Overland Content Feedback Thread

TequilaFire

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

But you also shouldn't be able to just run through the zone picking up 50 mobs and killing them in a couple attacks either.

Why not?

Maybe because it looks stupid and is anticlimatic [snip], especially when you perform such actions as low level nobody and have no issues doing so. Vestige is not demigod, powerful yes but even dragonborn in skyrim couldn't do such things.

Maybe you find it fun, good for you. But some players might want to at least feel danger in such situations.

SilverBride wrote: »

I can't think of a single overland quest that claimed a fight was impossible. There are quest bosses to be defeated that a vet geared and experienced player won't find difficult, but most others will.

A lot of quests build up those "really hard fights with low chances for success". Faolchu in Gelnumbra supposed to be almost impossible to defeat, dies in 3-4 seconds. Dagoth from current year long story expansion. Rada from Greymoor. Damn Mannimarco is one of the most powerful necros in elder scrolls, dies in couple seconds.
Lore wise a lot of quest enemies are tough and often super dangerous. Gameplay wise most of them are dead after couple seconds. If it fits your power fantasy, good for you. But I think it is really understandable why ppl expect those fights to be more meaningfull and harder.
Ludonarrative dissonance at its finest

[edited for profanity bypass]

All those fights you mentioned from base game used to be fairly hard but were changed to be more in line with the average player base. Not to mention our own power creep.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

Maybe because it looks stupid and is anticlimatic

I mean, I don't agree. It makes your guy look extremely powerful and gameplay wise enables stuff like exp farming. Which I think is appropriate for someone that narratively can beat a Daedric prince.

Exp farming is a task I do think should be there too from a gameplay standpoint. It is good to have alt and new player friendly things.

But honestly it's only the bosses that should put up a threat from strictly the standpoint of the narrative IMO. Someone who knocked the taste out of Molag Bal's mouth shouldn't be threatened by low level grunts IMO. Gameplay wise there should be ofc an option to make them a threat too just because it's more fun to a lot of people.

Sylvermynx

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I can't think of a single overland quest that claimed a fight was impossible. There are quest bosses to be defeated that a vet geared and experienced player won't find difficult, but most others will.

A lot of quests build up those "really hard fights with low chances for success".

Where does the game claim this? I have never had a quest tell me that a boss fight would be a really hard fight with a low chance for success. What I am told is that I am the one who can defeat this boss and save others from this threat.

That's how I've seen it as well. Of course, I've never been able to kill ANYTHING in 1 or 2 seconds, other than critters....

mickeyx

LashanW wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

It's all subjective isn't it? what constitutes a good story and what's not? for me, its amazing compared to other MMOS which simply tell me to collect 10 tails or 10 meat. This is the only MMO where i can run my 10th alt through stories and still never get bored. Each to their own.

It is indeed subjective (that's why whatever changes happen to overland, they must be optional). For some people good gameplay is important to enjoy a good story.

People like me can't even finish running my main character through the stories, nevermind my 16 alts. I get bored to death in less than half an hour.

The strength of a story is gauged by how well is written along with the characters. That's what makes a story engaging not how hard the trash mobs are to defeat. This game does a good job in making me feel powerful and as main hero of the story who is out there to save the world. The only other MMO that makes me feel powerful is Black Desert Online.

I hate nothing more than spending 10 minutes to defeat trash mobs just to move to another spot do it again and again till I reach the conclusion of the story. I want to feel badass and powerful hero who can destroy god's. And the game makes me feel that way most of the times during overland story.

LashanW

mickeyx wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

It's all subjective isn't it? what constitutes a good story and what's not? for me, its amazing compared to other MMOS which simply tell me to collect 10 tails or 10 meat. This is the only MMO where i can run my 10th alt through stories and still never get bored. Each to their own.

It is indeed subjective (that's why whatever changes happen to overland, they must be optional). For some people good gameplay is important to enjoy a good story.

People like me can't even finish running my main character through the stories, nevermind my 16 alts. I get bored to death in less than half an hour.

The strength of a story is gauged by how well is written along with the characters. That's what makes a story engaging not how hard the trash mobs are to defeat.

That is your opinion. It's fine if you don't understand mine. Don't forget your own words now, it's all subjective.

mickeyx

LashanW wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

It's all subjective isn't it? what constitutes a good story and what's not? for me, its amazing compared to other MMOS which simply tell me to collect 10 tails or 10 meat. This is the only MMO where i can run my 10th alt through stories and still never get bored. Each to their own.

