Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta

CaffeinatedMayhem

Look devs, I get that you're trying new stuff but really, no one likes this "nobody can do damage, but no one dies" meta. Otherwise known as "ball groups or you die" and sometimes I've watched ball groups not be able to kill eachother.

The main reason I lose fights is MY HANDS GET TIRED. I have a connective tissue diesease in my hands... I can't DPS in PvE because I'm in too much pain after a trial. Now I can't DPS in PvP either... because my hands are in too much pain to carry on a fight.

Can we just not?

Dracane

After some long fights and spamming, I feel like I am on the verge of developing said connective tissue disease too.

relentless_turnip

I have had mix of fights on PTS.. many stalemates where clearly mitigation, health and healing is too high. Then there were the players using 7 light who were burning me down so fast. I was playing stamsorc in 7 medium with 7.6k WD. So not great for duelling... Survivability seems naturally high though. I ended up wearing 3 damage sets as a result. Overall it doesn't feel any worse than duelling does on live. With heavy block builds being very durable, but I haven't fought anyone in heavy who had enough damage to kill me. Those using medium and light gave a much more engaging fight.

MasterSpatula

Never mind, misread the OP

Dracane

@relentless_turnip May I know how much stamina you had on that stamsorc and what sets you used?

olsborg

Tank meta since 2016, heavy armor makes it too easy. (and ofc sets like crimson etc etc)

If you build for dmg and burst you will be at a disadvantage atm because everyone who builds for tankiness and heals will have a much easier time. In short, what im trying to explain, ppl who build for dmg has a shorter way into the grave then someone who does the opposite. Both in 1v1 and open world.

relentless_turnip

Dracane wrote: »

@relentless_turnip May I know how much stamina you had on that stamsorc and what sets you used?

I used clever, briar, master dw and pale order. I was using bear haunch so my stam was only 25k, but it will be the same in cp and no cp now 😂 so not a concern. I was running 7 medium as I found that more effective than 5 1 1.

Sahidom

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

relentless_turnip

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

Dracane

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

7,6k weapon damage and still 2,7k recovery. How is that even possible.

[Edit to remove bait]

Twohothardware

Heavy armor needs a damage penalty per piece worn and ball groups need stack heals nerfed.

Healing outside group needs to come back but there needs to be something done to make members of ball groups easier to kill. I don’t know if there’s still a damage reduction bonus when being in a group and near each other while in Cyrodiil but if there is that needs to be 0% and heals from the same skill should not stack.

relentless_turnip

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

7,6k weapon damage and still 2,7k recovery. How is that even possible.

I posted the build above^^. It's a medium full damage build... I am an orc using serpent mundus, and one infused stam glyph. On the PTS they have added 1000 WD at level 50. 50 points in recovery in my cp tree too. On live I think this build only reaches 6.2k. My friend made build with 9.8k WD I just don't think it would be viable...

If you need help with a build, don't be afraid to ask. I am pc EU same name👍

[Edit to remove bait]

Dracane

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

7,6k weapon damage and still 2,7k recovery. How is that even possible.

I posted the build above^^ It's a medium full damage build... I am an orc using serpent mundus, and one infused stam glyph. On the PTS they have added 1000 WD at level 50. 50 points in recovery in my cp tree too. On live I think this build only reaches 6.2k. My friend made build with 9.8k WD I just don't think it would be viable...

If you need help with a build, don't be afraid to ask. I am pc EU same name👍

Ah, this is with CP. I have spent so much time in no CP and have crown custom to the values present there.
I just know, I could never have so much sustain if I went for this amount of damage.

Flaaklypa

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

If you genuinelly believe no heavy armor tank in procs cant kill you i beg of you to duel my stamden. I have vateshran 2, vateshran ice, zaan and syvarras with 55k hp. Zaan can do up to 15k in recap

Nerhesi

Yeah, this meta is continuing the same age old crap meta but with a different twist.

Instead of the 5+ minute fights in 1v1 until someone screws up, where everyone is just stacking max stats. It is now the same but with proc sets.

