Overland Content Feedback Thread

AlexanderDeLarge

BlossomDead wrote: »

You're not the only ones buying said content. Doesn't it usually come with world bosses/arena/dungeons etc? We must be buying different stuff then.

No one's saying we're the only ones buying this stuff or that we're the only ones that should be catered to, we're just the only ones being ignored when it comes to difficulty. "Casuals" got a far more complicated feature that made the game easier for them meanwhile we've been saying the game has been too easy since around One Tamriel/Morrowind's release five-six years ago.

You're right, it seems we are buying different things if you genuinely believe that there's enough veteran-level content being sold to us in a typical chapter or DLC because there ain't. Meanwhile in threads like these we get a whole lotta hemming and hawing over "splitting the community" while being told to stick to instanced content, separate from everyone else.
World bosses roughly a fraction of a percent of all the available content in the overland
arenas instanced not what this thread is about
dungeons instanced not what this thread is about
trials instanced not what this thread is about

spartaxoxo

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Meanwhile in threads like these we get a whole lotta hemming and hawing over "splitting the community" while being told to stick to instanced content, separate from everyone else.

Because an entirely separate overland would split people actually doing Overland and not those activities, and solutions that would result in there not being a split (toggle to disable cp, debuff food, etc) have largely been rejected by the vet overland crowd.

Like if you insist that there is no other solution than to split people playing Overland away from each other, there is nothing vitriolic about saying that you don't want people currently playing Overland split from each other and why. People disagree with your solution is all.

Edit: the royal you, not you in particular.

SilverBride

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

[edited to remove quote]

Toxic_Hemlock

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

I believe it was posted in part jest. Stating that the vet level players don't want/shouldn't have to give up something they earned. Although voluntarily removing your own CP seems like a good compromise to me. Granting the devs time to see how many want to use it, some don't even want a compromise though and just want their own instance NOW!

[edited to remove quote]

FlopsyPrince

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Note that you are no longer playing SWTOR, which shows that having that did not help much.

The Old Republic will be ten years old a month from now. People take breaks in MMOs all the time and it is unreasonable to expect someone to play a game for ten years straight. The difficulty settings in The Old Republic are very nice and improved their respective expansion packs significantly.

It has its draws, though the "tougher overland content" didn't keep you there. Putting a lot of effort for the same in ESO when it would not even keep most who want it is exactly my point.

summ0004 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

Disable CP for overland and questing would make some interim benefit. That way the CPs only work in dungeon and trials, and it would eliminate some of the powercreep that is the issue in overland.

Allow people to do that themselves. Don't force it. Make it a flag on that screen perhaps?

Sylvermynx wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

Disable CP for overland and questing would make some interim benefit. That way the CPs only work in dungeon and trials, and it would eliminate some of the powercreep that is the issue in overland.

All my mains have CP over 300 - and did at the time they've done chapter and Q4 story bosses - they died repeatedly to Molag Bal, Mulaamnir, Vandacia.... Not fun. Not remotely fun. I can hardly wait (NOT) to deal with Kaalgrontiid (nope, haven't done all of that quest line yet) or Dagon....

I realize that my issues are not those of everyone - but there are sufficient folks who've had some of the same issues (if for other reasons than high ping and aging reflexes) that at least I don't feel completely alone here.

Now if it's an option to disable CP, that's fine - but of course, one can already do that, right?

They would say "Get Gud!" I would disagree with that as I am sure you would, but that is the flaw here. A few love high twitch stuff. Some of us don't do so well at that and do not want it pushed into this game.

Play a twitch game if you want that.
.

summ0004 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

Disable CP for overland and questing would make some interim benefit. That way the CPs only work in dungeon and trials, and it would eliminate some of the powercreep that is the issue in overland.

All my mains have CP over 300 - and did at the time they've done chapter and Q4 story bosses - they died repeatedly to Molag Bal, Mulaamnir, Vandacia.... Not fun. Not remotely fun. I can hardly wait (NOT) to deal with Kaalgrontiid (nope, haven't done all of that quest line yet) or Dagon....

