Opinion: The Revealed Crown Gems for Radiants Amounts Are Fair

furiouslog

Looking over the historical drop rates, it seems like there is one radiant that is lower than the other two. It might actually be probability-scaled like the pricing, but because the samples are not large enough to detect the difference as a matter of statistical significance, it's uncertain. I think that we can safely assume that the table drop rate pretty much matches the proportion of RA drops based on the pricing.

If one were so inclined, one could also build a monte carlo simulation with the crown rates inclusive of gem deconstruction rules to figure out if the gem acquisition rate matches the pricing. I'm not going to spend the time as much as I love that sort of thing, because it does not affect me that much. I have bought crates now and then by way of supporting the game and to have gambling fun, but never enough to acquire enough gems to get one of those mounts. It's basically the ESO equivalent of a luxurious Tiffany's counter for the gem whales in the game who are willing to invest greatly in games of chance, so they have someplace to spend their stockpiles and feel good about it. Those of us who are casual gamblers and other such mere mortals have no business even looking in the store window.

Wolfpaw

These clown mounts make it really easy to choose targets in Cyrodiil. I will travel the map to hunt/camp players with these type of mounts.

Lady_Galadhiel

I won't understand why such a huge jumps between 1200 to1600 and then all the way to 2500 gems for one mount.
I mean,after all it's just a reskin with a few more effects and blinky animations compared to the normal apex mounts from the same crates.

NettleCarrier

In my small opinion I'm just happy that this is even a thing to begin with. Sure I'd love if they did away with the crate nonsense but at least now if I *MUST HAVE* a certain radiant there is a stopping point in sight. I'm sitting on about 3k gems right now - yes mostly due to poor decisions but this crate season took me by surprise as Ayleid is my favorite theme. Any other time and I'd feel the need to continuously gamble but at least now I know I can take the "out" at any time and purchase what I'm chasing. I'll probably do 15 crates and call it a day compared to how it could have been...

ClawOfTheTwoMoons

There's nothing "fair" when it comes to gambling.

Mizael

2500 is a fair price? LoL
a fair price would be max 1000 gems not more.

katorga

This is why countries are moving to outlaw this sort of thing.

Jeffrey530

Starlock wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Fair?? LMAO. You spend money to get crowns, then spend crowns to gamble on crates, get a lot of useless stuff, and turn into yet another form of currency, gems (by now most people have lost track of how much real money is involved, which is of course exactly what ZOS wants). Then you collect these gems to save up (by gambling on more crates) to get the one “my precious” digital item that you weren’t lucky enough to get out of one of those many useless crates you bought.

Why anybody indulges in the silly and wasteful practice of playing the Game of Crates is beyond me. Unless you’re rich, winter is coming for your bank account.

Because addiction, right? It's real thing and it hurts those who suffer from it. I don't have a problem with gambling addiction myself, but I know people who do. For them, it's not a matter of them "indulging" it; they want to quit, but it's not that simple. Addiction never is, regardless of the form it takes. It used to be that gambling addicts could use a hobby like video games as an escape from the casino to help manage their addiction. But certain groups in the video games industry decided to bring the casino to living rooms over the past decade. This has done a lot of harm to customers and these groups have profited immensely. Worse, this gambling is largely unregulated and the groups doing this by and large actively resist much needed regulation.

Charing obscene amounts of money (gems) for radiant apex mounts is not a solution to the problem of unregulated gambling in video games. It's a marginal improvement for some, a dangerous hook for others. Just a few more spins and you'll have enough gems for that mount. Or maybe just a few more spins and you'll be the lucky one. Just a few more spins...

I can point victims of gambling addiction towards some places for help. I wish I could do the same for the video game industry so they knock it off with this crap.

To be honest I don't understand the logic here.

Because some people have gambling addiction, therefore gambling should not be in a video game?

What about people with sugary food addiction then, should sugary food be banned in supermarkets because of that? That's arguably worse than gambling addiction, it literally kills people and put a heavier burden on any healthcare system.

It is really down to the person to have 'self control' or realising they need help with any sort of addiction.

While I disagree with your argument, I'd also prefer a game without crates.

etchedpixels

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Because some people have gambling addiction, therefore gambling should not be in a video game?

What about people with sugary food addiction then, should sugary food be banned in supermarkets because of that? That's arguably worse than gambling addiction, it literally kills people and put a heavier burden on any healthcare system.

It is really down to the person to have 'self control' or realising they need help with any sort of addiction.

While I disagree with your argument, I'd also prefer a game without crates.

Self control doesn't work for some people. That's pretty much the *definition* of an addiction as opposed to merely liking something.

