Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Therefore this idea is intended to make questing more interesting while still working within the developers self-stated reasons as to why we can't have a vet overland "too much work" (debuffs require little dev effort) and fractured playerbase (debuffs don't require splitting players up).

If you don't care about what the devs stated in the past they aren't going to do, that's fine. But some of us would rather find solutions they haven't come out against and meet their criteria because we think it's more feasible and the lowest impact on the rest of the playerbase.

Would you please be so nice and link me to where the devs ruled out vet overland instances for good?
Thanks in advance.

They have a policy to never say never but they have said no to vet Overland and why on multiples occasions. This is why I wanted to make a suggestion that wasn't vet overland but still made things harder. Because the playerbase has been told "no" for years to vet Overland.

I compiled some answers here with select highlights from Rich's twitch.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also here are some responses from Rich Lambert and Mike Finnagin that I had compiled in another thread that I think are pertinent here.

On Vet Overland: [Source for both following responses]
[source 2 just forumers discussing this video in case the link is broken]
"So, we had that, Jeulen, at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out and we put the challenge into world bosses and into solo arenas and into dungeons and trials."

“People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.”

...

“I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than where we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go an experience story.”

“And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.”

On a Toggle:

"Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.”

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty sliders/settings[Source]

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that."

On what content players want to do these days (this was NOT said about Vet Overland, but instead was in an different interview where they asked him this question. While this response was never meant by him to address Vet Overland, I do think it's pertinent to know what is the vast majority of content that players engage in)[Source]

The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

In a nutshell, players want to see that you are going to put the effort into improving the game over time. And if you continue to do that, they’re going to stay and play and have a good time.

For the full transcript of the Rich interview check out SilverBride post.

SilverBride wrote: »

Rich Lambert recently addressed this in a Twitch stream here and gives an explanation as to why things are as they are now. I encourage others to please watch it for his perspective.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1133028256?t=1h48m0s 1:48:00 through 1:51:11

It appears the full video is no longer available and may have been taken down, but the first part of the stream is avaialble here: https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineLovelyGrassTakeNRG-IGkmH8s1XHeD9P2u

Click SPOILER for a written transcript of the complete stream.

Can we get a vet mode for delves and quests? Uh, so we had that ... at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out. We put the challenge into World Bosses, and into solo Arenas, and into Dungeons and Trials.

[Speaks about skyshards then returns to the topic.]

People didn't do it because they had to go through their own alliance first? That's not actually true. A ton of people completed their own alliance storylines to get to silver and gold. A ton of people did. People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff.

I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things. And so that was why we did what we did and said story is soloable and quick path will always be soloable and if you want the extra challenge you can go seek out other things to challenge you.

I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story.

And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.

Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it.

For an official interview check out Zathras post

_Zathras_ wrote: »

The relative ease of content in Elsweyr and Elder Scrolls Online as a whole has been a common complaint as the game's playerbase ages. Players have asked for alternate difficulty options for the open-world questing experience, to have a challenge outside of dungeons and trials. Lambert says that this probably won't be coming because Zenimax Online wants the entire storyline to be accessible.

"Balance is obviously a tricky thing. What is too easy for one player is impossible for another," he tells us. "We try to balance so that the average player can have a good experience, especially with the main story content. That's our critical path. If they want to challenge themselves, they can go and do Public Dungeons, or Trials with 12 of their friends. We do make that conscious choice with the crit path to make it playable for as many people as possible."

"As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22."

Source

Chilly-McFreeze

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Therefore this idea is intended to make questing more interesting while still working within the developers self-stated reasons as to why we can't have a vet overland "too much work" (debuffs require little dev effort) and fractured playerbase (debuffs don't require splitting players up).

If you don't care about what the devs stated in the past they aren't going to do, that's fine. But some of us would rather find solutions they haven't come out against and meet their criteria because we think it's more feasible and the lowest impact on the rest of the playerbase.

Would you please be so nice and link me to where the devs ruled out vet overland instances for good?
Thanks in advance.

They have a policy to never say never but they have said no to vet Overland and why on multiples occasions. This is why I wanted to make a suggestion that wasn't vet overland but still made things harder. Because the playerbase has been told "no" for years to vet Overland.

