Wrong Event Name - It Should Be "Feed the Gankers!"

Oreyn_Bearclaw

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Gadget4 wrote: »

Zeni opened more servers prior to the event starting .. I had to laugh when I saw the divide ...

1st server
AD 3 bar
EP 0 bar
DC 0 bar

2nd server
AD 0 bar
EP 3 bar
DC 0 bar

3rd server
AD 0 bar
EP 0 bar
DC 3 bar

This is meaningless since the gankers will not go to "their zone" by definition.

And anyone that wants can go to their zone and join a large group. It takes an extraordinary level of incompetence to get ganked in a large group when your faction dominates the server. I like to think that for every person that cries on the forums, there is someone that uses these events as an opportunity to actually get better as a player. Maybe that is optimistic...

VaranisArano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So what this amounts to is saying "The Devs should never design event rewards that expect PVEers to put in the effort to play PvPvE zones as intended."

No. It isn't. That's an extremely bad faith take. It is saying that content that requires dedicated builds should not be required to get tickets, not that people should be able to get tickets without actually playing IC correctly. YOU are the only one that brought up doing IC in a way not intended, by claiming an exploit is the same thing as having PVE events not exclude players by design. Pointing out the flaw in that argument does NOT amount to advocating for being able to play IC in a way that was not intended.

Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets, just like Vet Arenas or Vet trials in dlc zones shouldn't be required. They can be included in events as optional activities like the double rewards in VMA right now. But they shouldn't be mandatory for tickets.

Content that requires a player to have an entire dedicated playstyle to that activity is absolutely not the same thing as content that everyone can do. You can give tickets for those things, but there should also be ticket option for people who don't have a build dedicated to that activity. Like in the past when you could do IC dungeons, or the way delve and world boss quests award tickets.

"Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets"

"So what this amounts to is saying "The Devs should never design event rewards that expect PVEers to put in the effort to play PvPvE zones as intended."

I feel like you said exactly what I'm referring to, though perhaps I wasn't clear.

The Devs are fully aware of the effort it takes for PVE-only players to go get those tickets, whether it's sitting on the Arena spawn tower or jumping down and doing the quests in the Districts. They intended it to be that way. Especially if you think the Arena workaround is an exploit - what does that say about what the Devs expect PVE-only players to do if they want event tickets?

What I'm hearing, though perhaps it's not what you mean, is a number of players trying to say that "ESO events should never force me out of my comfort zone where I'd have to change my build or practice."

Well, that's a valid opinion, certainly. I disagree with it, since it seems clear to me that the ESO Devs are happy to expect players to do all of the content if they want all of the rewards, and that sometimes includes changing builds and practicing. Events are just one method that ESO uses to encourage players to try out all of the game if they want all of the rewards. Some events will require that you change your build or practice!


And I agree that an Imperial City Event should have included the Dungeons as a PVE-only option. I've said that, multiple times on the various complaint threads scattered about the forums. As far as I'm aware, there's been no Dev comment on why they chose not to provide that option.

However, I'd like to note that every other Imperial City Event has offered the WGT/ICP option for tickets...and we still got a host of complaint threads about being "forced" into Imperial City for tickets from players who wanted the quicker option without accepting the risk.

"Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets"

Right, well, even when Sewers weren't required to get tickets, we still had a bunch of players saying that they didn't want any event rewards placed in a PvPvE zone, "forcing" them into that content.

Vevvev

Remathilis wrote: »

I think it would be hilarious if they made the next most-powerful PvP meta set a 9 trait craft set with bind-on-creation. All those PvP players would have to become Master Craftsmen. 😆😆

A lot of us are master crafters btw. The most dedicated of us have the newest crafted sets day one and experiment with them just like the most dedicated of PvEers. Like for example I make gear for my friends, guildies, and random people on the street for cheap because I enjoy bumping people up into the content they want to do.

FlopsyPrince

EF321 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

This person speaks the truth.

IC event happened to be my very first event when I just started playing eso, not even full month, I was only approaching CP200, had no paid DLCs, and even then I realized that going in with light pve setup is a no go. So instead of crying, I farmed myself rattlecage on jewelry and staves (I had no access to transmutation or jewelry crafting to modify other sets, so default healthy rings were nice boost to survivability), ask guildmates to craft me Impenetrable Julianos with heavy chest piece and medium legs, and there it is, I was ok to go into IC all by myself. It was not amazing setup, but it was a good start, given how little things I had access to at the time. I still have that setup and tried it in Cyro just recently (after a bit of transmutation, enchanting and gilding), and it still feels ok to play.


Then one early morning on one of the last days of event I went to do dailies, saw a guy fighting mobs, killed him with little resistance from his side and got 85k Tel var off him... I didn't know about campaign queue trick back then, so I took my time to caaaarefully sneak all the way home.

So I was rewarded pretty well for my efforts to honestly try PvP and not cry about PvP.

You ganked someone and proved the entire point about this being foolish.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

VaranisArano

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

This person speaks the truth.

IC event happened to be my very first event when I just started playing eso, not even full month, I was only approaching CP200, had no paid DLCs, and even then I realized that going in with light pve setup is a no go. So instead of crying, I farmed myself rattlecage on jewelry and staves (I had no access to transmutation or jewelry crafting to modify other sets, so default healthy rings were nice boost to survivability), ask guildmates to craft me Impenetrable Julianos with heavy chest piece and medium legs, and there it is, I was ok to go into IC all by myself. It was not amazing setup, but it was a good start, given how little things I had access to at the time. I still have that setup and tried it in Cyro just recently (after a bit of transmutation, enchanting and gilding), and it still feels ok to play.


