Overland Content Feedback Thread

Parasaurolophus

webgeo99 wrote: »

The "overland" content is NOT to easy. It's meant for new players to ease into the game. what do you want, Vet level overland where everybody under the CP level of 3600 constantly dies?

If I'm not a new player then I don't need to play?

SilverBride

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Rich Lambert has already spoken about this and believes that everything is fine now.

Richard Lambert probably doesn't play the game much and the fact that this thread has been created and is now 37 pages long demonstrates that there is significant interest in some form of vet overland.

And as Richard Lambert is a human being and not a bot he is perfectly capable of updating his opinion.

Rich does play. He streams on Twitch as Slashlurk.

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

Ermiq

webgeo99 wrote: »

The "overland" content is NOT to easy. It's meant for new players to ease into the game. what do you want, Vet level overland where everybody under the CP level of 3600 constantly dies?

It IS. It was easy 4 years ago when I started playing the game. Just sometimes I've been struggling with some big enemies, but overall it was easy. Today I play with a naked character and it feels even more easier than I recall it.

Franchise408

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

Lots of good discussion.

It would help if maybe instead of having to dig through lots of old Twitch videos and so on, could we request a community article for the web site interviewing several of the development team on the frequently-asked-questions?

I completely understand that any particular thing is always being evaluated and so on, but it would benefit the community at large to hear from the team and their reasoning for things.

So this might have been requested a ton of times already but I want to reiterate @ZOS_Kevin it would be nice to get a "Dev Q&A" sort of article on the official web site next year. Ideally more frequent than once a year.

I'd love to have a regular "Q&A Corner".

Today there's often lots of this detail and thought on issues buried in PTS patch notes and official patch notes, but nothing consolidated or easy to search.

Rich Lambert has already spoken about this and believes that everything is fine now.

Rich Lambert also believes that everything is fine with the random BG queue that only pops Deathmatch.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Rich Lambert has already spoken about this and believes that everything is fine now.

Richard Lambert probably doesn't play the game much and the fact that this thread has been created and is now 37 pages long demonstrates that there is significant interest in some form of vet overland.

And as Richard Lambert is a human being and not a bot he is perfectly capable of updating his opinion.

Rich does play. He streams on Twitch as Slashlurk.

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

webgeo99 wrote: »

The "overland" content is NOT to easy. It's meant for new players to ease into the game. what do you want, Vet level overland where everybody under the CP level of 3600 constantly dies?

There is a huge gap between current difficulty and everyone below cp3600 die. HUGE

SilverBride

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

Excuse me, was there any? I remember only one poster since the beginning of the thread and that's not much tbh.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

It's not fair at all. Having to debuff our own selves in an overland where people who aren't debuffed can interrupt you. Plus it's basically a blanket fix, and I am not ok with that. I want to see quest bosses with 2-5m HP and not 80-124k. Sure they can deal more damage to you with debuffs, but I don't like them still having the same amount of HP etc. It's just so boring.

Debuff option will just not work. I'd personally never use it, at all.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

It's not fair at all. Having to debuff our own selves in an overland where people who aren't debuffed can interrupt you. Plus it's basically a blanket fix, and I am not ok with that. I want to see quest bosses with 2-5m HP and not 80-124k. Sure they can deal more damage to you with debuffs, but I don't like them still having the same amount of HP etc. It's just so boring.

Debuff option will just not work. I'd personally never use it, at all.

Other players can interrupt you in a separate veteran overland, too.

But the bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with overland just exactly as it is now, and nothing that needs fixed. It is exactly the difficulty it should be so all players of all skill levels and experience can succeed at the story.

The only issue is that some players who are high CP and decked out in veteran gear want overland to keep up with their progress, which is not reasonable.

That being said, many who are against a separate veteran overland do support a debuff so these players can find more of a challenge without it negatively affecting any other players or the story.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

It's not fair at all. Having to debuff our own selves in an overland where people who aren't debuffed can interrupt you. Plus it's basically a blanket fix, and I am not ok with that. I want to see quest bosses with 2-5m HP and not 80-124k. Sure they can deal more damage to you with debuffs, but I don't like them still having the same amount of HP etc. It's just so boring.

Debuff option will just not work. I'd personally never use it, at all.

Other players can interrupt you in a separate veteran overland, too.

