T(G)ank Heavy armor, open letter to Combat Team

Lapin_Logic

I don't know if your "Set Efficiency Calculator" is bugged but I just wanted to remind you of the Trinity of Tank, Healing and Gank.

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

xylena_lazarow

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

but have the Heal component be the same

PvP healing procs need to be gutted just as hard. Free healing leads to endless low effort stalling, which aside from being bad gameplay, leads to larger and larger groups stacking, which leads to more and more lag... never mind the potential for abuse by optimized ball groups, who will likely approach the threshold to which they are mathematically invulnerable to the random noise damage of a literally pop-capped faction stack of disorganized pugs.

BlueRaven

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

xylena_lazarow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

Many PvPers support separating changes in PvE and PvP. At this point I'd rather see them revert all proc changes, extend the Cyro set bans to u31 like originally planned, and work on a better PvP solution that won't disrupt PvE.

Lapin_Logic

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.


...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

I have 4 PVE Tank toons, with the new CP system you LITERALLY just change 4 blue passives to swap from tank to damage CP, add a set of Jewlery with Spell/ Weapon damage and those terrifying overland Squirrels should melt even without compromising your 50k health and 33 k resists to tank mobs that do 2k Dps.

"Tanks" are meant to do "Lower damage", If the only difference between a Tank and a DPS was that the DPS was stupid for not running all heavy with health enchants then there would not be a need for light armor, it is a trade off doing damage for taking damage.

You are also overlooking the new "Companions" system, you will be able to have a pocket 10k DPS so you can go make a pot of coffee while the game plays its self.

You asked about achieving the goals without affecting PVE, I have seen many people suggest "Battle Spirit" nerfing procs, thing is we are already getting a No Proc campaign (don't know if we are getting No Proc Imperial City) so it seems odd to also nerf Procs in the Proc areas but do it in a blanket way that nerfs light and medium DPS proc sets, the only other way of altering things is to alter the specific sets, Sorry if it effects your convenience of having a "God" as a character who can't change 7 items

Anyron

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

It could be nice they split pve and pvp but we all know it wont happen.

This is also pvp game. All these whining is because we want to play fairly and not just "oh, stamden. Lets go away i dont want to fight that".
It could be same for pve but npcs cannot go here to complain about overpowered skills.


Anyway, you can still swap your sets to make your tank a dps. Its not like you couldn't do overland since you can do it just by spamming light attacks.
And even on some dlc area worldboss, if you struggle, you can use those tank CPs to your advantage.

You can keep your health atributes too. It can come handy if your in solo arena or whatever

Urzigurumash

What the sets need is a large self-snare like Ironblood. Nobody turns around and runs away from a fight because they see Alkosh or Vanguard's Challenge procced on them. It just doesn't work. You're getting CC'd on cooldown in every fight anyhow, there's only so much room for a CC-focused tank. It's relevant but not relevant enough to occupy the entire "tank" spectrum if we are going to impose this trinity on PvP.

These sets should function like an inverse Vicious Death. We saw how it worked on Harbinger's. Dying to a Harbinger tank is analogous to dying to Vicious Death. No, they're not "fair", but they punish players for zerging and loose tactics.

The way the heal works on Crimson is another issue, but the idea of Defense-scaled Damage isn't even "imbalanced" when there's Offensive Stat-scaled Healing - another violation of this alleged trinity.

Excelsus

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

This. They made procs unable to crit which was enough to mostly invalidate dps procs in pve, sad, they're the fun flavor sets that change how you play and give lore/rp/color to your toon. They made procs have a delay, telegraph, dot. Now they're making them scale. This is the 3rd attempted proc nerf for pvp. There should just be a battlespirit, trait, campaign wide rule against procs. As it stands pve tanks and healers are losing a ton of value on proc sets. Dps tanks were dumpstered entirely. Pve dps still has no use for procs mostly cuz of the no crit rule and for all that procs are still op in pvp. Some level of seperate balancing needs to occur. Pve dps gearing is horribly stale. Most dps dont even use a monster set anymore. Relequin and Siroria have been meta for 3 years and running paired with whatever set gives the most crit atm. I'm tired of seeing red circles and cyclones.

stefj68

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

funny you remember me if my 1st retired character, a necromancer tank... grind him 1 to 50 then up to 140 champions points took me 3 months ... i remmeber doing dolmen and taking me 30-35min each to solo... then i see 1 guy a dps, coming and doing it in 5... i roll a new character a dps, and level him under a week and grind last 20 cp to get to 160... then i said never i will go back on my tank, takes forever to kill something...