I realize that my issues are not those of everyone - but there are sufficient folks who've had some of the same issues (if for other reasons than high ping and aging reflexes) that at least I don't feel completely alone here.

Now if it's an option to disable CP, that's fine - but of course, one can already do that, right?

Well thats why the other solution is to have instanced quest bosses with optional difficulty sliders. i know that star wars the old republic does a similar thing in its instances and it it has a few different difficulty settings, and it worked pretty well when I used to play it.

Anoother idea is you scale all the mobs to a higher level than 160 CP, and then it scales players who are lower than this to thr required level.

I hate to say it, but mobs in overland and quest and delve bosses in the earlier zones are absurdely easy if you have any basic understanding of how to play this game. So much so, that even my 8 year and 10 year kids can do it.

Note that you are no longer playing SWTOR, which shows that having that did not help much.

====

I would have no problem with an overall "turn off CP" flag for those who wanted that. Though it wouldn't solve the problem of some wanting bigger rewards, which is the core elephant in this area that is often being avoided.

Firstly I am no longer playing SWTOR because it is an old and dated tab targetted game that is feeling its age, its nothing to do with the difficulty slider.

And I am nowhere near a twitch style player, I dont play meta end game and dont do 100K dps but still the overland questing its absurdely easy. Anyone with more than 8K dps and more than 16K health can blitz through mobs with ease, if you are willing to learn how to play. My 8 year old daughter can grab my gamepad and mash a few buttons and still rarely struggles.

The slider was mentioned as a good thing. It did not provide the claimed value however (player retention) at least for you.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

[snip]

There already is scaling in the game in the form of taking on different types of content with increasing levels of difficulty.

Which is a small fraction of the content being sold to us every year hence the problem. People keep talking about cost/benefit analysis yet no one seems to recognize the irony of the vitriol that comes towards veteran players, the ones continuously buying this content every year, for merely asking for higher difficulty in the majority of content being bought as if we're not worth implementing a mere debuff food/item/memento/whatever meanwhile the "majority" gets companion NPCs to complete incredibly easy PvE content.

Frankly it's insulting.

[Edited for Baiting]

What makes someone a "veteran player"? I have been playing for about 4 years now. Not as long as many, but not a short time either. I would not see any value in this, yet I would likely be a veteran player.

Long term players do not necessarily mean "want hard content" players. The opposite is more likely to be true in fact, since we have stuck around without that.

Long and hard fights against wolves was mentioned above. What would "harder Overland content" be if not things like that? Would wolves have to remain easy? Why? What would have to be harder to qualify?

Maya_Nur

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[snip]

Forcing a change on people to give them an experience they do not want to achieve a result they don't like and never asked for "for their own good," is not the same thing as giving someone an option to do a change they may not like in order to achieve a gameplay result that they will enjoy and have specifically requested. One is a compromise solution, the other is active hostility. Obviously, game developers should never be making changes for the sole purpose of making unhappy customers.

This why developers don't randomly take away earned awards from players out of spite but do give them the option to debuff themselves for many games across a multitude of genres for many, many years. It is also why debuffs to create a more challenging experience is incredibly common in game mods.

But nice false equivalency.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Toxic_Hemlock

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

I stand corrected @Maya_Nur was being serious.

Few counter points:

-nOL can be finished easily....
BY YOU AND some other players, some don't find it as easy as you seem to think

-Companions are useless in vet content...
true BUT they were added for those that need the help ALONG with CP

-Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessary...
This is pure speculation, I in fact enjoy the combat and engage in it regularly, the fact that I don't want to memorize a specific pattern to defeat X boss doesn't make me any less of a player.

-With pure CP passives for harvesting etc....
I was going to leave the crafting tree out of this conversation as EVERYONE with the CP points can find benefit there.
Why do you want to deprive the casuals from getting better rewards from harvesting is my question?