But with debuff food, you're handicapped and they are not, whereas in a veteran overland instance none of you are handicapped and it's more equal.

spartaxoxo

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

It's not fair at all. Having to debuff our own selves in an overland where people who aren't debuffed can interrupt you. Plus it's basically a blanket fix, and I am not ok with that. I want to see quest bosses with 2-5m HP and not 80-124k. Sure they can deal more damage to you with debuffs, but I don't like them still having the same amount of HP etc. It's just so boring.

Debuff option will just not work. I'd personally never use it, at all.

Other players can interrupt you in a separate veteran overland, too.

But with debuff food, you're handicapped and they are not, whereas in a veteran overland instance none of you are handicapped and it's more equal.

The difference between a 100k dps and a 35k dps in vet overland would be greater than a debuffed 35k dps and the average person doing overpand now which is like 10k dps. Companions couldn't even be 15k-20k because they'd replace those players.

In both cases, a player with a higher power level than you would decrease the difficulty of the content.

This is a multiplayer game. The realities of multiplayer gaming applies to all possible solutions.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Other players can interrupt you in a separate veteran overland, too.

But with debuff food, you're handicapped and they are not, whereas in a veteran overland instance none of you are handicapped and it's more equal.

There could be a much larger range of levels in a veteran overland than in normal. Let's say for example that players CP 1200 start using veteran overland. With the max CP being 3600 that is a 2400 CP difference. While normal overland would mostly have players level 1 to 1200, which is half the difference and more equal.

How happy will a CP 3600 be with a veteran overland that a CP 1200 would find difficult enough?

This is all hypothetical because not all high CP players would use veteran overland, but the potential for continued dissatisfaction with high CP players is still there, so nothing has been solved.

Edited for clarity.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, many of the posts on this now 38 page thread are against a separate veteran overland.

And many of those who are against vet overland are ppl who are not gonna play vet overland.

Many posters who do want more difficulty are also against a separate veteran overland and in favor of a debuff because it is the least disruptive and most fair solution.

It's not fair at all. Having to debuff our own selves in an overland where people who aren't debuffed can interrupt you. Plus it's basically a blanket fix, and I am not ok with that. I want to see quest bosses with 2-5m HP and not 80-124k. Sure they can deal more damage to you with debuffs, but I don't like them still having the same amount of HP etc. It's just so boring.

Debuff option will just not work. I'd personally never use it, at all.

Other players can interrupt you in a separate veteran overland, too.

But with debuff food, you're handicapped and they are not, whereas in a veteran overland instance none of you are handicapped and it's more equal.

The difference between a 100k dps and a 35k dps in vet overland would be greater than a debuffed 35k dps and the average person doing overpand now which is like 10k dps. Companions couldn't even be 15k-20k because they'd replace those players.

In both cases, a player with a higher power level than you would decrease the difficulty of the content.

This is a multiplayer game. The realities of multiplayer gaming applies to all possible solutions.

To do 100k dps you need to go with full rotation so if mob hp would allow that, your 35k dps would still be able to go with rotation, maybe will take some damage, you know, participate in real fight. In current overland, you will have players without debuff that will one shot or two shot mobs so you can forget about participating in any kind of the fight. There are no 100k burst build that aren't gank or involving using ulti in pve with basically eliminates problem of one person following you and killing everything on your way with 100k to troll. Like 1 out of 10 mobs killed by troll, not every mob.
These situations aren't even close to each other. It will be much easier to troll ppl with debuff in current overland then doing so in vet overland.
Last time when I checked most games increase the power of enemies, not decreasing power of heroes when balancing difficulty. can we stop pretending that different instances of same map don't exist in this game? We already are splitted, we already play in different worlds, the only thing that would change is that players who want difficulty would be placed in instances that suit their needs. No "splitting" the playerbase as putting ppl in different instances wouldn't change, zos is already doing that.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

This is all hypothetical because not all high CP players would use veteran overland, but the potential for continued dissatisfaction with high CP players is still there so nothing has been solved.

True though power isn't just about CP. In the end, the only way to make yourself immune to having someone with higher damage than you waltzing up and killing stuff faster than you can is to be the greatest player on the entire server. If nobody on your server can do a higher parse than you, then you don't have to worry about it.

All other solutions will result in someone who can do more than you occasionally rolling up and killing stuff faster than you do.

