Overland Content Feedback Thread

Ermiq

Debuff food is certainly not a solution. Simply because it's essentially the same thing as taking off all your armor and using a white/green weapon, which gives exactly the same results: you take more damage incoming and you deal less damage to the enemies. Do you see anyone doing this right now? No. Because to play like this you need to have that mood for playing stupid and showing off your protest against the current overland state, not because you find it more difficult and fun.
PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone. Just like I said earlier in the thread, the current overland is a game where you don't ever need to learn how to play, all the base and essential game mechanics are completely ignored by new players and the game never tell them they should pay some attention to that stuff. Basically, it is the reason why we have so huge gaps between the new and casual players and the others.
Of course it looks terrifying to new and casual players when people like me suggest such things, but the truth is it's not THAT scary as they might think. Playing this game as it was designed to be played is not some kind of Dark Souls or anything like that, not even close at all. All that is needed is the basic knowledge and just a little one-time efforts like finally get your gear upgraded to purple quality and use the proper enchants instead of playing "they way you want".

Sylvermynx

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone..

Actually, what you are telling me is that I can just go away and not play this game since you want overland harder for everyone.

Sorry. That's not acceptable to me. I pay my way here with two annual subs, and buying extra crowns over the course of every year. Overland is just fine for me, because it's already hard enough - I'm old, my reflexes suck, and I've never (even 30 years ago) been able to handle "twitch" combat.

[snip] I'm all for optional harder overland for you and those like you. But forcing me to have to play it when I'm perfectly happy the way it is now is a HUGE deal breaker.

Optional. That's how you make things fair.

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

Ermiq wrote: »

Just like I said earlier in the thread, the current overland is a game where you don't ever need to learn how to play, all the base and essential game mechanics are completely ignored by new players and the game never tell them they should pay some attention to that stuff. Basically, it is the reason why we have so huge gaps between the new and casual players and the others.

Tutorial content very rarely teaches people endgame in any game. It's a gradual scale. Overland prepares you for normal dungeons, trials, and arenas. And it's the normal mode of that content that teaches people how to do the vet modes. And being good at the vet modes is how people get good enough to do achievements.

And no the gap comes from desire and in the case of dps, from stuff like light attack weaving. Which was not an intentional mechanic, but instead became a feature because devs liked the reward of skill it brings to the game.

Ermiq wrote: »

Of course it looks terrifying to new and casual players when people like me suggest such things, but the truth is it's not THAT scary as they might think. Playing this game as it was designed to be played is not some kind of Dark Souls or anything like that, not even close at all. All that is needed is the basic knowledge and just a little one-time efforts like finally get your gear upgraded to purple quality and use the proper enchants instead of playing "they way you want".

Playing the way you want is literally the design philosophy behind the game and one of it's advertising slogans.

The customer is always right in matters of taste. People who play tanks and healers don't want to do the harder content. It's not that it's scary it's that they do not enjoy it. And dps that do want to do these things but fail, usually fail because what is required of them is not an intuitive mechanic. It does require dark souls level commitment to hit high dps out put.

You can't force people to enjoy the things you enjoy. They just leave. A forced overland is just not a good idea imo.

Debuff food is certainly not a solution. Simply because it's essentially the same thing as taking off all your armor and using a white/green weapon, which gives exactly the same results: you take more damage incoming and you deal less damage to the enemies.

That depends entirely on the strength and nature of the debuff.

Franchise408

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

How does forcing someone like Sylvermynx to play vet overland make your game experience better?

Sylvermynx

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

How does forcing someone like Sylvermynx to play vet overland make your game experience better?

[snip]

*shrug* If it goes that direction, as I said, I would try it. But considering I still have problems with quest bosses in overland questing, I'm pretty sure I know how that's going to go. At that point, I bid a sad farewell to the game. I've had a lot of fun - but there's a point at which the anguish removes the fun....