now that i see tank that do some damage scale up with max health i say ohhhhhh nice... then i see people wanting it to get nerf... poor pve tank

Sangwyne

Another PvP tank complaint thread? You guys are really beating a dead horse at this point.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Crimson is 8k/8 seconds. That's 1k/s, same with Leeching and Bahraha's, halved to 500 DPS in PvP. It's time for people to stop riding the "tanks bad" train and learn to slot a heal over time. DPS sets do far more damage, and offensive stats scale your healing from procs and skills too. If you want tank damage to be gutted, DD's free survivability should be gutted too. Start with Vigor and shields scaling off Stamina and Magicka. Can't have your cake and eat ours too.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

500 DPS= Full Gank build levels of burst damage. Right. Tanks have to invest in armor and health separately, and neither grants damage. Meanwhile, every last PvP build invests in just ONE stat, Stamina, and gets damage from skills, healing from skills, shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from blocking, rolling and breaking free. And now healing from proc sets as well. You want to talk about "too efficient", start there.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

...90% damage nerf. I will never speak poorly of ZOS balance decisions again.

Why are DDs allowed to get away with stacking massive amounts of damage and still getting free healing, shielding, mobility and survivability? How come "tanks" are always the scapegoat when the issue is people stacking damage and getting massive amounts of survivability for free? Who cares if a guy is beefy if he hits like a wet noodle, I care about the ones who hit like a truck and heal back to full in 0.5 seconds.

Merforum

Sangwyne wrote: »

Another PvP tank complaint thread? You guys are really beating a dead horse at this point.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Crimson is 8k/8 seconds. That's 1k/s, same with Leeching and Bahraha's, halved to 500 DPS in PvP. It's time for people to stop riding the "tanks bad" train and learn to slot a heal over time. DPS sets do far more damage, and offensive stats scale your healing from procs and skills too. If you want tank damage to be gutted, DD's free survivability should be gutted too. Start with Vigor and shields scaling off Stamina and Magicka. Can't have your cake and eat ours too.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

500 DPS= Full Gank build levels of burst damage. Right. Tanks have to invest in armor and health separately, and neither grants damage. Meanwhile, every last PvP build invests in just ONE stat, Stamina, and gets damage from skills, healing from skills, shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from blocking, rolling and breaking free. And now healing from proc sets as well. You want to talk about "too efficient", start there.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

...90% damage nerf. I will never speak poorly of ZOS balance decisions again.

Why are DDs allowed to get away with stacking massive amounts of damage and still getting free healing, shielding, mobility and survivability? How come "tanks" are always the scapegoat when the issue is people stacking damage and getting massive amounts of survivability for free? Who cares if a guy is beefy if he hits like a wet noodle, I care about the ones who hit like a truck and heal back to full in 0.5 seconds.

Yup you are right, it is sickening how we keep seeing that same people put out their talking points and a bunch of people just parrot that same thing over and over. This idea that merely wearing heavy armor means you aren't allowed to do any damage is ridiculous. In fact heavy tanky brawlers should have INCREASED damage but be a little slower.

They are already tweaking every fun proc set and diversity, leaving literally maybe 4 total sets available for tank/dps builds, yet it isn't enough. These people want it to be zero. And what makes this even more insane is that tanky builds are NON-existent ever since the huge stat increase. PVP is nothing but super high damage, with as you say, infinite resources for skills, roll, break, sneak, block, heal, literally everything.

Here's something silly, the set called draugr heritage is 1000% a tank set but for some reason it is scaling off mag/stam NOT health, it's not the only one (tanks in PVE are being left with very little choices, soon a tanky will be high health/wpn dmg with medium armor). If I had to choose I'd prefer that one to scale off health rather than crimson which is almost useless in PVP, but pretty nice for PVE. In PVP crimson is very bad, only very bad players or luck allows you to get a little damage/healing from it.