It is indeed subjective (that's why whatever changes happen to overland, they must be optional). For some people good gameplay is important to enjoy a good story.

People like me can't even finish running my main character through the stories, nevermind my 16 alts. I get bored to death in less than half an hour.

The strength of a story is gauged by how well is written along with the characters. That's what makes a story engaging not how hard the trash mobs are to defeat.

That is your opinion. It's fine if you don't understand mine. Don't forget your own words now, it's all subjective.

I am just giving you my opinion on what constitutes a good story. I never said yours is wrong or right. If the narrative doesn't engage you now filling it up with difficult mobs and bosses isn't going to change anything. Because the narration and characters stay the same. (imo)

LashanW

mickeyx wrote: »

I am just giving you my opinion on what constitutes a good story. I never said yours is wrong or right. If the narrative doesn't engage you now filling it up with difficult mobs and bosses isn't going to change anything. Because the narration and characters stay the same. (imo)

It will change everything for me. Don't decide that for me.

Right now quest NPCs speak of great danger and even offer me help sometimes (you know those temporary npcs that follow you). Yet when I face these horrible enemies it's just a bunch of 30k hp enemies (no more than 3 at a time) that do 100 damage once every 5 seconds or so. They all get deleted in a second from my light attack + crystal frag/force pulse (nevermind other skills in my bar lol).

Narrative does not match the associated gameplay. That's why questing here isn't enjoyable for me.

Amottica

I think the game content is balanced very well and is in line with how major MMORPGs balance their content. The regular questing should not be challenging since the story is the focus and these games want to appeal to the masses. Other areas of the game offer more challenges for those who are interested in it.

This seems to work very well since the most successful of this type of MMO have very similar designs. That alone speaks volumes to what works in this business.

mickeyx

LashanW wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

I am just giving you my opinion on what constitutes a good story. I never said yours is wrong or right. If the narrative doesn't engage you now filling it up with difficult mobs and bosses isn't going to change anything. Because the narration and characters stay the same. (imo)

It will change everything for me. Don't decide that for me.

Right now quest NPCs speak of great danger and even offer me help sometimes (you know those temporary npcs that follow you). Yet when I face these horrible enemies it's just a bunch of 30k hp enemies (no more than 3 at a time) that do 100 damage once every 5 seconds or so. They all get deleted in a second from my light attack + crystal frag/force pulse (nevermind other skills in my bar lol).

Narrative does not match the associated gameplay. That's why questing here isn't enjoyable for me.

I am 800 CP and i cant kill anyone in "seconds". I think you exaggerate a little too much. But then again I don't wear gold vet trial gear with perfected weapons and my builds are my own and not the meta copied from youtube . *Shrugs*

Balancing pve content around top players with 1k+ CP and best Armor and weapons game can offer will always be a monumental task.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I can't think of a single overland quest that claimed a fight was impossible. There are quest bosses to be defeated that a vet geared and experienced player won't find difficult, but most others will.

A lot of quests build up those "really hard fights with low chances for success".

Where does the game claim this? I have never had a quest tell me that a boss fight would be a really hard fight with a low chance for success. What I am told is that I am the one who can defeat this boss and save others from this threat.

Main quests of elsweyr main story or greymoor main story for example. Main enemies are described as the enemies capable of destroying the world. Rada was described couple times as the one who is extremely dangerous, command the threat of Grey Host and fight with literal God (Yokudan Leki). Then you fight with him like a half minute and then he is dead. In his vamp form his heavy attack deals like 3k to character without cp, white gear and below lvl 40.
Same guy that was described as one who was fighting as equal against a god. So you have an extremely easy fight during which Rada turns to vamp lord (fight still is extremly easy) and why you are already bored with it you can hear Verandis screaming
"You'll never win through brute force! We need a new strategy!"
From narrative point this fight is a desperate fight where hero and Verandis need to use some strategy and power to defeat the enemy. From gameplay point of view, you just perform your rotation once, kill some trash mobs and then perform rotation once again and he is dead (i dont even need to avoid any of his attacks as dude who was fighting with god as equal cannot deal any serious damage even with hits that were clearly designed to be avoided (but again what is the point when they hit like wet noodle)).