[Edited for Baiting]

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

Players come and go all the time. There is no data backing up that any of them are leaving or spending less time in game because they think overland is too easy.

LashanW

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone. Just like I said earlier in the thread, the current overland is a game where you don't ever need to learn how to play, all the base and essential game mechanics are completely ignored by new players and the game never tell them they should pay some attention to that stuff. Basically, it is the reason why we have so huge gaps between the new and casual players and the others.

In theory I'd agree to a certain extent. But in practice I strongly disagree.

Reason is latency. Play the game at 500+ ping and you'll be singing a different song. Some people can't do anything to improve their ping. Perks of ZoS trying to cover the whole world with just 2 servers.

spartaxoxo

Sylvermynx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

How does forcing someone like Sylvermynx to play vet overland make your game experience better?

[snip]

*shrug* If it goes that direction, as I said, I would try it. But considering I still have problems with quest bosses in overland questing, I'm pretty sure I know how that's going to go. At that point, I bid a sad farewell to the game. I've had a lot of fun - but there's a point at which the anguish removes the fun....

[Edited for Baiting]

I have a fully disabled family member in the same boat. And my hand health as well is not what it used to be. When they are feeling fine and I am in the mood, I really enjoy vet content. But if I am not in the mood, I prefer to quest. And then there are days where I simply can't do the harder content regardless of my mood, which is a more recent thing and wasn't true a couple of years ago.

That's why I don't just hate the suggestion because of my tastes, but honestly find the concept to be incredibly accessibility unfriendly for no reason. This game has been around for years, this franchise has been friendly to casual friendly gameplay for a couple decades at this point with optional challenges and mods for those that want it.

I don't see any good reason whatsoever for it to lose that because someone wants to force their idea of fun on others.

You don't see me saying not to make any changes and vet players can just eat it. I have suggested multiple ideas and actively tried to get people to make suggestions I can rally behind. I can't get behind overhauling all the old content into normal/vet for reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum, but I have suggested other ideas. Because I know that the casual mode is not fun for everyone.

There is no good reason to force either difficulty imo. We should have options.

Sylvermynx

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

PS: actually, none of the "optional" solutions proposed here would work for me personally. I strongly believe that it has to be the overall difficulty increase for everyone.

A large portion of the people I know and many in this thread would just quit if that happened. I wouldn't because I enjoy vet content, but I also would probably spend like 2/3rds less time in this game and hundreds of dollars less a year.

And people are leaving now or spending less time in game in its current state.

I don't think I've logged on once this month. I've been spending my time (and money) on other games. With this game's current design, there's little to no motivation for me to continue logging in, or spending money on it.

How does forcing someone like Sylvermynx to play vet overland make your game experience better?

Eh, it doesn't of course. But they think it's fine if they get what they want, and people like me can just take a hike - because they figure there aren't as many of us as there are of them.

*shrug* If it goes that direction, as I said, I would try it. But considering I still have problems with quest bosses in overland questing, I'm pretty sure I know how that's going to go. At that point, I bid a sad farewell to the game. I've had a lot of fun - but there's a point at which the anguish removes the fun....

I have a fully disabled family member in the same boat. And my hand health as well is not what it used to be. When they are feeling fine and I am in the mood, I really enjoy vet content. But if I am not in the mood, I prefer to quest. And then there are days where I simply can't do the harder content regardless of my mood, which is a more recent thing and wasn't true a couple of years ago.

That's why I don't just hate the suggestion because of my tastes, but honestly find the concept to be incredibly accessibility unfriendly for no reason. This game has been around for years, this franchise has been friendly to casual friendly gameplay for a couple decades at this point with optional challenges and mods for those that want it.

I don't see any good reason whatsoever for it to lose that because someone wants to force their idea of fun on others.

You don't see me saying not to make any changes and vet players can just eat it. I have suggested multiple ideas and actively tried to get people to make suggestions I can rally behind. I can't get behind overhauling all the old content into normal/vet for reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum, but I have suggested other ideas. Because I know that the casual mode is not fun for everyone.

