Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

SimonThesis wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

We need scaling to be based not just off your character's level, but off their gear/champion points as well. If overhauling the scaling system is too much to ask, perhaps a 'Hard Mode' option that people can toggle on/off which boosts enemy health/attacks.
I'm tired of having to intentionally cripple myself to make overland content even vaguely challenging. I love questing. It's what I enjoy most in ESO. Please toss us a bone here ZOS.

I think this is a good compromise increase the scaling to gear and CP. If you want easier mobs unslot your CP and take off your gold perfected trial gear and gold perfected arena weapons. If you're CP 3600 with gold perfected trial gear and gold perfected arena weapons the mobs should scale accordingly.

I don't personally support any solution that forces difficulty onto those that don't want it.

Mayrael

summ0004 wrote: »

Best to just focus on all the aspects that most people agree on.

implementing harder overland for ALL= NO
Implementing separate vet overland on its own server= NO
Just fight naked and gimp your character= NO
Toggle to disable CPs in overland= Maybe
Slider difficulty or scrolls in instanced quests= Yes

Seems there is currently 1 option that could be done easily without upsetting anyone and 1 option that is a possibility.

Could ZOS please consider these are viable options to make more diversity for players interest please.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

It can be and is more complicated than that. When we talk about increasing difficulty we don't mean mobs with a million hp and 1 shot skills - we mean mobs that force you to use mechanics like roll dodge, block, healing etc. but nobody wants to spend 5 minutes to kill a bunch of mobs and such difficulty can't be changed with scroll or slider because you would have to instantiate fights. That's why it's much better to upgrade mobs in general and add buffs that allow easy content for everyone who wants it (or like I suggested earlier adjusting automatically to player skill). What will change for players who prefer easy gameplay? Nothing, they will still be able to play as they did. What will change for players who want a challenge in overland? They will have that challenge. What will change for groups of players? Nothing! Even a group that includes a veteran and a newbie will be able to play in the same instance and enjoy overland content. Any sensible arguments against this? No, the argument about unnecessary dedication of human resources to make such changes is pointless because since such a thread was created it means that ZOS is ready to address the topic. Anything else?

spartaxoxo

Mayrael wrote: »

It can be and is more complicated than that. When we talk about increasing difficulty we don't mean mobs with a million hp and 1 shot skills - we mean mobs that force you to use mechanics like roll dodge, block, healing etc. but nobody wants to spend 5 minutes to kill a bunch of mobs and such difficulty can't be changed with scroll or slider because you would have to instantiate fights. That's why it's much better to upgrade mobs in general and add buffs that allow easy content for everyone who wants it.

I really don't think they'd overhaul mechanics at all. What you'd get in this case is just buffs to hp and damage. And then people would have to run some kind buff that only worked in Overland to prevent cheesing dungeon achievements to provide the same experience they get now. Personally I think the onus of micromanagement of buffs/debuffs should be on the players that want the game to change, but this would also work as a solution since it doesn't force it on anyone the way automatic scaling based on your equipment does.

So while it's not my favorite solution, buffing the adds a bit and then adding powerful overland buff food is one I can get behind.

Mayrael wrote: »

No, the argument about unnecessary dedication of human resources to make such changes is pointless because since such a thread was created it means that ZOS is ready to address the topic. Anything else?

They stated that the thread was created to clean up forum clutter. Until such time as they give us a new statement, which they really should do and I think it's needed, their old comments about dev resources being a major hurdle to any change still stands.

NeeScrolls

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't personally support any solution that forces difficulty onto those that don't want it.

i totally hear you and that ^ sentiment seems to be the other half of this thread's argument (from what i've read) , however keep in mind: As 'users' (albeit paying customer$ ) , we are pretty much at the behest of being forced into doing a whole lotta other things in this game that may not be wanted.

In other words, Zenimax can code & design things basically however they so choose. And there's really nothing the players can effectively do about it; other than un-sub.

It's fairly obvious though that overland content is mostly meant for new player comfort , which is totally understandable.

Side-note: Tonite , me & a buddy, as healer & tank and both only CP 760'ish , decided to 2-man (with our 'companions' ) a bunch of DLC WB's (without any other players around) and boy was it super fun AND legit challenging!

Do i wish entire maps of all overland felt that difficult for each & every enemy? Heck no lol .