LashanW

mickeyx wrote: »

I am 800 CP and i cant kill anyone in "seconds". I think you exaggerate a little too much. But then again I don't wear gold vet trial gear with perfected weapons and my builds are my own and not the meta copied from youtube . *Shrugs*

I'm not exaggerating, it's just what I experience. Here's some proof btw (hopefully video quality is ok),

https://youtu.be/jep1eb1achk

This is my 17th character. She's level 46 (CP already allocated, I'm 2200CP+). Gear is lvl 34 (sorry I forgot to show that in video). There's a combat metrics window at the end, you can see her gear, skills and CP there. As you can see, it's not exactly a meta build copied from youtube. It's not min-maxxed by any means for PvE as I also do battlegrounds with this character. That is why I golded her main weapon and enchantments. I have tons of materials anyway.

It's pointless to even discuss what my main DD character with perfected trial gear can do in overland (she's min-maxxed to the teeth).

mickeyx wrote: »

Balancing pve content around top players with 1k+ CP and best Armor and weapons game can offer will always be a monumental task.

I fully agree on this. An optional veteran overland is just an unlikely dream for me. I made the decision quite some time ago to take my money and time to other games when I want engaging stories.

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where does the game claim this? I have never had a quest tell me that a boss fight would be a really hard fight with a low chance for success. What I am told is that I am the one who can defeat this boss and save others from this threat.

Main quests of elsweyr main story or greymoor main story for example. Main enemies are described as the enemies capable of destroying the world. Rada was described couple times as the one who is extremely dangerous, command the threat of Grey Host and fight with literal God (Yokudan Leki).

They are enemies capable of destroying the world, and they are extremely dangerous. That is not the same thing as saying they are a hard fight with a low chance for success.

As the hero we are capable of defeating them, which we do, because that is what makes sense.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where does the game claim this? I have never had a quest tell me that a boss fight would be a really hard fight with a low chance for success. What I am told is that I am the one who can defeat this boss and save others from this threat.

Main quests of elsweyr main story or greymoor main story for example. Main enemies are described as the enemies capable of destroying the world. Rada was described couple times as the one who is extremely dangerous, command the threat of Grey Host and fight with literal God (Yokudan Leki).

They are enemies capable of destroying the world, and they are extremely dangerous. That is not the same thing as saying they are a hard fight with a low chance for success.

As the hero we are capable of defeating them, which we do, because that is what makes sense.

In 5-15 seconds? Doesn't make sense to me. A stupid ghost lady that breakdances in Vateshran takes longer than that.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where does the game claim this? I have never had a quest tell me that a boss fight would be a really hard fight with a low chance for success. What I am told is that I am the one who can defeat this boss and save others from this threat.

Main quests of elsweyr main story or greymoor main story for example. Main enemies are described as the enemies capable of destroying the world. Rada was described couple times as the one who is extremely dangerous, command the threat of Grey Host and fight with literal God (Yokudan Leki).

They are enemies capable of destroying the world, and they are extremely dangerous. That is not the same thing as saying they are a hard fight with a low chance for success.

As the hero we are capable of defeating them, which we do, because that is what makes sense.

There is a huge difference between being able to defeat your opponent and being able to obliterate every main story enemy that from narrative point of view are presented as enemies that pose a threat. [snip]
Keep your overland and trivial difficulty. I'm not engaged by this type of gameplay (many ppl aren't), thats why we ask for option for us too. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As the hero we are capable of defeating them, which we do, because that is what makes sense.

In 5-15 seconds? Doesn't make sense to me. A stupid ghost lady that breakdances in Vateshran takes longer than that.

If you are veteran geared and experienced, then yes that is what will happen.

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

Keep your overland and trivial difficulty. I'm not engaged by this type of gameplay (many ppl aren't), thats why we ask for option for us too. [snip]

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

[edited to remove quote]

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

Keep your overland and trivial difficulty. I'm not engaged by this type of gameplay (many ppl aren't), thats why we ask for option for us too. [snip]

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

[edited to remove quote]

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Who is excluding them from that content? You can farm gear in normals, watch guides on YT, practice on target dummy in other players homes (a lot of guilds provides that). This argument hold the same value as saying "vet players are not excluded from overland, even if they dont like it because it is trivial". Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate. Only small % of casual playerbase won't be able to do so because of physical limitations.
ZOS these days works really hard to smaller the gap between floor and ceiling. You can perform 80k+ on trial dummy on any class with julianos + mother sorrow and okayish rotation after couple hours of training. And it is sufficient to do most vet content in game currently.
Nobody excludes those players from learning how to play vet to join vet content

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Who is excluding them from that content? You can farm gear in normals, watch guides on YT, practice on target dummy in other players homes (a lot of guilds provides that). This argument hold the same value as saying "vet players are not excluded from overland, even if they dont like it because it is trivial". Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate. Only small % of casual playerbase won't be able to do so because of physical limitations.
ZOS these days works really hard to smaller the gap between floor and ceiling. You can perform 80k+ on trial dummy on any class with julianos + mother sorrow and okayish rotation after couple hours of training. And it is sufficient to do most vet content in game currently.
Nobody excludes those players from learning how to play vet to join vet content

Players do get kicked from groups if they aren't living up to other's standards. Where is a player supposed to get the best gear and more importantly learn the mechanics of veteran content other than in veteran content?

