T(G)ank Heavy armor, open letter to Combat Team

Mionikoi

I for one want more hybrid sets. Someone said 'just eliminate classes all together.' No. Just no. Then you really could have a healing dps tank god. Just no.

But having a tank set or even better MORE tank sets that have damage that scales off of health. Both in PVP and PVE. I want these builds to be the type that you HAVE to stop your zerg just to ulti the thing out of existence. We could even call them grinder sets. Not fast, will burn your siege. Stay away. Ulti the thing to death.

There are DPS healers. They work. They can mimic a tank because they heal that much and that quick. Crimson is not helpful towards them because they should have to REALLY have to invest in health to get that nice damage return.... To the point that they don't have the healing and DPS.

A Crim tank is something you don't want to stay close to for long. Or allow to be fielded for long. Guess what else is kinda like that? Werewolves and the HAMMER.

Come now people. One person rampages is fun. And I love the idea of making people change things up and NOT swarm in a mindless hive mind we call zergs. Sure, you can zerg. You can ball group. But you might meet a maniac that will punish you if you don't know what your doing.

Lastly, parkor would be a nice thing to have and invest in. As well more Stealth sets. Imagine if they had grappling hooks and or latters or siege towers? That would be epic. But how to balance that? Easy. Grappling hooks could be a slow climb up. If you aren't aware of an infiltrator than you can get one person and slowly a group of people on the inside. What's the point of the walls then? They're an obstacle. And high Stealth could be a high demand to pull that off. Low DPS because you would be pouring everything into staying undetected. But something to change things up.

Siege towers are slow and vulnerable. They're moving stairs that burn with people on them.
Ladders could be quicker, but they could also could have the same vulnerability as towers. Or they could just simply be flipped. So many possibilities to change up PVP.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

Magicka/Caster are always light armor in nearly every game that gets into the fantasy category. Caster are always squishy but put out lots of damage.

And Stamina builds aren't squishy, but still put out more damage due to more Weapon damage.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Healing proc set scale with max mag/stam. Equal numbers while magicka has a way easier time to stack magicka. But stamina Has a better way to stack weapon damage.

Medium armor grants free weapon damage. Light armor doesn't grant free Magicka. They're not the same. Light has to slot Mage Guild skills that they are never going to use to increase their max Magicka. Light has penalties, Medium does not. Light takes more damage from Medium despite already having the least armor in the game.

Artorias24 wrote: »

How do you want the healing skills scale off? Atm both damage and healing skills scale Off your offensive stats combined spell damage/magicka and wp damage/stam. And thats fine in my opinion. Thats how eso has always been cause the Combat was designed with pvp in mind.

Not off Stamina. How does a buff dude getting just as much healing from Magical skills and armor as the guy that literally studies Magic make sense? Magicka is only used for skills. Stamina is used for skills, on top of rolling, sprinting, blocking, breaking free, and stealth, AND Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyway you cant make mag and stam builds equal and give them access to the same skills just as mag and stam morph. Otherwise every spec would feel the same.

They aren't equal, Stamina builds are better at everything except Streak. Stamina builds have 4 different types of weapon playstyles, DW, SnB, 2H and Bow. Magicka just has Staves, which do 10% less damage with light attacks than DW, SnB or 2H.

Light armor gives spell Penetration wich is a huge damage Boost. And magicka builds also put out lots of damage cause instead of high spell damage they get a lot of Penetration and with a destro staff have access to maj breach easily with minor magicka steal for a skill that doesnt have any cost. There is no stamina version of this.

Anyway i cant convince someone that magicka is strong when you already made your decision. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Mionikoi

Artorias24 wrote: »

Light armor gives spell Penetration wich is a huge damage Boost. And magicka builds also put out lots of damage cause instead of high spell damage they get a lot of Penetration and with a destro staff have access to maj breach easily with minor magicka steal for a skill that doesnt have any cost. There is no stamina version of this.

Anyway i cant convince someone that magicka is strong when you already made your decision. [snip]

Yeah, magicka vs stamina is a bit unbalanced right now.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyway i cant convince someone that magicka is strong when you already made your decision. [snip]

...What?

Sangwyne wrote: »

Stamina was already the meta, now it will be even more prevalent.

• Stamina builds already have more damage than Magicka builds due to scaling weapon damage harder.
• Stamina builds will also deal more damage with procs due to them scaling off weapon/spell damage now.
• Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.
• Stamina is used for skills, blocking, rolling, sprinting and breaking free, Magicka can only be used for skills.
• Medium armor grants more mobility and armor than Light, along with more damage and defensive passives.
• Medium armor's skill is better; Magicka builds can't grab Major Evasion but Stamina builds can still get shields.
• Medium armor has no downsides, Light and Heavy armor have several.
• Light armor takes increased damage from Stamina builds despite already having the least armor (Why?)