But , imho, it sure would be nice if there was better balance (relating to my outskirts idea i posted earlier on page 32 ) .

spartaxoxo

NeeScrolls wrote: »

In other words, Zenimax can code & design things basically however they so choose. And there's really nothing the players can effectively do about it; other than un-sub.

A lot of people would probably unsub or quit entirely if it became too hard to be fun to them. They've already did that once and it nearly killed the game, which is why ZOS keeps harping about those days even though the systems also had additional reasons that lead to it's failure. They heard "it's too hard, I quit" so much that like almost of all their replies on the topic mentions it.

That's why I think solutions like sliders are far better. I actually don't mind the idea of buff food for casuals either.

Hallothiel

SimonThesis wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

We need scaling to be based not just off your character's level, but off their gear/champion points as well. If overhauling the scaling system is too much to ask, perhaps a 'Hard Mode' option that people can toggle on/off which boosts enemy health/attacks.
I'm tired of having to intentionally cripple myself to make overland content even vaguely challenging. I love questing. It's what I enjoy most in ESO. Please toss us a bone here ZOS.

I think this is a good compromise increase the scaling to gear and CP. If you want easier mobs unslot your CP and take off your gold perfected trial gear and gold perfected arena weapons. If you're CP 3600 with gold perfected trial gear and gold perfected arena weapons the mobs should scale accordingly.

Nice idea, but it would not be optional as you are suggesting it as the default & that it would be those that wanted it ‘easier’ that should have to change.

It should be something that those who want a hard mode have to opt in to, not something that would affect everyone & they have to opt out.

NeeScrolls

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of people would probably unsub or quit entirely if it became too hard to be fun to them.

Sure but i mean, the same could be said about players who complain game is too easy to be fun for them, no?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They've already did that once and it nearly killed the game,

When? err , which Update rather? or year/era ? I've been here since 2013 BETA but i take breaks for a couple months sometimes, so i might not remember every peak & valley of ESO difficulty fluctuating (for overland) .

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They heard "it's too hard, I quit" so much that like almost of all their [Zenimax] replies on the topic mentions it.

Yeah i totally get it , especially since with the whole mix of PC vs. Console crowd, it's probably sooo much simpler to just make a blanket coded overland difficulty 'scale system' just how it is currently.

And BTW, i feel like players like you (aka "the other side of the argument", so to speak) are always thinking players like me are somehow wanting the entire maps to be VET Trials level challenge or something extreme like that. But i don't.

Frankly, i have fun playing ESO overlands right now just fine. But i just think it might be better with a slight tweak of challenge variation here & there within certain sections/enemies of overland content (again, re: my aforementioned idea from page 32) . That's all.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

That's why I think solutions like sliders are far better. .

hmm, would that only work in 'instance' phases though? Not sure how that could work client-side + server-side, relating to certain public spawn-points & such.

spartaxoxo

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Sure but i mean, the same could be said about players who complain game is too easy to be fun for them, no?

Nope. They already haven't quit in appreciable numbers and it's been years. Most of them just choose to skip doing Overland rather than quit entirely. The differences come in both the content outside of overland being mostly designed for people who want more challenge, and that some of the people who find the current overland the right challenge level actually can't do harder things due to a variety of reasons.

And BTW, i feel like players like you (aka "the other side of the argument", so to speak) are always thinking players like me are somehow wanting the entire maps to be VET Trials level challenge or something extreme like that. But i don't.

I personally think most of the posters want something like Craglorn. Which I honestly don't get. Like to me reworked Crag fails because it's too hard for people who think current overland is just right, and too easy for people like me who do stuff like VVH when I want a challenge. Honestly to me personally, Crag is the epitome of the 5 minute skeever fights y'all say you don't want. There is like 3 fights in all of Crag I have to pay attention to and none of them are what I'd call a challenge, they just aren't a faceroll.

Frankly, i have fun playing ESO overlands right now just fine. But i just think it might be better with a slight tweak of challenge variation here & there within certain sections/enemies of overland content

Same tbh. I'd use whatever vet Overland buff they put in.

hmm, would that only work in 'instance' phases though? Not sure how that could work client-side + server-side, relating to certain public spawn-points & such.

I don't know tbh. My guess would be buffs/debuffs you could turn on and off like cp

SilverBride

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

summ0004

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

I wouldnt full agree here, normal overland mobs are still very easy even without CPs. Obviously then having powercreep through CPs and gear then makes very easy become trivial which is where the game has a problem now.