And as I said before the disparity would likely be greater in vet overland as one of the points of such an instance would be to entice a lot of top level at full power to do overland that aren't currently doing it. If we must accept that vet overland would likely be the more popular solution with the higher end crowd, then we must also accept that means more chances to run into them as well.

Now potentially the immersive feeling that you get would be worse with a debuff. That is a downside. Because rather than feeling like you're losing out because that person is just so skilled, you'll be losing out because your own power is being dampened. Some people will hate that feeling and some won't mind, both are legitimate feelings about it.

But the actual gameplay impact will be similar. In a multiplayer game you can always run across a stronger player in shared content.

TL;DR
It is not a flaw of either solution, it is simply the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Franchise408

A debuff is an absolutely unacceptable solution to this issue.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all!

After removing a few comments, we would like to remind everyone that Flaming, as well as Trolling and Baiting, are both violations of the Community Guidelines, and are stated as follows:

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LashanW

SilverBride wrote: »

How happy will a CP 3600 be with a veteran overland that a CP 1200 would find difficult enough?

This is all hypothetical because not all high CP players would use veteran overland, but the potential for continued dissatisfaction with high CP players is still there, so nothing has been solved.

Edited for clarity.

People who are experienced with the combat system in this game would know that CP and damage/survivability don't scale linearly.
After you get the 4 blue CP slottables for your class and the passives in that tree, you are pretty much done in terms of damage output. You get there at ~CP1500. Heals and most damage shields scale with your damage stats so your survivability is also covered at this point.

After that you just get more options. For swapping between roles, PvE and PvP etc. Getting more CP is even less relevant with armory system.

Harvokaan

[Snip]
Let ZOS release hard mode version for new chapter overland, see how ppl will react, then adjust the difficulty according to feedback and, if new mode is a success, apply it to older content. Nothing more is needed here.
And for god sake, pls lets stop with this weird opinion that we as a customers should provide the complete solution for this problem. We provide the ideas, they provide the solution. No other way around.
We as customers voice our concerns and provide feedback. Devs take that, examine it and later in long process decide on possible solution and based on later feedback, introduce fixes and adjustments. We wouldn't have any games if devs would leave the problem of designing the solution for game issues to players as there will never be 100% agreement in huge playerbases about anything.
Devs recognize the problem with VR before, their solution was CP system. Some players were happy, some not but that was their decision. Later they recognize the feedback that system is not in great spot, it is boring etc and they introduce cp 2.0. Again some players were happy, some not. Right now we provide the feedback on current system and based on that they will introduce some changes that will make some ppl happy and some angry. Thats how it works in real life

[Edited for discussing moderator action]

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

That being said, many who are against a separate veteran overland do support a debuff so these players can find more of a challenge without it negatively affecting any other players or the story.

A debuff would at least allow the two groups to play together, which is the whole point of One Tamriel.

@Harvokaan is right in that ZOS is really interested in our pain points, and much less interested in our solutions for those pain points. They will do the solution, if they decide to address the pain point. That said, it does not take long to express the pain points, and clarifications to those points, in a forum post. This is a social environment, and while arm chair design is not useful to the developers, it can be a good social engagement for the problem solvers in the community.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

@Harvokaan is right in that ZOS is really interested in our pain points, and much less interested in our solutions for those pain points. They will do the solution, if they decide to address the pain point. That said, it does not take long to express the pain points, and clarifications to those points, in a forum post. This is a social environment, and while arm chair design is not useful to the developers, it can be a good social engagement for the problem solvers in the community.

Presenting suggestions and solutions is an important part of constructive feedback, so I find it very appropriate for this thread. I will summarize what I've taken from this thread so far. Disclaimer: These are not all my personal opinions.

Feedback on Overland Content given by posters:

• Overland is too easy.
• Overland difficulty is fine as it is.
• Story bosses are anticlimactic.
• The story isn't immersive.
• Overland is not challenging for end game players.
• The challenges are in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas.
• Overland is for all players of all levels, skills and experience.

Suggestions and Solutions offered by posters:

• A separate optional veteran overland
• Increased overland difficulty for all players
• Optional veteran story bosses
• Overland mobs scale to the player
• A debuff for those who want more difficulty
• A difficulty slider for the player

NeeScrolls

SilverBride wrote: »

Presenting suggestions and solutions is an important part of constructive feedback, so I find it very appropriate for this thread. I will summarize what I've taken from this thread so far.

