Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

I already addressed that false equivalency.

There is a difference between forcing something on people that they don't want and did not request to get a result that they actively despise versus giving someone an option to do something they don't like to get a result that they do want and asked for.

Vet Overland players want to have the experience where if they don't say dodge a bosses heavy attack they will die. This can be accomplished in many different ways, one of which is choosing to self nerf.

People who like normal Overland do NOT want to engage in that kind of battle. So you're forcing them to engage it in anyway at all times by forcibly removing progress they have earned.

That is not the same thing.

But couldn’t “false equivalency” applied to complains and requests for vet overland?
A lot of feedback I read in this or other threads are touching on more than just difficulty, yet common reply is just self nerf or watch for other game while missing other points entirely.

No. There is a lot of different solutions offered. Some people expect the entire thing to be reworked with all new mechanics. Some say they would be okay with just a health buff to existing bosses. Some don't offer any solutions at all but just want a more engaging experience where things like block and roll dodge matter. Some expect new cosmetics, achievements, etc. Some would be satisfied with just getting blue gear instead of green. Some say it should be around the difficulty or Craglorn, some say it should he higher.

There are some things all the different requests tend to have in common is that they want to have to engage in the mechanics of the game such as blocking, roll dodging, etc. That they want to fight to last longer than a second. And they'd prefer it be in their own instance. Debuffs meets most of that checklist.

On top of that, offering your own solution that meets most of those points is not equating anything. It is different than trying to suggest something you don't even believe in who's only value to the other side of the idea is take away things they like while offering absolutely nothing in return.

Also multiple people in this thread have told you that they are CP players who already have trouble with overland. So arguing that forcibly nerfing them by taking their cp wouldn't make it hard for them is disingenuous.

Edit:

Beyond that, fact of the matter is that I entered this thread wanting harder difficulty in Overland, but also wanted it to be easily opted out of for my own personal reasons which I have shared before. And you guys keep insisting that my opinion is somehow being equated as the same thing as yours even though I have said it's not. I have pointed to the differences on multiple occassions.

It's less dev time, it doesn't separate players, it's more modular, you don't get special drops, etc.

summ0004

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

Its almost at the level where the combat feels pointless and it may aswell go down the same route as those janky korean FTP MMOs where is auto combats for you, just leaving you to play it as a walking simulator.

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

jaws343

summ0004 wrote: »

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

Its almost at the level where the combat feels pointless and it may aswell go down the same route as those janky korean FTP MMOs where is auto combats for you, just leaving you to play it as a walking simulator.

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

Trivial to you. Easy to you. But I still see players dying to delve bosses. We still have players calling out for help for story bosses in zone.

At a certain point with any game, you just have to accept that your understanding of the games mechanics has surpassed that game's ability to offer a challenge to you. That is perfectly ok.

The problem is, they are never going to be able to balance a vet instance of overland. Because it will always either be too easy to too hard for some and will never be able to strike a balance there. And at some point, even that challenge becomes trivial or easy again for those same players and they request more.

It's just not feasible or realistic.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

Debuffs are like really common in rpgs though. Like even within the Elder Scrolls franchise, but also other rpgs. Because while they do take power away, they greatly enhance the roleplaying aspect of the game by increasing immersion. They make you reconsider old encounters, make everything feel more like a threat, etc. They are also some of the most popular and consistent mods out there for rpgs across many different games. Shoot survival mode in Skyrim's anniversary edition started out as mod that included a series of debuffs placed on the player that they have to counteract with items such as if they get too hungry, they starve to death. I believe there is more to it than that but that part was certainly a major selling point.

So I don't think it's at all a fair criticism that debuffs go against RPG elements whatsoever.

I think it's more accurate to say it goes against your personal power fantasy because it requires you to turn off power you had before and that to you is too immersion breaking to make up for all the other benefits it brings. Because buffing the mob to take say 10k damage from instead of 25 is no different than nerfing you so that you only do 10k damage to the boss from a pure functionality standpoint. Which also means from an engaging fight standpoint, it is literally the exact same thing.