The problem is, to move away for this, they would have to admit the initial design of this game is flawed. This idea of play the way you want is what allows people to build hyper optimized everything builds. You need have meaningful choices so that you can't be a tanky, bursty, sustainy, well healing, mobile-y ridiculousness.

The original game devs thought they were onto something I think when started making this decision of making every skill available to everyone... only for it to be obvious to a lot of us that this is just the weakness of a skill rather than class based system. 95% of your options are sub par.

Picture playing League of Legends, but you could pick your passive, 3 skills, and ultimate from all champs.... obviously everyone would have something 90% similar in the competitive environment.

relentless_turnip

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

7,6k weapon damage and still 2,7k recovery. How is that even possible.

I posted the build above^^ It's a medium full damage build... I am an orc using serpent mundus, and one infused stam glyph. On the PTS they have added 1000 WD at level 50. 50 points in recovery in my cp tree too. On live I think this build only reaches 6.2k. My friend made build with 9.8k WD I just don't think it would be viable...

If you need help with a build, don't be afraid to ask. I am pc EU same name👍

Ah, this is with CP. I have spent so much time in no CP and have crown custom to the values present there.
I just know, I could never have so much sustain if I went for this amount of damage.

I mainly play no cp, so my sustain is like 2.3k in no cp. This was a discussion about the PTS, so yeah WD is much much higher. In no cp I think my WD is still 7.2k 😂

relentless_turnip

Flaaklypa wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

Well this sadly isn't true.
On the PTS I am running 3 damage sets with 2.7k stam recovery, I am also wearing 7 medium. I have spent a significant amount of time duelling heavy armor builds and though they can't kill me, they will kill a lot of players who aren't used to PvP or building for it. What I have found is most people would rather survive than kill, which is fine! I do think there should be less achievable damage from heavy sets. Some of the best like fury and ravager are heavy. Not to mention the amount of sets that can be crafted heavy. Ravager will be bis imo next patch with being able to lower someone resistance passively via minor breach occurring from normal damage.

If you genuinelly believe no heavy armor tank in procs cant kill you i beg of you to duel my stamden. I have vateshran 2, vateshran ice, zaan and syvarras with 55k hp. Zaan can do up to 15k in recap

I just meant of the people of duelled on the PTS... As I stated. Yes you probably would kill me with this afk build 😂👍

stefj68

Twohothardware wrote: »

Heavy armor needs a damage penalty per piece worn and ball groups need stack heals nerfed.

Healing outside group needs to come back but there needs to be something done to make members of ball groups easier to kill. I don’t know if there’s still a damage reduction bonus when being in a group and near each other while in Cyrodiil but if there is that needs to be 0% and heals from the same skill should not stack.

each pieces of heavy armor you are wearing, is not giving you dps bonus from light or medium... as dps, each pieces of heavy i am wearing lower my potential troughtput... so no need to add another penalties on top

AyaDark

After yesterdays PVP my mouse was bended in my hands so much power i put in it for so long , becouse some times BUTTONS do NOT PRESS !!!

Can we pls have buttons work on press NOT ON RELEASE ?

weathersong

Sahidom wrote: »

I wonder whether the issue isn't the tank meta but the assailants glass resource levels that cause players to be exhausted (resource drained) when their burst trick gets countered and on fumes until they can try again. For instance, ignoring resources for high WD/SD than not having the sustain to handle prolonged fights. This may imply the problem doesnt rest on the tank meta but their dependency on the exploited mechanics for massive burst against low resistant and health targets than the tank meta build. If true than the tank meta is just the answer to the previous problem and people don't like how times changed: meaning their target may actually kill them before their burst cylindrical cycle resets.

I sort of have to agree with this. Why is there a tank meta? If you could do just as well in medium armor and kill things faster, why bother with heavy?

Because the meta is so bursty that if you aren't in heavy you can literally be killed in the time it takes to be stunned and then break free.

Maybe the answer is to get rid of the break free animation blocking your ability to do anything until it completes. (I kid, I kid.)