But my point was that overland is NOT just for the casual player. It is for EVERYONE.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate.

"Casuals aren't excluded, they just have to stop being casual" is not a good way to prove that casuals aren't excluded.

They are excluded. It is not "I don't want to do it because it's boring;" it is "I CAN NOT do this at the current power and experience level," and for many users "I physically cannot do this at all."

Everyone can do quests. Not everyone wants to do them. Not everyone can do vet. That's part of the prestige of vet rewards. It is not the same level of barrier. You are not going to into a quest and beat your head against it for hours and never succeed. However, that is exactly what will happen to some dude 300 cp guy in green gear with 5k dps trying to do something like VVH, despite that being explicitly tuned for solo play.

Having said that, I do agree that there should be an option to make overland more challenging for those that want it.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Who is excluding them from that content? You can farm gear in normals, watch guides on YT, practice on target dummy in other players homes (a lot of guilds provides that). This argument hold the same value as saying "vet players are not excluded from overland, even if they dont like it because it is trivial". Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate. Only small % of casual playerbase won't be able to do so because of physical limitations.
ZOS these days works really hard to smaller the gap between floor and ceiling. You can perform 80k+ on trial dummy on any class with julianos + mother sorrow and okayish rotation after couple hours of training. And it is sufficient to do most vet content in game currently.
Nobody excludes those players from learning how to play vet to join vet content

Players do get kicked from groups if they aren't living up to other's standards. Where is a player supposed to get the best gear and more importantly learn the mechanics of veteran content other than in veteran content?

But my point was that overland is NOT just for the casual player. It is for EVERYONE.

All eso content is not gated behind any restrictions except cp level or dlc ownership. I already told you that you can get 80k+ with crafted + overland gear. Kilt (the most powerful mythic) require one lead from dungeon that can be done on normal, bashei normal vs perfected is the difference of 129 weapon/spell dmg. You can slot normal bashei/medusa OR mother sorrow/kilt and normal maelstrom staff without visiting vet instances even once. That setup allows you to do 100k+ on trial dummy on each class with good rotation.
Vet content in eso is for everyone who is willing to spend some time on skill development/gear farming. It is the most accessible end game content from all mmos on the market currently.
My argument holds is the same value wise as yours. Even more as it is easy to increase your performance (you just need to spend some time on some activities). It is extremely hard to dull your abilities to the level you can enjoy overland without the feeling that you are treated like a child.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Who is excluding them from that content? You can farm gear in normals, watch guides on YT, practice on target dummy in other players homes (a lot of guilds provides that). This argument hold the same value as saying "vet players are not excluded from overland, even if they dont like it because it is trivial". Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate. Only small % of casual playerbase won't be able to do so because of physical limitations.
ZOS these days works really hard to smaller the gap between floor and ceiling. You can perform 80k+ on trial dummy on any class with julianos + mother sorrow and okayish rotation after couple hours of training. And it is sufficient to do most vet content in game currently.
Nobody excludes those players from learning how to play vet to join vet content

Players do get kicked from groups if they aren't living up to other's standards. Where is a player supposed to get the best gear and more importantly learn the mechanics of veteran content other than in veteran content?

But my point was that overland is NOT just for the casual player. It is for EVERYONE.

All eso content is not gated behind any restrictions except cp level or dlc ownership. I already told you that you can get 80k+ with crafted + overland gear. Kilt (the most powerful mythic) require one lead from dungeon that can be done on normal, bashei normal vs perfected is the difference of 129 weapon/spell dmg. You can slot normal bashei/medusa OR mother sorrow/kilt and normal maelstrom staff without visiting vet instances even once. That setup allows you to do 100k+ on trial dummy on each class with good rotation.
Vet content in eso is for everyone who is willing to spend some time on skill development/gear farming. It is the most accessible end game content from all mmos on the market currently.
My argument holds is the same value wise as yours. Even more as it is easy to increase your performance (you just need to spend some time on some activities). It is extremely hard to dull your abilities to the level you can enjoy overland without the feeling that you are treated like a child.