- Champion points will also become a reward for vOL....
The same can be said for the casuals, but IT IS NOT US THAT WANTED MORE OF A CHALLENGE!

My question is this.. If you wanted added challenge why nerf those that need the help more?
Your post makes ZERO sense.

[edited to remove quote]

Maya_Nur

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

[snip]

Forcing a change on people to give them an experience they do not want to achieve a result they don't like and never asked for "for their own good," is not the same thing as giving someone an option to do a change they may not like in order to achieve a gameplay result that they will enjoy and have specifically requested. One is a compromise solution, the other is active hostility. Obviously, game developers should never be making changes for the sole purpose of making unhappy customers.

This why developers don't randomly take away earned awards from players out of spite but do give them the option to debuff themselves for many games across a multitude of genres for many, many years. It is also why debuffs to create a more challenging experience is incredibly common in game mods.

But nice false equivalency.

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

[edited to remove quote]

Maya_Nur

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of us don't see a problem with overland, but are agreeable with finding a way to make it enjoyable for those who do. We have offered some reasonable solutions but they are all dismissed because it's not a separate instance.

The only thing a separate instance would provide that removing CP or a debuff wouldn't is the possibility of better rewards. Realistically, the possibility that every overland mob would get new mechanics is miniscule, so that isn't really a factor.

So why a separate veteran instance, or nothing?

[snip]

How would that enhance the game for either party? Vet players would experience no difference. And people who like the game the way it is would have a worse experience. I can see no other point to such a change rather than to spite normal players tbh. Make it make sense.

Removing CP from nOL players make sense because:
— nOL can be finished without CP easily.
— Companions are useless in vet content, but they could be a great addition for nOL players without CP.
— Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessery and annoying thing on their way to other activities, so they rarely engage in combat at all.
— With green CP passives for harvesting resoureces vOL players can obtain "extra rewards" without adding any new extra rewards by devs.
— Champion points will also become a reward for vOL players granting them a sense of accomplishment.

I stand corrected @Maya_Nur was being serious.

Few counter points:

-nOL can be finished easily....
BY YOU AND some other players, some don't find it as easy as you seem to think

-Companions are useless in vet content...
true BUT they were added for those that need the help ALONG with CP

-Most of the nOL players find overland mobs unnecessary...
This is pure speculation, I in fact enjoy the combat and engage in it regularly, the fact that I don't want to memorize a specific pattern to defeat X boss doesn't make me any less of a player.

-With pure CP passives for harvesting etc....
I was going to leave the crafting tree out of this conversation as EVERYONE with the CP points can find benefit there.
Why do you want to deprive the casuals from getting better rewards from harvesting is my question?

- Champion points will also become a reward for vOL....
The same can be said for the casuals, but IT IS NOT US THAT WANTED MORE OF A CHALLENGE!

My question is this.. If you wanted added challenge why nerf those that need the help more?
Your post makes ZERO sense.

A fair remark, I guess. You're right about I did some speculations, but it is only because I have no numbers. Neither those who against vOL have it. So as far as no one except devs knows current situation we do suggestions which either can be relevant or irrelevant. Maybe overland team will find it interresting, who knows?

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs, fails to address any player complaint, fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

I don't know why you want to try to force your idea of fun on people who don't want vet overland, but not everyone likes difficult content. It makes literally zero sense to purposefully make content harder for people who don't enjoy difficult content to the exclusion of people who do.

Didn't you state you don't want forced vet overland earlier? So why does your idea revolve around forcing difficulty only on people who don't want it with no changes for the people who do?

Maya_Nur

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

Toxic_Hemlock

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

Simple answer because they NEED THE HELP MORE.

Seriously if you and the other higher tier players are finding overland far to easy NOW, what makes you think removing the ability from the casuals to survive will make it more challenging for you??

It just smells like you want to punish everyone that is below you into gettin gud..

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy."

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

Maya_Nur

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

[edited for bashing]

Chilly-McFreeze

Not digging through every post here but I often read about the idea to "just debuff the vet player" so there needs to be no seperate (vet) instance.