I compiled some answers here with select highlights from Rich's twitch.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also here are some responses from Rich Lambert and Mike Finnagin that I had compiled in another thread that I think are pertinent here.

On Vet Overland: [Source for both following responses]
[source 2 just forumers discussing this video in case the link is broken]
"So, we had that, Jeulen, at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out and we put the challenge into world bosses and into solo arenas and into dungeons and trials."

“People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.”

...

“I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than where we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go an experience story.”

“And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.”

On a Toggle:

"Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.”

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty sliders/settings[Source]

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that."

On what content players want to do these days (this was NOT said about Vet Overland, but instead was in an different interview where they asked him this question. While this response was never meant by him to address Vet Overland, I do think it's pertinent to know what is the vast majority of content that players engage in)[Source]

The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

In a nutshell, players want to see that you are going to put the effort into improving the game over time. And if you continue to do that, they’re going to stay and play and have a good time.

For the full transcript of the Rich interview check out SilverBride post.

SilverBride wrote: »

Rich Lambert recently addressed this in a Twitch stream here and gives an explanation as to why things are as they are now. I encourage others to please watch it for his perspective.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1133028256?t=1h48m0s 1:48:00 through 1:51:11

It appears the full video is no longer available and may have been taken down, but the first part of the stream is avaialble here: https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineLovelyGrassTakeNRG-IGkmH8s1XHeD9P2u

Click SPOILER for a written transcript of the complete stream.

Can we get a vet mode for delves and quests? Uh, so we had that ... at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out. We put the challenge into World Bosses, and into solo Arenas, and into Dungeons and Trials.

[Speaks about skyshards then returns to the topic.]

People didn't do it because they had to go through their own alliance first? That's not actually true. A ton of people completed their own alliance storylines to get to silver and gold. A ton of people did. People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff.

I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things. And so that was why we did what we did and said story is soloable and quick path will always be soloable and if you want the extra challenge you can go seek out other things to challenge you.

I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story.

And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.

Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it.

For an official interview check out Zathras post

_Zathras_ wrote: »

The relative ease of content in Elsweyr and Elder Scrolls Online as a whole has been a common complaint as the game's playerbase ages. Players have asked for alternate difficulty options for the open-world questing experience, to have a challenge outside of dungeons and trials. Lambert says that this probably won't be coming because Zenimax Online wants the entire storyline to be accessible.

"Balance is obviously a tricky thing. What is too easy for one player is impossible for another," he tells us. "We try to balance so that the average player can have a good experience, especially with the main story content. That's our critical path. If they want to challenge themselves, they can go and do Public Dungeons, or Trials with 12 of their friends. We do make that conscious choice with the crit path to make it playable for as many people as possible."

"As for the extra difficulty, that's something our playerbase has talked about for a long time. A lot of our original players forget that we had that with [Cadwell's Gold and Silver] way back when. The feedback that we got about that was they didn't like it. It wasn't fun. The extra difficulty wasn't what they wanted. They wanted to enjoy the story. It's a catch-22."

Source

Thanks. I will dig through it.

Toxic_Hemlock

summ0004 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

Simple answer because they NEED THE HELP MORE.

Seriously if you and the other higher tier players are finding overland far to easy NOW, what makes you think removing the ability from the casuals to survive will make it more challenging for you??

It just smells like you want to punish everyone that is below you into gettin gud..

Which mobs do you find difficult in overland? Most of the normal mobs have 30K health and are only in groups of 3, and things like wolves and skeevers have about 15K health. delve bosses only have around 60-70K health and are a mob of only one. Fighting these is just not difficult even without CP if you know how to do the basics in the game, even my 8 year old daughter can kill these with no real understanding of the game.

If you are refering to things like world bosses, I would like to point out that these were designed to be done with more than one player so its reasonable to find these difficult on your own.
snip...

Well I have died to giant bats and trolls occasionally along with others, a myriad of delve bosses too have given me problems in the past. Edit: this in not to say I don't like the combat, but is just difficult enough for me as is. As for world bosses, I avoid them on all my characters for obvious reasons even with a companion. As I have said in past threads my eyesight is bad and my reflexes are terrible so I cannot see my surrounding well most times. A companion is nice and before I had one I died much more regularly. This topic is being viewed with a 16 point font BTW.