Then one early morning on one of the last days of event I went to do dailies, saw a guy fighting mobs, killed him with little resistance from his side and got 85k Tel var off him... I didn't know about campaign queue trick back then, so I took my time to caaaarefully sneak all the way home.

So I was rewarded pretty well for my efforts to honestly try PvP and not cry about PvP.

You ganked someone and proved the entire point about this being foolish.

[snip]

Half his Tel Var, to be clear.

Perhaps it's foolish, but we already have a currency for grinding mobs with no risk/reward or loss upon death: gold.

[edited to remove quote]

Vevvev

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You ganked someone and proved the entire point about this being foolish.

[snip]

Adding onto what Varanis pointed out you can immediately bank the half you still have and keep it safe and secure. People who keep dying but never bank the stones after death are just hemorrhaging their profits.

And what would they spend the stones on? There is not a whole lot of PvE focused things in there, and the stuff like the Housing Storage Chests can instead be bought for Writ Vouchers. It's mostly PvP focused items, Imperial City cosmetics, and crafting materials.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

VaranisArano wrote: »

.Events like this really go to show that PVE-only is not the Devs' ideal playstyle. They keep having events that encourage players to be willing to casually PVP for event rewards.

Imperial City Sewers is not casual PvP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

This person speaks the truth.

IC event happened to be my very first event when I just started playing eso, not even full month, I was only approaching CP200, had no paid DLCs, and even then I realized that going in with light pve setup is a no go. So instead of crying, I farmed myself rattlecage on jewelry and staves (I had no access to transmutation or jewelry crafting to modify other sets, so default healthy rings were nice boost to survivability), ask guildmates to craft me Impenetrable Julianos with heavy chest piece and medium legs, and there it is, I was ok to go into IC all by myself. It was not amazing setup, but it was a good start, given how little things I had access to at the time. I still have that setup and tried it in Cyro just recently (after a bit of transmutation, enchanting and gilding), and it still feels ok to play.


Then one early morning on one of the last days of event I went to do dailies, saw a guy fighting mobs, killed him with little resistance from his side and got 85k Tel var off him... I didn't know about campaign queue trick back then, so I took my time to caaaarefully sneak all the way home.

So I was rewarded pretty well for my efforts to honestly try PvP and not cry about PvP.

You ganked someone and proved the entire point about this being foolish.

[snip]

Totally irrelevant to the conversation about this event. It takes one quest to satisfy the daily. Any telvar you are risking is extremely minimal. If someone was walking around with 190k of telvar, they were an experienced farmer and new what they were getting into. He gets half the telvar because that is the risk/reward system that the devs designed. Nothing stops a player from banking telvar at any point.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets"

"So what this amounts to is saying "The Devs should never design event rewards that expect PVEers to put in the effort to play PvPvE zones as intended."

No. These are not the same thing. This rewording is extremely far from the original meaning.

The latter implies that people are suggesting that people should be able to exploit the game, or break Sewers in some way.

It's a strawman.

"Events should never force me out of my comfort zone."

Also a false reading. Saying that Battlegrounds is okay because progress cannot be blocked cannot in good faith be turned into "I don't want to be forced out of my comfort zone."

Please stop rewording arguments into strawman arguments that make the person you are talking to sound ridiculous and instead engage with the actual argument being made.

There is a massive difference between "Events should not require veteran level content" and "Events should never force players out of their comfort zone." PvP players being forced to do world bosses they don't enjoy is out of their comfort zone. PvE players forced to engage in CASUAL pvp is out of their comfort zone.

You have people try a variety of content at an introductory level. You don't need to force people to do veteran level content without the experience or playtime required to make it fun or engaging to accomplish that. And it's disingenuous to frame the months of playtime required to do veteran content as a "bit" of effort to make others seem lazy, which is what you're trying to do with this strawman.

Requiring sewers is not a lot different than requiring vss. And there is a lot of PvPers that would find it absolutely toxic to be told they just don't want to put in a "bit" of effort if they suggested adding tickets to nss.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

.Events like this really go to show that PVE-only is not the Devs' ideal playstyle. They keep having events that encourage players to be willing to casually PVP for event rewards.

Imperial City Sewers is not casual PvP.

It kinda is. Certainly that is a relative statement, but average player PVP skill in my experience is far lower in IC than in open world Cyro. I do agree that it does encourage some of the better gankers to play there (where as Cyro is usually more about bombing than ganking if that's your thing), but gankers just arent that hard to deal with.

Most are pretty darn squishy and will bail if they dont get you in their first burst. Your build alone should be enough to stop a gank burst. Learn to also fight back, and then gankers go from a threat to a reward. I LOVE getting ganked. Sure they get me once in a while, but when they don't, I am built to catch and kill them, especially when I walk into IC. It's also super easy to make a build that can turtle in a second or two if you have no intention of fighting back.

SeaGtGruff

Vevvev wrote: »

And what would they spend the stones on? There is not a whole lot of PvE focused things in there, and the stuff like the Housing Storage Chests can instead be bought for Writ Vouchers.

Wait, you can buy Housing Storage Chests with Tel Var? Not that I need to, because I bought all of them a long time ago with Writ Vouchers. But it's nice to know, so I can tell other players what their options are. (Just the other night a new player was asking about storage chests in zone chat.) I guess I really need to go check out those Tel Var merchants more often.

spartaxoxo

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

.Events like this really go to show that PVE-only is not the Devs' ideal playstyle. They keep having events that encourage players to be willing to casually PVP for event rewards.