Doesn't this argument fall a little short as:

a) there are already seperated instances of the same overworld content. Everyone can see this when you group up with a friend that's in the same zone but not the same instance as you.

b) If I dwarf myself to have some nice fights in quests the next best "normal-overland player" can still two shot the quest boss for me. So there's nothing gained from this option.

IF they go with the debuff route for overland instead of how the handle dungeons, it still must be in a seperate instance that only contains debuffed players. Or else this has little meaning but a lot of frustration potential.

And for the "you only want better rewards" crowd: how is this different from running dungeons on normal or vet/hm? That bit of gold to bring green/blue items to purple is hardly a reason to be against the whole idea of challenging overland content.

spartaxoxo

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

Okay. So I was right the first time. I never doubted it but it's nice to see you revealing this is about the debuff suggestion whether you intended it or not. It was mocking the idea of debuffs because you think it is a lazy idea for devs that punishes you.

The entire point of the suggestion is it's a low amount of work for the devs. They strongly implied it would be too much work to do a vet Overland. They also stated in the past on a different topic that they have a general philosophy against going back and revamping old content because it takes away from new content.

Debuffs aren't intended to be better than an entire overhaul of the game. It's meant to be a compromise because the devs have implied that it's too much work.

It is intended to be a "something is better than nothing solution" that actually works to improve the gameplay situation for people who want a harder Overland.

A debuff suggestion does NOT stand in the way of Vet Overland. It stands in place of you getting nothing at all per the developers own stance of it being too much work and interfering with their design intention of player unity.

The story quest is for everyone. It is literally even tutorial content. No game developer would make tutorial content only rewarding for players that have been playing for years and want to reroll an alt only for that content.

It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

???

[edited to remove quote]

Toxic_Hemlock

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

[edited to remove quote]

Chilly-McFreeze

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

People unwilling to give up QoL green CP are in how far a good measurement for that?

[edited to remove quote]

Toxic_Hemlock

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

People unwilling to give up QoL green CP are in how far a good measurement for that?

I WANT NOBODY TO GIVE UP THEIR GREEN TREE, if you had read some of the thread you would have seen that. My only point was for the warfare and physical trees. This was to only make it tougher for those that wanted a challenge.

MEH nobody listens anyways.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

People unwilling to give up QoL green CP are in how far a good measurement for that?

Perhaps they could do a test where only red and blue tree are optionally able to be disabled.

[edited to remove quote]

Chilly-McFreeze

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

People unwilling to give up QoL green CP are in how far a good measurement for that?

I WANT NOBODY TO GIVE UP THEIR GREEN TREE, if you had read some of the thread you would have seen that. My only point was for the warfare and physical trees. This was to only make it tougher for those that wanted a challenge.

MEH nobody listens anyways.

Fair point then. But you can't expect people to dig through 834 replies.

[edited to remove quote]

colossalvoids

Would chime in instead of just reading it all, as player debuff would be only semi working solution if made in a special instances because it makes no sense if next player around just one shots your boss anyway. Also taking away people's progression isn't really exciting for anyone but that's goes without saying.

The only working solution that wasn't "rejected" (it's a feedback thread btw, no one needs special approvement from forum experts here, only devs look at their ideas or problems) were hms for quest bosses that are instanced going forward, but while it would address most of my personal issues it's not working for people actually wanting an engaging overland outside of a small niche instanced quest bosses are. The only options given were continue to suffer or go away/back to your trial cage which is not a big surprise but still indicates an issue going.

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Not digging through every post here but I often read about the idea to "just debuff the vet player" so there needs to be no seperate (vet) instance.

Doesn't this argument fall a little short as:

a) there are already seperated instances of the same overworld content. Everyone can see this when you group up with a friend that's in the same zone but not the same instance as you.

b) If I dwarf myself to have some nice fights in quests the next best "normal-overland player" can still two shot the quest boss for me. So there's nothing gained from this option.