Lapin_Logic

Sangwyne wrote: »

Another PvP tank complaint thread? You guys are really beating a dead horse at this point.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Crimson is 8k/8 seconds. That's 1k/s, same with Leeching and Bahraha's, halved to 500 DPS in PvP. It's time for people to stop riding the "tanks bad" train and learn to slot a heal over time. DPS sets do far more damage, and offensive stats scale your healing from procs and skills too. If you want tank damage to be gutted, DD's free survivability should be gutted too. Start with Vigor and shields scaling off Stamina and Magicka. Can't have your cake and eat ours too.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

500 DPS= Full Gank build levels of burst damage. Right. Tanks have to invest in armor and health separately, and neither grants damage. Meanwhile, every last PvP build invests in just ONE stat, Stamina, and gets damage from skills, healing from skills, shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from blocking, rolling and breaking free. And now healing from proc sets as well. You want to talk about "too efficient", start there.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

...90% damage nerf. I will never speak poorly of ZOS balance decisions again.

Why are DDs allowed to get away with stacking massive amounts of damage and still getting free healing, shielding, mobility and survivability? How come "tanks" are always the scapegoat when the issue is people stacking damage and getting massive amounts of survivability for free? Who cares if a guy is beefy if he hits like a wet noodle, I care about the ones who hit like a truck and heal back to full in 0.5 seconds.

*hands you a Dictionary on page "Tank"*

Side note, if this is the "Same as bahara's" then why is no one running that, no one complaining about it and no Youtuber rants about it? Answer, they are not the same, different delivery.

It doesn't sound like you want to "tank" it just sounds like you want immortality and easy mode gameplay.

Brrrofski

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

I'll tell you why this argument makes no sense.

You're not doing trials with proc sets. So you must be carrying around another set anyway.

Just carry a medium set around instead You don't need all the damage in the world to do quests.

I don't understand why you'd gimp yourself so much and quest as a tank.

Sangwyne

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies

Is this what PvP really expects us to be? "Walking CC and Line of Sight for allies"? In both PvP and PvE too? Naw, son.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

*hands you a Dictionary on page "Tank"*

Side note, if this is the "Same as bahara's" then why is no one running that, no one complaining about it and no Youtuber rants about it? Answer, they are not the same, different delivery.

It doesn't sound like you want to "tank" it just sounds like you want immortality and easy mode gameplay.

...Have you actually read it?

3. Military. an armored, self-propelled combat vehicle, armed with cannon and machine guns and moving on a caterpillar tread.

I excluded the definition regarding containers and lakes due to lack of relevance.

Tanks historically were slow but capable. Somehow players got it into their mind that a tank should just be a pile of hitpoints that sits there, takes slightly longer to kill, and poses zero threat. It sure sounds like you want tanks to be sitting ducks and easy pickings while at the same time scaling your healing, shielding, and lifesteal off damage.

If you want durability, you should sacrifice damage. If you want damage, you should sacrifice durability. But currently there's no decision, just stack Stamina and Weapon damage and get the rest handed to you on a silver platter. That needs to change.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Another PvP tank complaint thread? You guys are really beating a dead horse at this point.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Crimson is 8k/8 seconds. That's 1k/s, same with Leeching and Bahraha's, halved to 500 DPS in PvP. It's time for people to stop riding the "tanks bad" train and learn to slot a heal over time. DPS sets do far more damage, and offensive stats scale your healing from procs and skills too. If you want tank damage to be gutted, DD's free survivability should be gutted too. Start with Vigor and shields scaling off Stamina and Magicka. Can't have your cake and eat ours too.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

500 DPS= Full Gank build levels of burst damage. Right. Tanks have to invest in armor and health separately, and neither grants damage. Meanwhile, every last PvP build invests in just ONE stat, Stamina, and gets damage from skills, healing from skills, shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from blocking, rolling and breaking free. And now healing from proc sets as well. You want to talk about "too efficient", start there.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

...90% damage nerf. I will never speak poorly of ZOS balance decisions again.

Why are DDs allowed to get away with stacking massive amounts of damage and still getting free healing, shielding, mobility and survivability? How come "tanks" are always the scapegoat when the issue is people stacking damage and getting massive amounts of survivability for free? Who cares if a guy is beefy if he hits like a wet noodle, I care about the ones who hit like a truck and heal back to full in 0.5 seconds.

You seem to play another game Mate. No Damage Dealer invests in stamina since it gives the worst scaling on your damage/healing skills. Its all about weapon damage.

And crimson is not about HP/s. Crimson is about burst healing in the moment you need it. Having 5 players on you means you will drop low HP pretty damn fast and there crimson shines by being able to bring you back to full HP for nothing. Saving your life there and giving you the time to recover some ressources and reapply buffs.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

You seem to play another game Mate. No Damage Dealer invests in stamina since it gives the worst scaling on your damage/healing skills. Its all about weapon damage.