Please let me know how Magicka is stronger, I'm just not seeing it. In PvP, the bias is against Magicka.

AgentUriel

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyway i cant convince someone that magicka is strong when you already made your decision. [snip]

...What?

Sangwyne wrote: »

Stamina was already the meta, now it will be even more prevalent.

• Stamina builds already have more damage than Magicka builds due to scaling weapon damage harder.
• Stamina builds will also deal more damage with procs due to them scaling off weapon/spell damage now.
• Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.
• Stamina is used for skills, blocking, rolling, sprinting and breaking free, Magicka can only be used for skills.
• Medium armor grants more mobility and armor than Light, along with more damage and defensive passives.
• Medium armor's skill is better; Magicka builds can't grab Major Evasion but Stamina builds can still get shields.
• Medium armor has no downsides, Light and Heavy armor have several.
• Light armor takes increased damage from Stamina builds despite already having the least armor (Why?)

Please let me know how Magicka is stronger, I'm just not seeing it. In PvP, the bias is against Magicka.

I was disagreeing with you before on a tankiness meta but here it's ... Well kind of obvious. PvP does favor stamina. The only exception would be group play but even then... I see stamina builds winning more often than not. The passives are pretty slick in medium armor and the only thing they lack really is penetration but that can be stacked elsewhere in the build. Ultimately magicka builds are getting the short end of the stick in all of this and let's not even get started on magicka dragon knight. I have a friend using that and even with all the procs in the world it still has trouble being competitive.

Let's try to stay on track though talking about crimson and its effect on the meta as well. I saw the took tip damage and it's nothing to sneeze at on a high health tank in pvp. That thing is going to proc repeatedly and hit hard.

Sangwyne

AgentUriel wrote: »

I was disagreeing with you before on a tankiness meta but here it's ... Well kind of obvious. PvP does favor stamina. The only exception would be group play but even then... I see stamina builds winning more often than not. The passives are pretty slick in medium armor and the only thing they lack really is penetration but that can be stacked elsewhere in the build. Ultimately magicka builds are getting the short end of the stick in all of this and let's not even get started on magicka dragon knight. I have a friend using that and even with all the procs in the world it still has trouble being competitive.

Let's try to stay on track though talking about crimson and its effect on the meta as well. I saw the took tip damage and it's nothing to sneeze at on a high health tank in pvp. That thing is going to proc repeatedly and hit hard.

Fair enough. Please do remember though, that it's not tanks that are achieving that tool tip value, it's specifically just the 30k HP boost on Necro's Ravenous Goliath, which any build can make use of. Any build with that skill active will have much more health than any tank. I mentioned it earlier as being one of the main issues, along with Malacath and Crimson's burst, that are driving the problems with PvP.

All these crazy tooltips that I am seeing these youtubers churn out videos on are always made with a Necro using that specific ability, and then somehow people get it into their mind that tanks themselves are the issue. I think the scaling on health is quite reasonable, but of course when you more than double the amount of health you have for 20 seconds, it's going to be out of line. That doesn't mean an entire playstyle needs to suffer to accommodate one busted ability on a DLC class, which completely resets a fight and turns a losing battle into a powerspike with one button. while also granting 30k HP. I don't even think the HP gain is affected by Battle Spirit, so it's a massive heal too.

AgentUriel

@Sangwyne
https://youtu.be/lQdKdNWGXFE
I know you've already seen it from the sound of it but this is the proof and all of the problems. He could have more health than that. That's the real problem. If he went full tank he could reach similar numbers on the tooltip without goliath form. That alone is messed up. Then it's 8 seconds to reactivate. In an AoE. Can you imagine it?

A living rock walks into a bar, get hit by a random beer bottle, procs crimson and clears the room because everyone is dead.

After that then you add goliath. I bet that damage will hit 30,000. That is ridiculous and too much power/reward for a turtling playstyle.

Edit: also don't forget about werewolf or vampire ult... Any class can use those.

Mionikoi

Hmm.

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Sangwyne
I know you've already seen it from the sound of it but this is the proof and all of the problems. He could have more health than that. That's the real problem. If he went full tank he could reach similar numbers on the tooltip without goliath form. That alone is messed up. Then it's 8 seconds to reactivate. In an AoE. Can you imagine it?

A living rock walks into a bar, get hit by a random beer bottle, procs crimson and clears the room because everyone is dead.

After that then you add goliath. I bet that damage will hit 30,000. That is ridiculous and too much power/reward for a turtling playstyle.

Edit: also don't forget about werewolf or vampire ult... Any class can use those.

I propose a solution. For every 10k dmg, perhaps double the effect's cool down timer?