I think the game doesnt do a good job at teaching players how to play and as a result this may also arise the issue of players struggling in overland because they dont know what they are doing. They may not have the awareness of food buffs and potions, and probably dont understand using light and heavy attack between abilities, or the difference between a DOT and a spammable attack.

SilverBride

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

I wouldnt full agree here, normal overland mobs are still very easy even without CPs. Obviously then having powercreep through CPs and gear then makes very easy become trivial which is where the game has a problem now.

I think the game doesnt do a good job at teaching players how to play and as a result this may also arise the issue of players struggling in overland because they dont know what they are doing. They may not have the awareness of food buffs and potions, and probably dont understand using light and heavy attack between abilities, or the difference between a DOT and a spammable attack.

I know Overland mobs are easy. They are supposed to be because it's the story.

I also know how to play my character. I just don't want a challenge while questing. I know where the challenges are when I do want them.

KyraCROgnon

My main complain with the new overland areas since Elsweyr is not the difficulty, but the lack of flavour and quality of the storyline.
Quite a few of the core zones stories are great. Wrothgar , Gold coast and Morrowind were awesome. Now the stories seem to be a copy of the previous year one with a diffent friendly npc , an obvious vilain and an "not so well hidden" secret vilain that backstab you at the end of chapter 3 ... The puzzles have arrow marks on what to press, the fights are ridiculously easy, and the narrative bad. Give me a great well written storyline again, and some actual hard to solve puzzles, and i won't care that the monsters are too easy for my level.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

1. There is a problem with overland mob difficulty for some players. I don't know how many times in this thread ppl were mentioning that for them overland is too easy, even without cp, with white gear and almost no passives. Why it is so hard to accept that some players just plays better and seek highier difficulty because of that? You enjoy story content and being a half god who can kill almost everything in overland with no issues but for a lot of players it is not a definition of fun gameplay.
2. You enjoy the current difficulty and thats fine. Most ppl who wants difficulty increase are talking about an optional harder mode. They want to enjoy the major portion of the game and it is fine too. Giving ppl options to do normal or veteran overland is a good thing.
3. Debuff is something that most ppl are not consider a good solution and I agree. It is not solving an issue in good way and is presented as a good solution only by those who don't want an increase difficulty. So it is a good solution for you, even when you will not be a player who will utilize that feature.
4. Why in this thread so many players who are against this change use "you have vet dungeons and trials" argument and think it is a good one? Should ppl start saying "hey zos should create only vet dungeons because it shouldn't be a content for casual questers"? This would be pretty toxic and thats how most this "overland is not for you then, go vet dungeon" sounds too. Toxic af and brings nothing to the discussion.

summ0004

SilverBride wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

I wouldnt full agree here, normal overland mobs are still very easy even without CPs. Obviously then having powercreep through CPs and gear then makes very easy become trivial which is where the game has a problem now.

I think the game doesnt do a good job at teaching players how to play and as a result this may also arise the issue of players struggling in overland because they dont know what they are doing. They may not have the awareness of food buffs and potions, and probably dont understand using light and heavy attack between abilities, or the difference between a DOT and a spammable attack.

I know Overland mobs are easy. They are supposed to be because it's the story.

I also know how to play my character. I just don't want a challenge while questing. I know where the challenges are when I do want them.

Thats fine, but plenty of players have found them too easy and will enjoy the story and questing more if there is more difficulty than current.

This is why the thread is looking for ways to provide some optional challenges to make questing more enjoyable to a larger playerbase.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

l
3. Debuff is something that most ppl are not consider a good solution and I agree. It is not solving an issue in good way and is presented as a good solution only by those who don't want an increase difficulty. So it is a good solution for you, even when you will not be a player who will utilize that feature.

I am one of the main people who want to see debuffs used and I do want a difficulty increase and would use it.

In fact almost nobody in this thread is against an optional increase in difficulty.

Disagreeing with any paritcular solution does not mean you are against an optional decrease in difficulty. Someone disagreeing with your proposed solution does not make their opinion the opposite on overall problem.

Harvokaan wrote: »

Why in this thread so many players who are against this change use "you have vet dungeons and trials" argument and think it is a good one? Should ppl start saying "hey zos should create only vet dungeons because it shouldn't be a content for casual questers"? This would be pretty toxic and thats how most this "overland is not for you then, go vet dungeon" sounds too. Toxic af and brings nothing to the discussion.