Ah, so you spend your attribute points and armor glyphs on Magicka then? Rhetorical question. Magicka builds need to invest in some Stamina for breaking free, rolling and blocking, Tanks need to invest in Stamina rather than just Health, but Stamina builds are the only ones that get to scale everything off their main stat. Damage, healing, shielding, rolling, blocking, sprinting, breaking free, stealth, and proc healing shouldn't all scale off one stat, it doesn't matter how well it scales. And Stamina builds get more Weapon damage than Magicka builds get Spell damage TOO, what's your point? While also having zero penalties on their armor and Stamina already being the meta.

Artorias24 wrote: »

And crimson is not about HP/s. Crimson is about burst healing in the moment you need it. Having 5 players on you means you will drop low HP pretty damn fast and there crimson shines by being able to bring you back to full HP for nothing. Saving your life there and giving you the time to recover some ressources and reapply buffs.

Crimson is the singular issue people bring up every time. So instead of gutting the entire rest of the game around one item... why not just fix the item??? Make it deal DOT damage around you for 8 seconds and heal for the same amount. Leeching works the same way, actually heals and deals more damage, and no one complains about it because it's not applied all at once. Bahraha's is a DOT. Vicecanon of Venom is a DOT. Crimson is strong because it's a burst heal and a burst of damage, change that instead of gutting our builds for the umpteenth time, and please stop using one single item as justification to nerf an entire playstyle when multiple problems with other playstyles exist.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

You seem to play another game Mate. No Damage Dealer invests in stamina since it gives the worst scaling on your damage/healing skills. Its all about weapon damage.

Ah, so you spend your attribute points and armor glyphs on Magicka then? Rhetorical question. Magicka builds need to invest in some Stamina for breaking free, rolling and blocking, Tanks need to invest in Stamina rather than just Health, but Stamina builds are the only ones that get to scale everything off their main stat. Damage, healing, shielding, rolling, blocking, sprinting, breaking free, stealth, and proc healing shouldn't all scale off one stat, it doesn't matter how well it scales. And Stamina builds get more Weapon damage than Magicka builds get Spell damage TOO, what's your point? While also having zero penalties on their armor and Stamina already being the meta.

Artorias24 wrote: »

And crimson is not about HP/s. Crimson is about burst healing in the moment you need it. Having 5 players on you means you will drop low HP pretty damn fast and there crimson shines by being able to bring you back to full HP for nothing. Saving your life there and giving you the time to recover some ressources and reapply buffs.

Crimson is the singular issue people bring up every time. So instead of gutting the entire rest of the game around one item... why not just fix the item??? Make it deal DOT damage around you for 8 seconds and heal for the same amount. Leeching works the same way, actually heals and deals more damage, and no one complains about it because it's not applied all at once. Bahraha's is a DOT. Vicecanon of Venom is a DOT. Crimson is strong because it's a burst heal and a burst of damage, change that instead of gutting our builds for the umpteenth time, and please stop using one single item as justification to nerf an entire playstyle when multiple problems with other playstyles exist.

What shield scales Off max stamina?

And that mag build need to invest in stam to do physical movements like Dodge, break free, sprint was always the Case. And personally i think they are even in an Advantage then cause being of of stam doesnt mean death to them. Still have magicka to deal damage and heal. If a stam player is out of stam it means no healing and also no damage for him.

We never asked for a whole playstyle to be nerfed. We always asked for crimson nerf since its too strong in its current state. Oh and you dont need procs to be a tanky damage dealer in pvp.

AgentUriel

Look let's consider real balance. Not what could be possible... Logically let's consider the set scaling ok?

Max stamina: this should scale with dps that want to do damage with martial weapons/abilities (duh)
Max weapon damage: same as above but we all know that stacking weapon damage is more effective at beating ppl up

Now consider this: when you invest in stamina it's recommended to use stamina abilities in game. It's there to help recommend to newer players what they should use signified by a bigger square around the ability. The expectation, which isn't a surprise to anyone, is that after more and more investment your abilities will become more and more powerful both healing, defensive (stam not health) and of course damaging.

Now compare it to the health stat and what is recommended like health based heals, heals/damage shields that use mag or stam but scale with total health, heals that activate with a synergy for allies or yourself... The purpose of the health stat, and the scaling is for staying alive and then helping others around survive longer than they would on their own. That is a tank in eso, although in trials a proper tank provides buffs as well as defense, and this does not describe a tank in the real world. A tank in eso can not be expected to do real significant damage but it can be expected to be one of the last ppl standing in a battle.

