Overland Content Feedback Thread

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

We never had a veteran overland, I even listed you the differences to which you even agreed. Why you are repeating something that already in this thread was debunked as a simply not true is beyond me really. Reminder:

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, please explain how an optional veteran overland is different from the veteran overland zones that existed before One Tamriel, because the only difference I see is that it would be optional.

- Optional
- Two type of instances instead of 3 (normal, vet vs AD, EP, DC) + bigger game population (more ppl in both instance types)
- no restrictions based on factions [i think this one was a major pain point of older game version, because of that if you choose to play khajiit in AD you couldn't play together with your friend who played orc in DC + other stupid problems]
- no forced quest route, for example if you dont like EP storyline, you dont need to do it, before OT decision where you go was based on zone level
- no outleveling or underleveling
- all additions and QoL accessible today vs ESO qol from 2014 (or rather lack of any)
- no quests that force you to group (you can do quests solo or in group) like in old Craglorn

Thank you for your answer. This is a good description of how the game was before One Tamriel and clearly shows that this isn't what you, or any of us want today.

Why change it now? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

colossalvoids

LashanW wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

Wrong. This was addressed earlier in this thread. I love endgame group content, doing vet trials with my trial guildies is my favorite thing to do in ESO. But I have little to no experience in hard content in overland. Why? Because they serve no purpose other than just "being" there. Seen world bosses enough. I have seen a Summerset geyser once. Don't even know what a harrowstorm look like.

When I'm in overland, I want to follow stories. Hard content in overland are not part of the story, they give shite rewards for doing them. Why on earth would I bother with them? Of course I'd get bored and move on even if I did them. Challenge alone is not a good enough incentive for storyless content.

I'd spend a lot of time in overland if there's a veteran version. I'd do quests with all my different characters, because their different skills will actually make for a unique experience. Hell I could even do Co-Op with my RL buddies in overland.
Right now what's the point of all the different skills and classes for doing story? Things die in seconds regardless (assuming you have a bit of competency and no other limitations).

Couldn't agree more here!

mickeyx

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

this has been mentioned many times before. Harrowstorm, Dragons and Craglorn. Ignored by players. Other than Skyreach which is a grinding spot and people charge you gold to level you there. The rest of the Craglorn is deserted. That's why i can't take 'make overland hard pls' crowd seriously. We already know how hard overland is being ignored by the majority of the player base.

Also, trash mob is trash for a reason and is meant to be obliterated in as little time as possible. I dont know why people think buffing trash mobs would make anything more fun. I enjoy FFXIV a lot for that very reason. Minimal trash mob in stories as well as in dungeons. And i appreciate ESO for not wasting my time and let me experience stories with minimal downtime and obstacles.

Edited to add 'Dragons' to the post. Those poor things are ignored as well.

Harvokaan

mickeyx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

this has been mentioned many times before. Harrowstorm and Craglorn. Ignored by players. Other than Skyreach which is a grinding spot and people charge you gold to level you there. The rest of the Craglorn is deserted. That's why i can't take 'make overland hard pls' crowd seriously. We already know how hard overland is being ignored by the majority of the player base.

Many times before ppl also described why Craglorn was a failure and why proposed vet overland is different (main Craglorn problem was that i t forced ppl to group to do quests, allowing ppl to group for quests and forcing it are two different things).
On PC EU Craglorn is one of the most populated zones from base game (pre Orsinium) if you not counting major trade hubs.
It isn't hard to find comments about craglorn, it design flaws and differences in what is proposed in this very thread.

mickeyx

Harvokaan wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

this has been mentioned many times before. Harrowstorm and Craglorn. Ignored by players. Other than Skyreach which is a grinding spot and people charge you gold to level you there. The rest of the Craglorn is deserted. That's why i can't take 'make overland hard pls' crowd seriously. We already know how hard overland is being ignored by the majority of the player base.

Many times before ppl also described why Craglorn was a failure and why proposed vet overland is different (main Craglorn problem was that i t forced ppl to group to do quests, allowing ppl to group for quests and forcing it are two different things).
On PC EU Craglorn is one of the most populated zones from base game (pre Orsinium) if you not counting major trade hubs.
It isn't hard to find comments about craglorn, it design flaws and differences in what is proposed in this very thread.

