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CP 2.0 FAQ

  • silvereyes
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    silvereyes wrote: »
    twev wrote: »
    silvereyes wrote: »
    ZOS_SamL wrote: »
    The majority of the player-base right now sits around CP 410.
    To anyone at CP 410 today, be advised that if your goal is to max out your vertical progression at CP 1800, similar to reaching CP 810 on live today, your goalpost just got over twice as far away.
    aGfSPps.png
    However, for anyone who mainly plays PVE content, I would recommend setting CP 1200 as your goal, not CP 1800. That will get you most of what you need from CP to be as effective at your role as you can for as little XP as possible, and the amount of XP required to reach that mark is somewhat close to what CP 810 costs on live today (about 21m XP more, when starting from CP 410).

    CP 1800 is nice to top off a little bit of crit or extra off-resources, some small mitigation and combat ability cost reduction (e.g. sprint, dodge roll, block). However, from a practical standpoint, the incremental combat gains from those extra CP probably aren't worth grinding over.

    Personally, after CP 1200, the first things I would probably invest points into would be unlocking extra active abilities for situational swapping (e.g. AOE for trash vs direct damage for bosses), not passives. In other words, I'd switch to horizontal progression at CP 1200.

    I suspect that the majority of players 'at CP 410' is probably based on the players who quit playing around CP 410, but are considered 'players' because ESO touts they sold 19 million copies.
    I'm not sure what would cause you to think that. Boosting numbers for marketing epeen is one thing. Analyzing the current player-base to assess the impact of the CP 2.0 changes is quite another.

    Matt Firor and Rich Lambert have both stated in the past that a large component of the player-base is fairly casual and shows up to play through new story quests 1-3 times a year before logging off again. It makes complete sense to me that such players would make up the "majority of the player-base", and would have CP levels well below cap.

    So they rework everything for the occasional tourist but the people who spend hours every week in the game get shafted hard?

    I'm glad we have something official that acknowledges the disregard they have for their loyal player base.
    I'm not sure what you constitute as getting "shafted", but I'd like to make several observations.
    1. Regarding CP not getting scaled to the new curve, I don't think that high CP players are getting affected any worse than the average player by Update 29, relative to their playtime. The new grind is frustrating for everyone. Everyone is seeing the proverbial goalpost recede into the distance this update, and that extra XP to earn translates to game time. For those that play infrequently, I would argue that the cap increasing from 810 to 1800 is even more of a shaft to them. If it's taken this long for them to reach the 56m or so XP needed for CP 410 in CP 1.0, imagine how long it will take them to reach the 434m required for CP 1800 in CP 2.0!
    2. Regarding high CP DPS nerfs, I'm not sure that they will be as impactful as everyone fears. I seem to remember 60k DPS being really good just a couple of years ago. Granted, new hard content has been released since then, but my guess is that ZOS wants to wait and see how the vet player base adjusts strategies before nerfing any content.
    3. High CP or loyalty to the game does not equate with high DPS. I would wager that that majority of the high CP player base have gotten tired and moved on from score pushing to other activities by now. The nerf to their DPS this patch is largely within the normal range for a nerf in any given update.
    4. Calling low CP players "tourists" and devaluing them because they don't play XP-earning content as much as others seems to be a pretty toxic attitude. They paid for the game, same as anyone else. Just because you might not interact with them on a daily basis doesn't mean that the devs should value their experiences less than yours. I would think that making more content accessible to them would be a boon for the game.
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  • Ringod123
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    Game is dead to me once the update goes live with a 1 to 1 CP conversion that will see me be 1000's of hours away from parity in CP enabled PvP, something that already took me 2.5K hours to get and something I have now had for the last 1K hours of playtime. Do ZOS honestly think 4-5K hours playtime needed is a good amount of hours needed to be on par with others?

    Utterly crap design decisions from ZOS once again, this is not in any way going to attract new players to the game when they find out they now need 4-5K hours to be on par with others in PvP, honestly can't believe anyone at ZOS thinks this is a good idea.

    Will be actively advising all my friends to stay away from this from now on, unless they are happy playing an MMO like a single player game and nothing else, what a shame, RIP ESO 2014-2021.
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  • Fischblut
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    The cap on gear has been at 160 forever, and we don’t foresee that changing anytime soon either.

