Overland Content Feedback Thread

Hallothiel

Was asking as on console & so don’t know if/how much they help towards finding things ‘too easy’.

Maya_Nur

Hallothiel wrote: »

Was asking as on console & so don’t know if/how much they help towards finding things ‘too easy’.

No special addons except ActionDurationReminder I have soloed 90% of WBs with heavy atacks as main damage ability I know it is kinda lazy, but still easy anyway)

Sylvermynx

True. I have a lot of addons but NONE of them make anything easier in overland. I don't use combat addons at all AAMOF, nothing but QOL for UI and crafting.

Reese_Flamelocks

I haven't read many of the replies, though I plan to, but I thought I'd throw my opinion in with the lot.

Like many games, there needs to be gradation of danger as one ventures further from civilized areas. Quests should take the player deeper and deeper into the "wilderness" which fleshes out the world. Throwing in easily avoidable stagnant WBs does not do this. At some point a player should have to realize, hey if I really want to finish this quest I need a friend. Or, they could sneak it (because everyone can sneak in this game), which still emphasizes the immediacy of danger of a feral world. Instanced group content does not establish the true feeling of being in a living breathing world.

I think one of the better examples I have seen is LOTRO.

Vaoh

LonePirate wrote: »

For all of these people wanting challenging overland content, where were you back in 2014 when this game went live and during May, June and early July of that year, the VR Gold zones (and to a lesser extent the VR Silver zones) along with most of Craglorn, were dead zones that nobody played? We've already been down this road and the public voted No by not playing the challenging overland content.

Where were they? If you understand the route this game took it’ll make sense tbh.

April 2014 PC launch:
ESO was full price + $15 monthly sub and the “free” month had issues working. There were an unbelievable amount of bugs, bots, the great AoE Caps mess up, Vet Ranks ugly grind, duplication glitches, hackers..... most people played until their initial subs ended and quit. ESO dropped its sub in March 2015 to avoid dying out - those who would have quested in Cadwell’s Silver/Gold were long gone or played less. Craglorn though lol, that place was ignored due to terrible design decisions.

June 2015 Console Launch::
It takes months to quest Cadwell’s Silver and much longer to access Cadwell’s Gold. Most of us don’t rush. Can confirm Cadwell’s Silver was absolutely flooded on console less than a year after launch. Cadwell’s Gold was emptier due to the Vet Rank grind. Craglorn is a separate issue - the *required grouping* feature. We had no text chat for console to even attempt to group, and low rewards+unreasonable difficulty+faction locks certainly didn’t help.

I could go on but it was not a difficulty issue. There are so many other factors. These forums would not be so full of people asking for increased difficulty enough for the mods to create this thread if it was not requested.

Vaoh

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for this.

Difficulty Slider

Debilitation Potency
“Apply Debilitation onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Increases your Damage Taken, reduces your Damage Dealt, and reduces your Healing Taken by the following percentage.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Allied Healing
“Apply Debilitation II onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Reduces the amount of Healing Dealt you provide to your pets and allies.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Difficulty Scenario
“Determines the scenarios in which Debilitation and Debilitation II are deactivated. Note: Both effects will already deactivate in Duels, PvP areas, and any content which has a Veteran counterpart.”
Slider List: None, Public Dungeons, World Events, World Bosses, (any mix of the three).

No extra rewards. No need to swap out all of your hard earned gear/skills/CP. This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

Sylvermynx

@Vaoh - that's an interesting take....

SilverBride

@Vaoh

Excellent ideas. I love how they address the real issue of power creep rather than fixing something that isn't broken.

Red_Feather

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for this.