You mean only vet players with 2k cp and gold armor and weapons would solo new vet zones while everyone else will be 'forced' to group for it? i dont see any difference then because vet players are still soloing Craglorn. The problem is for players who are causals. They have no other option but to be 'forced' to group. And yet no one wants to group with them. I see many requests for group content by new players being ignored in Craglorn on daily basis.

Harvokaan

mickeyx wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

this has been mentioned many times before. Harrowstorm and Craglorn. Ignored by players. Other than Skyreach which is a grinding spot and people charge you gold to level you there. The rest of the Craglorn is deserted. That's why i can't take 'make overland hard pls' crowd seriously. We already know how hard overland is being ignored by the majority of the player base.

Many times before ppl also described why Craglorn was a failure and why proposed vet overland is different (main Craglorn problem was that i t forced ppl to group to do quests, allowing ppl to group for quests and forcing it are two different things).
On PC EU Craglorn is one of the most populated zones from base game (pre Orsinium) if you not counting major trade hubs.
It isn't hard to find comments about craglorn, it design flaws and differences in what is proposed in this very thread.

You mean only vet players with 2k cp and gold armor and weapons would solo new vet zones while everyone else will be 'forced' to group for it? i dont see any difference then because vet players are still soloing Craglorn. The problem is for players who are causals. They have no other option but to be 'forced' to group. And yet no one wants to group with them. I see many requests for group content by new players being ignored in Craglorn on daily basis.

1. No, I don't mean 2k cp players with best gear. You can solo craglorn stuff with purple gear and 300 cp (even lower) if you know what you are doing.
2. If only our propositions for vet content would include something like "optional" choice so players can decide if they want to do harder content solo/with group or go to easier mode where you can kill everything just by looking at it... My god, why nobody in this entire thread thought about it... /s
3. I see a lot of ppl grouping up for craglorn. Not so much for dragons or harrowstorms but mainly because ppl did a ton of them during release/events and it is repetable content that gets boring quickly (do 30 harrowstorms at one day and you will quickly learn what i mean by that) + rewards from this activities are mediocre at best. Why comparing repetable activity that is already in the game for a long time to quests where this two activities are completely different?
4. How exactly optional vet overland hurt csuals when they can just stay at normal? Why more options for ppl who are not happy with current overland is a bad thing?
5. You basically prove my point of craglorn being bad design and you highlighted that optional vet overland is something much better because it removes your main concerns about craglorn so thanks i guess?

Chilly-McFreeze

Harvokaan wrote: »

3. I see a lot of ppl grouping up for craglorn. Not so much for dragons or harrowstorms but mainly because ppl did a ton of them during release/events and it is repetable content that gets boring quickly (do 30 harrowstorms at one day and you will quickly learn what i mean by that) + rewards from this activities are mediocre at best. Why comparing repetable activity that is already in the game for a long time to quests where this two activities are completely different?

What people should ask themselves is why do (experienced) players (that aren't in it for the monster set) choose vet dungeons over normal ones. Is it for the extra Transmute Crystals or is it because they have more fun by having some challenge instead of blazing through?

If you (general you) come to the conclusion that it's the fun that pulls players into vet content, then you have found the reason for optional overland content as well.

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If you (general you) come to the conclusion that it's the fun that pulls players into vet content, then you have found the reason for optional overland content as well.

A lot of them are there for the monster helms and jewelry tbh. I usually have to recruit to find people interested in the challenge, though finding the occasional group that are doing it for the love of the challenge is always great fun.

Chilly-McFreeze

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If you (general you) come to the conclusion that it's the fun that pulls players into vet content, then you have found the reason for optional overland content as well.

A lot of them are there for the monster helms and jewelry tbh. I usually have to recruit to find people interested in the challenge, though finding the occasional group that are doing it for the love of the challenge is always great fun.

After nearly 7 years I'd guess that most veterans (!) don't go into Wayrest Sewers for the helmet. But sure, purple platings could be one reason to run it. Each to their own experience, I guess. Yet, I wouldn't underestimate the challenge and fun factor in a game.