    It either means that gear cap will not be increased forever, or... it will be increased, but not now :o
    It’s possible to add more! Something we’re happy with in CP 2.0 is that the crafting tree, non-combat system will play a larger role in CP now, which reflects what all players participate in. This will also let us tie those aspects of the tree into other aspects of the game.
    We’ll also be monitoring the economy with the new crafting bonuses very closely.

    Yes, something I'm happy with in CP 2.0 is crafting tree as well :smiley:
    Nobody can touch green CP tree with intentions to nerf it more - only buffs are allowed! :D Some of those green stars = the only nice thing coming in new CP update (and possibly ever after) :(
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  • Katheriah
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    ZOS_SamL wrote: »
    An 810 on CP1.0 will feel just as strong walking into CP2.0.

    Lol.
    ZOS_SamL wrote: »
    The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players.

    I like how those two lines are unironically in the same message.
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  • Fennwitty
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    @ZOS_SamL Thanks for the information.

    Can you get clarity from the dev team if they see Craft line as being in a good place?

    There are many concerns that the large number of actively slotted skills is a detriment to enjoyment, and punishing for console players.

    Some threads on PTS forum.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562916/do-you-like-more-micromanagement-with-cp-2-0

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559378/pts-update-29-feedback-thread-for-champion-point-system

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562969/too-many-craft-stars-are-pointlessly-equippable
    PC NA
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  • Rkindaleft
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    ZOS_SamL wrote: »
    CP 2.0 FAQ
    4. How will you combat the gap between low CP and high CP players?
    In CP 2.0, you will have a finite number of passives but an infinite number of slottables. With this new system, we as developers can continue to build and add more active or slottables to give more choices for players. With a smaller number of passives and cool and exciting things in slottables, this should help control the power gap.

    The biggest reason the gap exists is because the game does not teach them how to play. A new player learns about weaving in a level up tip and a load screen. The game doesn't say anything about the benefits of a rotation. People who invested time from outside sources and practiced are the ones who are near the top now, and I feel that the gap would be substantially lower if the game actually helped them learn. Trying to lower the gap but not providing any way for the player to improve themselves with the information that the game gives a player is asinine.

    You're also disregarding player skill from the equation. The current champion point system (pre-CP 2.0) is definitely a factor in determining the strength difference between a CP300 and a CP810, but there are plenty of CP810s who no nothing about combat, gear, weaving and everything else, because again, the game does not teach them how to play. There are also plenty of CP500s that can respectfully pull 30k+ regular dummy dps because they practiced and received knowledge from outside sources.
    Edited by Rkindaleft on March 16, 2021 6:32AM
    https://youtube.com/@rkindaleft PlayStation NA. I upload parses and trial POVs sometimes.

    Tic Tacs Tormentor | Immortal Beemer | Gryphon Fart | Codslayer | Yawnbringer | Drainsbreaker
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  • honey_badger82
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    As I have seen mentioned in this thread the gap between the ceiling dps players and the floor dps is not the current CP system. There are so many dynamics to build for and very little of the game that teaches it.
    When I first started playing I had no idea that monsters and bosses in dungeons had been given armor so I needed to build penetration into my character. I didn't know about crit chance or what the heck 5/1/1 was. I didn't even see the undaunted and fighters guild lines as worth grinding for just a few %. I didn't even realize that heavy attacks only restored the resource to that which the weapon was associated! I had a templar with a 2h sword and was using sweeps instead of jabs for the heal over the crit.
    Nerfing pen and crit along with all these other sweeping changes to drop high end dps will not change the gap in power one single bit. There will still be cp810+ players running around with 2 pieces of this armor set, 3 of that one, another 2 of this, 2 of that, etc. They may not have a mundus stone or just have one they happened to come across not caring or knowing that there are others out there better suited to their needs. Their weapons will be whatever trait they found it with and same with its enchantment.

    Meanwhile the middle to high end players will seek out new sets, skills etc to make their builds functional for what they like for mid tier players like myself and the high tier will still be standing on their pedestal above all others. I mean when there is more dps on my templar tanks back bar than both the two cp 810 dps and cp 810 healer in my group for some random dungeon it tells you all their is about where the power gap really lies.