Imperial City Sewers is not casual PvP.

It kinda is. Certainly that is a relative statement, but average player PVP skill in my experience is far lower in IC than in open world Cyro. I do agree that it does encourage some of the better gankers to play there (where as Cyro is usually more about bombing than ganking if that's your thing), but gankers just arent that hard to deal with.

It is not casual PVP because it requires a certain amount of proficiency to be able to get through there. Player skill is higher in Cyrodiil precisely because inexperienced players can learn from and engage meaningfully with experienced players, which results in a higher level of skill creation than sneaking around avoiding PVP altogether until you actually learn how to PVP (which is how Sewers functions). This is why most novices learn from BGs or Cyrodiil.

Or in other words, sewers requires you to already be good (via raw innate talent or experience) to engage meaningfully.. Cyrodiil and BGs don't. This makes them ideal training grounds for both new PvPers while still being good for Vet PvPers. Sewers is only good PvP for vet PvPers.

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

.Events like this really go to show that PVE-only is not the Devs' ideal playstyle. They keep having events that encourage players to be willing to casually PVP for event rewards.

Imperial City Sewers is not casual PvP.

It kinda is. Certainly that is a relative statement, but average player PVP skill in my experience is far lower in IC than in open world Cyro. I do agree that it does encourage some of the better gankers to play there (where as Cyro is usually more about bombing than ganking if that's your thing), but gankers just arent that hard to deal with.

It is not casual PVP because it requires a certain amount of proficiency to be able to get through there. Player skill is higher in Cyrodiil precisely because inexperienced players can learn from and engage meaningfully with experienced players, which results in a higher level of skill creation than sneaking around avoiding PVP altogether until you actually learn how to PVP (which is how Sewers functions). This is why most novices learn from BGs or Cyrodiil.

Or in other words, sewers requires you to already be good (via raw innate talent or experience) to engage meaningfully.. Cyrodiil and BGs don't. This makes them ideal training grounds for both new PvPers while still being good for Vet PvPers. Sewers is only good PvP for vet PvPers.

I killed every boss in the sewers (excluding banner bosses) on my PvE character when I was horrible at PvP. Now sometimes I like to drop into the sewers as far from home base as I can with 10k telvar and see if I can bop my way back home. The center area is really the only area where good PvP happens. PvP anywhere else in the sewers is intermittent. Only time this changes is when you get a few gankers during events trying to farm the entrances back into safe zones. There were four players trying to farm daggerfall entrance and they were dispatched fairly quick. Other than that I haven't seen any enemy players in the sewers and I have been in there quite a bit.

All kinds of players up top though. Imperial City used to be a great place to learn PvP. Was a large three faction fight almost every night and dying meant just a really quick spawn before jumping back into the fray again. Now it seems to be a place where mediocre PvP types hang out during events to try and pop a quester with some good group fights scattered in the zones during prime time. Outside of events really not much happens. Too bad. Used to be a lot of fun.

Critter

You shouldn't even have stealth/cloak ganking in the game. These types of losers thrive off killing new players or anyone that doesn't build into crit resistance and health. Gank builds like gank sorc literally break the game. Every ganker became one because they were tired of getting ganked themselves it's a cancer. Everyone's defense of this mechanic are the same "build should save you" or "learn to fight back" it's cringe and a low IQ take. If you've ever watched good gankers play you realize the only counter is 64 health.

kargen27

Critter wrote: »

You shouldn't even have stealth/cloak ganking in the game. These types of losers thrive off killing new players or anyone that doesn't build into crit resistance and health. Gank builds like gank sorc literally break the game. Every ganker became one because they were tired of getting ganked themselves it's a cancer. Everyone's defense of this mechanic are the same "build should save you" or "learn to fight back" it's cringe and a low IQ take. If you've ever watched good gankers play you realize the only counter is 64 health.

or situational awareness.

Franchise408

VaranisArano wrote: »

So how do you want ZOS to train players to PVP?

Why do they have to?

And why do we have to force this on PVE players who want nothing to do with PVP?

I am generally of the mind that PVP should absolutely have its own content and rewards, and I am generally in agreement that if you want rewards in the PVP zones, then you need to take on the risk of PVP. Afterall, 98% of this game is PVE oriented (and 60% of all stats are 50% made up), so I even though I am not a heavy PVP'er, I am of the mind that what little PVP content there is shouldn't be turned into PVE zones or content either.

But I am also of the opinion that preparing for PVP is not equivalent to PVP'ers having to do PVE for events / loot, and that the constant funneling of players into Imperial City - which nobody enjoys - is doing nothing positive for the game, the zone, or the community.

People who don't want to PVP are not going to be encouraged to join PVP by being funneled into a zone where they are constantly ganked by people far better equipped for killing other players but don't want the actual challenge / risk of a fair fight, and purposefully seek out and hunt down PVE'ers who can't defend themselves and are just trying to do a quest. It happened to me last night, and I am generally prepared, as even though I was stealthing my way to the sewer entrance, 2 DC's were grouped up in stealth at the entrance, and as soon as I came out of stealth to activate the gate, they ganked me and killed me. There was absolutely nothing I could have done to defend myself, as even though I was stealth, they waited until my stealth broke from activating the gate, attacked me to stop my load in, and killed me.