IF they go with the debuff route for overland instead of how the handle dungeons, it still must be in a seperate instance that only contains debuffed players. Or else this has little meaning but a lot of frustration potential.

And for the "you only want better rewards" crowd: how is this different from running dungeons on normal or vet/hm? That bit of gold to bring green/blue items to purple is hardly a reason to be against the whole idea of challenging overland content.

The developers stated that they don't want to do Vet Overland because they want the players actively playing Overland united, and because they think it's too much work.

The biggest quest set pieces in the game are largely instanced and solo to you . Variable player strength and someone killing something before you get there is inevitable for every solution.

Therefore this idea is intended to make questing more interesting while still working within the developers self-stated reasons as to why we can't have a vet overland "too much work" (debuffs require little dev effort) and fractured playerbase (debuffs don't require splitting players up).

If you don't care about what the devs stated in the past they aren't going to do, that's fine. But some of us would rather find solutions they haven't come out against and meet their criteria because we think it's more feasible and the lowest impact on the rest of the playerbase.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

The only options given were continue to suffer or go away/back to your trial cage which is not a big surprise but still indicates an issue going.

You should really read it all if you want to know the options given. That's definitely not the only things people have suggested.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

*Debuff food
*Challenge Banner for Story Bosses
*Daedric Rifts buffed (random event in old overland could cause vet mobs to spawn. These are easily avoided)
*A Single New Zone that's like Craglorn with a completely standalone story and a dungeon. Maybe replace one of the dungeon dlcs with this. See if it would be popular. If it's more popular than a full dungeon dlc then maybe one of the dungeon dlcs going forward could be a small adventure zone with only 1 new dungeon instead.

This was my suggestion and it was meant to be a collection of changes that all eventually get implemented. Some of these come from reading this feedback thread.

Debuff food, Rifts, and challenge banners for the older zones.
New zones designed from the ground up in place of one dungeon each year to keep content fresh.

Toxic_Hemlock

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

It fails as a comparison because to debuffs because it's a false equivalency.
It fails as to address any player complaints because nobody who likes normal content and wants it to stay has asked for it.
It fails to make the game fun for people who like normal Overland because all it does is take away something they have already earned and are using to force a gameplay style they don't even like.
It fails to because it ridiculously forces difficulty on people who don't like it while making the game EASIER the more you challenge yourself and want a challenge.

"Hey people who like the game the way it is and enjoy a relaxing game?" I made the game harder for you! Enjoy.

"Hey people who like a challenge. The more you play the easier the story gets! No challenge for you! Enjoy!"

This is a video game, not a job. It should be enjoyable and rewarding for all levels of play.

I said it before, I will say it once more: debuffs [snip] and it punishes those who want more interresting gamepaly while CP for nOL players is a reward for those who want to do nothing but press X to win. It seems wrong to me and I don't understand why do you write "=" between challenge and nerfing?

CORRECTED.

And I'll say it one more time. Debuffs could be used as a measuring statistic, FOR NOW, to see if it is popular enough to warrant a large scale overland change. As adding NO CP voluntarily to overland would give the devs a more specific reading of just how popular a instance vet overland would be.

I admit it is a low key way to implement it to start, but you can't expect them to invest tons of dev time into vet overland and only have it turn out badly for their sales can you?

People unwilling to give up QoL green CP are in how far a good measurement for that?

I WANT NOBODY TO GIVE UP THEIR GREEN TREE, if you had read some of the thread you would have seen that. My only point was for the warfare and physical trees. This was to only make it tougher for those that wanted a challenge.

MEH nobody listens anyways.

Fair point then. But you can't expect people to dig through 834 replies.

Just like you cannot expect me to collate "830ish replies" to explain 4 pages of top suggestions thus far.

After the sheer amount of pages here it is bound to make people offer the same suggestions after a while, sorry if I sounded rude.

edit: word

[edited to remove quote]

Chilly-McFreeze

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Therefore this idea is intended to make questing more interesting while still working within the developers self-stated reasons as to why we can't have a vet overland "too much work" (debuffs require little dev effort) and fractured playerbase (debuffs don't require splitting players up).