It is not toxic to disagree with you or to like the game's current design. The developers themselves have stated that they designed the game this way to appeal to the maximum amount of people, a story experience that anyone can do with optional difficulty in the form of dungeons, trials, etc.

Suggesting the devs remove something out of spite is not the same thing as liking the game the way it's currently designed.

By the way normal mode of dlc dungeons has increased in difficulty precisely because people argued that it should be training ground for people who like difficulty to get used to the kinds of things they'd see in vet and not just a way for casuals to skip out on difficulty. And the developers agreed and have increased the general difficulty of newer dlc dungeons.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

I wouldnt full agree here, normal overland mobs are still very easy even without CPs. Obviously then having powercreep through CPs and gear then makes very easy become trivial which is where the game has a problem now.

I think the game doesnt do a good job at teaching players how to play and as a result this may also arise the issue of players struggling in overland because they dont know what they are doing. They may not have the awareness of food buffs and potions, and probably dont understand using light and heavy attack between abilities, or the difference between a DOT and a spammable attack.

I know Overland mobs are easy. They are supposed to be because it's the story.

I also know how to play my character. I just don't want a challenge while questing. I know where the challenges are when I do want them.

Thats fine, but plenty of players have found them too easy and will enjoy the story and questing more if there is more difficulty than current.

This is why the thread is looking for ways to provide some optional challenges to make questing more enjoyable to a larger playerbase.

Honestly if nothing else I at least want the story bosses to have challenge banners going forward. The worst part of the story difficulty for me is the end boss of the year long stories being such pushovers. And the worst part is they are instanced so it's not like you could possibly impact another player by having optional difficult upgrades.

SilverBride

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland mobs have not gotten easier over time. They are exactly the same difficulty as they have been for the past 5 years, since One Tamriel saved this game.

There is no problem with Overland mobs themselves. The problem is that some players have gotten so strong that the mobs appear too easy to them by comparison now.

Overland mobs are not too easy. Some players are just too strong. That is why a debuff is the only logical solution, because it addresses the real problem.

I wouldnt full agree here, normal overland mobs are still very easy even without CPs. Obviously then having powercreep through CPs and gear then makes very easy become trivial which is where the game has a problem now.

I think the game doesnt do a good job at teaching players how to play and as a result this may also arise the issue of players struggling in overland because they dont know what they are doing. They may not have the awareness of food buffs and potions, and probably dont understand using light and heavy attack between abilities, or the difference between a DOT and a spammable attack.

I know Overland mobs are easy. They are supposed to be because it's the story.

I also know how to play my character. I just don't want a challenge while questing. I know where the challenges are when I do want them.

Thats fine, but plenty of players have found them too easy and will enjoy the story and questing more if there is more difficulty than current.

This is why the thread is looking for ways to provide some optional challenges to make questing more enjoyable to a larger playerbase.

That it why I have been advocating for a debuff and optional veteran story bosses, even though I would never use either myself, because these address the core of the issue without affecting other players.

Harvokaan

For me debuff is rather weak solution, how I "benefit" from it if there will be other players running without it? Like someone mentioned before, I can imagine trolls running around without debuff killing the fun for those who want the challenge.
Debuff also doesn't solve the main problem which is the enemies. I can still kill most enemies in overland with fresh char without gear and cps with no problem (not talking about wb, dragons or harrowstorms but delve bosses, public dungeons, quest enemies, overland trash). So how much debuff I need to have on my main char to feel weaker then the new lvl 10 templar with jab skill that heals in no gear (you can clear literally every non group quest with that toon)

Ppl often saying here that making the enemies more deadly (for vet overland instance) would be too much work but I think it is honestly not the case. The enemies have their own skills, what they could do to increase the difficulty is just to change some parameters:
- increase hp (not to create spongy enemies but to at least create the opportunity for them to use the skills)
- increase damage (in light armor I can be hit by 3 enemies in overland [without aoes on the ground that usually hits harder] and not die cuz their damage can be healed by hp regen. It is ridiculous)
- lower cooldown on enemy abilities (if you allow enemies to hit you for minute or two you can see they often have couple abilities but they have big cooldowns which usually means they will be able to use one skill max before you kill them)
- increase skill execution speed (why archer enemies load their easy to dodge, low damage skill for 5-6 seconds? lower it to 1-2 sec on vet mode and ppl will start to notice the enemy skills firing)
- rotations/improve ai (this one is only point that would require some serious development)

It is basically adjusting some number values. No new animations or other costly things (except last point but i dont think it would be required if we could see more and faster enemy skills that deal more dmg).