A tank should not have access to abilities that allow them to become a god. To say "no" to anyone that walks up to them for a fight, takes the combo like a champ and then sends the opponent to a different place of existence in short order. That is not balanced. At best you can have a "solo" build that can heal, do damage, and absorb damage. You can also take that same build into pvp and try your luck with a few tweaks and do pretty well. Well but not great. If you can't die and you can kill ppl with relative ease then you have the best case scenario and you and your build (or armor set like crimson) needs a nerf. Simple as that.

What isn't simple is how to keep pvp and pve separate with buffs and nerfs. Personally I'd just say nerf all proc sets in pvp to half effectiveness or maybe a bit less (33%?). Health recovery is going to be nerfed and healing abilities have already been nerfed. Why not proc damage? It's basically free damage. Let's just update the battle spirit debuff and add it to the list. End of story so we can move on to the important stuff.

Like fashion 😁

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

We never asked for a whole playstyle to be nerfed. We always asked for crimson nerf since its too strong in its current state.

This exact post is asking for tank nerfs of 90% and calling for us to be nothing more than a walking CC bot and Line of Sight.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets.

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

Along with all of these. Please leave us alone and focus on the real issues. Nerf Malacath, the massive HP heal and scaling on Necro's Ravenous Goliath which is breaking health scaling on gear and skills, and make Crimson a DOT, don't gut tanks.

Artorias24 wrote: »

What shield scales Off max stamina?

Brawler from 2H, the weapon line that every Stamina player uses. In terms of Stamina shields, there's also Bone Shield, Shielded Assault and Defensive Posture, but those do scale off Max Health. Meanwhile, there's a whopping total of one shield anyone can access that scales off Magicka, which requires Light armor users to wear 5+ pieces of Light armor. Sorcerers have another, but there's 4 total Stamina shields that anyone can pick up and only one Magicka shield that "anyone" can pick up, since it requires 5+ pieces of Light armor.

Medium also has the best armor skill in Shuffle, which cleanses snares and grants immunity to them, along with granting Major Evasion, which no Magicka build except Nightblade can access without specific and underwhelming sets. Vigor's healing scales off Stamina and eclipses anything Magicka has to offer; Magicka builds are forced to run Resto staves just to get a decent heal whereas anyone can pick up Vigor and heal for far more right off the bat. Medium armor has no penalties, just upsides. Stamina is used for everything.

Players love to talk about tank builds getting "free damage", but conveniently leave out the part where Stamina builds have been getting free damage, survivability, and everything else for ages.

"The truth is, the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas (Bethesda Softworks), 2010

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

We never asked for a whole playstyle to be nerfed. We always asked for crimson nerf since its too strong in its current state.

This exact post is asking for tank nerfs of 90% and calling for us to be nothing more than a walking CC bot and Line of Sight.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets.

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

Along with all of these. Please leave us alone and focus on the real issues. Nerf Malacath, the massive HP heal and scaling on Necro's Ravenous Goliath which is breaking health scaling on gear and skills, and make Crimson a DOT, don't gut tanks.

Artorias24 wrote: »

What shield scales Off max stamina?

Brawler from 2H, the weapon line that every Stamina player uses. In terms of Stamina shields, there's also Bone Shield, Shielded Assault and Defensive Posture, but those do scale off Max Health. Meanwhile, there's a whopping total of one shield anyone can access that scales off Magicka, which requires Light armor users to wear 5+ pieces of Light armor. Sorcerers have another, but there's 4 total Stamina shields that anyone can pick up and only one Magicka shield that "anyone" can pick up, since it requires 5+ pieces of Light armor.

Medium also has the best armor skill in Shuffle, which cleanses snares and grants immunity to them, along with granting Major Evasion, which no Magicka build except Nightblade can access without specific and underwhelming sets. Vigor's healing scales off Stamina and eclipses anything Magicka has to offer; Magicka builds are forced to run Resto staves just to get a decent heal whereas anyone can pick up Vigor and heal for far more right off the bat. Medium armor has no penalties, just upsides. Stamina is used for everything.

Players love to talk about tank builds getting "free damage", but conveniently leave out the part where Stamina builds have been getting free damage, survivability, and everything else for ages.