The difference is whether or not it disrupts your personal power fantasy, the drops, and that one doesn't require a separate instance and the other does. Not in it's RPG bonafides. Again, it is pretty common in RPGs and even something players will add in themselves through modding.

summ0004 wrote: »

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

This is subjective. There are multiple players in this thread that do not find current overland trivial. They die and everything and have to put in effort to kill things. I am not one of them but they are in this thread and in this game.

summ0004

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

Debuffs are like really common in rpgs though. Like even within the Elder Scrolls franchise, but also other rpgs. Because while they do take power away, they greatly enhance the roleplaying aspect of the game by increasing immersion. They make you reconsider old encounters, make everything feel more like a threat, etc. They are also some of the most popular and consistent mods out there for rpgs across many different games. Shoot survival mode in Skyrim's anniversary edition started out as mod that included a series of debuffs placed on the player that they have to counteract with items such as if they get too hungry, they starve to death. I believe there is more to it than that but that part was certainly a major selling point.

So I don't think it's at all a fair criticism that debuffs go against RPG elements whatsoever.

I think it's more accurate to say it goes against your personal power fantasy because it requires you to turn off power you had before and that to you is too immersion breaking to make up for all the other benefits it brings. Because buffing the mob to take say 10k damage from instead of 25 is no different than nerfing you so that you only do 10k damage to the boss from a pure functionality standpoint. Which also means from an engaging fight standpoint, it is literally the exact same thing.

The difference is whether or not it disrupts your personal power fantasy, the drops, and that one doesn't require a separate instance and the other does. Not in it's RPG bonafides. Again, it is pretty common in RPGs and even something players will add in themselves through modding.

summ0004 wrote: »

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

This is subjective. There are multiple players in this thread that do not find current overland trivial. They die and everything and have to put in effort to kill things. I am not one of them but they are in this thread and in this game.

I can be open minded to the concept of the debuff and see your point but I believe there are other options that I would rather see to fix the problems such as scaling mobs or difficulty scrolls in the instanced part of the game.

[snip] But should the game be tuned to the lowest denominator, or set to a moderate level with the offer of some help for those with difficulties?

As for power fantasy I can asure you I dont have one, I dont play meta and o 100K dps or anything like that and I actually vouched for the mobs scaling and the option to disable CPs. In fact I wouldnt even mind if CPs were taken out of the game completely to reduce the powercreep. I just want to be able to enjoy combat in the open world and be able to quest whilst having something that resembles combat like other RPG/MMO games. This would at least entice me to purchase some of the chapters which at the moment represents poor value for me.

It is a shame as ESO potentially is the only MMO currently that holds any interest for me and has so much more potential that I feel is being held back by rigid beliefs and ideas that are now starting to feel stale in the light of new competition around the corner.

[Edit for Hate Speech.]

SilverBride

I'm not against veteran overland because my character is weak or I am unable to handle more challenging mobs. I don't find overland a struggle at all and I like it that way.

I like feeling strong and being the hero. I like that I'm strong enough to help others with World Bosses when they ask in zone. I find it immersive to come in and save the NPCs asking for my help without struggling.

Overland doesn't need fixed. It's functioning just like it's supposed to.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

[snip] But should the game be tuned to the lowest denominator, or set to a moderate level with the offer of some help for those with difficulties?

Remember the quests also serve as the tutorial level content. It is intended to be played by everyone. That is why the basic overland is so easy. And yes some people have bad internet, lack of skill, age, etc. There's zero reason they should be excluded and forced out of a game that has catered to them for years, especially when there are few options on the market for these people while most games are harder. It's like most games fall somewhere in between something like Demon Souls and something like this one on the opposite end of the scale, but that doesn't mean those games should all be forced to be the same thing as every other game.

As for power fantasy I can asure you I dont have one, I dont play meta and o 100K dps or anything like that and I actually vouched for the mobs scaling and the option to disable CPs. In fact I wouldnt even mind if CPs were taken out of the game completely to reduce the powercreep. I just want to be able to enjoy combat in the open world and be able to quest whilst having something that resembles combat like other RPG/MMO games. This would at least entice me to purchase some of the chapters which at the moment represents poor value for me.

I don't mean it to mean that you're chasing power. I mean it in a more design sense. The type of challenge you want to have and the kind of character you want to make, and the way the games design classes/characters/etc to invoke these perceptions. All players have one, and have different things that enhance or detract from their immersion in it. But as big part of it is perception, it also has some subjective elements and isn't purely about the actual mechanics.