Difficulty Slider

Debilitation Potency
“Apply Debilitation onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Increases your Damage Taken, reduces your Damage Dealt, and reduces your Healing Taken by the following percentage.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Allied Healing
“Apply Debilitation II onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Reduces the amount of Healing Dealt you provide to your pets and allies.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Difficulty Scenario
“Determines the scenarios in which Debilitation and Debilitation II are deactivated. Note: Both effects will already deactivate in Duels, PvP areas, and any content which has a Veteran counterpart.”
Slider List: None, Public Dungeons, World Events, World Bosses, (any mix of the three).

No extra rewards. No need to swap out all of your hard earned gear/skills/CP. This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

That will make the overland even more boring because then it will be both slow and easy without any incentive to do so. I made a post on the previous page to help make the overland more challenging and thoughtful.

NeeScrolls

Reese_Flamelocks wrote: »

I haven't read many of the replies, though I plan to,

, there needs to be gradation of danger as one ventures further from civilized areas. Quests should take the player deeper and deeper into the "wilderness" which fleshes out the world.

That ^ is exactly the type of example i was suggesting in my earlier posts (around page 32 & such , if you do end up reading thru rest of this thread) .

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for Difficulty Slider

You aren't the 1st person to propose that 'slider' idea , so it's def. worth considering & discussing.

However, i don't believe it's necessarily within standard human-nature of gamers to purposely intentionally make things more difficult as their choice (at least, not in a MMORPG) . In fact, much to coding Developer chagrin, it's typically proven to be just the opposite...and constant. (aka exploits ) .

Vaoh wrote: »

This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

If this entire thread is any indication, it's that there is more than one "only way" AND that rarely if ever does anything ever make "everyone happy" .

Vaoh

Red_Feather wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for this.

Difficulty Slider

Debilitation Potency
“Apply Debilitation onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Increases your Damage Taken, reduces your Damage Dealt, and reduces your Healing Taken by the following percentage.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Allied Healing
“Apply Debilitation II onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Reduces the amount of Healing Dealt you provide to your pets and allies.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Difficulty Scenario
“Determines the scenarios in which Debilitation and Debilitation II are deactivated. Note: Both effects will already deactivate in Duels, PvP areas, and any content which has a Veteran counterpart.”
Slider List: None, Public Dungeons, World Events, World Bosses, (any mix of the three).

No extra rewards. No need to swap out all of your hard earned gear/skills/CP. This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

That will make the overland even more boring because then it will be both slow and easy without any incentive to do so. I made a post on the previous page to help make the overland more challenging and thoughtful.

I assure you 99% more damage taken, 99% less damage done, 99% less healing taken will not be “easy” lol. And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty. The new option is for fun/difficulty in overland, not to increase rewards or hurt other’s experience.

I read over your post, the idea just doesn’t fit for a game like this imo It would be cool for an FPS game with a linear story mode. Reminds me of how Halo 3 had skulls you could activate to increase/decrease difficulty in special ways.

NeeScrolls

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

Reese_Flamelocks

NeeScrolls wrote: »

However, i don't believe it's necessarily within standard human-nature of gamers to purposely intentionally make things more difficult as their choice (at least, not in a MMORPG) . In fact, much to coding Developer chagrin, it's typically proven to be just the opposite...and constant. (aka exploits )

I agree. It is far too artificial and not visceral enough.

I've thought about wearing all white gear when I do non-dungeon content, but it really doesn't elicit any emotion in me as a player because I am choosing to do it. Plus, if I'm running around with other players overland and we defeat a mob, it's not like we're going to think, wow, we just defeated a hard mob, the other player(s) are going to think, wow, I'm playing with a gimp. Spontaneity does not exist overland, which, if we recall was GW2's whole schtick when it was released. (And no, I do not want to go play GW2.)

To me this whole debate comes down whether a player wants a Dangerous World verse an Amusement Park. It's players preference. ESO is a great game, probably the best MMO out right now, and I, personally, just wish it was more Dangerous World-leaning.

ESO is a playground, not a dirty scrappy football pitch. Maybe there is an in-between.