This experience will not bring more people into PVP. This will not "train" people to PVP. And honestly, people who want to PVP will get their training through doing it, and those that don't want to do it are only going to be further turned off by being funneled into a zone they don't want to be in and dealing with people they don't want to deal with, hunting and stalking them as defenseless prey for a little bit of AP.

Again, I am generally of the mind that rewards in PVP zones need to take on the risk of PVP, and that there absolutely should be content and rewards that are PVP.

But this isn't a PVP event. And funneling people into it is not helping anything. It is going to boost the population of the zone for a brief period of about a week and a half, a zone full of a bunch of people that can't stand having to deal with each other, and then as soon as the event is over, the zone will go back to being dead as dead, and nobody will have been inspired to take part in the content.

I just don't see the purpose this time around, and to be quite honest, I rolled my eyes when I learned that one of the event tickets was gated behind Imperial City. I'm a seasoned enough player that it won't bother me too much. I'll take a troll tank or a Nightblade into the city and get my tickets with either massive resistance / health protection, or stealth protection, but just because I'll survive doesn't mean it's a good idea to funnel people into this content that they want no part in. And the people that don't want to be here in the first place don't need to be "trained" to do it, because they don't want to be here anyways.

VaranisArano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets"

"So what this amounts to is saying "The Devs should never design event rewards that expect PVEers to put in the effort to play PvPvE zones as intended."

No. These are not the same thing. This rewording is extremely far from the original meaning.

The latter implies that people are suggesting that people should be able to exploit the game, or break Sewers in some way.

It's a strawman.

"Events should never force me out of my comfort zone."

Also a false reading. Saying that Battlegrounds is okay because progress cannot be blocked cannot in good faith be turned into "I don't want to be forced out of my comfort zone."

Please stop rewording arguments into strawman arguments that make the person you are talking to sound ridiculous and instead engage with the actual argument being made.

There is a massive difference between "Events should not require veteran level content" and "Events should never force players out of their comfort zone." PvP players being forced to do world bosses they don't enjoy is out of their comfort zone. PvE players forced to engage in CASUAL pvp is out of their comfort zone.

You have people try a variety of content at an introductory level. You don't need to force people to do veteran level content without the experience or playtime required to make it fun or engaging to accomplish that. And it's disingenuous to frame the months of playtime required to do veteran content as a "bit" of effort to make others seem lazy, which is what you're trying to do with this strawman.

Requiring sewers is not a lot different than requiring vss. And there is a lot of PvPers that would find it absolutely toxic to be told they just don't want to put in a "bit" of effort if they suggested adding tickets to nss.

I'm really not trying to strawman you, but I am addressing arguments I have heard during the many, many other complaint threads over the years. I'm sorry if that's bleeding over into this discussion. You may not be necessarily advancing this position, but there are players who have held the stance that any PVP at all is too hard and would qualify as "Vet Content." Thise players have asked that ZOS not require any PVP content from events.

Again, you may not be advancing that argument, but I'm bringing it up because other players do make that argument. I note that some players even made that argument when they have a PVE-only option to get tickets - as happened every past Imperial City Event.

And so I'm very skeptical of the argument that "Events should not require Imperial City because it's Vet Content." I've seen that same argument used to say "Events should not require any PVP or PvPvE content because it's "Vet Content", too hard, or requires too much investment." Maybe not by you, but certainly by other players over the years.


Now, your argument appears to be that Imperial City District Dailies are "Vet Content" and thus too hard to be required for event rewards like event tickets.

Again, I disagree. Now, maybe I would, since I'm comfortable bringing my Farmer in her PVE sprinter gear and bolting through the quest objectives, shrugging it off every time I die. I'm also comfortable bringing in my PVP healer and slugging it out through the dailies too. I've done dailies on characters who only concession to PVP was whatever impenetrable gear I could scrounge up.

But let's lay aside matters of personal comfort.

According to your argument, this would exclude Imperial City from the ticket requirements from Midyear Mayhem. I'm really not comfortable with PVE-only players dictating that a certain PVP area is "too hard" to be required during an event designed to celebrate all things PVP.

Second, how hard is it to get the tickets from the IC daily quests? Honestly, I'd put the dailies at about the same difficulty as the Cyrodiil town quests during an event. The quests are really easy - it's the enemy players who are the problem. And even when there are gankers and other enemies are about, there's plenty of opportunity to sneak, speed, group up, fight, or move to a different district to do your daily for tickets. So based on my assessment of difficulty, does that make Cyrodiil town quests "Vet Content"? And if it does, what does that mean for what PvPvE content can be required during Midyear Mayhem? Of the "easy" quests for PVEers, I'm pretty sure that's leaves us with just the Scouting Missions.

Third, what about building, gearing up, and practicing for PVP so you don't get destroyed in combat and you can PvPvE in the Districts? Isn't that a big investment for PVEers?

Sure, but it's not necessary to do so in order to get your event tickets. If you want to mix it up in the sewers hunting bosses, or capture Districts, or go farming Tel Var and extra loot from bosses, yeah, then it will help because you are actually fighting other players on a regular basis. But how is that any different from players who are doing the Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds portion of Midyear Mayhem? They too need to invest in a build and practice for the PVP portion if they want to do more than a town quest or scouting mission. And so once again, if it's too much investment to expect PVE-only players to make in order to get non-ticket event exclusive rewards from "Vet Content" Imperial City, are we going to say the same of Cyrodiil and Midyear Mayhem? You may not say it, but I've heard the "Why do I have to prepare for PVP just to get my event rewards?" from people during MYM too.