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

For me debuff is rather weak solution, how I "benefit" from it if there will be other players running without it?

This is true of all solutions and is part of playing a multiplayer game. There will always be a stronger player unless you are literally the best player in the entire region/world. Everyone else will encounter someone better sometimes. The maps are already instanced so that you don't run into people constantly unless the zone is new and overloaded.

So how much debuff I need to have on my main char to feel weaker then the new lvl 10 templar with jab skill that heals in no gear (you can clear literally every non group quest with that toon)

So what level of difficulty are you talking about? VMA? Because if you're talking about like say Crag, a debuff easily accomplishes that. Increasing the mobs damage or HP with buffs is not different than decreasing your damage and damage taken with debuffs. A 50k heavy attack is a 50k heavy attack. Games use these interchangeably depending on which will be easier to do for the current gameplay they have instituted.

The cooldown decrease is a good idea, as mobs die fairly quickly. So it will not effect most players because they wouldn't see them much anyway.

- rotations/improve ai (this one is only point that would require some serious development)

This part is a massive amount of work. You're asking for almost the entire game to be overhauled with that one.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

For me debuff is rather weak solution, how I "benefit" from it if there will be other players running without it?

This is true of all solutions and is part of playing a multiplayer game. There will always be a stronger player unless you are literally the best player in the entire region/world. Everyone else will encounter someone better sometimes. The maps are already instanced so that you don't run into people constantly unless the zone is new and overloaded.

That is not exactly the answer to my concerns. In current overland you can meet beter players than kill everythin in the delve you are in etc. This is something you described. My concern is that if you deliberately gimp yourself with the debuff in reality in populated zones there is a high chance you will not have fun with highier difficulty as everyone else will be playing old, easy overland. Debuff is a solution only for quest instances where you are alone which is better then nothing but definietely not the best or even most desired solution.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So how much debuff I need to have on my main char to feel weaker then the new lvl 10 templar with jab skill that heals in no gear (you can clear literally every non group quest with that toon)

So what level of difficulty are you talking about? VMA? Because if you're talking about like say Crag, a debuff easily accomplishes that. Increasing the mobs damage or HP with buffs is not different than decreasing your damage and damage taken with debuffs. A 50k heavy attack is a 50k heavy attack. Games use these interchangeably depending on which will be easier to do for the current gameplay they have instituted.

I'm talking rather about new dlc dungeon on normal mode difficulty. So easier then vMA (but vMA level of difficulty for quest bosses would be nice, won't lie on that).

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The cooldown decrease is a good idea, as mobs die fairly quickly. So it will not effect most players because they wouldn't see them much anyway.

- rotations/improve ai (this one is only point that would require some serious development)

This part is a massive amount of work. You're asking for almost the entire game to be overhauled with that one.

First, thats why I also mention that "except last point but i dont think it would be required if we could see more and faster enemy skills that deal more dmg".
It is definietely some serious work (probably not needed if adjustment for 4 values mentioned before were done correctly) but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates, for example:
(scorpion type of enemies) there are a lot of different scorpion enemies in the game like craglorn, clockwork, daedric, etc but they share most if not all of they moves so modifying this one template would affect many different kind of enemies in different zones
(fire mages) you have fire mages from different tribes, gangs, factions, etc in the game but they use same moves
Tbh zos very rarely introduce new attack types or skills to the template as it often require new animations and in recent interview we learned that zos prefer not to do that as old consoles have huge limitations in that department (probably that is also the reason why we are getting new skill lines so rarely and why some new skills are just reskined animations (stamsorc crystal similar to psijic spammable, vamp spammable similar to dk dot attack, etc).
So yes, I agree that it is a lot of work but I also cannot agree about the magnitude. Ppl in this thread often mention how this and that would require colosal amount of work without knowing anything about game design or dev work in general. Some problems that looks big for unexperienced eye can be solwed with much lower effort then they expect while some problems that looks not so serious would require a total reowork from the ground.
Thats why talking about the dev costs here shouldnt be players problem as we dont have access to data to properly estimate the effort. Also I would like to mention that we are talking about multimillion dollar company that have microsoft behind them. If the highier ups decide that this money would benefit the game, they will have the money to cover the needs.
As how to decide that, I think the best way would be to simply implement vet overland (or any other vet solution but im a fan of this one) to the new zones in 2022 and see how the new difficulty would perform. Two zones (as we will probbaly gonna get chapter zone and Q4 small zone as well) with new difficulty system would be a nice addition and would show zos how many players are up for new challenges.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