A good example of that is what I was saying about debuffs vs buffs to mobs. Like a 50k heavy attack from a boss that you have to roll dodge is a 50k heavy attack from a boss you have to roll dodge.

But if you have to dodge it because you were debuffed and you'd survive it if you weren't you might think "ugh I'm so weak I can't even block that?" Whereas if you got it from the boss being buffed you might think "whoa that boss is so strong! I've gotten better this is awesome" Meanwhile other people's power fantasies may look at debuffs as yet another challenge for their character to overcome and be like "I can beat this boss with one hand tied behind my back! This is awesome!" And yet another person may have the power fantasy of running around in god mode and wanting to slaughter everything easily. For them the one shot may feel cheap.

Player perception to the 50k heavy might be different, but the 50k heavy is a 50k heavy. It's not actually leading to a difference in engagement, only the perception of it. This perception is what I call a power fantasy because I saw a dev discuss stuff like this (but not exactly this) as power fantasy in another game and most of the time people catch my meaning. But it's not like the official term and I don't know the official term. So maybe this concept is called something else in the games you played. If you know a more accurate term I am all ears as I'm not a game dev.

You're by far not the only one who wouldn't enjoy the debuff in this thread. And it being against your "power fantasy" is valid. Immersion is a real issue, it's just also a matter of taste.

It is a shame as ESO potentially is the only MMO currently that holds any interest for me and has so much more potential that I feel is being held back by rigid beliefs and ideas that are now starting to feel stale in the light of new competition around the corner.

Eh. I wouldn't mind some increased difficulty that was truly optional myself actually. But I also think it's good there are so many good games out there that serve so many different types of audiences. One thing I really love is that I can play this game with my disabled family member anytime I want. He's much older than we started occasionally playing together and the number of games we can play and both enjoy have gone down. I can also play this game when my hands just can't handle the harder content or I want to destress and relax. And yet when I'm feeling fantasic and playing with higher skilled people or alone, I can also go and play content that's truly challenging. It's like I have both Journey and Demon Souls all in one game. I'm always getting something done in the game no matter the challenge level or person I am playing with. I find that not just fun or relaxing, but beautiful.

I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't want to lose that aspect. That's why I don't like the idea of just forcibly scaling the mobs up. I wouldn't mind a slider that didn't separate the playerbase.

summ0004

I certainly dont want to have veteran dungeon type difficulty in overland where im struggling against wolves either, so that isnt something I want in the game as some others have proposed by having nightmare like difficulty.

But I wish to enjoy the game in overland and would really enjoy doing the quests if I was able to increase some aspects of the difficulty.

As it currently stands it seems unless ZOS does something to address this, then there is no point me doing the quests unless I roll another brand new character which I dont wish to do as I am attached to my main character from a roleplay perspective.

As it is obvious ZOS is not going to implement any sort of change it looks like there is not really any incentive for me to buy any chapters and play through the quests I havent completed in the old zones.

This is a shame beacuase ESO is currently the best MMO out there but could be made so much better if it catered for more diversity.

Until or if anything changes I guess I will have to wait for the next MMO which may cater for my needs.

summ0004

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not against veteran overland because my character is weak or I am unable to handle more challenging mobs. I don't find overland a struggle at all and I like it that way.

I like feeling strong and being the hero. I like that I'm strong enough to help others with World Bosses when they ask in zone. I find it immersive to come in and save the NPCs asking for my help without struggling.

Overland doesn't need fixed. It's functioning just like it's supposed to.

Being the hero doesnt mean you have to kill all things with ease. The heroes in fiction normally have epic fights with the end of story villain and it actually makes the setting feel more heroic as a result.

Of course you can feel strong against wolves and skeevers, but for elite mobs, quest bosses and end of story bosses it feels anticlimatic if they are too easy for many of us. I understand you may like it easy all the way through, but for many others we at least enjoy something that resembles a fight.

What if Luke Skywalker had walked in with his light saber and one shotted Darth vader in return of the jedi, it would hardly feel heroic.

But its obvious now which direction ZOS wishes to move the game and they seem to cater to either super casual solo play or meta players that play vet trials. So it seems that this game doesnt offer anything for players like myself in its current state which is a shame.

If anything changes on ZOS direction then I will purchase the chapters and play through the remaining old quest areas, but until then I will have to look elsewhere as I have run out of content suitable for me currently.