So I have a lot of qualms about "Events should not require Imperial City because it's Vet Content" both about the argument you are making and the way that applies to the other arguments I've seen players make. And if it seems like a strawman, sorry, but this discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. Every single Imperial City Event, these discussions happen.

Incidentally, I wouldn't mind ZOS requiring trials for an event ticket. But then, I'll note again that when players had the option to do WGT or ICP for tickets, they still complained that those were too hard. Even with the Undaunted Event, we still see players complaining that they are forced to group up or solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1. This business of excluding "Vet content" based on perceived difficulty isn't quite so simple.

TheImperfect

Poor pvp gankers, they gotta eat too 😂

EF321

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

This person speaks the truth.

IC event happened to be my very first event when I just started playing eso, not even full month, I was only approaching CP200, had no paid DLCs, and even then I realized that going in with light pve setup is a no go. So instead of crying, I farmed myself rattlecage on jewelry and staves (I had no access to transmutation or jewelry crafting to modify other sets, so default healthy rings were nice boost to survivability), ask guildmates to craft me Impenetrable Julianos with heavy chest piece and medium legs, and there it is, I was ok to go into IC all by myself. It was not amazing setup, but it was a good start, given how little things I had access to at the time. I still have that setup and tried it in Cyro just recently (after a bit of transmutation, enchanting and gilding), and it still feels ok to play.


Then one early morning on one of the last days of event I went to do dailies, saw a guy fighting mobs, killed him with little resistance from his side and got 85k Tel var off him... I didn't know about campaign queue trick back then, so I took my time to caaaarefully sneak all the way home.

So I was rewarded pretty well for my efforts to honestly try PvP and not cry about PvP.

You ganked someone and proved the entire point about this being foolish.

[snip]

First, you don't get all their tel var.

Second, not every kill in PvP is a gank. This was definitely not a gank. I was not sneaking up on him, I was no wearing any gank setup, in fact I was wearing trash off trait gear in the mix of blue and purple, I did not have any burst combo or anything, I definitely was not camping quest objective or skyshard location or spawn area or busy chokepoint. I literally was just passing by, saw an enemy, fought the dude in the open and won. He was even weaker than me, a CP200 noob in trash gear, and yet the guy was confident enough to walk around with large amount of stones and not mind his surrounding at all. But you see every kill as a gank, because you feel that you are entitled to complete your daily quest and every other player is there specifically to grief you?


When I myself farm mobs in IC these days, I keep looking around, have near 100% uptime of Flare under my feet, keeping major resolve up. This is the same thing as not standing in fire in a dungeon or trial. You can't be as careless as that guy and then complain about "gankers", who in fact are just random people doing the same farm as you do. And you just can't trust random enemy, if you decide not to attack them because they are "peacefully farming", there is no guarantee they won't burst you down as soon as you turn your back on them.


And the point is, that when you go to pvp zone in your pve outfit, and get killed over and over by more experienced pvp players, instead of whispering them "pls I only wanna do quest", just think that maybe instead you should get passable loadout for content you want get rewards from?

I do all sorts of stuff these days, dungeon, trials, pvp, housing. And I know that if will go in vKA with my PvP healer gear, I will get kicked. And if I queue into vet DLC pledge or mask farm dungeon as DD in my heavy armor and 2H setup, I will get kicked. Should I then whisper them "pls carry me I'm only pvp player trying to get loot", or should I bring my proper PvE setup, know basic content mechanics and have at least passable amount of DPS/Support and actually try to complete content ?


When I was low CP in IC, I absolutely was not expecting any mercy, was not hoping that enemy will just let me do all six quests. I tried, I failed, I asked myself what should I change to so I can get these cool rewards, I did some research, I did some farming while event was still on, and I came back with something that was still not good, but at least barely passable as starter pvp gear, with more relevant ability bar setup and learned to take necessary precautions at absolutely all times, and suddenly it turned from "Reeeee they won't let me" to "Hey, I can actually do stuff on my own now". I absolutely was not blowing up people left and right, stealing their tel var and girlfriends, but I could survive many gank attempts and fight back, because, surprise, many IC event gankers are squishy noobs themselves and are only capable of killing unaware pve players with some cheap combo they saw on youtube.

[edited to remove quote]

Oreyn_Bearclaw

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Sewers shouldn't be required to get tickets"

"So what this amounts to is saying "The Devs should never design event rewards that expect PVEers to put in the effort to play PvPvE zones as intended."

No. These are not the same thing. This rewording is extremely far from the original meaning.

The latter implies that people are suggesting that people should be able to exploit the game, or break Sewers in some way.

It's a strawman.

"Events should never force me out of my comfort zone."

Also a false reading. Saying that Battlegrounds is okay because progress cannot be blocked cannot in good faith be turned into "I don't want to be forced out of my comfort zone."

Please stop rewording arguments into strawman arguments that make the person you are talking to sound ridiculous and instead engage with the actual argument being made.

There is a massive difference between "Events should not require veteran level content" and "Events should never force players out of their comfort zone." PvP players being forced to do world bosses they don't enjoy is out of their comfort zone. PvE players forced to engage in CASUAL pvp is out of their comfort zone.

You have people try a variety of content at an introductory level. You don't need to force people to do veteran level content without the experience or playtime required to make it fun or engaging to accomplish that. And it's disingenuous to frame the months of playtime required to do veteran content as a "bit" of effort to make others seem lazy, which is what you're trying to do with this strawman.