There are taxes on sugary food and rules about advertising them in many countries. Gambling addictions also kill people and put a burden on both the healthcare and justice system.

If they want to sell thousand dollar vanity mounts then just sell thousand dollar vanity mounts and be done with it.

Jeffrey530

etchedpixels wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Because some people have gambling addiction, therefore gambling should not be in a video game?

What about people with sugary food addiction then, should sugary food be banned in supermarkets because of that? That's arguably worse than gambling addiction, it literally kills people and put a heavier burden on any healthcare system.

It is really down to the person to have 'self control' or realising they need help with any sort of addiction.

While I disagree with your argument, I'd also prefer a game without crates.

Self control doesn't work for some people. That's pretty much the *definition* of an addiction as opposed to merely liking something.

There are taxes on sugary food and rules about advertising them in many countries. Gambling addictions also kill people and put a burden on both the healthcare and justice system.

If they want to sell thousand dollar vanity mounts then just sell thousand dollar vanity mounts and be done with it.

Yes you pretty much agree with me lol with your example, thats why we need better control and regulations on loot crates, not banning them, just like how it is with sugary food. Imagine banning sugary food in an entire country because someone is addicted in them lol .

UntilValhalla13

There's a sucker born every minute.

xaraan

I'm sure the players that have opened thousands of crates getting past radiants and sitting on thousands of unspent crown gems will be fine with the pricing.

Personally, I think they were a tad high, but not as bad as I thought. But I don't think they should cost more for different versions, they should all have been the 1200 imo.


Edit: My biggest issue to date though is the value we get for cashing in items. The fraction of worth an item is for cashing it in is a bit of an insult. And we should be able to cash anything we want in. If we got an apex mount and didn't want whatever it is: camel or something, we should be able to cash it out for a reasonable gem value.

I'm not a fan of spending real money to buy virtual currency in the first place, then using virtual currency to gamble and get a second virtual currency from those purchases. Businesses wouldn't do it if it wasn't a predatory behavior that made them more than selling things straight up. I'd love to see actual legal work done to ban/regulate virtual currency, gambling crates, etc. in gaming. Probably won't happen anytime soon, but I'd appreciate any behavior by companies to be a bit less scummy with the way they do that type of business.

Offering these mounts at least for gems was a nice first step.

spartaxoxo

A thousand dollars is an absolutely absurd and dookie amount of money expected for a mount. And someone trying to compare their fake money to real money does nothing to dissuade from that opinion. Those are clown prices.

drkfrontiers

Fortunately I have never seen an Apex mount that's been attractive to me.

They all look like Wedding cake or Xmas decorations or from a Tron anime.

And I have like 25 mounts to choose from already..

Hymzir

No they are not. Not that they are unfair either, strictly speaking that is. A reasonable case could be made for them being ridiculous, but that would require certain value based assumption. After all, If you have the money, then who am I to say how to waste it? I mean, I spend hundreds and hundreds of bucks on decent quality repro medieval swords, 'cause I can and want to, not because I need to or have a real use for any of them. And I do have several of them already. To each their own.

Though I suppose you could argue that tangible things retain their value. In 10 years, when this game is long gone and buried under newer and shinier things, my sword collection is still there, and will continue to entertain me just as it has always done. And when I am long gone and buried, then my relatives can divvy up my sword collection between them, or sell it off for some extra cash. The same can't be said about digital crud like mounts with extra particle effects attached.

Then again, I do also enjoy traveling, and have spent quite a lot (though not in recent times for some odd reason...) to visit far flung places to just soak up the local atmosphere. Doing so does give me temporal joy and enjoyment, and I suppose I will always carry the memories of said "fun times" to the grave. Are they any more tangible than playing a game with a particularly cool mount? I would not make such claims myself. After all, it's not as if my relatives will inherit any of my memories from my travels, and all the knickknacks and weird crud I brought back as souvenirs wont mean a lot to them eitehr, nor is there any real money to be made in trying sell them. So... if fancy bling mounts makes your day, then go for it. Who cares.

As such, fair and unfair is always a matter of personal values. The actual prices however, are always what the party trying to sell them thinks the market will bear. However, and this is a big however, the market in question is an artificial one. It is one that is set up by the party offering the goods, it is regulated by the party that set it up, and it is totally controlled by the party trying to sell you stuff on it. There is no competition involved.

So the prices for these bits of bling are not fair or unfair, what they are is artificial. The cost to make them is only marginally greater than that of any other digital goods. There are no material costs and the labor is pretty much the same, and there are nor real costs involving shipping, handling and storage. The prices are completely artificial and are solely based on calculations of what ZOS thinks it can get away with.