There is no good reason to force either difficulty imo. We should have options.

Well said. Thank you.

spartaxoxo

How? I was saying that Vet Overland shouldn't be forced, and you disagreed with me saying that because of the enjoyment you would get out of a vet overland. So I am asking how it being forced instead of optional would make your gameplay better. I used Sylvermynx as an example because she has been very open about the challenges a forced version would present her in her continued enjoyment of the game and why.

If you are going to say we should have a forced vet overland, then I think it is perfectly fair to ask how it being forced instead of optional makes the game better for you.

Psiion

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Kamatsu

1. I see people talking about forcing harder content on everyone, with the thoughts that people will just learn and get better. It doesn't work that way.

ANet tried that with Guild Wars 2 1st expansion "Heart of Thorns" - made the gameplay a lot harder, more group focused, more player-skill reliant, etc. Just as had been asked for by a vocal minority on their forums for years.

The result was a massive loss of players as a huge chunk of the casual playerbase left the game. ANet suffered their biggest ever 6-month loss of revenue after the launch of HoT - a 66-67% loss, something not seen by them previously or since.

So no, forcing harder content in overland on everyone will not make people learn-to-play, or encourage them to play better. They will just leave and go find another game that is easy-to-play and lets them just do what they want without stress, worry, etc.

2. I'm no IT and/or server tech, so no idea about this... I've seen a lot of talk about how splitting the game into separate normal & vet instances will split playerbase 9true), and make it harder for ppl to get help if/when they need it, etc....

What I'm wondering about: Would it be possible to say have the General & Zone chats be the same for both instances? So if you had a normal & Vet instance of a zone, ppl could still talk to everyone on both instances?

And how would they deal with a switching? Could it be done on the fly? Or would it involve having to log off the game, chance setting and then log back in?

I ask these, because if you could have communication in zones be between both instances, and switching between instances happen on the fly and/or easily... wouldn't that solve one of the issues regarding player splitting? While ppl might not see others, they will see the talking/convo's happening, can still request help, etc.

But as I said, I'm no programmer, it tech, or such... so have no clue about these matters.

spartaxoxo

Kamatsu wrote: »

I ask these, because if you could have communication in zones be between both instances, and switching between instances happen on the fly and/or easily... wouldn't that solve one of the issues regarding player splitting? While ppl might not see others, they will see the talking/convo's happening, can still request help, etc.

But as I said, I'm no programmer, it tech, or such... so have no clue about these matters.

You know, that would probably go a long way to making that issue more workable. Good post.

colossalvoids

Isn't it a thing still between instances that we have shared chat? Pretty sure it is as at times you're not zoned with some of the randoms (aka invisible players). It would anyway not satisfy "no vet" peeps just because their idea of fun is to see us around and not in a place we want to be.

Anyway I'd rather shift from vet overland here (that kind of feedback is more suited for discords and in-game because no one would try to shut you down there) to more niche ones like HM quest encounters some of us proposed and agreeing on that one, as some getting too emotional when talks about overland occurs and it's getting just couple of pages of back and forth for no reason.

XomRhoK

Ermiq wrote: »

Debuff food is certainly not a solution. Simply because it's essentially the same thing as taking off all your armor and using a white/green weapon, which gives exactly the same results: you take more damage incoming and you deal less damage to the enemies. Do you see anyone doing this right now? No. Because to play like this you need to have that mood for playing stupid and showing off your protest against the current overland state, not because you find it more difficult and fun.