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If you (general you) come to the conclusion that it's the fun that pulls players into vet content, then you have found the reason for optional overland content as well.

A lot of them are there for the monster helms and jewelry tbh. I usually have to recruit to find people interested in the challenge, though finding the occasional group that are doing it for the love of the challenge is always great fun.

After nearly 7 years I'd guess that most veterans (!) don't go into Wayrest Sewers for the helmet. But sure, purple platings could be one reason to run it. Each to their own experience, I guess. Yet, I wouldn't underestimate the challenge and fun factor in a game.

Alts and guildmates exist. Also you don't have to be playing since launch to be a veteran player.

Lord Warden, Maw, Kjalnar, Slimecraw (isn't that wayrest sewers come to think of it?)...there are plenty of popular monster helms. And plenty of people who want less popular ones just to sticker fill or to try out some build they came up with.

Like "can someone help me farm x helm" is super common in guild chats and "LF for Y helm" is super common in PUGs.

All I can say is that it's always a pleasant surprise to me when people are doing it for fun. I'm always seeing a farming ask and people generally avoid the challenge options, especially in pugs. You gotta plan ahead the challenge stuff and it can be tough to find groups for it. And those happening in pugs is pretty rare.

I know people do it for fun too, I am one of them. But most of the time when I'm asked to do a vet dungeon people are looking for stuff. I also find lf gear in pugs to be extremely common.

Oh also people looking for the Undaunted keys is super common in the vet base games.

Vulkunne

Group Difficulty, that is to say, Difficulty resulting from some Overland Event or even from an actual PvE Delve, Public Dungeon, is not the same as scaling Difficulty for Vet Players over CP 160.

There are some parts of the game, as an MMO, meant for Groups to run and its Difficulty is scaled for that type of experience. It is another thing completely to scale Difficulty for Overland encounters to your actual CP.

These two concepts are not the same. For example. Obviously like a CP 160 person in CP 160 armor + weapons will have an advantage in content over someone just starting and wearing their initial quest loot. Which I happen to like actually hah. However, this is Difficulty adjusted to compensate for a stronger player, not BIS, not meta.

Then there is Group Content where currently it seems the expectation for Normal is for folks less than CP 160 and Vet would be higher than CP 160 of course. Then there's HM which we won't talk about here as it is clearly out of scope.

Big Big World of Difference in Leaps and Bounds between scaling to compensate for vet gear and lvl'd skills, and scaling to challenge a group of the same or less who are expected to coordinate and help one another. Yeah it doesn't always happen I know, but still there it is

You can't say well this is Hard Overland Content and no one does it so therefore no one wants it. That's just not correct. No one is running it solo and no one wants to and nor should they. There are some things in game, where it is just not proper to run Solo because its supposed to require a group.

On the other hand, outside of specific events designed for a group to overcome, there is no scaling whatsoever for CP Vets. And that's where our main issue lives.

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

We never had a veteran overland, I even listed you the differences to which you even agreed. Why you are repeating something that already in this thread was debunked as a simply not true is beyond me really.

We absolutely had veteran overland zones. That is what Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold were. That is the 2/3 of the game Rich Lambert said was not being played because players did not like the difficulty in the story.

What I agreed to was your description of how things were before One Tamriel. I never once agreed that there were not veteran zones because that is exactly what Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold were. They were veteran level for veteran level players. I know because I played through them, but only once because it was not the least bit enjoyable and I never wanted to do it again. But more importantly most others didn't play them either, which is why they were removed.

spartaxoxo

Current overland content that is tuned towards difficulty like Harrowstorms are supposed to largely be done by individuals who want a challenge and come together naturally on the map, to the indicated challenge zone. Not by premades. If enough solo players were interested they'd go over to that content, see others wanting to do it too, and just start doing it.

So they are a good indicator that the interest in them is smaller. Because they largely attract individual solo players to come together to tackle them together on the map.

I generally see "lack of rewards" as the main reason vet solo players don't actually do that. And indeed they do go there during events (along with everyone else).