Vaoh

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

The fundamental difference though is that for the majority, Overland is fine as is. It should not change. We also can’t ask the Devs to take on a massive rebalancing/create tons of new mechanics because that is not reasonable at all.

This leaves us with one option that suits everyone - artificial difficulty.
- Overland is unchanged
- Difficulty from easy to nearly impossible is added, without the need to run around naked or throw out all of your hard-earned gear. You can go between Overland and Group Dungeons with no changes
- It is a trivial task for Devs to implement - a debuff with a few extra conditions regarding where it is active or not (similar to Battle Spirit)

Just my opinion on it ofc but that’s how I feel.

SilverBride

Reese_Flamelocks wrote: »

To me this whole debate comes down whether a player wants a Dangerous World verse an Amusement Park. It's players preference. ESO is a great game, probably the best MMO out right now, and I, personally, just wish it was more Dangerous World-leaning.

ESO is a playground, not a dirty scrappy football pitch. Maybe there is an in-between.

There is no in between. Increasing the difficulty of overland even a little would be detrimental to a lot of players. There are way more players who aren't vet geared and experienced end game players than there are. Overland is the story and is exactly as it should be for what it is.

Overland is not too easy... some players are just too strong. This is the only problem, and this is where any solution should be directed. This is why the solution offered by @Vaoh is perfect because it addresses the real issue.

Veteran overland, optional or not, is not feasible, so solutions that only affect the players who choose to use them are the only reasonable solutions.

NeeScrolls

Vaoh wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

for the majority, Overland is fine as is. It should not change.

Yep i hear ya and as i recently stated in my earlier post, i'm tending to resign myself more & more with just keeping the current overland status-quo.

Vaoh wrote: »

We also can’t ask the Devs to take on a massive rebalancing/create tons of new mechanics because that is not reasonable at all.

Well, as paying subscribers, we most certainly can. Doesn't mean they have to listen lol . Besides, if you read my earlier post suggestion (page 32 & such) , you'd see that the nuance i speak of certainly wouldn't constitute "tons" ...but rather more like tweaks.

Anyways, it's clear a bunch of the same posters (myself included) are starting to echo-repeat ourselves here, so i'm gonna go back to playing ESO for a bit. Excited to start a certain new map zone's , well, overland content.

spartaxoxo

Vaoh wrote: »

I could go on but it was not a difficulty issue. There are so many other factors. These forums would not be so full of people asking for increased difficulty enough for the mods to create this thread if it was not requested.

The existence of other factors does not mean it was not a difficulty issue. Many, many people explicitly cited difficulty as a primary issue back then. It was a common piece of feedback.

Vaoh

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

for the majority, Overland is fine as is. It should not change.

Yep i hear ya and as i recently stated in my earlier post, i'm tending to resign myself more & more with just keeping the current overland status-quo.

Vaoh wrote: »

We also can’t ask the Devs to take on a massive rebalancing/create tons of new mechanics because that is not reasonable at all.

Well, as paying subscribers, we most certainly can. Doesn't mean they have to listen lol . Besides, if you read my earlier post suggestion (page 32 & such) , you'd see that the nuance i speak of certainly wouldn't constitute "tons" ...but rather more like tweaks.

Anyways, it's clear a bunch of the same posters (myself included) are starting to echo-repeat ourselves here, so i'm gonna go back to playing ESO for a bit. Excited to start a certain new map zone's , well, overland content.

Long threads always end up like that I’m really curious where the next chapter is going to take us!

I try to quest slow and enjoy the stories - so far Wrothgar and Clockwork City are tied as my favorites.

Red_Feather

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

Yeah I feel the same way. I wanted to suggest something that made things more interesting. I don't know why anyone would think lowering damage and health makes combat more interesting. I think they will argue for it until they get it and see players complain it's boring.

Red_Feather

SilverBride wrote: »

Reese_Flamelocks wrote: »

To me this whole debate comes down whether a player wants a Dangerous World verse an Amusement Park. It's players preference. ESO is a great game, probably the best MMO out right now, and I, personally, just wish it was more Dangerous World-leaning.