Firstly, i think debuff food, i mean food is a bad solution, band aid. Again for some people debuff of this food will be too much, for somenot enough, so how many different food ZOS must create? It will be easy and comfortable to use? And it will also take away one option to fine tune your character. Don't know why people continue to mention debuff food, while there is much more comfortable and precise solution like difficulty sliders, same debuff, but hidden and more precise.
Secondly, it's not "essentially the same thing as taking off all your armor and using a white/green weapon", because if you want to do overland you need one set of items and champion points, if you want to do PvP and dungeons you need another set of items and champion points. It's a chore. Also without champion points and appropriate gear you will suffer from bad resource recovery, and will be force to use more heavy attacks which is not fun. Also some skills at champion point system and some sets give player opportunity to create character they want, visual effects of 5 pieces of sets do alot here.

AvalonRanger

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

I hate to sound like a *** when I'm not trying to but markets do cater to the majority and the majority are capable of this content. .

The majority of people in this game do not want higher difficulty. Do not like higher difficulty. And are NOT capable of doing harder content, because they do not want to research anything. The companions are the way they are because that is how they have to be tuned to be just below the average player in dungeons. Those players aren't gonna force themselves to do it. They will just leave. The current state of Overland IS zos catering to the majority.

People who want harder overland or who want to flag for PvP are in the minority.

As Rich said, the numbers don't lie.

I almost agree with you.

The hard mode of ESO content is not actual "joyful" hard mode. Most of it's unreasonable stressful stupid game content.
The ZoS made too many of unreasonable " deviation" which are far from fundamental game rules and average balance.
Each time new DLC shows up, ZoS make new unpredictable "deviation" like crazy balance Vet dungeon or over powered
mythic gear, or changing champion system mechanism so many times. Stop that. Please concentrate building story of
second age of Tamriel.

ESO is one of the series of Elder Scrolls. Without Elder Scrolls theme, ESO is nothing.

AvalonRanger

I know this schematics is too much exaggerated. But. just I wanted to tell my feeling of this game instantly.
Dear ZoS. Please keep hold on green zone. Do not underestimate importance of "A" line.

PS. I love design and animation of new huge caterpillar creature of dead-land.
I want statue of that thing.

tonyblack

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I know this schematics is too much exaggerated. But. just I wanted to tell my feeling of this game instantly.
Dear ZoS. Please keep hold on green zone. Do not underestimate importance of "A" line.

PS. I love design and animation of new huge caterpillar creature of dead-land.
I want statue of that thing.

Funny, but if I have to make a connection between eso and this picture than the difficulty would be way below average. As a brand new player in any game on normal difficulty i tend to die occasionally to big boss, overwhelming wave of mobs or confusing mechanics. In eso none of those things pose a challenge in content balanced for solo player: bosses deal low damage and have extremely low hp, mobs do as much damage as your health recovery restore and you encounter 3 of them at best, all mechanics very obvious if not trivial and forgiving to every mistake. I haven’t die or failed anything quest related (so i have to google a solution for example) back when i was a new player and it’s much worse now. Nothing was learned, memorized or made me exited about my experience. The whole premise of the complaints is that a considerable number of players unsatisfied with such balancing and find it way too easy. If you happy to one-shot those poor 30k hp mobs with 400 dps or 100k hp bosses with 1500 dps, it’s fine but not everyone feels the same.

Sylvermynx

I can't one shot anything but critters....

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

The whole premise of the complaints is that a considerable number of players unsatisfied with such balancing and find it way too easy. If you happy to one-shot those poor 30k hp mobs with 400 dps or 100k hp bosses with 1500 dps, it’s fine but not everyone feels the same.

Of course overland is easy for a vet geared and experienced player. If it wasn't then that would be a problem because such a player should be able to easily take down entry level mobs.

Overland is not end game content, nor should it be.

That being said, I fully support a debuff and optional veteran quest bosses, but I do not support a separate veteran overland for reasons already stated.

Vulkunne

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I know this schematics is too much exaggerated. But. just I wanted to tell my feeling of this game instantly.
Dear ZoS. Please keep hold on green zone. Do not underestimate importance of "A" line.

