are still obtainable for the right price.... if you are really motivated and want that thing. Is that true of a crown store item? Nope, buy now or forever hold your peace.

Just so I understand, you are morally ok with scalping (aftermarket sales at "the right price", but you are morally opposed to limited time digital cosmetics? That seems like an awfully strange line to draw in my opinion.

It is not a strange place to draw the line actually and not a moral implication. I am not gonna judge the guy who I want to buy that 69 Camaro SS convertible from when I am ready for it, even though it will cost over 20x what it went for new. I am also not judging scalpers, or collectors, or flippers for that matter. I simply stated that if I really want an item, there is almost always a way to get it. This is not true in the crown store, you can offer ZOS 10x the normal price and they still won't sell you an item that isn't currently available, nor will they tell you when it will be available again. I also cannot buy that item from someone who owns it and doesn't want it... at any price. I know, I tried for over a year with them.

ZOS owns both the production and distribution of these items, they are not available through any other means than their store, when they choose to make it available and they are not transferable. When they decide to discontinue it or never put it up for sale again, it matters not how cool you think that thing is, how much over retail you are willing to pay, or how much it would enhance your enjoyment of the game... you simply can't have it. Nor is there a way to earn that or any item even a remotely close facsimile of that item in game.

Honestly in my mind, if once a year, Jubilee comes to mind, they put ALL Crown Items ever offered in the store up for a couple weeks, that would rock. New players that weren't around, people like me who go on vacation, and people who maybe just couldn't afford it at the time, could all be made happy and buy the things they want to enhance their gameplay. But, such is not the case, if you miss an item during it's "limited release", you don't know when or if even ever you may be able to get it. That is the epitome of FOMO IMHO.

PrimusTiberius

my .02, Crown store is all cosmetic, I couldn't care less..... can't afford it, don't get it, think its too much, don't get it.

on a side note, we all see lots of people complaining about the high cost of crown store items but no one has a problem charging high gold prices for their merchant items, funny how that works...haha

I wish there were more in game achievements that you could show off (housing trophies)...now that's something to work (grind) for.

Cheers,

ive_wonder

Crown store has a few big issues in my opinion, which i described in another topic, but lemme repeat myself:
1. FOMO, aka limited availibility items.
I'm pretty sure it's not worth it and ZOS is shooting themself in the foot with this, if all items were available at all times they would make much more in a long run. (HOUSES the worst offender)
2. Lootboxes.
World is moving on from that monetization model, also it's linked to gambling, so i think it's time to move on.
And game can sustain itself without those just fine, Fortnite doesn't have lootboxes for example.
3. Unnecessary items.
Potions, respec scrolls, food, mount levelling system - i think no one will miss those.
P.S.
Ceterum autem censeo
mirum arca esse delendam

AuraStorm43

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

my .02, Crown store is all cosmetic, I couldn't care less..... can't afford it, don't get it, think its too much, don't get it.

on a side note, we all see lots of people complaining about the high cost of crown store items but no one has a problem charging high gold prices for their merchant items, funny how that works...haha

I wish there were more in game achievements that you could show off (housing trophies)...now that's something to work (grind) for.

Cheers,

Its not all cosmetic there’s quite a few non cosmetic items on there, some of which take advantage of new players

Elsonso

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Its not all cosmetic there’s quite a few non cosmetic items on there, some of which take advantage of new players

I think that spreading the word about that to new players is part of the responsibility of the community. As was noted elsewhere, ZOS marketing is about marketing what they sell, not about marketing options to avoid buying what they are selling. It would be nice if ZOS marketing of Crown items did not make it sound like their stuff is the only game in town, but I don't generally consider this to be common for someone writing marketing material.

Outrage was not productive, but making sure that new player guides, comments, retweets, etc, mention alternatives will at least help.