I think the main reason I want to have an optional switch is due to the fact that there are precious few games I can play and enjoy as they sit. I don't want a challenge I want to have some fun doing and listening to the quests as they never get old to me. If they make overland non-optional and more difficult I will have no choice but to leave.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

The only options given were continue to suffer or go away/back to your trial cage which is not a big surprise but still indicates an issue going.

You should really read it all if you want to know the options given.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

*Debuff food
*Challenge Banner for Story Bosses
*Daedric Rifts buffed (random event in old overland could cause vet mobs to spawn. These are easily avoided)
*A Single New Zone that's like Craglorn with a completely standalone story and a dungeon. Maybe replace one of the dungeon dlcs with this. See if it would be popular. If it's more popular than a full dungeon dlc then maybe one of the dungeon dlcs going forward could be a small adventure zone with only 1 new dungeon instead.

This was my suggestion and it was meant to be a collection of changes that all eventually get implemented. Some of these come from reading this feedback thread.

Debuff food, Rifts, and challenge banners for the older zones.
New zones designed from the ground up in place of one dungeon each year to keep content fresh.

Would be surprising but I've read all the replies currently existing and deleted in this entire thread.

Commenting on ones you've quoted debuff is as unpopular as it can be, I don't know people who would actually use such a thing in current instances. Maybe at night times or dead zones like AD ones on pceu.

"Banners" are virtually the same deal as what me and many others provided long ago and probably the only thing people actually kinda agreeing here upon.
Rifts thingie isn't really cutting anything as those are not even 1% of overland and doesn't solve a problem for anyone. Can be fun dynamic but overland should be interesting to begin with for that.

Zones were dismissed by literally every anti-vet post, as it's "a waste of time and we won't be able to go there". I personally would love Craglorn but reimagined, remember Rich talking about something like that would be a dream for him but currently vocal majority would stomp even the very idea of that happening.

Frankly I don't think there is a solution that will make everyone happy in this thread. I just tried to find suggestions that have worked in other games. Also I think that normal dlc dungeons are underutilized by the normal overland lovers crowd generally speaking, so one less dlc dungeon in favor of a small adventure zone ala Crag might be a fair loss.

Beyond agreeing with devs that player unification is a good thing in Overland content, I also just think debuffs is more feasible. I don't see the devs overhauling the entire game at this point when they flat out told me that even shortening the wait time in DSA was too much work and would take 3 months. At that time they told me they are more focused on new content instead of old and that they don't think it's a good use of their time to go back too much to old content. So I just don't think they will ever do an entirely new instance of all that old content, especially one with new mechs.

This is why I focused on new content or smaller changes that when taken together can improve the situation.

colossalvoids

Yeah guess I remember the stream you're referring to @spartaxoxo , it's unfortunate thing but yet again not much of a surprise of the company.

I personally prefer that there would be more feedback and less solutions presented as sure as hell they're not gonna overhaul anything even for a large portion of playerbase and focusing on entirely new content where this feedback actually can show useful at least to a point. Even looking at armory implementation it's pretty clear community ideas wasn't the deciding factor but the feature is kinda here more or less.

Still the most zos can do without messing the current flow and to suppress such a complaints at least a bit could be less empty DLC's without endgame content (dragonhold/deadlands having no arenas or mini-trial), fixed pvp performance (yeah, keeping the dream alive) etc. as I'm pretty sure this is a popular topic nowadays exactly because people have no content to occupy themselves with and not only because people want a middle ground between overland and entry level vet.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah guess I remember the stream you're referring to spartaxoxo , it's unfortunate thing but yet again not much of a surprise of the company.