PS. I love design and animation of new huge caterpillar creature of dead-land.
I want statue of that thing.

All of that is just fine for maybe a player starting a new character.

But difficulty progression drops notable after maybe lvl 30ish and everything starts getting too easy. And for vets there is no end game difficulty to challenge our end game builds. It's like the more you level, the less the difficulty becomes instead of the more you level, the more difficulty levels with you to provide sufficient challenge.

That's why alot of us reach 160, we get nice gear and lose interest in Overland because it doesn't produce a challenge. Its a problem with the game, I've been saying, alot of us have. And ESO is an awesome game, so it makes me wonder are we supposed to just not care about overland after lvl 40? Is that nature's way of telling us just to start running PvP/Dungeons?

Submitted for your Approval the following Scenario. Many players, including yours truly, have leveled a majority of our characters thru gate farming. Ok. So we do this to get to a position where we can use vet gear. Not to mention there's really no point trying to PvP or trying to run PvE Dungeons without reaching vet level. I have seen literally, probably by now thousands of people doing this same thing, same mindset.

For your curve there, it's safe to say many players don't experience Overland significantly, maybe not past their first character, until they reach lvl 60, or 160, whichever and can use vet gear. And then... they go questing. Does anyone else see this? Keeping Overland at like a lvl 30 and below difficulty is hurting players who want to play on a lvl 60 / lvl 160 CP vet level.

It's a problem because that Overland Content is so ridiculously easy, especially by this time, that it's almost just non-applicable. Which its so hard to accept this because the entire point to playing ESO is to get your character ready to experience the game, which I consider Overland Content just as important as PvP or PvE runs.

Again, the Devs should not go in there and make Overland wildly difficult or any more difficult than it already is however the only way to do that safely is to provide an optional instance for vet difficulty. There should and easily could be room for both. Now, if the Devs don't want to do this for reasons, I very respectfully and humbly, would ask someone at some point in time to please answer us back on this if they wish and just tell us why this cannot be done. Note, this is not a demand. I am just asking because maybe they see something we don't but just looking over this entire situation something is missing.

SilverBride

Vulkunne wrote: »

And for vets there is no end game difficulty to challenge our end game builds.

There are plenty challenges in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. That is end game content. Overland is not.

Universally in almost all MMOs there are easy questing zones and end game content in the form of dungeons and trials, or raids. It is a very successful formula because it makes sense. Turning easy questing zones into end game content does not.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

And for vets there is no end game difficulty to challenge our end game builds.

There are plenty challenges in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. That is end game content. Overland is not.

Universally in almost all MMOs there are easy questing zones and end game content in the form of dungeons and trials, or raids. It is a very successful formula because it makes sense. Turning easy questing zones into end game content does not.

That makes me wonder if it's one of those things that got lost in translation between the original concept of the game and One Tam updates as well as a couple years later when they standardized a bunch of things. I would however leave the door open to possible solutions because I've known many people power level after their first character and then start 'playing the game', doing quests to find out that Overland gameplay is very disappointing.

SilverBride

Vulkunne wrote: »

...I've known many people power level after their first character and then start 'playing the game', doing quests to find out that Overland gameplay is very disappointing.

That is their choice if they level their characters before doing any quests. But doing so creates a situation where the quest mobs are now even easier for them than if they had not powerleveled first.

The fact that some players choose alternate paths to leveling and questing does not mean that the game should go through a major change to accommodate their decision.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

...I've known many people power level after their first character and then start 'playing the game', doing quests to find out that Overland gameplay is very disappointing.

That is their choice if they level their characters before doing any quests. But doing so creates a situation where the quest mobs are now even easier for them than if they had not powerleveled first.

The fact that some players choose alternate paths to leveling and questing does not mean that the game should go through a major change to accommodate their decision.

The problem with this argument, to me, is ultimately we all must reach I believe CP 160 and then that's when all players can start wearing standard gear. However as you know, CP goes on to something MUCH higher than that.