"The truth is, the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas (Bethesda Softworks), 2010

None of the stamina shields are actually viable in pvp. Maybe bone shield provided by a high hp support build. But thats it. Light armor shield also doesnt get used a lot anymore. Ppl focus on strong healing on magicka builds. And here we are, magicka builds have access to more class healing skills then every stam Has.

Magsorc has shields, can spam pet heal. Stamsorc cant really make much use of the pet heal and maybe can heal from crit surge but will simply die without vigor.

Mag DK has cauterize, burning embers, coag blood, flame lash heal, that ash cload. Stamdk can use cauterize and maybe green dragonblood as a burst heal when low HP.

Stamblade can use dark cloak but will mostly choose to cloak same goes for magblade. They both rely on external healing skills while magblade a bit less maybe cause their spammable also heal for a tiny amount. Not enough i know.

Magicka templar has living dark and bol/hotd, extended ritual, hasty prayer and jab heal. Stamplar uses extended ritual and again, relies on vigor/rally.

Magicka warden has polar wind, vines, spores and other healing. Its packed with healing skills. Mushrooms have an stammorpg and are decent and stamden also uses vines and polar wind for healing. Some builds dont rely on vigor but still helps a lot.

Magicka necro also has many class heals. Resistent flesh, that aoe purge heal, intense mender and tether. Stamcro can use the tether but also relies on vigor/rally for healing.

As you can see. Magicka builds use class healing and stambuilds rely on vigor. There is no need for a magicka vigor.

And also stamina dd builds dont get free damage/healing. Their healing and damage comes from their wo damage/max stam they actually Invest. Mostly max wp Damage. So they build for this specific stat to increase their damage/survivability. A tank that doesnt invest their Stats in damage shouldnt be able to deal damage with armor sets that give them for free. No Investment in damage = no damage. Simple

AgentUriel

Preach it @Artorias24 ! That's what I'm saying! I mean look at pvp for the past year. Tankiness beyond belief and proc sets to blast you to nothing asap. I literally got killed by a dude using the vateshran staff on his back bar, switched to his sword and shield and in 3 seconds I died questioning what was real anymore. Admittedly I positioned badly but that kind of experience sours pvp and wouldn't make me want to return anytime soon if I was a new player.

AgentUriel

@Sangwyne also just so you know I have used brawler in pvp. It is the butts.

"Hey guys can you all stand in front of me so my cone ability can scale after I hit you all while you convenient stand there without moving? Thanks!" Never happens.

Not to mention it seemed like there was a cool down on it in pvp. It's not like being in an arena and spamming it to conveniently and consistently get a damage shield. After about 5 seconds you could get another shield from brawler in pvp, from my experience, but in 5 seconds you would be dead 3 seconds ago so not much point using it.

Sangwyne

AgentUriel wrote: »

I mean look at pvp for the past year. Tankiness beyond belief and proc sets to blast you to nothing asap. I literally got killed by a dude using the vateshran staff on his back bar, switched to his sword and shield and in 3 seconds I died questioning what was real anymore. Admittedly I positioned badly but that kind of experience sours pvp and wouldn't make me want to return anytime soon if I was a new player.

So now that Vateshran scales off Weapon Damage, meaning that Stamina builds will deal even more damage with it and other proc sets while retaining survivability from healing, blocking, rolling, higher base armor and shielding, why are tanks still the scapegoat?

Artorias24 wrote: »

None of the stamina shields are actually viable in pvp.

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Sangwyne also just so you know I have used brawler in pvp. It is the butts.

Now wait 'til you try out the shield Magicka builds get. It's not great either. My point is, Stamina builds still have more shields than Magicka builds (4 to 1), more healing with just Vigor than most Magicka builds have even with class skills and a Resto Stave, a much better armor skill, zero penalties, more mobility, stealth, damage and durability, and get to stack one stat for everything when other builds require multiple to survive. It's not balanced.

Other builds have downsides. Not Stamina. Why does Stamina scale everything and Medium armor have no penalties? And why are people defending it being that way but asking for nerfs to other playstyles?

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

I mean look at pvp for the past year. Tankiness beyond belief and proc sets to blast you to nothing asap. I literally got killed by a dude using the vateshran staff on his back bar, switched to his sword and shield and in 3 seconds I died questioning what was real anymore. Admittedly I positioned badly but that kind of experience sours pvp and wouldn't make me want to return anytime soon if I was a new player.