ESO is a playground, not a dirty scrappy football pitch. Maybe there is an in-between.

There is no in between. Increasing the difficulty of overland even a little would be detrimental to a lot of players. There are way more players who aren't vet geared and experienced end game players than there are. Overland is the story and is exactly as it should be for what it is.

Overland is not too easy... some players are just too strong. This is the only problem, and this is where any solution should be directed. This is why the solution offered by @Vaoh is perfect because it addresses the real issue.

Veteran overland, optional or not, is not feasible, so solutions that only affect the players who choose to use them are the only reasonable solutions.

Have you ever looked at my suggestion that I keep repeating. It in no way affects you ever. Not one bit.

Red_Feather

I've come to realize this topic is pointless. It's the same people arguing back and forth for things that will never satisfy anyone because they don't even know what the other 'side' is asking for. And the only people who do listen and suggest something mean nothing amongst this bickering. It's pointless.

Vaoh

@Red_Feather People are simply discussing their thoughts and opinions on a forum. At the end of the day we all feel a certain way about this topic and try to make sense of it the best we can.

I don’t think there was arguing here but either way it really isn’t a serious subject lol Have a good day.

spartaxoxo

Red_Feather wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

And if slow = boring then you shouldn’t want higher difficulty.

Well , 'higher difficulty' shouldn't be so over-simplified to just strictly equate to mere STATS increase.

Something can have 1 HP , yet complex mechanics & dynamic circumstances, which could = greater challenge AND fun ( imho ) thereby not necessarily feel "slow boring" .

As always, however, the real difficulty for coders & players is: nuance

Yeah I feel the same way. I wanted to suggest something that made things more interesting. I don't know why anyone would think lowering damage and health makes combat more interesting. I think they will argue for it until they get it and see players complain it's boring.

Because it makes the existing mechanics more interesting by giving them threat, and also ensures you actually see it.

Hallothiel

There has been decent discussions and some common ground found. (Even though there is still no 100% agreement on what precise parts of Overland should be included 😁)

The most basic thing is that this has to be optional.

There is also quite a bit of agreement that the big bad boss of the main questlines could be instanced, and so have an optional hard mode that can be triggered like in vet dungeons. (This would not be too hard for devs to do).

For the rest of the suggestions, I do think @Vaoh has good ones, that would not be disruptive to all players nor be too complicated or time-consuming for devs to do - and that is very relevant, as some of the other ideas would not be cost or time-effective.

For example, creating an copy of all overland but making it harder would just not be profitable.(& that’s the bottom line)

And making Overland get harder the further out you went would upset many players as would not be optional, and would mean parts of the map might not be accessible for them - which would annoy paying customers as would be a radical change.

I appreciate that people have loads of ideas, and want ESO to be more like this game or that - but sometimes you have to accept the limitations & work with what’s feasible. (Personally I would love to explore Tamriel like you can in the Assassins Creed world but that’s just not possible. And I can accept that & get my parkour hit from a different game. As one game can’t be everything to everyone!)

Tornaad

Due to my experience running 4 player dungeons this weekend, I have a little more feedback on this topic.
Prior to this weekend, I had avoided veteran group content. I was trying to go through all of the dungeons on normal before going through on veteran.

I learned a few things while running dungeons this weekend that might also apply to this discussion.
Even as a DPS it is a lot easier to get into dungeons when you run veteran content. I was generally able to get into a dungeon within 4 to 10 minutes. When I have tried running group dungeons in the past on normal it would sometimes take me upwards of 40 minutes to get into a dungeon.

This weekend when I would queue up for a pledge, I would queue into both the normal version of that dungeon, and the veteran dungeon. In every case, I got into the veteran dungeon before I got into the normal dungeon.