The misconception is this, I'm not saying that we grind all the way to max CP. Maybe that's not what you were saying which is fine. What I am saying, is alot of players grind at least their first character to 160 CP (or play the game to that point) and then subsequent characters they just grind to lvl 60 and CP catches them up to whatever their new max is from there. See what I mean? It's not really accommodating a personal decision as much as a lack of planning for a Veteran Standard that they set - CP 160. Meaning CP 160 is the gateway between Norm and Vet.

In short, I think it's safe to conclude there was not or maybe was but is no longer a plan in place for Overland difficulty for Vets. Because when it's this easy to eliminate mobs and bosses which were known as being quite formidable from lore, then the game is not creating a story that fits with the lore behind it. This is what I meant earlier about the issue here being more profound than just being about difficulty itself.

This is why at some point I hope that either thru media or patch notes maybe the Devs would be willing to shed some light on this issue, if they consider this an issue. I can only try to help from the way I see things because for the here and now in ESO I mainly PvP, possibly run PvE when friends are online and that's it. There are still tons of quests I need but gameplay wise they just all kind of seem the same, and are not boring but yet, uninteresting. I do however appreciate the work that went into making them.

SilverBride

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

...I've known many people power level after their first character and then start 'playing the game', doing quests to find out that Overland gameplay is very disappointing.

That is their choice if they level their characters before doing any quests. But doing so creates a situation where the quest mobs are now even easier for them than if they had not powerleveled first.

The fact that some players choose alternate paths to leveling and questing does not mean that the game should go through a major change to accommodate their decision.

The problem with this argument, to me, is ultimately we all must reach I believe CP 160 and then that's when all players can start wearing standard gear. However as you know, CP goes on to something MUCH higher than that.

The misconception is this, I'm not saying that we grind all the way to max CP. Maybe that's not what you were saying which is fine. What I am saying, is alot of players grind at least their first character to 160 CP (or play the game to that point) and then subsequent characters they just grind to lvl 60 and CP catches them up to whatever their new max is from there. See what I mean? It's not really accommodating a personal decision as much as a lack of planning for a Veteran Standard that they set - CP 160. Meaning CP 160 is the gateway between Norm and Vet.

In short, I think it's safe to conclude there was not or maybe was but is no longer a plan in place for Overland difficulty for Vets. Because when it's this easy to eliminate mobs and bosses which were known as being quite formidable from lore, then the game is not creating a story that fits with the lore behind it. This is what I meant earlier about the issue here being more profound than just being about difficulty itself.

This is why at some point I hope that either thru media or patch notes maybe the Devs would be willing to shed some light on this issue, if they consider this an issue. I can only try to help from the way I see things because for the here and now in ESO I mainly PvP, possibly run PvE when friends are online and that's it. There are still tons of quests I need but gameplay wise they just all kind of seem the same, and are not boring but yet, uninteresting. I do however appreciate the work that went into making them.

I get what you are saying about subsequent characters now having all this CP once they hit level 50... but they don't have to apply it, or gear up with the best in slot to continue questing in overland. However I do realize that experience also factors into this and players can't just block out what they've learned.

I am not unsympathetic that some veteran players want more of a challenge in overland, which is why I support measures that I would never use myself, such as an optional debuff and optional veteran story bosses. But there has been a lot of resistance to these suggestions. For some it is a separate veteran overland or nothing, and that is just not feasible for reasons that have already been stated.

For there to be any real chance of anything being done there need to be some proposals presented that would be cost effective and not negatively impact other players or the game. And there needs to be enough players who would utilize it to make it worthwhile.

spartaxoxo

Vulkunne wrote: »

There should and easily could be room for both. Now, if the Devs don't want to do this for reasons, I very respectfully and humbly, would ask someone at some point in time to please answer us back on this if they wish and just tell us why this cannot be done. Note, this is not a demand. I am just asking because maybe they see something we don't but just looking over this entire situation something is missing.