I have no real issue in paying for virtual goods, they offer me no less tangible enjoyment than say.. Having seen the Meoto Iwa rock pair with my own eyes down at Futamiokitama Shrine near Ise. I do, personally at least, think that it was a better option for wasting money on, rather than on some blingy mount in ESO. I wont hold it against you if you disagree. It all depends on our own personal values.

I do however have an issue when such goods are not offered in good faith. When the machinations behind the pricing is based on the thought process of "We can make more money by selling these things to 10 people who are willing to pay almost anything for them, than selling them to 1000 people who are willing to pay a sensible amount for them". When the whole market, and "economy" in which those goods are offered, is based on exclusivity, artificial rarity, and limited time offers only. When every facet of the system is designed to put as much pressure on those few who are willing to pay anything and everything they can just to get the blingiest bling ever (at least until the next "season" of artificial crap trudges along few months later.) When the whole system is designed to just rake in as much money with no thought given to the amount of psychological and economic ham done to others. That I have an issue with.

And trying to hide behind the usual excuses of "it's optional, it's cosmetics only" is purposefully dishonest and unethical. They know just as well as all of us, that cosmetics and the ability to individualize your character, and to express you own creativity via cosmetics options, is a big part of the game for a large segment of the player base. It's not optional when cosmetic customization is the end goal of your gaming in the first place.

Dangling the latest and prettiest bit of shiny bling in front of such players and saying "It's only like what, 1000 bucks in gems! Or you could get lucky and get it via gambling! Why not buys some crates, who knows you might get lucky!!! And if not.. Well at least you'll get couple of gems out if it and are that much closer to the hippity hip hippeist hip horse evaRRRRR!!!! Just buy some more crates!!!! And maybe you too can be extra shiny and blingy one day, if you SPEND ENOUGH ON IT!!!" Doing that is not only unethical, it is downright callous and cruel.

So.. to sum it up, the prices on these "exclusive, super-duper rare, limited availability" ultra bling mounts are not fair, what they are is exploitative.

Oh well, whatever... The new mounts are cool and all, and would not say no to them especially the horse - have a character it would suit rather well), but I already have my flaming camel (and storm kitty)so am good. I mean I hated that camel at first, wanted the cat and would've been fine with the horse or the dog, but these days... I mean no one else seems to run around on a flaming camel, so at least it's got that going for it.

Sometimes I wonder how it feels to work on these things. I mean it's not like the people who make these assets, or set it up in game, set up the monetization behind it. It's the bean counters and corpos making their "executive decisions" to get all the moneys in the world who are to blame. The people who work on them, and the people who deal with these forums, are the one's left to polish the turd so to say. They are the ones who have to try and make it sound something other than greed. I feel for them. Sometimes at least.

Sigh... Back when I was young, and me and my friends were talking about greed and how much money is enough, I always though the right answer to that was "All of it.", but now as I am older and wiser I realize that the answer to "How much is enough?" has always been "More". Having all of it is not enough, you'll always need to have more.

Sigh...

Zulera301

The only thing unfair about it is the gambling aspect. If we could buy the gems straight up the way we can with crowns, I would have much less of an issue.

Granted, I have no interest in an 86th reskin anyways when my Indrik is functionally the same, but if people really want it, they should at least get to know the price.

Nomadic_Atmoran

I average somewhere around 100 crown gems whenever I decide to buy a 15 pack. Even if Im getting increased gems on more packs because of duplicates Im guessing Id still have to spend 4-500 dollars to obtain the rarest mount in the Crown Crates. And Im probably low balling it because of the random nature of gambling boxes.

500 dollars for a glowy reskin.

method__01

i'd rather have my nails pulled out 1 by 1 than pay 2,500 crown gems

scorpius2k1

Player Grind:
Minimal rewards and incentivization for gameplay (earnable content). New cp system is a good example...while the combat team did a great job, for the player it's just mindless long-term grinding just to get back where we were previously, why?

Company Grind:
Design intentionally bad game systems with monetary-only solutions disguised as convenient or "not required/optional" features, but in reality, they are for a fully enjoyable game experience which many cave into buying. Inventory, crates, gems, skill lines, limited time offers, etc. Turn players into payers.

My issue isn't with the monetization, it's the fact that there is no balance in these areas of the game. The scale is far-tipped only one way and it seems to be tilting further. Imagine if there was a good outcome for either player/company in it's current state in the longrun. There isn't.
.

Canned_Apples

Lol is all I can say

Subfocus

If people will buy it, it's fair, since it's cosmetic. It's stupid to a lot of people, but some people need to feel special or have an urge to collect everything.

I've seen the downfall of a few MMOs, they jack up prices or cut chances on things and the fact there's no substantial gold sink in here means that's almost useless, too.