Its been educational for me to share some ideas and I wish you the best in your adventures.

Toxic_Hemlock

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not against veteran overland because my character is weak or I am unable to handle more challenging mobs. I don't find overland a struggle at all and I like it that way.

I like feeling strong and being the hero. I like that I'm strong enough to help others with World Bosses when they ask in zone. I find it immersive to come in and save the NPCs asking for my help without struggling.

Overland doesn't need fixed. It's functioning just like it's supposed to.

Being the hero doesnt mean you have to kill all things with ease. The heroes in fiction normally have epic fights with the end of story villain and it actually makes the setting feel more heroic as a result.

Of course you can feel strong against wolves and skeevers, but for elite mobs, quest bosses and end of story bosses it feels anticlimatic if they are too easy for many of us. I understand you may like it easy all the way through, but for many others we at least enjoy something that resembles a fight.

What if Luke Skywalker had walked in with his light saber and one shotted Darth vader in return of the jedi, it would hardly feel heroic. snip...

Well on the bright side star wars I II and III would not have been made and that would be a very good thing!

SilverBride

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not against veteran overland because my character is weak or I am unable to handle more challenging mobs. I don't find overland a struggle at all and I like it that way.

I like feeling strong and being the hero. I like that I'm strong enough to help others with World Bosses when they ask in zone. I find it immersive to come in and save the NPCs asking for my help without struggling.

Overland doesn't need fixed. It's functioning just like it's supposed to.

Being the hero doesnt mean you have to kill all things with ease. The heroes in fiction normally have epic fights with the end of story villain and it actually makes the setting feel more heroic as a result.

I remember how hard the story bosses were before One Tamriel. It was not unusual to be stuck on one for days before you finally beat it. I don't see any enjoyment in that and I don't want that type of epic battle again.

But for those who do want that, we have suggested an optional veteran story boss.

Parasaurolophus

jaws343 wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

Its almost at the level where the combat feels pointless and it may aswell go down the same route as those janky korean FTP MMOs where is auto combats for you, just leaving you to play it as a walking simulator.

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

Trivial to you. Easy to you. But I still see players dying to delve bosses. We still have players calling out for help for story bosses in zone.

At a certain point with any game, you just have to accept that your understanding of the games mechanics has surpassed that game's ability to offer a challenge to you. That is perfectly ok.

The problem is, they are never going to be able to balance a vet instance of overland. Because it will always either be too easy to too hard for some and will never be able to strike a balance there. And at some point, even that challenge becomes trivial or easy again for those same players and they request more.

It's just not feasible or realistic.

It is not true. The game has a high powercreep, but not infinite. Nobody complains that dungeons or trials are too simple and boring. Their difficulty is all right. I see no reason why you can't find the perfect balance for the overland.
Yes, I also often see beginners who find it difficult. But it is difficult for them while they are newbies. At the end of the day, the game cannot be focused only on beginners.

Toxic_Hemlock

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

There is a big difference between easy and trivial, and currently ESO overland and quest bosses fall under the trivial as mobs actually require zero effort to kill currently.

Its almost at the level where the combat feels pointless and it may aswell go down the same route as those janky korean FTP MMOs where is auto combats for you, just leaving you to play it as a walking simulator.

I dont like the idea of a debuff at all as it removes the concept of RPG elements of character progression, but I like the idea of scaleable mobs that go beyond CP 160, or the option just to have difficulty sliders on instanced quests.

Trivial to you. Easy to you. But I still see players dying to delve bosses. We still have players calling out for help for story bosses in zone.

At a certain point with any game, you just have to accept that your understanding of the games mechanics has surpassed that game's ability to offer a challenge to you. That is perfectly ok.

The problem is, they are never going to be able to balance a vet instance of overland. Because it will always either be too easy to too hard for some and will never be able to strike a balance there. And at some point, even that challenge becomes trivial or easy again for those same players and they request more.

It's just not feasible or realistic.

It is not true. The game has a high powercreep, but not infinite. Nobody complains that dungeons or trials are too simple and boring. Their difficulty is all right. I see no reason why you can't find the perfect balance for the overland.
Yes, I also often see beginners who find it difficult. But it is difficult for them while they are newbies. At the end of the day, the game cannot be focused only on beginners.