DreadDaedroth

In which book of laws is written that tanks can't do damage and sets can't scale with max health?

Mionikoi

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

In which book of laws is written that tanks can't do damage and sets can't scale with max health?

The book that says that if a zerg goes necromancer 40k-50k health with Crimson 5 peice set and hits bone goliath ultimate for 20 seconds with a proc every 8 seconds causing damage of 20k 3x before bone goliath ends...

We need a hard counter with the return of reflector tanks. Otherwise, burning it with fire will require a zerg with all their ultimates up and magical detonation..... Maybe...

If that book hasn't been written, let's go with that. I think the solution would be to limit the proc set to have a longer timer for every 5-10 k of damage.

Lapin_Logic

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies

Is this what PvP really expects us to be? "Walking CC and Line of Sight for allies"? In both PvP and PvE too? Naw, son.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

*hands you a Dictionary on page "Tank"*

Side note, if this is the "Same as bahara's" then why is no one running that, no one complaining about it and no Youtuber rants about it? Answer, they are not the same, different delivery.

It doesn't sound like you want to "tank" it just sounds like you want immortality and easy mode gameplay.

...Have you actually read it?

3. Military. an armored, self-propelled combat vehicle, armed with cannon and machine guns and moving on a caterpillar tread.

I excluded the definition regarding containers and lakes due to lack of relevance.

Tanks historically were slow but capable. Somehow players got it into their mind that a tank should just be a pile of hitpoints that sits there, takes slightly longer to kill, and poses zero threat. It sure sounds like you want tanks to be sitting ducks and easy pickings while at the same time scaling your healing, shielding, and lifesteal off damage.

If you want durability, you should sacrifice damage. If you want damage, you should sacrifice durability. But currently there's no decision, just stack Stamina and Weapon damage and get the rest handed to you on a silver platter. That needs to change.

In this analogy the tank is a slow machine with a weapon but can shrug off incoming attacks, the Dictionary isn't tailored to MMO definitions, so a DPS / Ganker is a Jet Fighter, agile and launching high damage missiles and Nukes but thin armor.

As for "Some players think a tank should just be a pile of hit points" No, it's not Some players, it's the Devs and most players, I will be happy to watch a link you post of Finn on an ESO Live Dungeon run doing "mad damage" with a Proc sets, Vatershran staff Clown Form "tank" but you won't find it because the truth is he runs big health, debuffs and holds block, plus all the tool tips on a tank are low, it's Only proc cheese that some intern thought up that breaks this, in this thread alone you have most of the tank for life crew moaning that tanks do no damage then you have the likes of yourself who desperately defend these sets because you "need" these (broken) sets,

Like I said I have 4 tanks in EU and 3 in NA, when questing i change gear cos you don't need 39k health for a scamp or mudcrab but for PVP it is ridiculous, 80% of zergs running around with almost identical 45k health builds that smack each other with light attack D Swing or Vatershran staff for half an hour while waiting for procs to cycle while occasionally deleting light armor players that they didn't even know were there just because a proc fired.

Lapin_Logic

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies

Is this what PvP really expects us to be? "Walking CC and Line of Sight for allies"? In both PvP and PvE too? Naw, son.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

*hands you a Dictionary on page "Tank"*

Side note, if this is the "Same as bahara's" then why is no one running that, no one complaining about it and no Youtuber rants about it? Answer, they are not the same, different delivery.

It doesn't sound like you want to "tank" it just sounds like you want immortality and easy mode gameplay.

...Have you actually read it?

3. Military. an armored, self-propelled combat vehicle, armed with cannon and machine guns and moving on a caterpillar tread.

I excluded the definition regarding containers and lakes due to lack of relevance.

Tanks historically were slow but capable. Somehow players got it into their mind that a tank should just be a pile of hitpoints that sits there, takes slightly longer to kill, and poses zero threat. It sure sounds like you want tanks to be sitting ducks and easy pickings while at the same time scaling your healing, shielding, and lifesteal off damage.

If you want durability, you should sacrifice damage. If you want damage, you should sacrifice durability. But currently there's no decision, just stack Stamina and Weapon damage and get the rest handed to you on a silver platter. That needs to change.

TLDR version of my last post.

1. Heavy passives say nothing about damage
2. Sturdy and reinforced are the tank traits, they do not boost damage
3. Shield play enchants are the tank enchant, no DPS run these, they do not boost damage
4. The Devs tank with Tank builds, they should know, they wrote the game.

Just because a broken build element sneaks through doesn't mean you should crutch on it or that it was intended, this is a game with a lot of moving parts so breaks easy.

Soon enough these sets woll be fixed like sloads and viper were.