Requiring sewers is not a lot different than requiring vss. And there is a lot of PvPers that would find it absolutely toxic to be told they just don't want to put in a "bit" of effort if they suggested adding tickets to nss.

I might come around to that way of thinking if ZOS said, Deposit 20k Telvar for an event ticket. They aren't. They are saying do a single daily quest, which in the vast majority of cases can be done without engaging in combat of any type with a little patience.

There is no risk here, even if you do get ganked a few times. If you go in with no TelVar and come out with event tickets and no telvar, what did you lose? A daily quest in IC is nowhere close to VSS in terms of difficulty or commitment. You complain about strawman arguments, how about false equivalencies?

They only thing at stake is some time, maybe 10-15minutes, and the players pride/ego. Some people can't handle dying, I get it, but its a game. Ultimately, that is the driving force behind these threads. Pride and Ego.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

In the time between these posts, I logged in on a PVE trial toon, ported into IC, went to a zone controlled by another faction (to make it "difficult"), completed a quest which involved clicking on 4 ballistas, a barrel of oil, and a forge, and walked all the way back to my base. Total time in game, 5 minutes and 23 seconds. I did not use a single offensive ability or ever engage in combat, and of course, I did not die. Got tickets (or rather, a single ticket).

Going to time Wrothgar, BRB.

Ported to Wrothgar, grabbed quest, ported to friend, touched 4 obelisks, ported to friend, ported near boss, killed a titan in 4 seconds with 20 other players, ported to a friend, turned in quest. Total time in game, 7 minutes and 9 seconds. Engaged in combat 3 times along the way.

Seriously people, what are we even talking about here? It's like ZOS asked for your first born in exchange for an event ticket. This stuff is trivial, and its for something completely cosmetic.

I don't even follow events that closely, didn't do IC yesterday, and have enough tickets for what I need already from the vendor this time around. At this rate I will have completed yet another spare pet (have a pet and fragments for another), have all the frags available, and enough tickets to buy the last frag when it drops.



And finally, logged into my PVP toon. Picked up all 6 daily's, completed all in 25 minutes and 41 seconds. Died 3 times. Came out plus 2500 telvar or so. This just really isnt that difficult...

Vevvev

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

And what would they spend the stones on? There is not a whole lot of PvE focused things in there, and the stuff like the Housing Storage Chests can instead be bought for Writ Vouchers.

Wait, you can buy Housing Storage Chests with Tel Var? Not that I need to, because I bought all of them a long time ago with Writ Vouchers. But it's nice to know, so I can tell other players what their options are. (Just the other night a new player was asking about storage chests in zone chat.) I guess I really need to go check out those Tel Var merchants more often.

Yep! 100,000 for a 30 slot chest, and 200,000 for a 60 slot chest.

Pauwer

Go on your tank and you don't get ganked.

Also, you don't have to IC at all, if you don't want to. I don't go doing any wrorthgar quests or stuff like that. Ew

RaikaNA

BlueRaven wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

Do you think all the pve players complaining here are in trial groups? Honestly, do you really believe that?

I think players who have access to vet trial gear that can deal serious damage are not the ones complaining about being ganked.

All I'm saying is that their Alcast builds aren't good for PvP and IC... and yes I'm saying that they're in trial gear because why else are they complaining that they're getting killed by gankers? Their setup is too squishy and weak... I kid you not... Back when the event was occurring for Cyrodill.. I bear witness a Pver with relequen gear in Cyrodill trying to PvP. I'm certain he was getting more deaths than actual kills on that day.

spartaxoxo

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm really not trying to strawman you, but I am addressing arguments I have heard during the many, many other complaint threads over the years. I'm sorry if that's bleeding over into this discussion. You may not be necessarily advancing this position, but there are players who have held the stance that any PVP at all is too hard and would qualify as "Vet Content." Thise players have asked that ZOS not require any PVP content from events.

I am my own person, and it is frustrating to have words put into my mouth because I'm a PvE'er. Arguments should be discussed on their own merit, no matter who is making them. And the arguments you respond to and attribute to another person should be the argument that they are making. When you reword it into your head in that way, you miss fair points and good discussion, and you treat the person you're having the conversation with as an enemy to be defeated rather than a human you're talking to. That's really only appropriate when you're discussing something people say in general, rather than rewording a specific person's argument.

And so I'm very skeptical of the argument that "Events should not require Imperial City because it's Vet Content." I've seen that same argument used to say "Events should not require any PVP or PvPvE content because it's "Vet Content", too hard, or requires too much investment." Maybe not by you, but certainly by other players over the years.

Okay, but I'm not those people and don't agree. I think there are different kinds of content levels, aimed at multiple different types of people. I am opposed to making content that is supposed to serve as an enticement to get people to try new things being content that is not introductory level. It ticks people off and leaves awful first impressions, it creates a user experience where they aren't engaging in meaningful gameplay which is generally not fun, and causes a tons of complaints. Some of them overly exaggerated and over the top, and some of them valid.
.

Now, your argument appears to be that Imperial City District Dailies are "Vet Content" and thus too hard to be required for event rewards like event tickets.

Again, I disagree. Now, maybe I would, since I'm comfortable bringing my Farmer in her PVE sprinter gear and bolting through the quest objectives, shrugging it off every time I die. I'm also comfortable bringing in my PVP healer and slugging it out through the dailies too. I've done dailies on characters who only concession to PVP was whatever impenetrable gear I could scrounge up.