    I know I have more dps than the rest of my group on countless randoms because I tank the boss... the dps fight the boss... the health bar of the boss does not go down much... this goes on for like 5 minutes before I say ok let me pitch in. Suddenly the bosses health rapidly drains and is dead in less than 2 more minutes. I only have 40k dps without parse food on my tanks back bar against the trial dummy.
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  • Chrysa1is
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    It's important nowadays to read between the lines and look for ambiguity in wording.

    "An 810 on CP1.0 will feel just as strong as walking into CP2.0"

    There's a difference between "being" and "feeling". What i get from this is that i won't be as strong no matter what. There's nothing to be said on that. You'll feel strong, but you won't actually be strong.
    Edited by Chrysa1is on March 7, 2021 10:15AM
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  • HumbleThaumaturge
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    "An 810 on CP1.0 will feel just as strong walking into CP2.0."

    Simply not true. With CP 1.0, my healers could enjoy healer buffs, as well as buffs to physical resistance, spell resistance, crit resistance, damage mitigation, and damage. With CP 2.0, with a little more than 1100 CP, I don't have enough CP to achieve the same level of resistances, damage mitigation, and damage. With CP 2.0, my healers are much more fragile. I am bewildered by the statement, "An 810 on CP1.0 will feel just as strong walking into CP2.0."
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  • The_Lex
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    ZOS_SamL wrote: »
    CP 2.0 FAQ

    Hey everyone,
    ...
    An 810 on CP1.0 will feel just as strong walking into CP2.0.

    This is objectively and quantifiably untrue. If ZOS read the feedback from the countless tests and reports from the PTS, you wouldn’t have made such a false statement.

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  • Rkindaleft
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    Reading the whole post it seems so out of touch with the actual problems that players are facing and experiencing in the game.

    I don't mean to throw shade but the post reads like they don't understand the difference between what a skill gap is or the difference between the floor and the ceiling. Lowering the skill gap by lowering the skill ceiling arguably doesn't make anything better for the players at the bottom because you haven't increased the floor. The floor would be already higher on average if the game actually taught you about what a rotation is, or how to weave/the benefits of weaving (you literally have it in a level up tip that most people either don't see or just ignore) The same people will be able to clear the same content. The people in the middle will struggle to clear content that they previously weren't struggling with, or will no longer be able to clear said content, and the people at the floor will still be unable to clear that content. Literally every time ZOS wants to nerf DPS for example the only people it really hurts are the ones that are trying to improve their DPS, for example the progression style middle tier player, which should be the opposite of what they are trying to achieve. Every time it happens it bars more and more people from an already small and progressively getting smaller endgame community.
    Edited by Rkindaleft on March 8, 2021 12:40AM
    https://youtube.com/@rkindaleft PlayStation NA. I upload parses and trial POVs sometimes.

    Tic Tacs Tormentor | Immortal Beemer | Gryphon Fart | Codslayer | Yawnbringer | Drainsbreaker
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  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    This is not an encouraging thread. They have been trying to decrease the power gap between good players and bad players for years, and they fail to understand the simple concept that if you lower the ceiling to the floor, you are essentially collapsing the house. This method is never going to work. You need to start from the ground up, and CP is not the way to do it.

    There are really several tiers to DPS progression, and almost none of it has a thing to do with CP. Sure more CP means more DPS, but that misses the issue.

    In the beginning, its about a basic build gear setup, and learning the basics of how combat functions. 75% of the DPS in group finder are at this stage, and failing. They dont understand how damage scales, they dont understand global cooldowns or basic weaving, they dont even understand the difference between DOTs and spammables, let along the complexity of how buffs/debuffs. The only thing that is going to fix this is better tutorials.

    Next you actually get into some sort of damage rotation. These people are trying to practice on dummies and are at the beginning of learning to DPS. This is where a skill gap (the ability to press buttons) comes into play. First they must master a light weave, then the must master a basic static rotation. This gap is not going to be closed by changes to the CP system. It is closed by practice on a target dummy, which some people will NEVER do. Combat is complex enough in this game that if you dont practice, you wont master it. Some people wont, so frankly, worrying about them in the power gap conversation is a waste of time.

    If you want to focus on a power gap, the one to focus on is not become bottom tier and top tier, it should be between mid tier (those that are willing to put the time and effort into this game) and the top tier.