That is not exactly the answer to my concerns. In current overland you can meet beter players than kill everythin in the delve you are in etc. This is something you described. My concern is that if you deliberately gimp yourself with the debuff in reality in populated zones there is a high chance you will not have fun with highier difficulty as everyone else will be playing old, easy overland. Debuff is a solution only for quest instances where you are alone which is better then nothing but definietely not the best or even most desired solution.

Yes, but that's the case with any solution. Look how quickly dragons go down during dragon killing events for example, they can go down so fast sometimes you don't even get a chance to go to the next one after killing one unless you're maxed out on speed.

It's a reality of playing multiplayer games. I will admit that it's a bit more likely to happen with debuffs rather than vet overland once the hype goes down, but it's not a lot of a difference. This is because ZOS already tries to spread people out enough so they can quest without running into too many other players killinh everything really quickly, while still having enough people there to form groups for group activities. You should go to an older zone and do some questing and you'll see that you can easily go long stretches without seeing anyone.

There was even someone complaining about that the other day.

So realistically, you'd just have to wait until the new zone died down a bit if you wanted it to be challenging. But the same would be true of vet overland as brand new zones are always crawling with players the first week or two.

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Out of curiosity, could you mention like five enemies added this year to overland (so blackwood and deadlands) that are not using the already existing skill templates? I can only think about Ruinach and deadric caterpillar as for new creatures and i don't recall any new skills from type of enemies we saw before. So like 2 new enemy types per year with no new additions to existing template?
Also when you check UESP for creatures in ESO the list is not that big when you compare it to different mmo games
List of creature enemies in Elder Scroll Online
Ofc we also have npc enemies like bandits but they usually share only couple templates like fire mage, lightning mage, nightblade, etc.
Asking seriously as I maybe missing something in new content (which is possible as often i kill enemies faster then they can use the skill and usually need to wait to see their actions).

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Out of curiosity, could you mention like five enemies added this year to overland (so blackwood and deadlands) that are not using the already existing skill templates? I can only think about Ruinach and deadric caterpillar as for new creatures and i don't recall any new skills from type of enemies we saw before. So like 2 new enemy types per year with no new additions to existing template?

Death Hoppers, Ruinachs, Bog Dogs (iirc), and haven't been to the deadlands yet but UESP mentioned 2 new enemy types added there, one of which is the caterpillar thing (inferniums). So that's 4-5 I believe.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Out of curiosity, could you mention like five enemies added this year to overland (so blackwood and deadlands) that are not using the already existing skill templates? I can only think about Ruinach and deadric caterpillar as for new creatures and i don't recall any new skills from type of enemies we saw before. So like 2 new enemy types per year with no new additions to existing template?

Death Hoppers, Ruinachs, Bog Dogs (iirc), and haven't been to the deadlands yet but UESP mentioned 2 new enemy types added there, one of which is the caterpillar thing (inferniums). So that's 4-5 I believe.

Death Hoppers are based on Dragon Frogs i think with poison attacks instead of fire breaths, besides that they share the same mmovements and animations. Same story with Bog Dog (it shares some of welvas animations for sure, not certain about the attacks). Forgot about fire behemots as they are a new type of enemy