Thevampirenight

I suspect there is two reasons for this change, the new laws that are being passed that are restricting these types of crates. The pricing I suspect is because there is bound to be many people that have more then 3000 crown gems. I think the goal is to get people to spend, their crown gems. So they can buy more crates, I'm not surprised by the cost for them being the way it is. Either way people will be able to buy everything now. I also believe they are going to make this change to the other crown crate mounts as well at some point.

Czeri

LOL was my reaction at seeing the prices too.

I suppose I kinda get it - they needed to keep the apex mounts rare, so the price had to be insane, but the unintended consequence is that seeing anyone on one of these mounts will make me think they're a complete sucker. And yes, technically it's still possible to get the mount by buying a single crown crate; and sure, some people used to spend insane amounts trying to game the RNG before. Still, though...

Matchimus

No 100 gem senche.

barney2525

Wow, was I wrong.

Well, If I don't get one in RNG, I'm not getting one. Not with the cheapest one being 1200 gems.

Not impressed with the explosion summoning the gold one and the blue wolf either.

I like the blue horse tho

B0SSzombie

barney2525 wrote: »

Wow, was I wrong.

Well, If I don't get one in RNG, I'm not getting one. Not with the cheapest one being 1200 gems.

Not impressed with the explosion summoning the gold one and the blue wolf either.

I like the blue horse tho

I have the same mentality.

I got the Culanda Senche out of a Crate, but I would NEVER outright buy anything that expensive.

What would it take to get 2,500 gems? Around $400 worth of crates, right?

KalyanLazair

The horse is neat. I'm still not going to gamble, though. Being part of the Tight Fist Brotherhood does have some advantages. I think strong and hard when I'm spending coin, and with over 40 mounts and I don't even know how many pets, I don't care tossing money at ZoS for some reskins, but I want to know I'm getting what I payed for. I don't like gambling, I've got enough dealing with the RNG in game. Still hunting Armiger motifs.

Still, I do think this might actually be helpful for people with gambling addictions, as there is a guarantee they'll be able to get the super rare mount by spending gems.

I do feel however that those of us who don't gamble have been pushed to the side. There are very few new mounts, and most don't look all that good anyways. We've had the same mounts for ages, with a new one being added for a time, like the new deer (which I bought with the dungeon because I think it's really nice). I don't remember the last time I actually bought a mount, and I bought the full collection of the halloween mounts before the crates were introduced, just because I thought they looked great.

Iccotak

INe_Saninus wrote: »

...I think they missed the mark with this pricing.

Instead of being excited that I could acquire an apex of my choosing, I pondered whether I would be embarrassed riding around town.

Before, a person could have just got lucky or they could have spent a lot of money.
...and while that's still true, if I see that senche out in the wild I'm going to think "sucker".

Full disclosure: I might still get it.
...but I don't know.
Going to have to think about that one for a while.
You want your mount to be flashy and unique.
....but do I want my mount to say I make bad decisions?!

There’s definitely a difference between a mount that’s earned from gameplay - vs - one that is bought for an obscene amount of money

ThorianB

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

I know exactly what it is. It's just a scummy practice. People complain about the pricing in other games. For example, £50 for 1 tank, or £70 for an inane plane, but at least the buyer knows exactly what is required. We bought an rpg, not a gambling simulator that pays out fresh air.

Like i said, I have no issue with what they price stuff at. I have an issue with how they implement some of their pricing. As things stand, here in the UK that 2500 gem mount could cost you between £3.99 or £1000. That's **** up.

People who complain about such things do so because they want one and either can't or don't want to pay the price for it or they don't want to acquire it the way it was meant to be acquired. So they villainize it so that they can try to recruit support to get it changed to conditions THEY want. Now THAT is a scummy practice. The price is what it is, either pay it or move on, IMO.

Its ridiculous people are still complaining about this. You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money.

Hotdog_23

Posted this in another forum about this

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565814/how-much-will-the-new-radiant-apex-mounts-cost-in-gems#latest

Seems like a good place for it also:

These Are grossly overpriced, and ZOS should be ashamed of themselves for even considering these prices.

It’s around $35 us dollars to buy 15 crates pack, when buying the 21000 gems at $150 dollars. Say you get 10 gems per crate which is generous I believe. You get 150 gems per 15 crate pack. Let’s up this to 200 gems per crate just to be overly fair. You need 6 pack to get 1200 gems or $210 for the wolf or $280 at 150 gems per 15 crate pack.

In short,
Wolf is $210 - $280 US dollars or $245 on average.
Horse is $280 - $373 US dollars or $327 on average.
Cat is $437 - $583 US dollars or $510 on average.

“He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have.” ― Socrates

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