Wrong Event Name - It Should Be "Feed the Gankers!"

SeaGtGruff

With regard to IC being a "dead" zone between the MYM (or are we calling it WSM now?) and IC events-- to be fair, this is also the tendency we've seen in a lot of the other zones where events are held. IMHO, it doesn't necessarily mean there's an issue of some kind with the zone. There are so many zones to play in that if the player population were divided evenly between the zones, and further divided into multiple instances of each zone, then I think it's bound to look like zones are underpopulated. The main exceptions would be popular quest hubs and areas where events are being held.

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Which server was that on? PC or console? I've been playing in IC pretty regularly on PC NA and PC EU since the last event, and haven't experienced that level of harassment. Sure, I've been killed numerous times, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as you've described, which makes me wonder if it's the difference between PC and console, or perhaps just different times of day?

Lumsdenml

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

With regard to IC being a "dead" zone between the MYM (or are we calling it WSM now?) and IC events-- to be fair, this is also the tendency we've seen in a lot of the other zones where events are held. IMHO, it doesn't necessarily mean there's an issue of some kind with the zone. There are so many zones to play in that if the player population were divided evenly between the zones, and further divided into multiple instances of each zone, then I think it's bound to look like zones are underpopulated. The main exceptions would be popular quest hubs and areas where events are being held.

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Which server was that on? PC or console? I've been playing in IC pretty regularly on PC NA and PC EU since the last event, and haven't experienced that level of harassment. Sure, I've been killed numerous times, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as you've described, which makes me wonder if it's the difference between PC and console, or perhaps just different times of day?

Sounds like pc na. That's what I play and have seen all of this. Heck, I've done most of it!

I do find that the mistake most pve players make when going into pvp is they have the wrong expectation as to the skill level required for pvp. Obviously there are bad players in pvp, but I'd say the average difficulty would be on the same level as trials. Pve players know the difficulty of that content and don't expect to go into a vet trial solo and blind, but go into pvp unprepared and solo and expect to be hard to kill. And when they die easily they get discouraged and quit.

KovalskyNestor

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

With regard to IC being a "dead" zone between the MYM (or are we calling it WSM now?) and IC events-- to be fair, this is also the tendency we've seen in a lot of the other zones where events are held. IMHO, it doesn't necessarily mean there's an issue of some kind with the zone. There are so many zones to play in that if the player population were divided evenly between the zones, and further divided into multiple instances of each zone, then I think it's bound to look like zones are underpopulated. The main exceptions would be popular quest hubs and areas where events are being held.

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Which server was that on? PC or console? I've been playing in IC pretty regularly on PC NA and PC EU since the last event, and haven't experienced that level of harassment. Sure, I've been killed numerous times, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as you've described, which makes me wonder if it's the difference between PC and console, or perhaps just different times of day?

PC EU. It was okay before, I don't mind the gankers, I know what I'm getting into, but I wasn't expecting that kind experience, but then again it's multiplayer game.

KovalskyNestor

Lumsdenml wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Interesting. Is there pve content that you had to put work into to complete? A vet dlc hm dungeon or trial? Something that kept killing you for more than 20min before you completed it?

Yes there was, I'm not getting your point though.

FlopsyPrince

etchedpixels wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Having an event that leaves a significant number of players coming out of it thinking that so many other players are _______ (your term here) is not good for the game in the slightest.

You need to separate the characters and the players. IC is brutish and nasty, that doesn't mean the people who play there are.

You are how you play.

VaranisArano wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Folkb wrote: »

I'll say the same thing I keep repeating. Pvpve doesn't work in this game because to go from one to another requires a completely different bult character. Pvp and pve don't flow back and forth seamlessly in ESO due to the priority of completely different stats being important and imo is what keeps this game from being amazing.

On the bright side the rewards for this event are pretty meh so I'm fine with 1 ticket per day.

At some point ill have a dedicated pvp toon but thats going to take a while.

PvPvE works just fine when you prepare for the PVP portion.

I'd be really curious to see how PVE would have to be redesigned to cope with being able to transition seamlessly to PVP.

If it were just the stats and the gear, then ZOS could offer us "builds" or something where we could easily and cheaply swap back and forth.

But it's not just the stats. If you want to jump into Battlegrounds or Cyrodiil PVP, it quickly becomes apparent that it's a whole different set of tactics. One of the basic things that PVEers miss is that you have to proactively defend, buff, and heal yourself, preferably before you get into combat, because a smart opponent is not going to let you recover with an "Oh shoot" heal once they have you in execute range. One thing I had to learn as a MagDK was that I couldn't take my Stamina for granted - I don't have much more of it than a PVE build would, but I'm always watching to make sure I don't run low because I have to be able to dodge roll or break free instantly. If I can't, I'm dead.