AgentUriel

@Lapin_Logic I appreciate reading your input. Very well written and it shows that you have done a fair share of pvp and the woes of broken builds. LOL glad it's not just me sweating at the proc scaling.

Lapin_Logic

Mionikoi wrote: »

But having a tank set or even better MORE ******tank sets that have damage that scales off of health.******** Both in PVP and PVE. I want these builds PVP.

So, you want a Magika dude who invested all his points into Mag to be strong but his *Penalty* is he has low resista and is squishy..
And you want Heavy armour dudes who invested into Health and resists to make him hard to kill but his *Penalty* is... Doing high damage because he invested in health????

Think about that from a balance perspective, it just sounds like a fantasy for you.

Lapin_Logic

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Lapin_Logic I appreciate reading your input. Very well written and it shows that you have done a fair share of pvp and the woes of broken builds. LOL glad it's not just me sweating at the proc scaling.

Thanks, it's nice to see someone who considers balance in the game and isn't just selfishly demanding their build isnt changed, I wasn't expecting it to get this wild lol

Mionikoi

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Mionikoi wrote: »

But having a tank set or even better MORE ******tank sets that have damage that scales off of health.******** Both in PVP and PVE. I want these builds PVP.

So, you want a Magika dude who invested all his points into Mag to be strong but his *Penalty* is he has low resista and is squishy..
And you want Heavy armour dudes who invested into Health and resists to make him hard to kill but his *Penalty* is... Doing high damage because he invested in health????

Think about that from a balance perspective, it just sounds like a fantasy for you.

I like what someone said in a jet fighter and tank analogy. But I will put my own spin on it.

Make magicka a quick burst or consistent damage set with low health and low resistance traditionally. The higher the damage, the lower the resistance. Like if you invest entirely in light armor. A jet fighter

Make health a tank. Sets like crim would mean that if you hit the tank and stay around it for too long, the tank will punish you hard. - Abrams build.

Stamina/medium can be an in between. I don't exactly like medium armor to be a parallel of light or heavy. And stamina should probably have the good and bad of both worlds. - Blackhawk

Balance Crimson via increasing the cool down timer to scale with health as damage will. You can insta-die.... Or you can bolt out of the AOE like a smart person... Unless your rooted. Then, oh well?

Plenty of ball groups do this with proximity detonation and catrops... I would like a means of punishing such nonsense.

Sangwyne

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

1. Heavy passives say nothing about damage
2. Sturdy and reinforced are the tank traits, they do not boost damage
3. Shield play enchants are the tank enchant, no DPS run these, they do not boost damage
4. The Devs tank with Tank builds, they should know, they wrote the game.

Just because a broken build element sneaks through doesn't mean you should crutch on it or that it was intended, this is a game with a lot of moving parts so breaks easy.

Soon enough these sets woll be fixed like sloads and viper were.

Medium passives grant damage, durability, mobility, mitigation, stealth, sustain, and utility, with zero penalties, and that's supposed to be balanced? The Devs were the ones who made the decision to scale Crimson and Thews off Health in the first place. So why did you make an entire post questioning their decision, only to back them up when it suits you? If Stamina builds are fine like the Devs intended, then Crimson is also fine like the Devs intended. Can't have it one way and not the other.

Players want Stamina to scale literally everything but then get mad when Health scales some things. How is getting free survivability from scaling damage fundamentally different from getting free damage from scaling survivability? Both two sides of the same coin, but one is completely unacceptable and the other is somehow fine.

Anonx31st

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I don't know if your "Set Efficiency Calculator" is bugged but I just wanted to remind you of the Trinity of Tank, Healing and Gank.

It appears that scaling "Tank" proc sets off max health that you have overlooked that some of your "Tank" sets do damage, a great deal of damage.

Tank sets are supposed to do one thing, Keep you alive by offering you various healing and crowd annoying abilities that deter people from staying close to you but sets like Crimson and others are offering Gank build levels of burst damage And a heal that scales with it And high resists And high health, one might say they were a bit too efficient... like Sloads was

Fix, Reduce the damage on these Heavy armor Tank sets by 90% , but have the Heal component be the same, i.e instead of 7000 damage and 7000 heal change it to 700 damage and 7000 heal, still enabling them to survive and be a walking CC and Line of sight for their allies but not becoming Chuck Norris x Fist of the North Star with a Vatershran staff, Malacath band and a zerg behind them.

How about you stop trying to ruin a role that barely anyone plays and already has a shortage for. More players play PvE than PvP in this game, so this is what ZOS caters around too.

AgentUriel

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

1. Heavy passives say nothing about damage
2. Sturdy and reinforced are the tank traits, they do not boost damage
3. Shield play enchants are the tank enchant, no DPS run these, they do not boost damage
4. The Devs tank with Tank builds, they should know, they wrote the game.