This tells me that the player base of ESO dramatically prefers the challenge that veteran content offers. Which if that applies over to the overland content (and I see no reason why it wouldn't) then you would likely find a lot more player satisfaction from harder overland content, and (if my experience is anything to go off) if you look at the rate of players running veteran content versus group content, you can likely find usage data showing player preference.

Most likely, I am one of the slowest people to switch from normal to veteran. Most people likely want to switch as fast as possible. Which would then mean, if you gave players the option of controlling the difficulty of the overland experience, then you could likely improve player satisfaction with the game.

Maya_Nur

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for this.

Difficulty Slider

Debilitation Potency
“Apply Debilitation onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Increases your Damage Taken, reduces your Damage Dealt, and reduces your Healing Taken by the following percentage.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Allied Healing
“Apply Debilitation II onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Reduces the amount of Healing Dealt you provide to your pets and allies.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Difficulty Scenario
“Determines the scenarios in which Debilitation and Debilitation II are deactivated. Note: Both effects will already deactivate in Duels, PvP areas, and any content which has a Veteran counterpart.”
Slider List: None, Public Dungeons, World Events, World Bosses, (any mix of the three).

No extra rewards. No need to swap out all of your hard earned gear/skills/CP. This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

Looks like discussion went on another lap, isn't it? I don't want repeat all things I wrote earlier, so forgive me my self-copy/paste...)

About why debuff is a better-not-to-do-at-all :

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Taking a zone away from the general playerbase and making it too difficult for them ever utilize is not the least bit fair and would absolutely divide the playerbase, if there was any playerbase left to be divided.

The only fair and reasonable solution is a debuff. I know some players don't like this idea but there has not been a solid reason given as to why this is not acceptable.

We have.

It's not an acceptable solution as it's cheap and will be underutilised. Going around the world debuffing yourself, while others can just press an ability or 2 and kill the mob(s) your attacking ruins this. I want to see delve bosses with 1m HP, group delve, public dungeon and quest bosses with 2-4m HP, mobs with triple-quadruple the HP, want mobs etc. to hurt.

I want the challenge GIVEN to me, rather than me nerfing myself to seek a challenge, to me it's not logical. People would just not bother, and again: others who aren't debuffed will and can ruin it. I'd love to see people ask for help and ask for help with content, rather than say "derp i debuffed myself halp plox" because people would end up saying to undo the debuff.

Nty. Veteran scaled content please. I don't want nerf food lol.

How is it cheap? If you mean the cost to implement it then yes it would be much cheaper than veteran overland, which is what would be underutilized and expensive.

Why does the challenge have to be given to you with harder mobs if debuffing yourself has the same end result?

What does it matter if others who don't use the debuff can quickly kill mobs? It's about the player wanting more of a challenge for themselves not what others are doing.

Debuff is the only reasonable solution that gives the player harder fights without negatively affecting the rest of the playerbase.

Human psychology. IRL normal situation looks like that: person reaches new height and then moves to the next one. What you suggest is similar to tie your legs and be happy you can move by doing short jumps. Please, understand we are also deserve our portion of desired content as anyone else.

About why overlant is NOT ok as it is:

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration!

Wanting to save a few gold is not a valid reason for a major rework of the base game.

[snip] Anyway the point of example was not that I want to die easily to save some gold, but about enemies who aren't trying to kill player while it is their only purpose!

[edited for baiting]

About why trials and solo arenas are not enough for those who want vOL:

Maya_Nur wrote:

Oh my... No, I'm just saying that 25m health is NOT hard, it is stuffy and unrealistic. By the way, it is a group content and I don't like it, no offence friend I prefer solo, and even not doing a rotation (just lazy) I did not experience any resistance in Craglorn's WB or dungeons

Some good and bad options for vOL:

Maya_Nur wrote: »

I'm happy to see so many great ideas for vet overland here! I just wish to add a little bit more facets to those diamonds, so there are variants of how vOL can be implemented:

1. Much love edition:
— Overland HAS NO difficulty toggle BUT there are various types of mobs, from weak wolves to deadly mosters; from moderately dangerous bandits to high-skilled and well-geared criminal masterminds; from single enemies along the road to packs of dozens in lairs.
— Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
— Instaned delves (either solo or with party)
— Progressive difficulty to the story quests chain with its climax in final battle.
— Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
— Great rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple), houseguests/companions (characters who have participated in the story), furniture pieces, accessories etc.