You are saying that casuals can just stop being casual and spend weeks/months perfecting their gear and rotations to turn into vet players. And that because casual players can turn into vet players, that means a casual player can do that content, completely ignoring that they aren't a casual player anymore. Only vet players can do that content.

The people who said to unequip gear, which almost nobody suggested, are in comparison asking you to do a 30 second task that changes absolutely nothing else about the way you play and requires no additional work or learning.

So no its not the same level of argument, even if that was the argument being made (which it isn't). False Equivalency.

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

All eso content is not gated behind any restrictions except cp level or dlc ownership. I already told you that you can get 80k+ with crafted + overland gear. Kilt (the most powerful mythic) require one lead from dungeon that can be done on normal, bashei normal vs perfected is the difference of 129 weapon/spell dmg. You can slot normal bashei/medusa OR mother sorrow/kilt and normal maelstrom staff without visiting vet instances even once. That setup allows you to do 100k+ on trial dummy on each class with good rotation.
Vet content in eso is for everyone who is willing to spend some time on skill development/gear farming. It is the most accessible end game content from all mmos on the market currently.
My argument holds is the same value wise as yours. Even more as it is easy to increase your performance (you just need to spend some time on some activities). It is extremely hard to dull your abilities to the level you can enjoy overland without the feeling that you are treated like a child.

My point was that overland is NOT just for the casual player. It is for EVERYONE. Any player can play in overland, even if they don't find it enjoyable.

But because of this an optional debuff and optional veteran story bosses have been suggested, and supported by many. So those who want more challenging overland fights can.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are for.

You get overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. You get a lot of stuff yearly. We get 4 dungeons and a trial..... And that gets repetitive really really quickly. There's a massive imbalance for veteran players who want difficulty.

Just because other MMO's have their storyline easy, doesn't mean we should stick to that plan.

EVERYONE gets overland, normal dungeons, trials and arenas. NO ONE is excluded from using them.

But players who aren't geared and experienced enough ARE excluded from veteran content because other players will just kick them from the group if they don't live up to their standards.

Who is excluding them from that content? You can farm gear in normals, watch guides on YT, practice on target dummy in other players homes (a lot of guilds provides that). This argument hold the same value as saying "vet players are not excluded from overland, even if they dont like it because it is trivial". Casuals are not exluded from anything, they just need to work if they want to participate. Only small % of casual playerbase won't be able to do so because of physical limitations.
ZOS these days works really hard to smaller the gap between floor and ceiling. You can perform 80k+ on trial dummy on any class with julianos + mother sorrow and okayish rotation after couple hours of training. And it is sufficient to do most vet content in game currently.
Nobody excludes those players from learning how to play vet to join vet content

Players do get kicked from groups if they aren't living up to other's standards. Where is a player supposed to get the best gear and more importantly learn the mechanics of veteran content other than in veteran content?

But my point was that overland is NOT just for the casual player. It is for EVERYONE.

All eso content is not gated behind any restrictions except cp level or dlc ownership. I already told you that you can get 80k+ with crafted + overland gear. Kilt (the most powerful mythic) require one lead from dungeon that can be done on normal, bashei normal vs perfected is the difference of 129 weapon/spell dmg. You can slot normal bashei/medusa OR mother sorrow/kilt and normal maelstrom staff without visiting vet instances even once. That setup allows you to do 100k+ on trial dummy on each class with good rotation.
Vet content in eso is for everyone who is willing to spend some time on skill development/gear farming. It is the most accessible end game content from all mmos on the market currently.
My argument holds is the same value wise as yours. Even more as it is easy to increase your performance (you just need to spend some time on some activities). It is extremely hard to dull your abilities to the level you can enjoy overland without the feeling that you are treated like a child.

You are saying that casuals can just stop being casual and spend weeks/months perfecting their gear and rotations to turn into vet players. And that because casual players can turn into vet players, that means a casual player can do that content, completely ignoring that they aren't a casual player anymore. Only vet players can do that content.

The people who said to unequip gear, which almost nobody suggested, are in comparison asking you to do a 30 second task that changes absolutely nothing else about the way you play and requires no additional work or learning.

So no its not the same level of argument, even if that was the argument being made (which it isn't). False Equivalency.