So now that Vateshran scales off Weapon Damage, meaning that Stamina builds will deal even more damage with it and other proc sets while retaining survivability from healing, blocking, rolling, higher base armor and shielding, why are tanks still the scapegoat?

Artorias24 wrote: »

None of the stamina shields are actually viable in pvp.

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Sangwyne also just so you know I have used brawler in pvp. It is the butts.

Now wait 'til you try out the shield Magicka builds get. It's not great either. My point is, Stamina builds still have more shields than Magicka builds (4 to 1), more healing with just Vigor than most Magicka builds have even with class skills and a Resto Stave, a much better armor skill, zero penalties, more mobility, stealth, damage and durability, and get to stack one stat for everything when other builds require multiple to survive. It's not balanced.

Other builds have downsides. Not Stamina. Why does Stamina scale everything and Medium armor have no penalties? And why are people defending it being that way but asking for nerfs to other playstyles?

All we want is that builds that purely stack into being a tank dont get free damage with proc sets. If you want damage then you should build for it by maxing out your offensive stats. And not spec into damage mitigation and slap on zaan, vate destro and crimson to carry your damage and make you even more tanky by boosting you back to full HP every 8 seconds without even spending ressources for this.

AgentUriel

@Sangwyne (messed up the quoting whoops)

Now wait 'til you try out the shield Magicka builds get. It's not great either. My point is, Stamina builds still have more shields than Magicka builds (4 to 1), more healing with just Vigor than most Magicka builds have even with class skills and a Resto Stave, a much better armor skill, zero penalties, more mobility, stealth, damage and durability, and get to stack one stat for everything when other builds require multiple to survive. It's not balanced.

Other builds have downsides. Not Stamina. Why does Stamina scale everything and Medium armor have no penalties? And why are people defending it being that way but asking for nerfs to other playstyles?



I'm getting confused. You wanted tanks to not get nerfed, even indirectly and now you want stamina to be nerfed?

That being said... Stamina usually has an edge in pvp and it is rather common knowledge. However from my perspective it's also play style. I have a sorc that plays like a nightblade using the overload ultimate that I finally completed the build for a month and a half ago. I can delete people at range in seconds flat. Technically I should get nerfed maybe (actually I already did sad face) but I'm still good. Instead of talking about what other builds are good at why don't you focus on what a tank setup can do well in pvp?

From what I've been told it's better to have a tankier setup for beginner pvp players so they don't die too fast and learn to react better for instance and as they get more experience they can change it up for more damage. I actually had an experience with 3 tanky stamplars that would run away only to make you chase them and in unison jab you to death. That isn't a really unique experience either really and they had the benefits of eating damage while doing ok damage but together deleting everyone in a small AoE. Tactics man.

You just have to capitalize on the good stuff and make up for the weaknesses. Just like the meta the past year. Build like a tank and use 2-3 sets that proc damage and boom you win. I'm bored with it and I hope crimson goes with it all down the nerf drain. At least to a point.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

All we want is that builds that purely stack into being a tank dont get free damage with proc sets. If you want damage then you should build for it by maxing out your offensive stats. And not spec into damage mitigation and slap on zaan, vate destro and crimson to carry your damage and make you even more tanky by boosting you back to full HP every 8 seconds without even spending ressources for this.

And all we want is that builds that stack damage to not press one button and outheal us with zero investment in survivability, while also asking that our damage and survivability be nerfed. If you want survivability, you should have to invest in it. One skill, Vigor, is not an investment. Stacking damage is not an investment in survivability either. I agree that Vateshran combined with Malacath, Crimson and a proc set like Unleashed or Syvarra's was too strong, but that isn't specific to tanks. Anyone can do that, but now Stamina builds will do that exact same thing, just better than everyone else. The issue was never resolved, it just shifted the meta to Stamina and left tanks with all the blame.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

All we want is that builds that purely stack into being a tank dont get free damage with proc sets. If you want damage then you should build for it by maxing out your offensive stats. And not spec into damage mitigation and slap on zaan, vate destro and crimson to carry your damage and make you even more tanky by boosting you back to full HP every 8 seconds without even spending ressources for this.

And all we want is that builds that stack damage to not press one button and outheal us with zero investment in survivability, while also asking that our damage and survivability be nerfed. If you want survivability, you should have to invest in it. One skill, Vigor, is not an investment. Stacking damage is not an investment in survivability either. I agree that Vateshran combined with Malacath, Crimson and a proc set like Unleashed or Syvarra's was too strong, but that isn't specific to tanks. Anyone can do that, but now Stamina builds will do that exact same thing, just better than everyone else. The issue was never resolved, it just shifted the meta to Stamina and left tanks with all the blame.