2. Love edition:
— Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
— Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
— Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
— Better rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple).

3. At least something edition:
— Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
— Buff enemies with HP and/or strength, same for story bosses.

4. Better not to do edition:
— Debuff player.

spartaxoxo

Zuboko wrote: »

Even as a DPS it is a lot easier to get into dungeons when you run veteran content. I was generally able to get into a dungeon within 4 to 10 minutes. When I have tried running group dungeons in the past on normal it would sometimes take me upwards of 40 minutes to get into a dungeon.

This weekend when I would queue up for a pledge, I would queue into both the normal version of that dungeon, and the veteran dungeon. In every case, I got into the veteran dungeon before I got into the normal dungeon.

This tells me that the player base of ESO dramatically prefers the challenge that veteran content offers.

The higher queue times for normal is from more people queueing dps in the normal queue.

Maya_Nur wrote: »

About why debuff is a better-not-to-do-at-all

Debuffs are a very common and popular difficulty adjustment throughout gaming, especially in RPGs. People who use them enjoy them because they add challenge to encounters they may have bested before by making old challenges into something new.

They are moreso akin to doing one-handed push-ups. Most people may not see the point in doing them, but there is many who do like the extra challenge and bragging rights that comes from being able to do push-ups with one hand tied behind their back. It's a matter of taste whether or not people like them, rather than it being intrinsic to human psychology to dislike it.

They remain fairly common throughout gaming and even in modding where people go out of their way to add them into their games. This is true even of the Elder Scrolls Series.

Maya_Nur

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Even as a DPS it is a lot easier to get into dungeons when you run veteran content. I was generally able to get into a dungeon within 4 to 10 minutes. When I have tried running group dungeons in the past on normal it would sometimes take me upwards of 40 minutes to get into a dungeon.

This weekend when I would queue up for a pledge, I would queue into both the normal version of that dungeon, and the veteran dungeon. In every case, I got into the veteran dungeon before I got into the normal dungeon.

This tells me that the player base of ESO dramatically prefers the challenge that veteran content offers.

The higher queue times for normal is from more people queueing dps in the normal queue.

Maya_Nur wrote: »

About why debuff is a better-not-to-do-at-all

Debuffs are a very common and popular difficulty adjustment throughout gaming, especially in RPGs. People who use them enjoy them because they add challenge to encounters they may have bested before by making old challenges into something new.

They are moreso akin to doing one-handed push-ups. Most people may not see the point in doing them, but there is many who do like the extra challenge and bragging rights that comes from being able to do push-ups with one hand tied behind their back. It's a matter of taste whether or not people like them, rather than it being intrinsic to psychology to dislike it.

They remain fairly common throughout gaming and even in modding where people go out of their way to add them into their games.

Sorry, but it doesn't count as an argument. In *one country* it is common to litter on the streets, beaches and in the house entrances, but it doesn't solve the problem of garbage disposal.

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Even as a DPS it is a lot easier to get into dungeons when you run veteran content. I was generally able to get into a dungeon within 4 to 10 minutes. When I have tried running group dungeons in the past on normal it would sometimes take me upwards of 40 minutes to get into a dungeon.

This weekend when I would queue up for a pledge, I would queue into both the normal version of that dungeon, and the veteran dungeon. In every case, I got into the veteran dungeon before I got into the normal dungeon.

This tells me that the player base of ESO dramatically prefers the challenge that veteran content offers.