Those are just two examples. My experience with the godly pre-Morrowind Blazeplar was that I can slap on the meta PVP gear and get all my stats in order with all the right skills, but until I learn the tactics for using that gear against a real live intelligent player, I'm going to get my butt handed to me again and again.

I don't know how to take that experience of fighting a real live intelligent player in PVE so that players can transition seamlessly without seriously changing how PVE works.

And I'm not sure that the PVE community would really appreciate having "their" preferred gameplay drastically altered in order to seamlessly transition them to content that plenty of them have no interest in doing except when there are event rewards.


That being said, good luck with your dedicated PVP toon!

Most people don't "prepare properly" for PvE, but can still have an enjoyable time. Requiring extra expense like this only to aid gankers is not a good thing for ZOS, the point of me starting this thread that clearly has quite a bit of interest.

Nah, given that players spending time to get gear and/or time to get gold to get gear is kind of one of the major points of MMOs, I'm pretty sure that ZOS really doesn't mind that PVEers ought to prepare for PVP if they want the non-event ticket rewards like Tel Var, boss kills, etc. I've gotten event tickets on PVE builds a number of times, as long as I'm persistent when I die, so it's hardly necessary to invest in order to get those.

Plus, ah, ZOS keeps running this event year after year. So even if it's causing them problems that players have to prepare for PVP, clearly it's not enough for them to stop running it.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Having an event that leaves a significant number of players coming out of it thinking that so many other players are _______ (your term here) is not good for the game in the slightest.

That's on you for thinking that players who are playing in allowed, intended, and designed-for ways are "insert your term here".

The name you insert in your blank says more about you than it does them.

And if you're saying that events that leave players thinking badly of their fellow players are not good for the game, then I look forward to you being consistent with your stance during the Undaunted Event when we hear all about fake roles and people who rush through dungeons.

Events celebrate various areas of content in ESO. Every event doesn't appeal to everyone and they don't have to.


Finally, have you considered that what your thread is actually telling ZOS is something like "I complain bitterly about Imperial City but I'll totally do it if you put event rewards in it?" Because that's the real message that the people asking ZOS to eliminate the IC Event and then talking about how they got their ticket or snuck through a District for their daily are unintentionally sending. It's not exactly putting one's money where one's mouth is.

If a "significant number of players" said "Hell no, we won't go" and actually did it, and didn't buy their missing tickets from the Crown Store, maybe then ZOS would get the picture that players don't like IC so much that they'd rather miss out on event rewards period than go there and they don't want their avoidance of PVP monetized.

Judging by the fact that ZOS keeps running the event year after year despite the complaint threads by you and others, my assumption is that, instead, a "significant number of players" are willingly heading off to Imperial City for event rewards whether they enjoy the experience or not. FOMO works, and threads like this are an exercise in proving it.

What I do or don't do has very little impact on ZOS. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

FlopsyPrince

Jura23 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

love the event, i spend hours waiting for ppl to return from molag with my share of the telvar

I'm happy there are ppl camping sewers base entrance during these events. Nothing is better than ganking the gankers.

Why would anyone who plays this run back to their base? Is that common with experienced players?

Lumsdenml wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Interesting. Is there pve content that you had to put work into to complete? A vet dlc hm dungeon or trial? Something that kept killing you for more than 20min before you completed it?

The ganking is on top of the effort. Completing quests and other achievements in IC requires effort without that.

Lumsdenml

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Interesting. Is there pve content that you had to put work into to complete? A vet dlc hm dungeon or trial? Something that kept killing you for more than 20min before you completed it?

Yes there was, I'm not getting your point though.

My point is that there is difficult content in this game. I was wondering why you were more willing to put the time and effort into completing one aspect and not the other?

Lumsdenml

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

love the event, i spend hours waiting for ppl to return from molag with my share of the telvar

I'm happy there are ppl camping sewers base entrance during these events. Nothing is better than ganking the gankers.

Why would anyone who plays this run back to their base? Is that common with experienced players?