Or maybe the problem is there's just so much damage across the board that we are forced to wear heavy regardless of whether you're a 1vX, a heavy attack build, a proc build, or even a damn healer who does no damage at all and is just trying to support the team.

Like seriously, when a *healer* has to wear heavy, that should tell you something, right?

Hesperax79

weathersong wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Like seriously, when a *healer* has to wear heavy, that should tell you something, right?

Yes. In any other MMO I ever played the healer can not be killed by a singe DPS or just after a long fight. Here the healer are not able to survive a few sec against any DPS.
I tried just yesterday. I went to BG with my PvP healer templar/ purger. I make 115K healing. If I play with my stamDK I make same numbers...

Artorias24

Hesperax79 wrote: »

weathersong wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Like seriously, when a *healer* has to wear heavy, that should tell you something, right?

Yes. In any other MMO I ever played the healer can not be killed by a singe DPS or just after a long fight. Here the healer are not able to survive a few sec against any DPS.
I tried just yesterday. I went to BG with my PvP healer templar/ purger. I make 115K healing. If I play with my stamDK I make same numbers...

Healers reach 1m healing in a BG easily. Dont know what you are doing to only reach 115k healing.

And every decent PvP healer i know is immortal to 2-3 good players and it Takes even more the worse the players get.

You just need to know how to build and what skills to use. And sure you would need to be in heavy armor as a pvp healer since you will get lots of focus and you need to be able to not only heal through the damage. You also need to be able to mitigate as much as possible.

Hesperax79

I made

Artorias24 wrote: »

Hesperax79 wrote: »

weathersong wrote: »

And sure you would need to be in heavy armor as a pvp healer since you will get lots of focus and you need to be able to not only heal through the damage. You also need to be able to mitigate as much as possible.

Yes, I definetly made something wrong. I have heavy Seducer and Curse eater but it was a nightmare. I do not heal since 1 year but I was suprised. Anyway my n00biness is offtopic here I guess. :-)

Firstmep

stefj68 wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Heavy armor needs a damage penalty per piece worn and ball groups need stack heals nerfed.

Healing outside group needs to come back but there needs to be something done to make members of ball groups easier to kill. I don’t know if there’s still a damage reduction bonus when being in a group and near each other while in Cyrodiil but if there is that needs to be 0% and heals from the same skill should not stack.

each pieces of heavy armor you are wearing, is not giving you dps bonus from light or medium... as dps, each pieces of heavy i am wearing lower my potential troughtput... so no need to add another penalties on top

Well, when it comes to pvp, the crit bonuses in light and medium are pretty irrelevant, next patch you will get some wpd/penetration from their passives even if you wear mostly heavy.
Also procsets don't care about most of your offensive stats, bar penetration.
If you want to run light armor outside of dueling next patch, you will defo have to wear at least 1 if not more defensive sets, just so you don't get crushed.
Medium is a bit different with excessive dodgerolling, but overall heavy is still the best.
Especially when some of the best pvp sets(like crimson or Def warrior) are heavy sets.

Dracane

Firstmep wrote: »

stefj68 wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Heavy armor needs a damage penalty per piece worn and ball groups need stack heals nerfed.

Healing outside group needs to come back but there needs to be something done to make members of ball groups easier to kill. I don’t know if there’s still a damage reduction bonus when being in a group and near each other while in Cyrodiil but if there is that needs to be 0% and heals from the same skill should not stack.

each pieces of heavy armor you are wearing, is not giving you dps bonus from light or medium... as dps, each pieces of heavy i am wearing lower my potential troughtput... so no need to add another penalties on top

Well, when it comes to pvp, the crit bonuses in light and medium are pretty irrelevant, next patch you will get some wpd/penetration from their passives even if you wear mostly heavy.
Also procsets don't care about most of your offensive stats, bar penetration.
If you want to run light armor outside of dueling next patch, you will defo have to wear at least 1 if not more defensive sets, just so you don't get crushed.
Medium is a bit different with excessive dodgerolling, but overall heavy is still the best.
Especially when some of the best pvp sets(like crimson or Def warrior) are heavy sets.

The dark lord has sent word: Buff it, buff it all!