Yeah. It was the Q&A they did for Deadlands, iirc. They took questions from a thread here and mine was one of the ones approved. I was the one that asked the question they didn't like lol. I asked about when they added "joining encounter" to old dungeon what would happen with the old skippable dialogue and what player behavior it was intended to address as I was hoping they'd maybe expand that question to talk about like the random normals. They didn't really expand to much on that. But they did address unskippable dialogue. They said it would take 3 months to fix the unskippable dialogue in DSA and they don't think a lot of players would want them working on that instead of a new arena. They also said in general they prefer not to go back to old content and make adjustments that would cost a lot of dev time and instead focus on new content.

colossalvoids wrote: »

I personally prefer that there would be more feedback and less solutions presented as sure as hell they're not gonna overhaul anything even for a large portion of playerbase and focusing on entirely new content where this feedback actually can show useful at least to a point. Even looking at armory implementation it's pretty clear community ideas wasn't the deciding factor but the feature is kinda here more or less.

Yeah. I don't really know how to address future feedback without example solutions though. My mind is really moreso solution oriented/logic oriented. So it's much easier for me to say something like "I'd want a small adventure zone with a self-contained story like Crag" rather than like talk about how I feel about future content. Like I don't know what else say to beyond I don't want it to be forced or feel forced due to rewards you'd miss out on forever if you did it on normal. I like the way difficulty is setup now because it's modular.

Still the most zos can do without messing the current flow and to suppress such a complaints at least a bit could be less empty DLC's without endgame content (dragonhold/deadlands having no arenas or mini-trial), fixed pvp performance (yeah, keeping the dream alive) etc. as I'm pretty sure this is a popular topic nowadays exactly because people have no content to occupy themselves with and not only because people want a middle ground between overland and entry level vet.

I agree with this part 💯

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yeah. I don't really know how to address future feedback without example solutions though. My mind is really moreso solution oriented/logic oriented. So it's much easier for me to say something like "I'd want a small adventure zone with a self-contained story like Crag" rather than like talk about how I feel about future content. Like I don't know what else say to beyond I don't want it to be forced or feel forced due to rewards you'd miss out on forever if you did it on normal. I like the way difficulty is setup now because it's modular.

It's what most of us tried to do for some reason, but looking back at everything provided and what actually happened through the years they mostly look for a feedback itself, as their solutions always seems... Not really lot inspired from our brainstorming or goings whole different ways.
Will partially mention that ive contacted Rich privately some month ago on said topic when it was a really heated debate and got an impression they're looking for feedback only and not presented solutions from us (thought they're showing some patterns like not willing to be in the same instance, not loosing progress etc.), so I kinda gave up on suggestions as those are mostly were already present in those kinds of threads.

tonyblack

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Toxic_Hemlock

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Parasaurolophus

Players are complaining right now about an empty overland in the game. And this is hardly because it is very difficult.

tonyblack

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Toxic_Hemlock

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Players are complaining right now about an empty overland in the game. And this is hardly because it is very difficult.

Not pertinent to the conversation here, the OP in that thread wants to make old DLC's available to non eso+ subscribers so they may be more populated. If the DLC zones are quieter that is to be expected, as these DLC's are not usable to FTP players.

This thread was pinned to talk about current overland zones, that may include DLC's of course, but if a DLC zone is emptier it is due to other factors not just difficulty.

spartaxoxo

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Players are complaining right now about an empty overland in the game. And this is hardly because it is very difficult.

Not pertinent to the conversation here, the OP in that thread wants to make old DLC's available to non eso+ subscribers so they may be more populated. If the DLC zones are quieter that is to be expected, as these DLC's are not usable to FTP players.

This thread was pinned to talk about current overland zones, that may include DLC's of course, but if a DLC zone is emptier it is due to other factors not just difficulty.

I mean for me it just reinforces why developers don't want the playerbase of those zones permanently split from each other by difficulty sliders. They know low population times in some zones can get kind of lonely. Splitting say 3 people out of the map when 50 are on the server is meaningless but those same 3 in a zone of 5 may result in a newer player experiencing content they can't complete and nobody they can talk to about it. Obviously not a good thing

SilverBride

Maya_Nur wrote: »

CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

Champion Points are not a reward for doing veteran content... they are earned by leveling, regardless of where the leveling was done.