vesselwiththepestle

I am just playing through Blackwood and it was only this year that I played through Graymoore. Then I realized one thing about the quests. Usually we get that big main quest and we get all those quests across the points of interest. Often I find the quests revolving around a point of interest more interesting than the main quest. I don't have to walk all over the map, it seems to be more focused, on-topic. However, they are very short and they are missing some sense of danger, enemies are too easy etc. I wouldn't mind seeing larger point of interest stories and quests, with tougher enemies and just something different. It should also more often add twists to them. Like... I know ayleid ruins. If we get an ayleid ruin, well, it often feels as if you've seen one, you've seen them all. Some quests try to handle this with extra-dimensional realms, for example the Spellscar quest in craglorn. You get into this utterly beautiful area which you can't see anywhere else in Tamriel. However, stuff like that will get old, too. Combining two different layers like it's done in some quests, I think in Blackwood it was Fort Redmane, where you got the keep layer and an ancient ruin layer, work, too, to add some twist to it. Why not do someting with underwater worlds? If we can't swim, why not walk on the ground of the water or a sunken underwater city, that would be something new for ESO, at least I can't remember something like that. We've got a player house with an aquarium at most. Different layers might work into making a zone or point of interest more complex and the quest more compelling. Personally I still see the prologue quests as some of the most interesting and intriguing quests in this game. Maybe because they really focus some new issue or problem, some puzzle, which needs solving and where I feel I am getting to something. I guess you have better insights than me why your prologue quests feel different. I wish you could be able to put something of this in the zone quests. Maybe through... well... there's the main quest and side quests. What if there were side quests which are connected, too? Like you use npc from earlier dlc or the base game, why not use the same npc in the same zone several times again? Yes, for sure players will be complaining about re-using the content, but I guess those npc just need to be interesting enough for players to not complain about them . Some of our most known and beloved npc from the base game where those, with whom we connected again and again, keep that in mind. I don't know, it's just an idea to solve the issue of being able to do a side quest in 20 minutes means it is as easy forgettable, if you are able to take something over to another quest if might make it more rememberable.

I usually try to play the side quests and points of interest first before I fully dive into the main quest. When I do the main quest first, it feels like I already finished the main part and now I am just completing the game to have it complete... it's just less interesting. Also I sometimes felt as I missed out on something when I didn't do all the side quest stuff first, like npc missing in the final scenes etc. (This happened already in the base game.) So, all side quests first, main quest then. I imagine I am not the only player who does it like that. In Blackmoor especially I don't notice much of the main story in those side quests. Actually I started the main quest, but I have all forgotten of it and what it was about! I have finished 4 delves and 5 points of interest since doing the prologue... (I just realized according to the zone guide I haven't finished one single main quest, must have been the prologue I did so far.)

Another thing I might to add... Since Greymoor I feel like mob groups are spread out way more than in other zones. I still can remember how I started the game years ago and I've found it so annoying to run into mobs every few steps, especially in quest areas which were packed with enemies. So in that sense I think it is a good thing for new players to spread out mobs more. However, this gives an opportunity to actually make those mob groups tougher. You could increase their number. While in most zones the limit seems to be 3 mobs at once (in the base game most mob groups come in groups of three), Craglorn often as bigger numbers. When mob groups are easier to avoid for players who struggle with dealing with those mobs, it wouldn't hurt to insert more mob groups with increased numbers of enemies to the game.

You could even add a zone similar to the outside area of Spellscar. I don't know when we did get last time an area which was just packed with enemies. This could even work as a new grinding spot. I know, grinding mobs doesn't fit to ESO, but some players like it as you can see at Spellscar and Blackrose Prison normal grind. Why not add something new in the open world?

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Out of curiosity, could you mention like five enemies added this year to overland (so blackwood and deadlands) that are not using the already existing skill templates? I can only think about Ruinach and deadric caterpillar as for new creatures and i don't recall any new skills from type of enemies we saw before. So like 2 new enemy types per year with no new additions to existing template?

Death Hoppers, Ruinachs, Bog Dogs (iirc), and haven't been to the deadlands yet but UESP mentioned 2 new enemy types added there, one of which is the caterpillar thing (inferniums). So that's 4-5 I believe.

Death Hoppers are based on Dragon Frogs i think with poison attacks instead of fire breaths, besides that they share the same mmovements and animations. Same story with Bog Dog (it shares some of welvas animations for sure, not certain about the attacks). Forgot about fire behemots as they are a new type of enemy

Aren't dragon frogs critters? I don't remember fighting any, could you direct me where to fight one? UESP was not helpful in that regard. I don't recall any other creatures like them.

I just double checked Bog Dog because I wasn't sure about that one and you're right about them being based off Welwa. The Welwa did a bite, a charge, and a slap. The Bog Dog did the same bite and slap but at a greater frequency.

Harvokaan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

but not as huge as you tried to imply. Enemies in ESO are working on some specific templates

No. It is. There are ton of different mob types over the years and they'd all need new mechs. Like majority of mobs types are in quest areas too. Most of them would need it. The dev themselves have said that the old content would take an enormous amount of dev effort and that's 1 reason why they don't do it.