I find it challenging due to my health and I'm not a newbie anymore, does that mean that the game should not allow me to have fun? BTW I don't do any dungeon over the first four normals in a party as dying over and over is not what I call fun, so maybe some don't complain because they avoid them. I have never done a trial or arena, but I'm not asking for them to be easier (non-optional) to suit me as I'm not interested in that content.

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

Edit: clarity

SilverBride

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Nobody complains that dungeons or trials are too simple and boring. Their difficulty is all right. I see no reason why you can't find the perfect balance for the overland.
Yes, I also often see beginners who find it difficult. But it is difficult for them while they are newbies. At the end of the day, the game cannot be focused only on beginners.

No one complains that dungeons and trials are too simple and boring because they are created specifically to provide a challenge. Overland, on the other hand, is the base game and story for all players of all levels and skills and experience. It's apples and oranges.

The game is not focused only on beginners. If it were there would be no veteran content at all.

Every aspect of the game has its job to fulfill. Overland's job is to tell the story, and it does that very well.

Sylvermynx

Yes, I'm not a "beginner" either - 3.5 years, I do know rotations etc. However, my age, my lack of "real" broadband (and the accompanying high satellite ping), and my "non-twitch" reflexes make overland quite hard enough for me. Optional harder is fine, I have no argument with that. But making it harder overall will mean that I won't be able to play.any more - where all of you wanting the harder overland can certainly still play.

Should that happen, I would quit playing. I guess y'all would be fine with that.

SilverBride

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Toxic_Hemlock

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

Sylvermynx

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

I actually thought that was a pretty reasonable idea, where the other no CP proposal would have just made life for people like me even more difficult....

tonyblack

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

Sylvermynx

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

It is noticeable to me. CP is the only reason I can live over three mobs these days. Add a 4th, and no, it doesn't help me stay alive. Not long back, I was lucky to live over two mobs.

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

How does a debuff take progress from veteran players? It doesn't take anything away. It just temporarily removes it to make the fights more difficult, which is what is being asked for.

Toxic_Hemlock

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

Many here didn't want more of a challenge is the answer here. Edit: also it would be optional, so we would not be taking ANYTHING away from you. If you had a game mode, lets call it a trial for instance, and I wanted it to be easier. I would have to tell you why I deserve to have the difficulty decreased all while trying to keep the dev time needed to minimal. This might lead to an optional switch that made made the trail easier to me without taking anything away from you. We won't discuss loot here as that is not what this is about, RIGHT?

Meanwhile you want a game mode, overland, made to be more of a challenge for you. This is fine in itself, but you cannot expect those that are happy to give up what makes them happy is my point.

It seems to be lost on some here though, but MANY HERE LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS so why should we have to change?

Edit 2: Per your quote "Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty."

By your own logic then you would use the switch and feel no difference then? As for me and others that insignificant increase does make some difference. You are in fact proving my point for me.

tonyblack

Sylvermynx wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

It is noticeable to me. CP is the only reason I can live over three mobs these days. Add a 4th, and no, it doesn't help me stay alive. Not long back, I was lucky to live over two mobs.

Sorry, but with high ping or not I get the impression that you doing something wrong with you build in general if you struggling with current difficulty as it is. It all comes down to other parts of your build. What gear and skills are you using is the most important one. I can use something like 5 mother sorrow + 5 medusa + 1 peace of mismatched monster set with crit, go into current no cp no proc IC and everything will melt with this set up just as fast as in cp campaign and you have healing debuff on top of that already. The only fights where I might have some challenge is bosses, but even sever ones are big step above anything you’ll see in quests, delves or public dungeon.
And if animation canceling and dynamic rotation is too much and high ping is an issue there is an alternatives like heavy attack magicka sorcerer. Critical surge, familiar pet, twilight tormentor pet, bound aegis, inner light and atro ult with same sets and companion on top would melt anything you look at and no skill or reflexes required.

tonyblack

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

Many here didn't want more of a challenge is the answer here. Edit: also it would be optional, so we would not be taking ANYTHING away from you. If you had a game mode, lets call it a trial for instance, and I wanted it to be easier. I would have to tell you why I deserve to have the difficulty decreased all while trying to keep the dev time needed to minimal. This might lead to an optional switch that made made the trail easier to me without taking anything away from you. We won't discuss loot here as that is not what this is about, RIGHT?