It is a false assumption that players who don't want veteran overland want no challenge. Many of these players run dungeons and trials and arenas, both normal and veteran. They just don't want every single aspect of the game to be a challenge, especially the base game and story. Overland is a relaxing place for many and struggling with quest mobs will take away from that.

colossalvoids wrote: »

I personally prefer that there would be more feedback and less solutions presented as sure as hell they're not gonna overhaul anything even for a large portion of playerbase and focusing on entirely new content where this feedback actually can show useful at least to a point.

Presenting solutions is part of feedback and will help find a compromise both sides can accept. No one will get 100% what they want, but both sides will get something rather than just saying no.

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Toxic_Hemlock

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

This suggestion is far to convoluted to make much headway here. Reading this twice, as it is quite confusing, I cannot see how you are not making casual players weaker. Removing CP from overland was the OP thread and only implementing it for VETS was what you quoted.

Suffice it to say I can't understand your point here, but if you are talking about a non-optional way to nerf overland it does not get my vote.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Toxic_Hemlock

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Yep, I too read this as "GET GUD" if you want to your CP trees to work.

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

Toxic_Hemlock

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

IT DID NOT, from the very first few pages of this topic it become clear we wanted an OPTIONAL way to make everyone happy!

Edit: what you are doing here is called false equivalency, you are saying we wanted to remove all your CP without an option when it was YOU that wanted it to be tougher. Many of us like it the way it is and removing all the CP we earned is, in essence, kicking the casual players in the teeth.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

I already addressed that false equivalency.

There is a difference between forcing something on people that they don't want and did not request to get a result that they actively despise versus giving someone an option to do something they don't like to get a result that they do want and asked for.

Vet Overland players want to have the experience where if they don't say dodge a bosses heavy attack they will die. This can be accomplished in many different ways, one of which is choosing to self nerf.

People who like normal Overland do NOT want to engage in that kind of battle. So you're forcing them to engage it in anyway at all times by forcibly removing progress they have earned.

That is not the same thing.

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

That would be a point IF we had asked that overland be made easier. Then we would be taking something away from veteran players. But that's not what is going on here.

All we want is for overland to NOT be changed and to be left as it is now and has been for the past 5 years.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

That would be a point IF we had asked that overland be made easier. Then we would be taking something away from veteran players. But that's not what is going on here.

All we want is for overland to NOT be changed and to be left as it is now and has been for the past 5 years.

It wouldn't even be a point then, because removing CP from those players wouldn't make Overland easier.

Like let's use a food analogy.

Person A wants a pizza. Person B does not. Person A however wants it delivered as they don't feel like driving. The pizza parlor tells Person A that there is no delivery, only pickup. All the pizza parlors say the same thing. So person A has to drive and get the pizza. Person A then trashes all other food in the house and replaces it with Pizza. Person B is now forced to eat food they don't like because "well person A had to go pick it up". Now Person A gets to eat the pizza they enjoyed while Person B gags.

Anyone who thinks those two experiences are equivalent just because both were forced to do something they didn't want to do, well I don't know how to explain any clearer. Having to work through an unpleasant task to reach a desirable endgoal will never be the same thing as being forced into an outcome you don't want.

Franchise408

I recently went back to EQ again, and my time with that game made me think about this thread.

It amazes me how a game from 1999, a game over 20 years old, a game so amazingly dated and obsolete at this point, can have infinitely better overland systems than ESO.

EQ has overland mobs that present a progressive challenge. There is no scaling, each mob is unique and individual, and many mobs even have unique mechanics.

You can mobs that KOS you, mobs that ignore you unless you attack them first, mobs that attack in packs if aggro'd, mobs that fight you individually, mobs that won't attack you if you are too high level, mobs that will attack you regardless of level. Mobs use different mechanics, as melee, spellcasters, etc.

And guess what? It's all "relaxing" too. It's quiet. You can take your time and do it at your own pace. Mob spawns are fairly static, so if you learn them, you won't fall victim to an ambush. There's lots of nice, calming, peaceful sound effects and atmospheres. But when you're actually in the fight, you're actually engaged in the battle at hand. It's not overly complex - EQ combat is a very simplistic thing. But it is satisfying and worthwhile. With it being even simpler than ESO combat, I find it far more rewarding.