Feedback on Overland Content given by posters:
list]
]

i guess my suggestions/ideas on page 32 of this thread didn't make your cut.

I admit, they were pretty nuanced and wordy lol .

TL;DR version: Night-time = more danger ...and... Farther away from cities/wayshrines = tougher enemies (this could mean mechanics & circumstances, not just flat lazy increase in HP or whatever)

*Note: after further testing in-game, i also eventually came around to being very OK with current overland 'status quo' .

Maya_Nur

If devs will eventually decide to separate vOL from nOL, then, please, send them my suggestion to think about making vOL more rewarding by making daily enlightenment (beginning from 160 CP) available only for those who play vet mode.

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

If devs will eventually decide to separate vOL from nOL, then, please, send them my suggestion to think about making vOL more rewarding by making daily enlightenment (beginning from 160 CP) available only for those who play vet mode.

Leveling should absolutely NOT be something that only done in vet content. How do you think people who actually want to challenge themselves are supposed to get CP in a timely fashion and get themselves up to vet level?

Nagastani

Oh nice this has its own thread now. Excellent. Thank you for your kindness ZOS and thank you for hearing us out on this topic as its important to a great many people. New World has been pretty good to me (for the most part) however figured I'd catch up on things around here a little bit. Going thru alot of badness right now so probably won't stick around for too long.

Anyways, so ... let me jump back into this by saying that my original thoughts here was that overland difficulty just wasn't balanced. Like if you go into certain Trials or dungeons, there is what I call 'progressive' difficulty which is more or less based on that mobs role during the run. This was done proper for most part. ie... the 'swarms' of mobs are strong as a whole but not individually, the bosses are stronger in various ways with special abilities and mechanics etc. With this said, ZOS has done a stellar job, I think, on their PvE content as a whole *except* for overland.

When I experience most if not... virtually all overland content, I get the sensation that there is work left to be done... it just feels as if something is not really finished, like something's been left out. The combat experience feels really raw man. It's like I'm fighting the same enemy everywhere I go. It's not immersive, it's not lore friendly either to have mobs running around with the same attack over and over again.

When you have enemies like Daedra for example, their home is Oblivion, they are foreigners in Tamriel and they are not 'our ancestors'. So why do they pretty much the same attacks as other 'lesser' threats like bandits? And that's the thing, it feels like I'm fighting your entry level bandit character... everywhere I go. Fighting Daedra doesn't feel like I'm fighting Daedra. I'm not scared of them. They don't do anything exotic. They don't make other-worldy noises. They fight in a manner similar to Tamriel which doesn't make a lick of sense because in lore they consider themselves superior to Tamriel races.

Moving on. Next we have other groups like the Veiled Heritance. Now there is some distinction with them, as they used daggers and such but really it gets boring as hell fighting the same veiled heritance character over and over again. That's the real weakness in Overland content, as in its current state it can't properly transcend its own limitations when dealing with different factions. I kill one veil heritance NB, I've killed them all, maybe some use bows so its a little different but not really. Veil Heritance should not just be mindless enemies sitting around waiting to die, I should be getting constantly ambushed, insulted and people coming at me sideways. Instead what do they all do... they stand there. And wait to die... with no armor... no serious weapons... and no plan to speak of. They literally add no value to someone whose past lvl 10 so... why have them?

Same thing with Imperial City mobs. They're so easy to kill. Why have them? I know the Dev Team is probably extremely busy and I respect that. I just think that when you guys get a chance, maybe sit down around a kitchen table and explore ideas on how to make overland mobs more distinctive. Daedra should do Daedric attacks, bandits should behave as bandits and so should shadowy groups like the veiled heritance.

One good solution I have is maybe have the mobs level the player in a reasonable way. I'm not advocating for high level zones necessarily. But the only way I can see a true fix here is two things:

a) Look at groups of mobs, factions, assign strengths, defense and attributes appropriate for each.
b) Set all of this to reasonable scale with player level to keep things interesting. Otherwise it quickly reaches a point where the mobs themselves add no value to the game, they're so easy to kill so why have them at all.