But if you'd only tackle it for the reward, then that indicates a lack of interest of doing it just because it's fun alone.

A lot of people said the same about that Halloween boss. They did it once for fun then not again due to lackluster rewards.

Which leads to the incentive problem that Rich mentioned.

To me, it leads to one conclusion. Not enough people are interested in this content for just fun. Therefore, you gotta incentivize it to have a large enough group to even make it worth it. And yet, quests are not repeatable. If you incentivize it you screw over all of your casual players who did the quest on normal permanently on those characters. So obviously the incentives can't be things people would be mad to miss out on like achievements or cosmetics.

So what can you even give that content?

Parasaurolophus

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

I would just like to remind you that in this game, apart from Craglorn, whose problems have already been discussed here more than once, there have never been any truly veteran locations. Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased. The players only needed to meet the required level, not only for one location, but also inside the location, which was very frustrating so we could not freely explore the zone. So the difference between level 1 and level 5 mobs was colossal. In fact, level 10 mobs were unkillable for a level 5-6 player.

@FlopsyPrince, there is a big difference between "play" and "complete". I have a lot of coagulants and reagents from dragons. I have everything related to these achievements. I have "closed" or "completed" this content. For me, as for many other players, there is absolutely no incentive to return to the zone, even if it is no more than two or three months old. Because all overland content isn't just too trivial - it's one-off. Sometimes I really go back to Summerset to farm the geysers for the reagents, but since the drop chance is very small, I get bored very quickly.
The fact that you complain that no one is doing dragons and storms, confirms that overland as a whole is of little interest to anyone. Most of the players completed it and left.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22.

Edit

And here's an example of such feedback from back then

"...It was far more difficult and unenjoyable than any game should be."

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

This.

I remember dying to mobs of wolves... wolves. I used to have to try to take out one wolf before I died, then the next, then the last. It made questing very long and tedious.

This is why I never did it again on any other characters, and why most other players also avoided these zones. Players in general do not like this level of difficulty while questing.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

This.

I remember dying to mobs of wolves... wolves. I used to have to try to take out one wolf before I died, then the next, then the last. It made questing very long and tedious.

This is why I never did it again on any other characters, and why most other players also avoided these zones. Players in general do not like this level of difficulty while questing.

TBH. The only thing I think can really be taken away from it though is that it's a minority that enjoy harder difficulty. And that it absolutely cannot be forced.

Which isn't that surprising because it's true in general of the industry when they offer multiple difficulty settings. People tend to prefer whatever is the normal mode.

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22.

I've heard a lot of players complaining that the zones required the appropriate level, even within the same location. And the players could not freely explore the location. The mobs in the south of Auridon were significantly stronger than the mobs in the north of Auridon. But they did not fundamentally differ from the zones of silver and gold. I played then and I remember very well. I started out as a nightblade archer. I didn't even use any healing skills, only potions. And I didn't have any difficulties in the overland. ESO was my first mmo. I didn't have any sets at all. I learned about the existence of craft sets when I was 14 vr.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22.

I've heard a lot of players complaining that the zones required the appropriate level, even within the same location. And the players could not freely explore the location. The mobs in the south of Auridon were significantly stronger than the mobs in the north of Auridon. But they did not fundamentally differ from the zones of silver and gold. I played then and I remember very well. I started out as a nightblade archer. I didn't even use any healing skills, only potions. And I didn't have any difficulties in the overland. ESO was my first mmo. I didn't have any sets at all. I learned about the existence of craft sets when I was 14 vr.

Again, that's your personal experience. Your personal experience doesn't negate others personal experience nor the devs statement that they did remove difficulty.

It's great that you didn't have trouble. It probably means you have good reflexes and you're probably a skilled player now. But your personal anecdote simply doesn't trump the devs design decisions nor the feedback of others.

The majority of people did find the difficulty increase to be noticeable and they didn't like that difficulty. When they studied the game to fix it they looked at the feedback and data they were getting and the majority explicitly cited the difficulty as one of their pain points and their play data also reflected that.

It was most certainly not the only problem. But it was one of them. And this history lead to the current Overland design, and that has made them a success.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

That's a good point but I'm not convinced because there is such a large causal playerbase.