Meanwhile you want a game mode, overland, made to be more of a challenge for you. This is fine in itself, but you cannot expect those that are happy to give up what makes them happy is my point.

It seems to be lost on some here though, but MANY HERE LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS so why should we have to change?

Edit 2: Per your quote "Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty."

By your own logic then you would use the switch and feel no difference then? As for me and others that insignificant increase does make some difference. You are in fact proving my point for me.

By my own logic it would provide nothing of value at all beside small damage decrease and losing green tree passives. So what are my reasons to use it?
[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

tonyblack

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

How does a debuff take progress from veteran players? It doesn't take anything away. It just temporarily removes it to make the fights more difficult, which is what is being asked for.

Depends on what kind of debuff. CP one take away champion points for no reason.

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

How does a debuff take progress from veteran players? It doesn't take anything away. It just temporarily removes it to make the fights more difficult, which is what is being asked for.

Depends on what kind of debuff. CP one take away champion points for no reason.

What about a debuff that removes half your health and half your damage?

Toxic_Hemlock

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

Many here didn't want more of a challenge is the answer here. Edit: also it would be optional, so we would not be taking ANYTHING away from you. If you had a game mode, lets call it a trial for instance, and I wanted it to be easier. I would have to tell you why I deserve to have the difficulty decreased all while trying to keep the dev time needed to minimal. This might lead to an optional switch that made made the trail easier to me without taking anything away from you. We won't discuss loot here as that is not what this is about, RIGHT?

Meanwhile you want a game mode, overland, made to be more of a challenge for you. This is fine in itself, but you cannot expect those that are happy to give up what makes them happy is my point.

It seems to be lost on some here though, but MANY HERE LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS so why should we have to change?

Edit 2: Per your quote "Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty."

By your own logic then you would use the switch and feel no difference then? As for me and others that insignificant increase does make some difference. You are in fact proving my point for me.

By my own logic it would provide nothing of value at all beside small damage decrease and losing green tree passives. So what are my reasons to use it?
I know that some people in this threat is strictly opposed to anything meaningful and that is why I have hard time taking their suggestions seriously because they are written with no regards to players who want harder challenges.

First and foremost I did not include the green tree in this as EVERYONE should benefit from that tree.



Edit: Your reasons for using it are that small damage decrease you stated (I.E. more challenge)

As for me needing it...

The Fitness tree allows me to slot an ability that gives me breathing room for when I get held (slippery) that has more than once saved my butt. Along with reduced stamina cost for dodging and improved speed can turn the tide too.

The warfare tree allows me to hit a bit harder and in doing so lets me hit hard enough to possibly damage delve bosses quick enough that I don't get hit too much.

As you can see what you consider to be a more or less useless, I consider to be a game changer.

As for you wanting harder challenge, the voluntary CP nerf is all I can see as viable as anything else would require more dev time and as such would take content away from the general populous.

Different strokes... I cannot tell you what is fun or viable for you, all I ask is please don't do the same to me.

edit: clarity

tonyblack

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

How does a debuff take progress from veteran players? It doesn't take anything away. It just temporarily removes it to make the fights more difficult, which is what is being asked for.

Depends on what kind of debuff. CP one take away champion points for no reason.

What about a debuff that removes half your health and half your damage?

It would be slightly more realistic if the debuff increased your damage taken, reduced damage done and healing done and maybe remove hp hegen. These stats would make everything harder, hp cap does nothing for that.
But then the problem arise what values would be optimal and how you adjust them?
Another problem how would that work in MMO where you constantly surrounded by players, who can potentially troll and grief you or just unintentionally help without realization that you don’t want it?
How you incentivize to use it? Make no mistake if ZOS add something like that in game it should have benefits for them and would most likely be a mystic item, which they would try to sell to as much players as possible.
And that in turn creates a potential problems of toxicity if loot is shared or reduced on stolen kills, abuse if isn’t shared or underuse if it’s designed badly for both challenge and incentive.
In most pessimistic outcome, the item ends up useless, cluttering our inventory with no real value to those who asked for harder challenges and wasted devs resources. In realistic outcome, I’d expect it be used for farming of easy public dungeons and nothing more.

tonyblack

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

All many of us here are asking for in an optional switch for those that want challenge whilst leaving the overland alone for those that want it. IMO this should not be such a controversial subject as it seems to have become.