Lastly, seeing how everyone doesn't feel this way, I get that and respect your differences. However, I hope you guys aren't trying to intentionally shout people down on here who feel similar to others as well as myself. Please recognize this is now the only thread left in existence for anyone to voice an opinion in favor of making change and reading thru the threads its like some of you guys are trying to shut us out and you shouldn't do that and anyone who agrees not just with me but would like to see some form of meaningful change, in any way, to overland content should be welcome to come here and make your voice be heard also. Everyone is not always going to agree.

spartaxoxo

Nagastani wrote: »

Lastly, seeing how everyone doesn't feel this way, I get that and respect your differences. However, I hope you guys aren't trying to intentionally shout people down on here who feel similar to others as well as myself. Please recognize this is now the only thread left in existence for anyone to voice an opinion in favor of making change and reading thru the threads its like some of you guys are trying to shut us out and you shouldn't do that and anyone who agrees not just with me but would like to see some form of meaningful change, in any way, to overland content should be welcome to come here and make your voice be heard also. Everyone is not always going to agree.

The only people I have seen be told they shouldn't be posting are the people who don't want a separate instance. Anyway, I disagree they should automatically be scaling the mobs because that would force vet overland on people who enjoy the current difficulty.

SilverBride

Nagastani wrote: »

Lastly, seeing how everyone doesn't feel this way, I get that and respect your differences. However, I hope you guys aren't trying to intentionally shout people down on here who feel similar to others as well as myself. Please recognize this is now the only thread left in existence for anyone to voice an opinion in favor of making change and reading thru the threads its like some of you guys are trying to shut us out and you shouldn't do that and anyone who agrees not just with me but would like to see some form of meaningful change, in any way, to overland content should be welcome to come here and make your voice be heard also. Everyone is not always going to agree.

Everyone has the same opportunity to present their feedback, and as you stated not everyone is going to agree. I believe that debating our different views can lead to compromise. Just disagreeing with someone is not shutting them out.

I remember how bad things were before One Tamriel, and the difficulty was a huge factor in my decision to leave the game back then, because I found it impossible to progress. Because of this I am against any suggestions I feel would revert the game I now love back to that state.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Lastly, seeing how everyone doesn't feel this way, I get that and respect your differences. However, I hope you guys aren't trying to intentionally shout people down on here who feel similar to others as well as myself. Please recognize this is now the only thread left in existence for anyone to voice an opinion in favor of making change and reading thru the threads its like some of you guys are trying to shut us out and you shouldn't do that and anyone who agrees not just with me but would like to see some form of meaningful change, in any way, to overland content should be welcome to come here and make your voice be heard also. Everyone is not always going to agree.

Everyone has the same opportunity to present their feedback, and as you stated not everyone is going to agree. I believe that debating our different views can lead to compromise. Just disagreeing with someone is not shutting them out.

I remember how bad things were before One Tamriel, and the difficulty was a huge factor in my decision to leave the game back then, because I found it impossible to progress. Because of this I am against any suggestions I feel would revert the game I now love back to that state.

Multiple times in this thread (and others) ppl were explaining that the game was never in state of having an optional vet difficulty because game before one tamriel was drastically different from what is proposed (optional, no forced grouping, no spliting community based on VR, sharding based on system we know from dungs, normal and vet (or debuff but that is more prefered by ppl who don't want difficulty at all)).
Multiple. Times. In. Almost. Every. Thread.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

Multiple times in this thread (and others) ppl were explaining that the game was never in state of having an optional vet difficulty because game before one tamriel

Strawman. She didn't say anything about vet overland optional proposal in that post.

The person she replied to proposed a solution that mobs scale as you level, which would make it mandatory.

She remembered having scaling mandatory mobs from One Tamriel and said that type of difficulty solution made her quit.

Context matters.

Elsonso

Harvokaan wrote: »

Multiple times in this thread (and others) ppl were explaining that the game was never in state of having an optional vet difficulty because game before one tamriel was drastically different from what is proposed (optional, no forced grouping, no spliting community based on VR, sharding based on system we know from dungs, normal and vet (or debuff but that is more prefered by ppl who don't want difficulty at all)).
Multiple. Times. In. Almost. Every. Thread.

The game is still not in a state that would allow it to have optional vet difficulty.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

She didn't say anything about vet overland optional proposal in that post.

The person she replied to proposed a solution that mobs scale as you level, which would make it mandatory.

She remembered having scaling mandatory mobs from One Tamriel and said that type of difficulty solution made her quit.

This exactly.