It would be nice to try out a debuff, if only to show how many use it and how much interest there is.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

That's a good point but I'm not convinced because there is such a large causal playerbase.

It would be nice to try out a debuff, if only to show how many use it and how much interest there is.

Yeah. I agree with you. I also think they should maybe guage interest by putting on a new, totally standalone zone in place of one of the dungeons in the dungeon pack. (So 1 new dungeon and 1 small zone). See how it goes over. A small adventure zone to test the waters.

I don't see them going back to old content to make a vet zone, but if that goes over well then maybe they will feel less risk in doing more such zones.

And I don't think that many casuals would object to have 1 less new dlc dungeon in their queue.

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22.

I've heard a lot of players complaining that the zones required the appropriate level, even within the same location. And the players could not freely explore the location. The mobs in the south of Auridon were significantly stronger than the mobs in the north of Auridon. But they did not fundamentally differ from the zones of silver and gold. I played then and I remember very well. I started out as a nightblade archer. I didn't even use any healing skills, only potions. And I didn't have any difficulties in the overland. ESO was my first mmo. I didn't have any sets at all. I learned about the existence of craft sets when I was 14 vr.

Again, that's your personal experience. Your personal experience doesn't negate others personal experience nor the devs statement that they did remove difficulty.

It's great that you didn't have trouble. It probably means you have good reflexes and you're probably a skilled player now. But your personal anecdote simply doesn't trump the devs design decisions nor the feedback of others.

The majority of people did find the difficulty increase to be noticeable and they didn't like that difficulty. When they studied the game to fix it they looked at the feedback and data they were getting and the majority explicitly cited the difficulty as one of their pain points and their play data also reflected that.

It was most certainly not the only problem. But it was one of them. And this history lead to the current Overland design, and that has made them a success.

I don’t deny that people have different experiences. However, I cannot say that I played well. I couldn't even complete any group dungeons on my level. I understand that nobody is required to be able to play good, but it's really hard for me to imagine how an 8vr player could have difficulty completing content for 6-7vr. Most likely this player was doing something wrong.
Also, when the OT release took place, I did not notice the difference in the difficulty of the mobs, they were the same for me as they always were. Therefore, I do not believe that the difficulty has been reduced. ZoS just removed the levels.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Yes, the gold and silver zones led us to the so-called veteran locations that required us to have veteran levels. However, mobs of your level have always been easy, and it doesn't matter at level 10 or at veteran 10. So the difficulty of the locations never increased.

Yes it did and players quite often complained about the difficulty increase. Just because it was not an issue for you doesn't mean it was not an issue. The devs themselves stated they got a lot of negative feedback about the difficulty and the person you're talking to was relaying their own personal negative experience with the difficulty.

As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22.

I've heard a lot of players complaining that the zones required the appropriate level, even within the same location. And the players could not freely explore the location. The mobs in the south of Auridon were significantly stronger than the mobs in the north of Auridon. But they did not fundamentally differ from the zones of silver and gold. I played then and I remember very well. I started out as a nightblade archer. I didn't even use any healing skills, only potions. And I didn't have any difficulties in the overland. ESO was my first mmo. I didn't have any sets at all. I learned about the existence of craft sets when I was 14 vr.

Again, that's your personal experience. Your personal experience doesn't negate others personal experience nor the devs statement that they did remove difficulty.

It's great that you didn't have trouble. It probably means you have good reflexes and you're probably a skilled player now. But your personal anecdote simply doesn't trump the devs design decisions nor the feedback of others.

The majority of people did find the difficulty increase to be noticeable and they didn't like that difficulty. When they studied the game to fix it they looked at the feedback and data they were getting and the majority explicitly cited the difficulty as one of their pain points and their play data also reflected that.

It was most certainly not the only problem. But it was one of them. And this history lead to the current Overland design, and that has made them a success.

I don’t deny that people have different experiences. However, I cannot say that I played well. I couldn't even complete any group dungeons on my level. I understand that no one should be able to play, but it's really hard for me to imagine how an 8vr player could have difficulty completing content for 6-7vr. Most likely this player was doing something wrong.
Also, when the OT release took place, I did not notice the difference in the difficulty of the mobs, they were the same for me as they always were. Therefore, I do not believe that the difficulty has been reduced. ZoS just removed the levels.