It would be false equivalency if not the fact that many players here said that not cp and gear are a problem (multiple ppl feel that content is trivial even with only weapon and no cp on low level char). The problem is that overland difficulty is designed for ppl who dont now that they can use healing abilities, that dont roll, block or bash, that light attack and use single ability each 5-6s. Problem is that players who now how to play the game often find overland not fun. And it is not a problem that can be solved in 30s.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

FlopsyPrince

I still have not seen an answer from those who want Vet overland of how long they believe it would satisfy them.

How challenging would each battle need to be?

How would it be implemented? Just more hit points on mobs? Less damage on your part? Something else?

Now consider the amount of developer time, ones who do not even have the time to make many needed bug fixes and are stressed making new content (if I understood the recent official messaging). How would they get the time to make all the changes you want without impacting the rest of the game?

Harvokaan

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I still have not seen an answer from those who want Vet overland of how long they believe it would satisfy them.

Minimum: I can do new quests on main character without bored to death. Right now i stopped doing overland content because it is just too boring. I would stop sooner but did previous stories mainly for achievements.
Optimal: So I can do quests on other chars too. For example argonian related quests on my argonian char or tribunal line for dunmer necro. Right now I just cannot force myself to do so as the content is just unfun.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

How challenging would each battle need to be?

At minimum normal group dungeons difficulty but something like VMA difficulty or a little highier would be great.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

How would it be implemented? Just more hit points on mobs? Less damage on your part? Something else?

Tweaking the numbers, lower cooldown on mob abilities, increase the damage, hp, cast speed. This require minimum amount of devs work as animations, patterns and skills are already there. Making them dangerous and making enemy tanky enough so they can at least cast couple skills before they die would improve the quality greatly.
For stuff that require more dev time: improve AI, like implementing behaviours from vet dungeons where some enemies get out of the aoe. Still not huge amount of work.
For stuff that would require a lot of work: new skills, animations, full skill rotations, more dungeon like mechanics.
TBH even implementing the points that require low amount of dev work would be great.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Now consider the amount of developer time, ones who do not even have the time to make many needed bug fixes and are stressed making new content (if I understood the recent official messaging). How would they get the time to make all the changes you want without impacting the rest of the game?

Ppl who works on bugs are not the same as the ones resposnible for balance, designing new zones, etc. You have different teams responsible for different things. So when some teams might focus on vet overland instead for example new system like companions or mobile minigame (antiquities), new content would still be produced.
This year we got companion system that can be utilized in only casual content, doesnt bring the depth of companions from SWTOR, doesn't help with normal dungeons for solo players, doesnt help in vet content.
So why introducing a system that only part of playerbase can utilize (companions) is worse then creating a system that only part of the playerbase would utilize (vet overland)?

francesinhalover

Hi z, thanks for the great game. That being said.
A difficulty slider would be good.
Make it so that players on max dificulty can get insta killed from channeled attacks enemies do if they fail to bash.
Increase quest boss hp and dmg.
And increase the xp gain only.
No other rewards. No need to make casual players angry.

francesinhalover

Theres some slight changes that would improve stealth pve a lot. I understand however that these would require work and i respect your decision if you chose to ignore them.

- When on stealth, if a enemy is insta killed it wont alert other enemies that are nearby. Only if they see the npc die.

Optional ones:

- increase stealth dmg multiplier vs npcs. Just a slight increase of 25% would help so much.

- increase a bit the xp gained when using blade of woe.(it has a huge reduction atm).

- Mirri and bastian wont mind if use blade of woe on Enemies.

- And finaly stealth blade of woe / vampire execute has a chance of making humanoid enemies cower in fear for 4 seconds. This makes it easier to do a double kill on a npc with a blade of woe! (Triple if you have the cp stealth blade of woe passive).

---

I just want to thank z for adding the invisibility when you use the blade of woe cp passive. I can now do really cool plays and have fun killing enemy npcs!
It made the game 1000x more fun for me.

francesinhalover

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

I hate to sound like a *** when I'm not trying to but markets do cater to the majority and the majority are capable of this content. .

The majority of people in this game do not want higher difficulty. Do not like higher difficulty. And are NOT capable of doing harder content, because they do not want to research anything. The companions are the way they are because that is how they have to be tuned to be just below the average player in dungeons. Those players aren't gonna force themselves to do it. They will just leave. The current state of Overland IS zos catering to the majority.

People who want harder overland or who want to flag for PvP are in the minority.

As Rich said, the numbers don't lie.

I just want quest bosses to have 100% more hp. It feels so anticlimatic the way they are now.