    The two biggest things that separate these two again have nothing to do with CP. They come down to a dynamic vs static rotation, and then it comes down to APM. APM is always going to be a barrier, unless you increase the GCD, which frankly sounds like a bad idea. They could probably go a long way to reducing the difference between static and dynamic rotation by standardizing skill durations, but again, not a CP issue.

    Rant aside, nothing they are doing here is going to shrink the power gap. Also, you cant say you plan to reduce DPS by X amount and that an 810 CP today will be as powerful as they are tomorrow, also while simultaneously moving the goal post. There is a gaping hole in that story.

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  • Runefang
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    This is not an encouraging thread. They have been trying to decrease the power gap between good players and bad players for years, and they fail to understand the simple concept that if you lower the ceiling to the floor, you are essentially collapsing the house. This method is never going to work. You need to start from the ground up, and CP is not the way to do it.

    There are really several tiers to DPS progression, and almost none of it has a thing to do with CP. Sure more CP means more DPS, but that misses the issue.

    In the beginning, its about a basic build gear setup, and learning the basics of how combat functions. 75% of the DPS in group finder are at this stage, and failing. They dont understand how damage scales, they dont understand global cooldowns or basic weaving, they dont even understand the difference between DOTs and spammables, let along the complexity of how buffs/debuffs. The only thing that is going to fix this is better tutorials.

    Next you actually get into some sort of damage rotation. These people are trying to practice on dummies and are at the beginning of learning to DPS. This is where a skill gap (the ability to press buttons) comes into play. First they must master a light weave, then the must master a basic static rotation. This gap is not going to be closed by changes to the CP system. It is closed by practice on a target dummy, which some people will NEVER do. Combat is complex enough in this game that if you dont practice, you wont master it. Some people wont, so frankly, worrying about them in the power gap conversation is a waste of time.

    If you want to focus on a power gap, the one to focus on is not become bottom tier and top tier, it should be between mid tier (those that are willing to put the time and effort into this game) and the top tier.

    The two biggest things that separate these two again have nothing to do with CP. They come down to a dynamic vs static rotation, and then it comes down to APM. APM is always going to be a barrier, unless you increase the GCD, which frankly sounds like a bad idea. They could probably go a long way to reducing the difference between static and dynamic rotation by standardizing skill durations, but again, not a CP issue.

    Rant aside, nothing they are doing here is going to shrink the power gap. Also, you cant say you plan to reduce DPS by X amount and that an 810 CP today will be as powerful as they are tomorrow, also while simultaneously moving the goal post. There is a gaping hole in that story.

    Standarizing skill durations would be a huge help. DKs for example have a very poor static rotation due to the huge variety of durations on their skills. Nightblades suffer too due to being reliant on a burst damage window with all dots being up at the time. Compare that to Cros and Wardens which have static rotations that are almost as good as their dynamic varieties, at least on a dummy/static fight.

    Broadening the availability/viability of group support buffs/debuffs/sets would also help the mid-tier. Currently the meta is rigid enough that a Warden and Templar healer are almost always a must as well as 2-3x Necros with one in EC, a Zen DK, a Sorc of some kind and then the rest are all the best dps class for the trial. By "must" I mean they're a must to achieve optimal group dps. If more people could turn up on their most comfortable/preferred class and still contribute to group dps through those buffs and sets then we'd see the middle tier group dps rise.
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  • The_Lex
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    Reading the whole post it seems so out of touch with the actual problems that players are facing and experiencing in the game.

    I don't mean to throw shade but the post reads like they don't understand the difference between what a skill gap is or the difference between the floor and the ceiling. Lowering the skill gap by lowering the skill ceiling arguably doesn't make anything better for the players at the bottom because you haven't increased the floor. The floor would be already higher on average if the game actually taught you about what a rotation is, or how to weave/the benefits of weaving (you literally have it in a level up tip that most people either don't see or just ignore) The same people will be able to clear the same content. The people in the middle will struggle to clear content that they previously weren't struggling with, or will no longer be able to clear said content, and the people at the floor will still be unable to clear that content. Literally every time ZOS wants to nerf DPS for example the only people it really hurts are the ones that are trying to improve their DPS, for example the progression style middle tier player, which should be the opposite of what they are trying to achieve. Every time it happens it bars more and more people from an already small and progressively getting smaller endgame community.