They literally stated they did. And other players noted how much better it felt. So I don't know what to tell you. I think it's pretty objectively true that they adjusted the difficulty and that players left feedback they enjoyed it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

That's a good point but I'm not convinced because there is such a large causal playerbase.

It would be nice to try out a debuff, if only to show how many use it and how much interest there is.

Yeah. I agree with you. I also think they should maybe guage interest by putting on a new, totally standalone zone in place of one of the dungeons in the dungeon pack. (So 1 new dungeon and 1 small zone). See how it goes over. A small adventure zone to test the waters.

I don't see them going back to old content to make a vet zone, but if that goes over well then maybe they will feel less risk in doing more such zones.

And I don't think that many casuals would object to have 1 less new dlc dungeon in their queue.

I could go along with that. Getting current data on how much interest there is would be invaluable in helping resolve this issue.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

It would be nice to try out a debuff, if only to show how many use it and how much interest there is.

It would fail, never ever met a person wanting a debuff on him to make game more enjoyable (excluding nocp/cp pvp because it's a debuff on EVERYONE). Met people wanting to have meaningful progression outside of group content, people who want to enjoy quests (or enjoy them more) etc but never debuff was considered as a good solution but in this thread by exactly two people (was there 3?) with a lot of resistance from people actually seeking challenge. Should be pretty evidential it would fail because there is no interest in such solutions from observing such threads.

Would be a different song if properly tuned "pve battlespirit" was an instance-wide thing accordingly to your dungeon mode setting being veteran upon zoning.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other than that I do think that a vet overland experience of any unforced kind would go over a lot better today.

Grouping is more accessible, player power is higher, etc.

That's a good point but I'm not convinced because there is such a large causal playerbase.

It would be nice to try out a debuff, if only to show how many use it and how much interest there is.

I also think they should maybe guage interest by putting on a new, totally standalone zone in place of one of the dungeons in the dungeon pack. (So 1 new dungeon and 1 small zone). See how it goes over. A small adventure zone to test the waters.

Can already imagine an outcry if at least a small patch of soil would be non newbie friendly with lore "hidden" behind some sort of challenge. It's probably the most unlikely thing to happen though it would be interesting to try.

spartaxoxo

There was more than 3 people in this thread that said they'd like to see a debuff, it's just 3 that have been really vocal. Moreover it's like 5 people that have been really vocal about not wanting one. Most of the posts in this thread come from the same handful of people on both sides, let's be real.

Moreover, debuffs are also common in video games and mods. So there's clearly people who enjoy them.

They are like the Hawaiian pizza of video games. They may be nowhere near as popular as Pepperoni and the people who dislike it are very loud in their dislike but enough people like it that it's a successful pizza found at many, many pizza joints all over the USA.

colossalvoids

I hope you can see the difference between a solo game debuffs, universal debuffs like bs and a debuff working just for you alone and not affecting anyone around.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

I hope you can see the difference between a solo game debuffs, universal debuffs like bs and a debuff working just for you alone and not affecting anyone around.

They have similarities and differences, nevertheless it's untrue that nobody likes them even in this thread. One of the earliest responses in this thread before it became a 40 page monstrosity dominated by the same like what 10 people, is people asking for debuffs so they can use them and still play with their friends and group mates who aren't using them.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I hope you can see the difference between a solo game debuffs, universal debuffs like bs and a debuff working just for you alone and not affecting anyone around.

They have similarities and differences, nevertheless it's untrue that nobody likes them even in this thread. One of the earliest responses in this thread before it became a 40 page monstrosity dominated by the same like what 10 people, is people asking for debuffs so they can use them and still play with their friends and group mates who aren't using them.

I'll start small and just ask if you're the one advocating for it how would it solve your issues (if you had any?) and what are those issues for you, just as example? Not trying to bait or something, I'm seriously don't see any value in it for myself so what would be the benefit for at least some people, there should be any to begin with.