But let's lay aside matters of personal comfort.

According to your argument, this would exclude Imperial City from the ticket requirements from Midyear Mayhem. I'm really not comfortable with PVE-only players dictating that a certain PVP area is "too hard" to be required during an event designed to celebrate all things PVP.

PvP players aren't required to do vet PVE, because their play experience matters as to how that is introduced. Why should PvE players not be taken into consideration the other way around? Vet content isn't suitable to beginners, and that's okay. There's plenty of ways to include vet content without making it mandatory. It would NOT exclude them offering tickets from those dailies during MYM or any other PvP event. It only requires them to not to make them required for the ticket. They can give options.

"1 ticket for doing Sewers or Cyrodiil daily, 1 ticket from completing your first battleground" isn't that different than "1 ticket from either Crag or Wrothgar daily." Frankly, there's plenty of experienced PvPers that would prefer that too. As I know plenty that like Cyro but not Sewers, or vice versa. If they could get their ticket doing the daily they actually like, that would benefit them too.

Second, how hard is it to get the tickets from the IC daily quests? Honestly, I'd put the dailies at about the same difficulty as the Cyrodiil town quests during an event. The quests are really easy - it's the enemy players who are the problem. And even when there are gankers and other enemies are about, there's plenty of opportunity to sneak, speed, group up, fight, or move to a different district to do your daily for tickets. So based on my assessment of difficulty, does that make Cyrodiil town quests "Vet Content"? And if it does, what does that mean for what PvPvE content can be required during Midyear Mayhem? Of the "easy" quests for PVEers, I'm pretty sure that's leaves us with just the Scouting Missions.

You are also an experienced PvPer that enjoys PvP. This is one of the single most complained about (if not the single most complained about) thing across all events, it gets more complaints than quests in Cyrodiil. That should tell you that objectively these players find it hard enough that they are hating their experience. That the common advice is to learn to play and build specifically for the activity, should tell you that they are hating their experience because they are novices being asked to do content they aren't ready to do meaningfully, and thus are having a bad time. Veteran content is content for experienced players. It's bad as an introduction, and that's fine. There's plenty of ways to make it rewarding for the players that enjoy it without requiring novices to engage in it.

Sure, but it's not necessary to do so in order to get your event tickets.[/quote}

It's only unnecessary if you engage in an exploit, which doesn't allow you to meaningfully engage with the content but instead forces you to play it in a likely unintended way. Otherwise, it's very easy to keep someone from getting their tickets. Which is why there is a lot of people that complain. They have an awful experience getting their things done and can only rely on either being carried, going there late at night, or building specifically for that task. They cannot engage meaningfully with the content, no matter how briefly, while having a non-stealth PvE build, which is the majority of the PvE players builds. Hence, all the complaints.

So I have a lot of qualms about "Events should not require Imperial City because it's Vet Content" both about the argument you are making and the way that applies to the other arguments I've seen players make. And if it seems like a strawman, sorry, but this discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. Every single Imperial City Event, these discussions happen.

Incidentally, I wouldn't mind ZOS requiring trials for an event ticket. But then, I'll note again that when players had the option to do WGT or ICP for tickets, they still complained that those were too hard. Even with the Undaunted Event, we still see players complaining that they are forced to group up or solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1. This business of excluding "Vet content" based on perceived difficulty isn't quite so simple.

Most of the time, there are valid arguments on both sides of these kinds of discussions. Arguments should be evaluated on their own merits, not on who's side they help.

kargen27

"Okay, but I'm not those people and don't agree. I think there are different kinds of content levels, aimed at multiple different types of people. I am opposed to making content that is supposed to serve as an enticement and advertisement for content, and bring new people in, to be content that is not introductory level."

Imperial City is about as introductory as you are going to get for PvP especially during events. You can hang during the event usually find a group to either join or tag along with. Help take and defend a few flags while completing the daily. If you die just respawn and jump back in. Fairly simple.
It is easier to avoid PvP in Cyrodiil doing those quests but avoiding PvP isn't really an introduction. Getting popped in Cyrodiil can mean a really long ride back. Defending a keep might be a bit more beginner friendly than Imperial City but not much.

BlueRaven

RaikaNA wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

So let me get this straight... For all the Pvers whos complaining that they're getting killed by gankers in IC during this event....


If I come to your PvE guild and ask to join your core group so that I can get completions in DLC vTrials.... so that I can get the skins and all the goodies... are you going to ask me for my latest parse screenshot to prove that I can hold my weight first? Are you going to force me to waste precious pots on a DPS parse dummy so that I can satisfy the prerequisites? You want to vet me out first by proving myself to you and the guild...

I come to your playground.. I must follow your rules... your prerequisites...

You come to my playground.. you gotta play by my rules... Tired of getting 1 shot? Come to IC prepared next time.. don't be prancing around with your trial gear... that vMA /Medusa inferno staff isn't going to kill me.

You enter PvP grounds... learn how to PvP... Don't complain on the forums that you're getting 1 shot.

Do you think all the pve players complaining here are in trial groups? Honestly, do you really believe that?

I think players who have access to vet trial gear that can deal serious damage are not the ones complaining about being ganked.

All I'm saying is that their Alcast builds aren't good for PvP and IC... and yes I'm saying that they're in trial gear because why else are they complaining that they're getting killed by gankers? Their setup is too squishy and weak... I kid you not... Back when the event was occurring for Cyrodill.. I bear witness a Pver with relequen gear in Cyrodill trying to PvP. I'm certain he was getting more deaths than actual kills on that day.