Just because a broken build element sneaks through doesn't mean you should crutch on it or that it was intended, this is a game with a lot of moving parts so breaks easy.

Soon enough these sets woll be fixed like sloads and viper were.

Medium passives grant damage, durability, mobility, mitigation, stealth, sustain, and utility, with zero penalties, and that's supposed to be balanced? The Devs were the ones who made the decision to scale Crimson and Thews off Health in the first place. So why did you make an entire post questioning their decision, only to back them up when it suits you? If Stamina builds are fine like the Devs intended, then Crimson is also fine like the Devs intended. Can't have it one way and not the other.

Players want Stamina to scale literally everything but then get mad when Health scales some things. How is getting free survivability from scaling damage fundamentally different from getting free damage from scaling survivability? Both two sides of the same coin, but one is completely unacceptable and the other is somehow fine.

@Sangwyne you never did respond to me after I showed the evidence with a video about the crimson damage scaling with health. In his video he also is using 38k health, not the most but not squishy and is supposed to be a close replica to what he uses on live.

It's called diminishing returns man. If you have a lot of health than you shouldn't have a lot of damage. If you have some health you should do some damage. If you have barely any health then you should be able to do a lot of damage. Just imagine a slider between health and damage and you get the idea. That's balanced. Health is obviously a stand in for defences and even health recovery too. Why should somebody have all the defense and have an easy option for damage that isn't even an ability for the class itself?

I want to play a game and build a character I feel attached to and want to play again and again. Not load up "cheats" and play for 2 hours and get bored with my god mode. ESO isn't GTA and let's stop pretending a tank should be slapping everyone around like a bully on the playground. That isn't fair.

Also, last point here before I forget, this is a 5 piece set bonus that we are discussing. A proc. It can't be cc'd!! Sure you can be while wearing it. You could be stunned but it will still go off to save your butt in a pinch when you should be in the dirt. Personally I see this set as a beginner set that might as well be a crutch. Use a crutch too much and you'll over rely on it and get angry when it's use is limited/diminished from what it used to be. From what I've seen so far you seem staunch in your opposition to make sure this set just get it's scaling buff of a possible 30,000 damage proc. I would go so far to say you really, really want to use it yourself. Sure it sounds great but again, give it a couple hours, and you'll get bored. You'll anger the ppl you're up against in imperial city and then they will get a sour taste in their mouth and say pvp is rigged.

We will be right back here in the forums in a month and a half I can guarantee it when it should have been nerfed instead of skyward scaling with health.

AgentUriel

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

In which book of laws is written that tanks can't do damage and sets can't scale with max health?

When is it too much damage? 10,000 every 8 seconds? 15k? 20k? Come on man where is the skill in that?
"Oh I just equip this and it casts for me and annihilates any opponents in a circle around me every 8 seconds! Sick!"

Sangwyne

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Sangwyne you never did respond to me after I showed the evidence with a video about the crimson damage scaling with health.

What exactly do you want me to say that I haven't already said? I have some semblance of a life outside these forums, man.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Please do remember though, that it's not tanks that are achieving that tool tip value, it's specifically just the 30k HP boost on Necro's Ravenous Goliath, which any build can make use of. Any build with that skill active will have much more health than any tank. I mentioned it earlier as being one of the main issues, along with Malacath and Crimson's burst, that are driving the problems with PvP.

All these crazy tooltips that I am seeing these youtubers churn out videos on are always made with a Necro using that specific ability, and then somehow people get it into their mind that tanks themselves are the issue.

I specifically called out Necro's Ravenous Goliath as an issue in an earlier comment, mentioned it again as inflating health scaling on gear, and literally said that all these crazy tooltips I am seeing youtubers churn out videos over are always made with a Necro using that specific ability, and then... the very next post you post a youtube video of a Necro abusing that exact same ability to achieve crazy tooltip numbers and ask why I don't respond? Youtubers will always take the most ridiculous build available to hype up their tooltips and generate more views.

38k HP is not very much for a tank, it barely meets the break-even point for Crimson to be as strong as on Live, but if he uses that ability he will have 68k+ HP, perhaps more depending on %HP boosts, far more than any tank can reasonably achieve, and then the health scaling starts to hit silly numbers, yes. At 4:00 he states "If you run an ultimate like Ravenous Goliath that gives you 30 thousand health, it scales your proc even higher", but there is no other ultimate that gives you 30 thousand health. It's literally just Goliath. Goliath is also one of the few abilities that scale skill damage off health too, after ZOS specifically nerfed abilities like Blazing Shield for the exact same reason.