The higher queue times for normal is from more people queueing dps in the normal queue.

Maya_Nur wrote: »

About why debuff is a better-not-to-do-at-all

Debuffs are a very common and popular difficulty adjustment throughout gaming, especially in RPGs. People who use them enjoy them because they add challenge to encounters they may have bested before by making old challenges into something new.

They are moreso akin to doing one-handed push-ups. Most people may not see the point in doing them, but there is many who do like the extra challenge and bragging rights that comes from being able to do push-ups with one hand tied behind their back. It's a matter of taste whether or not people like them, rather than it being intrinsic to psychology to dislike it.

They remain fairly common throughout gaming and even in modding where people go out of their way to add them into their games.

Sorry, but it doesn't count as an argument. In *one country* it is common to litter on the streets, beaches and in the house entrances, but it doesn't solve the problem of garbage disposal.

False Equivalency. Litter doesn't solve problem garbage disposal. Debuffs do add challenge.

They are popular in gaming specifically because they add challenge.

This is not to my taste =/= this mechanically cannot work.

They can work, they do work, and they are a common solution.

Edit:

It's like you and I are both wanting to make a pizza. You want to add Pepperoni and I want to add Ham and Pineapples to the pizza.

To say that Pepperoni Pizza is more popular than Hawaiian pizza is obviously correct. The difference isn't even close.

To say that Hawaiian Pizza isn't pizza, that it's human psychology to hate pinapples on pizza, that putting pineapples on pizza is a horrible affront to pizza or any other such type of argument would be false. It is silly hyperbole, not a real argument. Hawaiian Pizza is Pizza, period.

Enough people like Hawaiian Pizza that it's a common specialty pizza at many pizza parlors. It has ardent supporters. And they obviously really like pineapple on their pizza. They like it so much they are generally willing to pay a little more for it.

The difference is NOT whether or not these options are both pizza. The difference is a matter of taste.

edit 2:

We can extend these Pizza metaphor a little more actually.

The reason I want to serve Hawaiian Pizza over Pepperoni is we are hosting a Super Bowl party. The local stores are all out of Pepperoni. We have the option of going out of town to get some Pepperoni, but we have Ham and Pineapple in the fridge right now. If we go to get the Pepperoni, we'll have to miss out on the first quarter of the Super Bowl. Some of our guests probably won't show up if we aren't there for the whole game, and watch the Super Bowl at a different friends house. We'll all be watching the Super Bowl together, but they'll be in another house.

You want to get the Pepperoni anyway because you want all our guests at the party to have a good time. You know that everyone will enjoy the Pepperoni while some won't eat the Hawaiian because they hate pineapple on pizza, or will eat it but won't enjoy it nearly as much as the Pepperoni. You think it's more important that all of our guests at the party enjoy the food than see the whole game. You're unconcerned if a couple of people watch at their house, as we're all friends and can see each other whenever and everyone can watch the super bowl.

I want to make the Hawaiian because I don't want any of our guests to miss out on the festivities and I don't think that missing part of the Super Bowl is worth having a slightly better pizza. Therefore, I want to use the Ham and Pineapple because it's the cheapest option that keeps our party all together. I know that not everyone likes Hawaiian pizza but don't really mind that someone won't enjoy the pizza because at least we'll all be together at the party having fun in other ways, and that enough of the guests do like this pizza that it will get ate.

In other words, it's merely different priorities.

Hallothiel

I learned a few things while running dungeons this weekend that might also apply to this discussion.
Even as a DPS it is a lot easier to get into dungeons when you run veteran content. I was generally able to get into a dungeon within 4 to 10 minutes. When I have tried running group dungeons in the past on normal it would sometimes take me upwards of 40 minutes to get into a dungeon.

This tells me that the player base of ESO dramatically prefers the challenge that veteran content offers.

Um, no.

There is a shorter queue time for dps/dds on vet as fewer people want to run vet!