The point is if you think all pve players run trials you are sadly mistaken. Most pve players don't set foot in a trial, even on normal. Most of the pve players doing the dailies are not even in dungeon gear, rather they are at best in a non-ledgendary non-meta crafted set.

Most players play this game solo and are not great at dispensing damage, hence the introduction of companions. They have no "playground" for you to come to, in fact look at the complaints about the vendor/auction systems in the game, great amounts of players are not even in guilds.

You make it sound that if a player is not playing pvp they are in some trial guild, with minimum dps requirements. Most players are casual, meaning they do not follow build guides, and are solo to boot. I know of people in my guilds who have never been in a public dungeon much less an "actual" dungeon.

spartaxoxo

kargen27 wrote: »

"Okay, but I'm not those people and don't agree. I think there are different kinds of content levels, aimed at multiple different types of people. I am opposed to making content that is supposed to serve as an enticement and advertisement for content, and bring new people in, to be content that is not introductory level."

Imperial City is about as introductory as you are going to get for PvP especially during events. You can hang during the event usually find a group to either join or tag along with. Help take and defend a few flags while completing the daily. If you die just respawn and jump back in. Fairly simple.
It is easier to avoid PvP in Cyrodiil doing those quests but avoiding PvP isn't really an introduction. Getting popped in Cyrodiil can mean a really long ride back. Defending a keep might be a bit more beginner friendly than Imperial City but not much.

It's significantly more beginner friendly. The wide open map rather than cramped quarters mean it's easier to pick fights with people your own size. Sieging a Keep attracts a lot of people on both sides, and there's safety in numbers. Meanwhile it's generally more lucrative for big groups not to fight each other, so skirmishes between the two side are only occasional. Resulting in novices just not doing the district an enemy group controls. It's harder to be ganked in Cyrodiil than in Imperial City, which requires knowledge of how to defend yourself against stealth mechanics. It's basically designed to force people to know what they are doing. The end result is designed to reward encourage small group PvP between experienced players, and gankers. And that's pretty much who uses it.

While Cyrodiil has different objectives that naturally separates people of differing skill. I have many good 1v1s in towns in Cyrodiil that didn't end up being 1vXs because I was battling another PvEer and the more experienced PvPers were off sieging keeps. I have learned way way more in Cyro and BG than Sewers because as someone inexperienced, most of my time in Sewers is spent either dead or doing PvE.

Meanwhile, in Sewers, the best way I found to tackle those is bring my nightblade who is built entirely into stealth and just avoid PvP entirely. I got it down to a science so much that I even can place geodes on the skeletons in memorial district often without aggroing any of the mobs. Treating it like a high stakes heist might be fun, but it's not really PVP.

FlopsyPrince

Darrett wrote: »

By the way, this issue is much bigger than the event. PvP players assumably want people to get involved in PvP, right?

Having the barrier to entry so high that people need to acquire full specific armor sets and respec their existing character in order to avoid being 1 shot is counterproductive.

If you want people to participate, it can’t be as unapproachable as it is now. This isn’t to say a group won’t still roll up on an individual player and kill them quickly, but there’s a significant issue with survivability between the top and bottom end of the player base.

It’s equivalent to dropping all new players into a vet dungeon and telling them to figure it out, except that the encounters are randomized so you can’t methodically learn.

People won’t spend the time when their interaction with the content is that off-putting, and judging by how PvE players view it in this thread, it’s currently very off-putting.

Exactly this.

The few times I have somewhat enjoyed playing PvP in games was when I was playing against others who sucked as much as I do.

That is not true here at all.

BTW, You have to do an IC quest for one of the tickets. Doing 1 in Wrothgar and 1 in Craglorn does not give a second ticket.

Sephyr

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In the time between these posts, I logged in on a PVE trial toon, ported into IC, went to a zone controlled by another faction (to make it "difficult"), completed a quest which involved clicking on 4 ballistas, a barrel of oil, and a forge, and walked all the way back to my base. Total time in game, 5 minutes and 23 seconds. I did not use a single offensive ability or ever engage in combat, and of course, I did not die. Got tickets (or rather, a single ticket).

Going to time Wrothgar, BRB.

Ported to Wrothgar, grabbed quest, ported to friend, touched 4 obelisks, ported to friend, ported near boss, killed a titan in 4 seconds with 20 other players, ported to a friend, turned in quest. Total time in game, 7 minutes and 9 seconds. Engaged in combat 3 times along the way.

Seriously people, what are we even talking about here? It's like ZOS asked for your first born in exchange for an event ticket. This stuff is trivial, and its for something completely cosmetic.

I don't even follow events that closely, didn't do IC yesterday, and have enough tickets for what I need already from the vendor this time around. At this rate I will have completed yet another spare pet (have a pet and fragments for another), have all the frags available, and enough tickets to buy the last frag when it drops.



And finally, logged into my PVP toon. Picked up all 6 daily's, completed all in 25 minutes and 41 seconds. Died 3 times. Came out plus 2500 telvar or so. This just really isnt that difficult...

Chiming in with a similar experience. Logged into all three of my accounts to test as well after seeing your post and got them done within half an hour (including the wait time to get in the poplocked campaign) and completed the dailies without having to engage in PvP (aka; fight back to do the quest). Two accounts don't have Wrothgar, so I'm cycling through those now which are ironically taking me longer to do, but while I wait for people to respond for a Spellscar group (I like variety), I'm writing this up.