Lumsdenml wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

As a strict pve player I always thought that people kinda overeacted to gankers in pvp. Until one day I decided to "explore" IC a bit more and do some achievements. I was not just ganked but there were people deliberately following me long distances and sweating to kill me. Camping outside in our sewers and hiding in the corners to kill you. Camping at the quest objectives.Taunting when you get killed and so on..
The amount of time and dedication they put to kill you just for the "lulz" is very annoying and then they wonder why people dislike pvp and IC in general.
After experiencing that all in just 20 minutes of playing, I felt horrible and mad.

Interesting. Is there pve content that you had to put work into to complete? A vet dlc hm dungeon or trial? Something that kept killing you for more than 20min before you completed it?

The ganking is on top of the effort. Completing quests and other achievements in IC requires effort without that.

It's all the same place. Does not a vet trial have added levels of difficulty to get achievements?

Darrett

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Sounds like pc na. That's what I play and have seen all of this. Heck, I've done most of it!

I do find that the mistake most pve players make when going into pvp is they have the wrong expectation as to the skill level required for pvp. Obviously there are bad players in pvp, but I'd say the average difficulty would be on the same level as trials. Pve players know the difficulty of that content and don't expect to go into a vet trial solo and blind, but go into pvp unprepared and solo and expect to be hard to kill. And when they die easily they get discouraged and quit.

I think it’s because there is no real easing into the difficulty. In PvE you can engage with the overworld content, move into public dungeons, then normal dungeons, vet, vet dlc, arenas, and then trials.

You can incrementally get better and see the effects your improvement has. In PvP, the curve is non-existent and you get instantly one-shot even when wearing “recommended” gear like Pariah. It’s not something that encourages continued engagement with the content because there’s no progression path for new participants.

Reduce the power curve significantly and you’ll get more participation.

furiouslog

Darrett wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Sounds like pc na. That's what I play and have seen all of this. Heck, I've done most of it!

I do find that the mistake most pve players make when going into pvp is they have the wrong expectation as to the skill level required for pvp. Obviously there are bad players in pvp, but I'd say the average difficulty would be on the same level as trials. Pve players know the difficulty of that content and don't expect to go into a vet trial solo and blind, but go into pvp unprepared and solo and expect to be hard to kill. And when they die easily they get discouraged and quit.

I think it’s because there is no real easing into the difficulty. In PvE you can engage with the overworld content, move into public dungeons, then normal dungeons, vet, vet dlc, arenas, and then trials.

You can incrementally get better and see the effects your improvement has. In PvP, the curve is non-existent and you get instantly one-shot even when wearing “recommended” gear like Pariah. It’s not something that encourages continued engagement with the content because there’s no progression path for new participants.

Reduce the power curve significantly and you’ll get more participation.

I think that they've already done this a bit with the no-proc in no-cp campaigns. Yes, you will still have a steeper curve than trials and dungeons, but that gets mitigated by finding a guild that does regular PVP and grouping up for raids.

When you do trials, they are highly scripted events, and mechanics are taught. There are analogues for that in PVP. If you go into Cyro or IC as a solo player expecting to do fine without having learned strategies and tactics from more experienced players, yes, you will fail repeatedly because you are learning lessons on your own. There is no guide, because engagements are player-driven. There is no transfer of knowledge to expedite your progression and understanding of the game. You basically need a mentor, which requires more effort to find than PVE because it's taken for granted that someone will be leading and teaching mechanics when you join a trial, and the scripts are available all over the internet. When I join vet trial PUGs in Craglorn, I usually give it a 50/50 chance that we'll actually clear, because of the lack of coordination and leadership. I can usually tell after the first pull if it's going to be a dumpster fire or not. Going in to PVP without a plan, coordination, or understanding of strategies and builds is just as bad as that, which is why most people perceive a large gap between PVE and PVP. If your only experience with trials was the disorganized PUG experience, you'd be making the same criticisms of PVE.

I got picked up by a more serious PVP guild because they sat and watched once as I soloed a resource. I asked for a group invite, they invited me to Discord, and I followed instructions. At the end of that, I got a guild invite. The amount that I learned from those guys and the fun that we had together is really when I got into the PVP aspects of the game, but without that random piece of luck, I'd probably still be struggling with it. That experience inspired me to make it a feature of our social guild to teach PVP to PVErs in order to get more people into that part of the game, because my takeaway was that it was the only way to improve progression on that curve.

I don't think that the learning curve is non-existent, it just has different parameters and requirements to move along it, and it requires will and effort on your part to get there. Farming an Alcast build will not make you ready for vet trials just because it's a vet trial build. There's a lot more to it. Likewise, you can't just thrown on Heartlands and Pariah and expect to do well in a dynamic PVP setting.