He's wielding Vateshran 2H on a CP 3600 Necro using Ravenous Goliath with Crimson, Balorgh, Malacath and Essence Thief for the 10% untyped damage boost to scale proc damage even more. What did you expect? What are you asking for? Where do tanks come into this at all? There's your guy, Mr. Necro Proc Abuser himself, go nerf him. Leave the rest of us alone, we're not walking around with 70k HP here.

"This one specific ability is busted and allows players that aren't tanks to scale HP far past what tanks can achieve to get ridiculous tooltip numbers on sets like Crimson that scale with HP". Alright, so just nerf that specific ability that's causing other interactions to break, and the rest comes crashing down.

ResidentContrarian

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh goodie, another destroy tanks in PvE so I can kill everyone in PvP thread.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But PvE tanks don’t need to do big damage in a dungeons!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage. Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

Have you considered finding a way you could achieve your goals without affecting PvE?

No one is using crimson et. al. in PvE, except to solo vet trials, which by the way is only proof that the set and hp scaling on other sets like it, is currently overtuned.

There's no real argument about it. When something overperforms in both PvE and PvP, which is often the case when things are getting called out on these forums despite people claiming it is a PvE tank nerf, then there is a problem.

Nevermind the fact that before these sets were introduced or "rebalanced", PvE tanks had no problem surviving.

Mionikoi

AgentUriel wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

In which book of laws is written that tanks can't do damage and sets can't scale with max health?

When is it too much damage? 10,000 every 8 seconds? 15k? 20k? Come on man where is the skill in that?
"Oh I just equip this and it casts for me and annihilates any opponents in a circle around me every 8 seconds! Sick!"

Solution then. For every 10k damage double rhe cool down timer. I said this a few times but no one responds. I am with the pro-tank people. Tanks are far and few in between. Make tanking fun. If dmg scaling with health is a problem, than make it hard to get. Oh, wait. Castle thorn is a DLC dungeon. It is hard to get. And that gear is untradable.

tomofhyrule

I'm always curious about these numbers people are pulling out. I main a tank and I like to focus on health - granted I'm not a min-maxer so I probably missed a bunch of possibilities along the way, but I'm sitting right around 50k in my dungeon/trial gear. And because I'm so heavy into health, I hit like a wet noodle.

How are these people ending up with health twice as high with weapon damage and everything else to boot?

It seems that the problem isn't just "Crimson," it's "Crimson + something else." And the "something else" seems to be transformation ultimates, which are giving a massive health buff.

Would it help to make it so proc sets don't proc when you're transformed? I mean, a bone goliath is obviously not wearing armor...

I will admit Crimson is strange to have an 8m radius if melee is 7. Crimson's really helpful when you're surrounded, but if it only hit in melee range, it'd be much easier to get out of. What if Crimson's AoE just got scaled down to melee, and then you took away the ability for transformation ults to cheese scaled procs?

Mionikoi

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'm always curious about these numbers people are pulling out. I main a tank and I like to focus on health - granted I'm not a min-maxer so I probably missed a bunch of possibilities along the way, but I'm sitting right around 50k in my dungeon/trial gear. And because I'm so heavy into health, I hit like a wet noodle.

How are these people ending up with health twice as high with weapon damage and everything else to boot?

It seems that the problem isn't just "Crimson," it's "Crimson + something else." And the "something else" seems to be transformation ultimates, which are giving a massive health buff.

Would it help to make it so proc sets don't proc when you're transformed? I mean, a bone goliath is obviously not wearing armor...

I will admit Crimson is strange to have an 8m radius if melee is 7. Crimson's really helpful when you're surrounded, but if it only hit in melee range, it'd be much easier to get out of. What if Crimson's AoE just got scaled down to melee, and then you took away the ability for transformation ults to cheese scaled procs?

That would be a way to deal with goliath anyways. Then again, I like the idea of tanks having a gimmick that causes damage rather than the tank being able to do damage outright.

In this case, hit them and hurt yourself. But there are ways around it. In Cyrodiil, seige engines are the bread and butter.

BGs? Not everything is a death match. Tanks\reflector tanks might have the advantage of being the best at holding down points and running the chaos ball.

Merforum

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'm always curious about these numbers people are pulling out. I main a tank and I like to focus on health - granted I'm not a min-maxer so I probably missed a bunch of possibilities along the way, but I'm sitting right around 50k in my dungeon/trial gear. And because I'm so heavy into health, I hit like a wet noodle.

How are these people ending up with health twice as high with weapon damage and everything else to boot?

It seems that the problem isn't just "Crimson," it's "Crimson + something else." And the "something else" seems to be transformation ultimates, which are giving a massive health buff.

Would it help to make it so proc sets don't proc when you're transformed? I mean, a bone goliath is obviously not wearing armor...