Meanwhile, I was doing a delve quest last night in Hew's Bane, and on my DPS character - who is hardly some vet-god DPS character; I parse barely about 25k - I was mowing down mobs before they even had a chance to react to me.

I can tell you this: EverQuest earned a sub from me for giving me overland content that is satisfying and worthwhile. My money may be better used going to Daybreak and supporting a product that actually gives a valid gameplay experience, instead of going to ZOS for future chapter expansions that keep doing the same mundane stuff.

I keep seeing comments about how the pro-vet crowd is saying "git gud"

None of that is being said. "Git gud" isn't even necessary in overland content. Basic competency isn't even needed in overland content. The game literally plays itself for you.

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

I keep seeing comments about how the pro-vet crowd is saying "git gud"

None of that is being said. "Git gud" isn't even necessary in overland content. Basic competency isn't even needed in overland content. The game literally plays itself for you.

That's a strawman. The "get gud" comment is not about competency in overland. It was made to someone suggesting that casual players (and casual players alone) be forced into a harder Overland by locking their CP away from them.

Anyone who claims to be against forced vet overland should be saying the same thing, regardless of their opinion on an optional vet Overland.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

I recently went back to EQ again, and my time with that game made me think about this thread...

EverQuest earned a sub from me for giving me overland content that is satisfying and worthwhile.

It sounds like you found a game that fits your preferred playstyle. EQ satisfies what you are looking for, ESO satisfies others.

It makes sense for players to find a game that fits their playstyle rather than expect a game that doesn't to adapt to the them.

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

That is probably the most balanced and well-thought suggestion about CP and debuffs I've read in whole discussion and the only one I can at least accept. Personally, I would correct it this way:
Leave all overland as it is, but disable all CPs while there.
To enable it again you need to use mystic or food with debuff (several grades: blues, purple, gold), with stronger debuff more slottables and passives you can activate. For example, blue grade reduce your damage done and damage received by 30%, but you gain access to 1 slottable and 3 passives for each tree, purple up these values to 45% and add healing reduction while allow to use additional slottable and another 3 passives, gold up values to 60% and disable hp regen on top with no CP restrictions. Maybe even add more CP nodes exclusive to using gold debuff, like better odds of drops and their quality, etc. Debuffs should also affect companions.
I’m still not entirely convinced how this would work in MMO settings but at least for enabling more risks you’d be getting better rewards and speeding up other things.
That being said I would still take vet overland, vet quests, instances or adventure zones hard by default, rather than settling with cheap options.

Well it should come as no surprise here but, I don't agree with you.

You and the OP both want to put the onus on the casual player to get gud, something I have zero interest in. Placing it on the average player to use a buff to make themselves stronger instead of making it more of a challenge to those that want difficult challenges is just being cruel to the casual player. You suggestion is FAR too convoluted to anyone that just wants to play the game and as such you would drive players away when they need to add steps to their well practiced routine just to play the way they used to....

Many here did not ask for more difficult challenge, nor did we ask for any changes to overland, if you want it changed it is on YOU to nerf yourself here, don't expect those that are happy to have to jump through hoops for you!

edit: few mistakes

Nobody forced to "get gut" in case of my suggestion. All passives + 4 slottables in blue CPs yield something like 10-15% dps increase at best, even less benefits from red tree to mitigation. Debuffs in that case offer fair balance in build flexibility, making everything more challenging and green tree compensate with extra rewards and utility.
Nobody is forcing you to use such debuffs and you don’t need CPs to complete anything in current difficulty state so what would you lose?
Going from this angle would at least provide some reason to use it rather than “let’s make a debuff food that will straight up nerf players who want a challenge without any compensation or reason to use it and get this over with” or even more popular “use armory slot to strip all your gear and CP so you can nullify all progress you made to enjoy majority of newly released content”.
By no means this suggestion is perfect, it’s just cheap. But in case of debuff it would always be cheap, lazy and somebody ended up to be disappointed and for that reasons it’s least desired one.

I guess I don't understand your suggestion as you're quoting a post that was making a seemingly different suggestion. What is your proposal?

Quoted post suggested to remove all CPs from normal overland and leave it in vet. I just compose my take on how to implement that while considering debate about debuffs and population split above.