They invest in damage and healing. If you purely stack into this your defensive (regen and mitigation) will be low exposing you to get bursted down fast. So a good build covers all of that. Damage, regen, healing and mitigation. And none of those should come from your armor set for free.

No direct damage/healing should be done from your armor set. Armor should exclusivly buff your stats. That way you can balance the game much better and focus on class balance without needing to count in proc sets that deal damage for free by itself.

If you want to build for lots of survivability then your should trade Off damage and not compensate with a proc set that does the job for you. If you want to build for high damage you should loose mitigation.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

If you want to build for lots of survivability then your should trade Off damage and not compensate with a proc set that does the job for you. If you want to build for high damage you should loose mitigation.

Sounds like we're on the same page. Builds that only stack damage shouldn't get free survivability and builds that only stack survivability shouldn't get free damage. So why does Stamina scale healing from proc sets and Vigor? Why do Stamina builds have more armor than Light, more durability from their armor skill and damage reduction passives than Light, more damage from scaling Weapon Damage harder than anyone, more mobility, and no downsides? And why does Medium armor grant damage but no penalties to damage taken like Light or Heavy? Definitely seems like there's preferential treatment being given here, and it would be nice for people to realize that.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

If you want to build for lots of survivability then your should trade Off damage and not compensate with a proc set that does the job for you. If you want to build for high damage you should loose mitigation.

Sounds like we're on the same page. Builds that only stack damage shouldn't get free survivability and builds that only stack survivability shouldn't get free damage. So why does Stamina scale healing from proc sets and Vigor? Why do Stamina builds have more armor than Light, more durability from their armor skill and damage reduction passives than Light, more damage from scaling Weapon Damage harder than anyone, more mobility, and no downsides? And why does Medium armor grant damage but no penalties to damage taken like Light or Heavy? Definitely seems like there's preferential treatment being given here, and it would be nice for people to realize that.

Magicka/Caster are always light armor in nearly every game that gets into the fantasy category. Caster are always squishy but put out lots of damage.

Healing proc set scale with max mag/stam. Equal numbers while magicka has a way easier time to stack magicka. But stamina Has a better way to stack weapon damage.

How do you want the healing skills scale off? Atm both damage and healing skills scale Off your offensive stats combined spell damage/magicka and wp damage/stam. And thats fine in my opinion. Thats how eso has always been cause the Combat was designed with pvp in mind.

Anyway you cant make mag and stam builds equal and give them access to the same skills just as mag and stam morph. Otherwise every spec would feel the same.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

Magicka/Caster are always light armor in nearly every game that gets into the fantasy category. Caster are always squishy but put out lots of damage.

And Stamina builds aren't squishy, but still put out more damage due to more Weapon damage.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Healing proc set scale with max mag/stam. Equal numbers while magicka has a way easier time to stack magicka. But stamina Has a better way to stack weapon damage.

Medium armor grants free weapon damage. Light armor doesn't grant free Magicka. They're not the same. Light has to slot Mage Guild skills that they are never going to use to increase their max Magicka. Light has penalties, Medium does not. Light takes more damage from Medium despite already having the least armor in the game.

Artorias24 wrote: »

How do you want the healing skills scale off? Atm both damage and healing skills scale Off your offensive stats combined spell damage/magicka and wp damage/stam. And thats fine in my opinion. Thats how eso has always been cause the Combat was designed with pvp in mind.

Not off Stamina. How does a buff dude getting just as much healing from Magical skills and armor as the guy that literally studies Magic make sense? Magicka is only used for skills. Stamina is used for skills, on top of rolling, sprinting, blocking, breaking free, and stealth, AND Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyway you cant make mag and stam builds equal and give them access to the same skills just as mag and stam morph. Otherwise every spec would feel the same.

They aren't equal, Stamina builds are better at everything except Streak. Stamina builds have 4 different types of weapon playstyles, DW, SnB, 2H and Bow. Magicka just has Staves, which do 10% less damage with light attacks than DW, SnB or 2H.

Rex-Umbra

Game has been nerfing Tanks for years now. Tanking was much more fun 3 years ago now the game has a shortage of tanks because any time a fun tanking set is made it gets nerfed. Let Tanks enjoy the game too eh or you'll be waiting in dungeon queue for ever or complaining about fake tanks.