I will admit Crimson is strange to have an 8m radius if melee is 7. Crimson's really helpful when you're surrounded, but if it only hit in melee range, it'd be much easier to get out of. What if Crimson's AoE just got scaled down to melee, and then you took away the ability for transformation ults to cheese scaled procs?

I tried using crimson in bgs a lot and it is not a threat to anyone who knows how to dodge. It is just for a few people to wear in a big group who want to have some defense against 1vXers. These exact type of exaggerations were made when it first came out especially on WW but that lasted about 2 months and everyone realized many other sets were better. Because the 2 second delay is an eternity in PVP, it is pure luck if you catch someone with it.

But I suggested changing the delay to 3 seconds making it even more useless for PVP but exactly the same for tanks in PVE. BTW for all normal dungeons and everywhere overland a 'tank' absolutely should be able to do 10K DPS, it is called a BRAWLER style and perfect valid in reality, lore, fantasy. Heavy armor/resistance is very minot protection compared to dodge, stealth, etc, but it is supposed to have zero damage while medium gets infinite damage WHAT. BTW why in the world would medium armor grant BLOCK bonus?

Anyway crimson could have reduced range to 7m, and/or delay increased to 3-4 sec, and goliath ult could be excluded from scaling, also vamp ult. there are many ways to fix some of these without completely ruining stuff and especially without further making PVE tanking harder.

AgentUriel

Mionikoi wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

In which book of laws is written that tanks can't do damage and sets can't scale with max health?

When is it too much damage? 10,000 every 8 seconds? 15k? 20k? Come on man where is the skill in that?
"Oh I just equip this and it casts for me and annihilates any opponents in a circle around me every 8 seconds! Sick!"

Solution then. For every 10k damage double rhe cool down timer. I said this a few times but no one responds. I am with the pro-tank people. Tanks are far and few in between. Make tanking fun. If dmg scaling with health is a problem, than make it hard to get. Oh, wait. Castle thorn is a DLC dungeon. It is hard to get. And that gear is untradable.

Dude castle thorn can be done on normal. Are you telling me that a group of randoms couldn't complete it on normal? Repeatedly? Think about it....

If it's hard to get then it just makes the situation worse. Only elitists will be able to get it and then go and dump on newbies even more. It won't just be a pay wall it will be a skill wall with the reward being easy peasy damage that's ready to equip.

Edit: for the above point think of zaans as well

Yes like you keep repeating you could increase the cool down itself. ZoS could solve the problem that way... However is that actually a solution? Have you ever used a set called mechanical accuity? It's a proc set technically that boosts your crit to 100% every 21 seconds for 5 seconds. This is a great set in pvp. Why? Because you can go take someone out in those 5 seconds and walk away scot free only to do it again. However mechanical accuity isn't that viable on a tank. Critting on low damage is only ok results nothing to write home about...

Now make that proc 20,000 every 16 seconds. You hardly die because you're tanky enough to get the resulting damage still and in that window where it pops you can burst somebody down. Burst what do you mean? Meaning you, and a zerg or just a couple buddies could just walk up, let yourself get smacked by something and just spill blood in an AoE for 20,000. Then do it again in 16 seconds. Just like someone in pvp using mechanical accuity without the tankiness and health stacked. Security and free damage.

Makes you realize why people want this set to go live as is in new eyes right?

AgentUriel

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'm always curious about these numbers people are pulling out. I main a tank and I like to focus on health - granted I'm not a min-maxer so I probably missed a bunch of possibilities along the way, but I'm sitting right around 50k in my dungeon/trial gear. And because I'm so heavy into health, I hit like a wet noodle.

How are these people ending up with health twice as high with weapon damage and everything else to boot?

It seems that the problem isn't just "Crimson," it's "Crimson + something else." And the "something else" seems to be transformation ultimates, which are giving a massive health buff.

Would it help to make it so proc sets don't proc when you're transformed? I mean, a bone goliath is obviously not wearing armor...

I will admit Crimson is strange to have an 8m radius if melee is 7. Crimson's really helpful when you're surrounded, but if it only hit in melee range, it'd be much easier to get out of. What if Crimson's AoE just got scaled down to melee, and then you took away the ability for transformation ults to cheese scaled procs?

I'll link this video as much as I need to. A home with a google search bar can find this info out and use it or a version of it easy peasy. He made it to call out that this will be exploited. I am calling it out with his link in hand to make sure it's known. Frankly this won't be hard to accomplish. From my perspective it's either change the scaling on this set OR change the scaling on all the other sets that could increase the damage further. Pick one.

https://youtu.be/lQdKdNWGXFE

AgentUriel

Sangwyne wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

@Sangwyne you never did respond to me after I showed the evidence with a video about the crimson damage scaling with health.