They have actually responded to this. This thread is really long, so I am not sure if you saw their response. They haven't made a new response to this thread but they have addressed this topic before. Click the >> next to "Spartaxoxo wrote" for easier viewing.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Therefore this idea is intended to make questing more interesting while still working within the developers self-stated reasons as to why we can't have a vet overland "too much work" (debuffs require little dev effort) and fractured playerbase (debuffs don't require splitting players up).

If you don't care about what the devs stated in the past they aren't going to do, that's fine. But some of us would rather find solutions they haven't come out against and meet their criteria because we think it's more feasible and the lowest impact on the rest of the playerbase.

Would you please be so nice and link me to where the devs ruled out vet overland instances for good?
Thanks in advance.

They have a policy to never say never but they have said no to vet Overland and why on multiples occasions. This is why I wanted to make a suggestion that wasn't vet overland but still made things harder. Because the playerbase has been told "no" for years to vet Overland.

I compiled some answers here with select highlights from Rich's twitch.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also here are some responses from Rich Lambert and Mike Finnagin that I had compiled in another thread that I think are pertinent here.

On Vet Overland: [Source for both following responses]
[source 2 just forumers discussing this video in case the link is broken]
"So, we had that, Jeulen, at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out and we put the challenge into world bosses and into solo arenas and into dungeons and trials."

“People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.”

...

“I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than where we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go an experience story.”

“And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.”

On a Toggle:

"Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.”

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty sliders/settings[Source]

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that."

On what content players want to do these days (this was NOT said about Vet Overland, but instead was in an different interview where they asked him this question. While this response was never meant by him to address Vet Overland, I do think it's pertinent to know what is the vast majority of content that players engage in)[Source]

The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

In a nutshell, players want to see that you are going to put the effort into improving the game over time. And if you continue to do that, they’re going to stay and play and have a good time.

For the full transcript of the Rich interview check out SilverBride post.

SilverBride wrote: »

Rich Lambert recently addressed this in a Twitch stream here and gives an explanation as to why things are as they are now. I encourage others to please watch it for his perspective.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1133028256?t=1h48m0s 1:48:00 through 1:51:11

It appears the full video is no longer available and may have been taken down, but the first part of the stream is avaialble here: https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineLovelyGrassTakeNRG-IGkmH8s1XHeD9P2u

Click SPOILER for a written transcript of the complete stream.

Can we get a vet mode for delves and quests? Uh, so we had that ... at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out. We put the challenge into World Bosses, and into solo Arenas, and into Dungeons and Trials.

[Speaks about skyshards then returns to the topic.]

People didn't do it because they had to go through their own alliance first? That's not actually true. A ton of people completed their own alliance storylines to get to silver and gold. A ton of people did. People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff.

I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things. And so that was why we did what we did and said story is soloable and quick path will always be soloable and if you want the extra challenge you can go seek out other things to challenge you.

I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story.

And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.

Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it.

For an official interview check out Zathras post

_Zathras_ wrote: »

The relative ease of content in Elsweyr and Elder Scrolls Online as a whole has been a common complaint as the game's playerbase ages. Players have asked for alternate difficulty options for the open-world questing experience, to have a challenge outside of dungeons and trials. Lambert says that this probably won't be coming because Zenimax Online wants the entire storyline to be accessible.

"Balance is obviously a tricky thing. What is too easy for one player is impossible for another," he tells us. "We try to balance so that the average player can have a good experience, especially with the main story content. That's our critical path. If they want to challenge themselves, they can go and do Public Dungeons, or Trials with 12 of their friends. We do make that conscious choice with the crit path to make it playable for as many people as possible."

"As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22."

Source

The TL:DR main reasons were

1. Too high cost in terms of dev time
2. Too few players would use it
3. Difficulty slider options splits the playerbase

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

...I've known many people power level after their first character and then start 'playing the game', doing quests to find out that Overland gameplay is very disappointing.