Causal players having difficult content forced on them so you can put debuffs in the CP tree makes zero sense to me. There's absolutely no reason casual players experience needs to be ruined for that. And Vet players could easily slot any debuffs they were interested in without also nerfing casuals.

Like sorry this guy wants the mob to hit him harder so we're just gonna delete years worth of effort on your unrelated account? How does tearing the casual players earned progress down build up the vet player?

Funny that this point become logical and justified in reverse, where vet players forced in extremely easy content and easy is the only option to complete it. And most common suggestions to address it is to nerf yourself and nullify all made progress while somehow it supposed to enchant experience, not ruin it.

I already addressed that false equivalency.

There is a difference between forcing something on people that they don't want and did not request to get a result that they actively despise versus giving someone an option to do something they don't like to get a result that they do want and asked for.

Vet Overland players want to have the experience where if they don't say dodge a bosses heavy attack they will die. This can be accomplished in many different ways, one of which is choosing to self nerf.

People who like normal Overland do NOT want to engage in that kind of battle. So you're forcing them to engage it in anyway at all times by forcibly removing progress they have earned.

That is not the same thing.

But couldn’t “false equivalency” applied to complains and requests for vet overland?
A lot of feedback I read in this or other threads are touching on more than just difficulty, yet common reply is just self nerf or watch for other game while missing other points entirely. It’s more than just about difficulty. It’s about mechanics, motivation, variety of enemies, build diversity, impact of combat, etc. Game focuses on providing it in other areas while in questing (major dlc releases) combat aspect is ignored by developers entirely.
Nobody in these threads are asking to nerf yourself and that wouldn’t provide results these people sick, yet all the discussions eventually come down to this.
Still I can’t see how removing CP would suddenly make overland hard for anyone be it vet player or not. After nerf, impact of CP on survivability and damage is low. Picking suboptimal skills, sets and race would be much more impactful on combat than removing CP and even then in no way overland would suddenly become challenging. So “forcing” is exaggeration. It’s more like some form of adjusting power creep which was introduced after all the buffs to damage + companions on top of that. And green tree being a compensation for increased difficulty, the point ignored or fought against by naysayers. Not that this was suggestion I desire personally, just a reasonable one if we go debuff road.

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

I recently went back to EQ again, and my time with that game made me think about this thread...

EverQuest earned a sub from me for giving me overland content that is satisfying and worthwhile.

It sounds like you found a game that fits your preferred playstyle. EQ satisfies what you are looking for, ESO satisfies others.

It makes sense for players to find a game that fits their playstyle rather than expect a game that doesn't to adapt to the them.

Yet, there is room for more than 1 game. And, as has been explained to you for 29 pages of this thread, and months worth of these threads popping up, nobody is trying to take *your* playstyle away from you. But an effort - even a minimal one - to actively engage higher level players - a tactic that is used by literally any other MMO in existence - can go a long way towards making even more people happy.

Especially considering the fact that this game is *Elder Scrolls* Online - an entry into a series with a history of challenging and engaging questlines.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

I recently went back to EQ again, and my time with that game made me think about this thread...

EverQuest earned a sub from me for giving me overland content that is satisfying and worthwhile.

It sounds like you found a game that fits your preferred playstyle. EQ satisfies what you are looking for, ESO satisfies others.

It makes sense for players to find a game that fits their playstyle rather than expect a game that doesn't to adapt to the them.

Yet, there is room for more than 1 game. And, as has been explained to you for 29 pages of this thread, and months worth of these threads popping up, nobody is trying to take *your* playstyle away from you. But an effort - even a minimal one - to actively engage higher level players - a tactic that is used by literally any other MMO in existence - can go a long way towards making even more people happy.

Especially considering the fact that this game is *Elder Scrolls* Online - an entry into a series with a history of challenging and engaging questlines.

It is true that we may choose to play more than one game, but they should be games that fit what we want in a game. It is not reasonable to expect a game to adapt to an individual's preferred playstyle.

ESO is based on the Elder Scrolls games. Those are single player games that will play a lot differently than a multiplayer game will. They also have a lot of mods that a player can use to make the game easier as well as harder, so they aren't necessarily more challenging.