What exactly do you want me to say that I haven't already said? I have some semblance of a life outside these forums, man.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Please do remember though, that it's not tanks that are achieving that tool tip value, it's specifically just the 30k HP boost on Necro's Ravenous Goliath, which any build can make use of. Any build with that skill active will have much more health than any tank. I mentioned it earlier as being one of the main issues, along with Malacath and Crimson's burst, that are driving the problems with PvP.

All these crazy tooltips that I am seeing these youtubers churn out videos on are always made with a Necro using that specific ability, and then somehow people get it into their mind that tanks themselves are the issue.

I specifically called out Necro's Ravenous Goliath as an issue in an earlier comment, mentioned it again as inflating health scaling on gear, and literally said that all these crazy tooltips I am seeing youtubers churn out videos over are always made with a Necro using that specific ability, and then... the very next post you post a youtube video of a Necro abusing that exact same ability to achieve crazy tooltip numbers and ask why I don't respond? Youtubers will always take the most ridiculous build available to hype up their tooltips and generate more views.

38k HP is not very much for a tank, it barely meets the break-even point for Crimson to be as strong as on Live, but if he uses that ability he will have 68k+ HP, perhaps more depending on %HP boosts, far more than any tank can reasonably achieve, and then the health scaling starts to hit silly numbers, yes. At 4:00 he states "If you run an ultimate like Ravenous Goliath that gives you 30 thousand health, it scales your proc even higher", but there is no other ultimate that gives you 30 thousand health. It's literally just Goliath. Goliath is also one of the few abilities that scale skill damage off health too, after ZOS specifically nerfed abilities like Blazing Shield for the exact same reason.

He's wielding Vateshran 2H on a CP 3600 Necro using Ravenous Goliath with Crimson, Balorgh, Malacath and Essence Thief for the 10% untyped damage boost to scale proc damage even more. What did you expect? What are you asking for? Where do tanks come into this at all? There's your guy, Mr. Necro Proc Abuser himself, go nerf him. Leave the rest of us alone, we're not walking around with 70k HP here.

"This one specific ability is busted and allows players that aren't tanks to scale HP far past what tanks can achieve to get ridiculous tooltip numbers on sets like Crimson that scale with HP". Alright, so just nerf that specific ability that's causing other interactions to break, and the rest comes crashing down.

Holy crap go nerf him... But leave the weapon out that's actually within reach but no I won't abuse it or use it... Really? Realllllllly... (Jim Carrey from the mask)

This isn't just a one off there are other ways to abuse this. It isn't just about the weapon damage. You are not understanding or unwilling to. You were called biased before an I have to agree now. Literally you just need health. I mean have you PvP'd much in the past year? At all? Seen the white werewolf with this set and allessian just not dying to 3 people running damage specs only to watch him play a game with his health bar where it just goes up and down only to go right to full again? Now put this on a vampire ult 10,000 hp, stam, mag for 20 seconds that any class can do. Now put this on goliath for a class (necromancer) that most people think is overpowered or superior at least to other classes besides warden.

Are we noticing a connection here? This is not hard to attain if this goes live. You don't need this set as is in pve. No tank needs this in PvE. Not to mention if you need extra damage as a tank for overland content what do you think the companion system was being implemented for? Or changing sets to temporarily boost damage to get through content solo like everyone else has done for the past like... Years? This is nothing new. Why all of the complaints?

20,000 damage, no 15k is still too much and that is easy to get. Every 8 seconds get out of here. And it heals? Put it in a dumpster and light it in fire. This is horrendous and I can't believe I have to spell it out.

ResidentContrarian

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'm always curious about these numbers people are pulling out. I main a tank and I like to focus on health - granted I'm not a min-maxer so I probably missed a bunch of possibilities along the way, but I'm sitting right around 50k in my dungeon/trial gear. And because I'm so heavy into health, I hit like a wet noodle.

How are these people ending up with health twice as high with weapon damage and everything else to boot?

It seems that the problem isn't just "Crimson," it's "Crimson + something else." And the "something else" seems to be transformation ultimates, which are giving a massive health buff.

Would it help to make it so proc sets don't proc when you're transformed? I mean, a bone goliath is obviously not wearing armor...

I will admit Crimson is strange to have an 8m radius if melee is 7. Crimson's really helpful when you're surrounded, but if it only hit in melee range, it'd be much easier to get out of. What if Crimson's AoE just got scaled down to melee, and then you took away the ability for transformation ults to cheese scaled procs?

Well for you, since you like HP you will love this album. Thank Gaze of Sithis

https://imgur.com/a/AYuYOkp


Edit: oops forgot these two:


shimmering, only minor toughness:





shimmering, minor toughness vamp:



keep in mind, not optimized.