I don't want other things that would benefit the playerbase as a whole to be put on hold while they spend time and resources for something that very few would use.

We have suggested a debuff for general overland and an optional veteran story boss. Those would take much less resources to implement and would not affect anyone but the player using them, but these ideas keep getting shot down.

I have asked why some want a separate veteran overland instance or nothing but haven't received an explanation.

Which is why I suggested the no CP "SWITCH" for overland as the code is already there due to no cp cyrodiil, it would be an easier route. After the devs see if it is used on a regular basis then they could release some resources to make HM banners or some other solution.

This way it would not require much over a code copy/paste/edit to make it possible in overland all while not using a ton of resources that could take away future content from the players.

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

Many here didn't want more of a challenge is the answer here. Edit: also it would be optional, so we would not be taking ANYTHING away from you. If you had a game mode, lets call it a trial for instance, and I wanted it to be easier. I would have to tell you why I deserve to have the difficulty decreased all while trying to keep the dev time needed to minimal. This might lead to an optional switch that made made the trail easier to me without taking anything away from you. We won't discuss loot here as that is not what this is about, RIGHT?

Meanwhile you want a game mode, overland, made to be more of a challenge for you. This is fine in itself, but you cannot expect those that are happy to give up what makes them happy is my point.

It seems to be lost on some here though, but MANY HERE LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS so why should we have to change?

Edit 2: Per your quote "Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty."

By your own logic then you would use the switch and feel no difference then? As for me and others that insignificant increase does make some difference. You are in fact proving my point for me.

By my own logic it would provide nothing of value at all beside small damage decrease and losing green tree passives. So what are my reasons to use it?
I know that some people in this threat is strictly opposed to anything meaningful and that is why I have hard time taking their suggestions seriously because they are written with no regards to players who want harder challenges.

First and foremost I did not include the green tree in this as EVERYONE should benefit from that tree.



Edit: Your reasons for using it are that small damage decrease you stated (I.E. more challenge)

As for me needing it...

The Fitness tree allows me to slot an ability that gives me breathing room for when I get held (slippery) that has more than once saved my butt. Along with reduced stamina cost for dodging and improved speed can turn the tide too.

The warfare tree allows me to hit a bit harder and in doing so lets me hit hard enough to possibly damage delve bosses quick enough that I don't get hit too much.

As you can see what you consider to be a more or less useless, I consider to be a game changer.

As for you wanting harder challenge, the voluntary CP nerf is all I can see as viable as anything else would require more dev time and as such would take content away from the general populous.

Different strokes... I cannot tell you what is fun or viable for you, all I ask is please don't do the same to me.

edit: clarity

And you stated you don't want devs time wasted and system copied from current Cyrodiil, where green tree did not apply. So following your logic, your solution does require rework of what is currently possible and thus devs time. My question stands though: with value of CP power so low how it supposed to address discussed issue and affect those who want it solved in any way? Combat wise, I barely notice any difference with or without CP as it stands.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

And again why is it ok to take progress from veteran players while providing nothing in return but it’s scandalous in reverse? Nobody would be excited about applying nerf to themselves for no reason. Yes, it’s convenient solution to dismiss such topics but does it accomplish anything or address the issue?
Not to mention CP does not provide significant dps or survivability increase on its own. At the end of the day it wouldn’t even be noticeable in current overland difficulty.

How does a debuff take progress from veteran players? It doesn't take anything away. It just temporarily removes it to make the fights more difficult, which is what is being asked for.

Depends on what kind of debuff. CP one take away champion points for no reason.

What about a debuff that removes half your health and half your damage?

It would be slightly more realistic if the debuff increased your damage taken, reduced damage done and healing done and maybe remove hp hegen. These stats would make everything harder, hp cap does nothing for that.

An HP cap tuned to the right value would definitely make a lot of things one shot that couldn't before. So you'd have to care more about stuff like heavy attacks. The other debuffs you listed are also realistic. You could probably also add some buffs meant to give more loot like the equivalent of some the green tree passives.

Most of the time when we quest in zones that aren't the newest stuff on Day 1, we only come across a few players. So you'd be fine most of the time with your debuff food. This is why you don't see most casuals or newbies complaining Overland is overcrowded