If you don't care about what the devs stated in the past they aren't going to do, that's fine. But some of us would rather find solutions they haven't come out against and meet their criteria because we think it's more feasible and the lowest impact on the rest of the playerbase.

Would you please be so nice and link me to where the devs ruled out vet overland instances for good?
Thanks in advance.

summ0004

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Um... No mockery. It is a serious suggestion.

Okay well your idea fails as a comparison to debuffs and fails to address any player complaint and fails to do anything to make things more fun for people who enjoy normal Overland. So if it's serious, I am not sure who you were trying to target as you clearly and explicitly excluded people who wanted vet content earlier.

Not sure why it fails, because you saying so? Currently I find this idea more and more interresting, I may not be right at every point I have stated earlier, but I feel there is something good in it's core for sure, so I will keep thinking about it. CP is not necessery for nOL players, if they want no challenge, then why should they be rewarded for nothing?

Simple answer because they NEED THE HELP MORE.

Seriously if you and the other higher tier players are finding overland far to easy NOW, what makes you think removing the ability from the casuals to survive will make it more challenging for you??

It just smells like you want to punish everyone that is below you into gettin gud..

Which mobs do you find difficult in overland? Most of the normal mobs have 30K health and are only in groups of 3, and things like wolves and skeevers have about 15K health. delve bosses only have around 60-70K health and are a mob of only one. Fighting these is just not difficult even without CP if you know how to do the basics in the game, even my 8 year old daughter can kill these with no real understanding of the game.

If you are refering to things like world bosses, I would like to point out that these were designed to be done with more than one player so its reasonable to find these difficult on your own.

People who have the lastest chapter also have companions to make it even easier.

Im just not seeing anything in overland that is difficult, and this problem only gets worse when people have CPs, companions and get a couple of gear sets.

So this is a problem in the game, unless it seems that some people just dont want combat to be any part of this game in which case mobs then dont really serve any role and might aswell not exist.

I get that the solutioin to the problem is not an easy one and I can understand the difficulty in making a separate zone and this is why I dont see this as an ideal solution.

Having mobs that scale beyond 160 CP in overland is one possible solution, as is making CPs not work in overland, and options such as difficulty sliders on the instanced quests such as seen in SWTOR.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

The only options given were continue to suffer or go away/back to your trial cage which is not a big surprise but still indicates an issue going.

You should really read it all if you want to know the options given.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

*Debuff food
*Challenge Banner for Story Bosses
*Daedric Rifts buffed (random event in old overland could cause vet mobs to spawn. These are easily avoided)
*A Single New Zone that's like Craglorn with a completely standalone story and a dungeon. Maybe replace one of the dungeon dlcs with this. See if it would be popular. If it's more popular than a full dungeon dlc then maybe one of the dungeon dlcs going forward could be a small adventure zone with only 1 new dungeon instead.

This was my suggestion and it was meant to be a collection of changes that all eventually get implemented. Some of these come from reading this feedback thread.

Debuff food, Rifts, and challenge banners for the older zones.
New zones designed from the ground up in place of one dungeon each year to keep content fresh.

Would be surprising but I've read all the replies currently existing and deleted in this entire thread.

Commenting on ones you've quoted debuff is as unpopular as it can be, I don't know people who would actually use such a thing in current instances. Maybe at night times or dead zones like AD ones on pceu.

"Banners" are virtually the same deal as what me and many others provided long ago and probably the only thing people actually kinda agreeing here upon.
Rifts thingie isn't really cutting anything as those are not even 1% of overland and doesn't solve a problem for anyone. Can be fun dynamic but overland should be interesting to begin with for that.

Zones were dismissed by literally every anti-vet post, as it's "a waste of time and we won't be able to go there". I personally would love Craglorn but reimagined, remember Rich talking about something like that would be a dream for him but currently vocal majority would stomp even the very idea of that happening.