That is their choice if they level their characters before doing any quests. But doing so creates a situation where the quest mobs are now even easier for them than if they had not powerleveled first.

The fact that some players choose alternate paths to leveling and questing does not mean that the game should go through a major change to accommodate their decision.

The problem with this argument, to me, is ultimately we all must reach I believe CP 160 and then that's when all players can start wearing standard gear. However as you know, CP goes on to something MUCH higher than that.

The misconception is this, I'm not saying that we grind all the way to max CP. Maybe that's not what you were saying which is fine. What I am saying, is alot of players grind at least their first character to 160 CP (or play the game to that point) and then subsequent characters they just grind to lvl 60 and CP catches them up to whatever their new max is from there. See what I mean? It's not really accommodating a personal decision as much as a lack of planning for a Veteran Standard that they set - CP 160. Meaning CP 160 is the gateway between Norm and Vet.

In short, I think it's safe to conclude there was not or maybe was but is no longer a plan in place for Overland difficulty for Vets. Because when it's this easy to eliminate mobs and bosses which were known as being quite formidable from lore, then the game is not creating a story that fits with the lore behind it. This is what I meant earlier about the issue here being more profound than just being about difficulty itself.

This is why at some point I hope that either thru media or patch notes maybe the Devs would be willing to shed some light on this issue, if they consider this an issue. I can only try to help from the way I see things because for the here and now in ESO I mainly PvP, possibly run PvE when friends are online and that's it. There are still tons of quests I need but gameplay wise they just all kind of seem the same, and are not boring but yet, uninteresting. I do however appreciate the work that went into making them.

I get what you are saying about subsequent characters now having all this CP once they hit level 60... but they don't have to apply it, or gear up with the best in slot to continue questing in overland. However I do realize that experience also factors into this and players can't just block out what they've learned.

I am not unsympathetic that some veteran players want more of a challenge in overland, which is why I support measures that I would never use myself, such as an optional debuff and optional veteran story bosses. But there has been a lot of resistance to these suggestions. For some it is a separate veteran overland or nothing, and that is just not feasible for reasons that have already been stated.

For there to be any real chance of anything being done there need to be some proposals presented that would be cost effective and not negatively impact other players or the game. And there needs to be enough players who would utilize it to make it worthwhile.

BIS gear is worthless in overland (or lets say less powerful then basic julianos + ms combo) and it shines in situations where you have fights long enough to build up kinras/kilt stacks and have a way to keep your magicka below 30% all the time. Easy to do in trial fight but in overland that would be a drag as everything dies too fast to even think about rotation. The problem is not a gear or cp but the fact that if you have a basic knolwedge of the game overland quickly becomes trivial for 90%+ of the players. You might like that, some players don't.
Also, we don't know the exact dev cost of each proposition as we don't have access to the data, we can only asume with our personal knowledge. No solution is out of the table until the dev come and say "we are not gonna do it. [snip]
And it is okay to have different opinion [snip].
I will repeat, no idea is out of the table unless some dev will come here and say "hey we like this and that, we definietely won't do this and this because of engine limitations (for example). Same for thinking about cost efficiency as without data we cannot to a thing.

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

I will repeat, no idea is out of the table unless some dev will come here and say "hey we like this and that, we definietely won't do this and this because of engine limitations (for example). Same for thinking about cost efficiency as without data we cannot to a thing.

The devs have taken an option off the table, a separate normal/vet instances. They never say never but they have said no to that specific solution for years. Cost is not her reason, they are the devs reason. Also off the table was a buff slider. Again, maybe this thread will make them reconsider. But those are the two solutions that they have explicitly said "no" to doing in the past.

If you or anyone else is curious about which options they have said "no" to in the past, I encourage you guys to read the post a couple posts above as it still remains the dev comments on the matter until new comments are made.