Out of curiosity, could you mention like five enemies added this year to overland (so blackwood and deadlands) that are not using the already existing skill templates? I can only think about Ruinach and deadric caterpillar as for new creatures and i don't recall any new skills from type of enemies we saw before. So like 2 new enemy types per year with no new additions to existing template?

Death Hoppers, Ruinachs, Bog Dogs (iirc), and haven't been to the deadlands yet but UESP mentioned 2 new enemy types added there, one of which is the caterpillar thing (inferniums). So that's 4-5 I believe.

Death Hoppers are based on Dragon Frogs i think with poison attacks instead of fire breaths, besides that they share the same mmovements and animations. Same story with Bog Dog (it shares some of welvas animations for sure, not certain about the attacks). Forgot about fire behemots as they are a new type of enemy

Aren't dragon frogs critters? I don't remember fighting any, could you direct me where to fight one? UESP was not helpful in that regard. I don't recall any other creatures like them.

I just double checked Bog Dog because I wasn't sure about that one and you're right about them being based off Welwa. The Welwa did a bite, a charge, and a slap. The Bog Dog did the same bite and slap but at a greater frequency.

Tbh i need to check that one, I think I was fighting some frog enemies in base game zones but not sure tho, might be mistaken with this one. Bog Dog were easier as i spent a lot of time in Craglorn and saw a lot of welva animations

Still even if frog is a new enemy, the amount of completely new creatures zos is adding each year is not that big (still remember when ppl were crying about lack of new enemies in Elsweyr with only Dragons and terrorbirds as new). Their work on rotations for them wouldn't be that grand but still it would be a certain amount of stuff to do for sure. But like i said before, I dont think it would be needed if they would increase hp, damage, skill execution speed and reduced cooldowns of enemies. Most of the times vet players cannot even see their skills as the enemies die so fast.
Of course everything like that in optional mode as i really don't want to take other ppl fun, just wanted to have fun myself while playing overland too.

spartaxoxo

Harvokaan wrote: »

Still even if frog is a new enemy, the amount of completely new creatures zos is adding each year is not that big (still remember when ppl were crying about lack of new enemies in Elsweyr with only Dragons and terrorbirds as new)

I think 4 is a lot personally, especially when you remember that it's not just Blackwood they'd have to redo but all of it. This also doesn't change there are a lot of enemy types in the game.

Overall I think they can only speak for themselves about whether or not it would be a lot of work, and they have made it clear it would be.

As for the other changes, I guess I can see the cooldown change being implemented. I don't agree with a separate instance though personally. I do like the CD idea.

Juomuuri

[snip]

Personally, I'd want to see a veteran version of playable zones one could set active upon entering said zone - this would put you in an instance that has the overland difficulty ramped up, and you could perhaps change the difficulty setting in cities or something. BUT - no new achievements would be added in veteran versions of zones, to keep the game fair for casual players.

I will defend casual players till the day this game shuts its servers down, they too have rights - I still remember how difficult overland was when I first had picked up the game... Please don't make ESO unapporachable for casuals, everything is fine and challenging enough for those who just want to quest in peace and have simple fun.

[edited for baiting]

Mayrael

PullaStormy wrote: »

[snip]

Personally, I'd want to see a veteran version of playable zones one could set active upon entering said zone - this would put you in an instance that has the overland difficulty ramped up, and you could perhaps change the difficulty setting in cities or something. BUT - no new achievements would be added in veteran versions of zones, to keep the game fair for casual players.

I will defend casual players till the day this game shuts its servers down, they too have rights - I still remember how difficult overland was when I first had picked up the game... Please don't make ESO unapporachable for casuals, everything is fine and challenging enough for those who just want to quest in peace and have simple fun.

And that is the issue with these threads. People don't read but will toss their 2 cents anyway. If you would read at least few posts you would know that we want OPTIONAL harder difficulty, you don't need to defend anyone as nobody wants to hurt casual players.

Instead of personal feelings we should discuss about facts and solutions.

Debuff is a bad solution as it only prolongs fights, it doesn't make it more interesting which is the point of this thread - to make overland combat more interesting and meaningful.

Difficulty needs to be brought up by improving AI and some numbers, while also we should get an optional buff that evens things out.

[edited to remove quote]