    The Middle Class always gets squeezed. Funny in this context, but it’s true.
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  • Enodoc
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    Is the new CP formula available? The previous formula was:
    (((x / (cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000) if x ≤ cap
    (((x / (cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000 * 1.5) if x ] cap
    and we know the cap is now 3600 (i.e., there is no cap), so it should be
    (((x / (3600 ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000)
    but we also know the curve below 1800 is different, meaning that above formula presumably only applies for 1800-3600.
    Edited by Enodoc on March 8, 2021 1:17PM
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  • phantasmalD
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    Formula hasn't changed but the soft cap is 1800, not 3600.
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  • VaranisArano
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    To add my own two cents to the "lower the ceiling" discussion, these sort of blanket nerfs always hurt progression groups worse than the high end groups who've already cleared the content, even though they both get nerfed.

    Why?
    Experience.

    Think about Vet Maelstrom Arena. The first time you complete it, it's incredibly difficult because you are successfully doing all the mechanics and all your tactics for the first time. But after that first run, subsequent runs get progressively easier because you've already done it. You've experienced all the mechanics. You know what to do.

    And that's how you get people running vMA naked.

    It's always harder to clear something for the first time. The more you do it, the easier it gets, even after you've been nerfed.

    In the same way, the high end groups who've already cleared the content have experience on their side. Even when their DPS gets nerfed, they already have the familiarity with the mechanics and tactics of boss and mob fights to fall back on. Sure, losing 15-20% of their DPS sucks, but ZOS can't take away their experience.

    It's the progression groups who were already straining their DPS to complete the content and don't have the experience with the content to fall back on that get hit the hardest by "lower the ceiling" nerfs.
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  • Fennwitty
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    I strongly agree with the point ESO doesn't do a good job of teaching people how to fight.

    It basically doesn't even try.

    I remember the Elsweyr tutorial covered light attacks, heavy attacks, blocking, interrupt, break free. That's it. And the character had to be using a 2-handed sword to complete that part. The new West Skyrim tutorial I only did once, but I don't remember even that amount of information being conveyed.

    It was generic enough to be class neutral but at the same time, barely scratched the surface.

    That's a fine introduction sure. But it has to be followed up with

    1. Light attack weaving -- even if the new player can't get it to work during the tutorial, the NPCs/game should have them try a few times and promise that it will increase their damage.

    2. Value of skill use (particulary) DoTs in addition to direct attacks. Not to mention self-heals.

    Now every class is different and they have almost no skills at low level. But the game could provide some kind of 'temporary skills' for the purpose of practice. We've seen characters can have their skill bar overwritten by things like Frostvault Skeevatons, Blackheart Haven boss, Werewolf, etc. so it should be possible to apply basic skills to any character in the tutorial.

    3. Include something like a training dummy that can be used multiple times. The dps limit can be extremely low -- it's just a tutorial -- but this would give players the chance to throw several skills at a target and practice moving, etc. If the game praises the new player for being able to string together multiple attacks, that's a great start.

    4. Set bonuses. The Elsweyr tutorial (which I did the most) had like a single green weapon you could get. It was exciting at the time, but ultimately not enough. At minimum, new characters should be able/encouraged to collect something that provides a set bonus -- set bonuses are *huge*. Maybe the three-piece trainee set. The point is players have to know to look for set bonuses early.
    Edited by Fennwitty on March 8, 2021 4:15PM
    PC NA
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  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Runefang wrote: »
    This is not an encouraging thread. They have been trying to decrease the power gap between good players and bad players for years, and they fail to understand the simple concept that if you lower the ceiling to the floor, you are essentially collapsing the house. This method is never going to work. You need to start from the ground up, and CP is not the way to do it.

    There are really several tiers to DPS progression, and almost none of it has a thing to do with CP. Sure more CP means more DPS, but that misses the issue.

    In the beginning, its about a basic build gear setup, and learning the basics of how combat functions. 75% of the DPS in group finder are at this stage, and failing. They dont understand how damage scales, they dont understand global cooldowns or basic weaving, they dont even understand the difference between DOTs and spammables, let along the complexity of how buffs/debuffs. The only thing that is going to fix this is better tutorials.

    Next you actually get into some sort of damage rotation. These people are trying to practice on dummies and are at the beginning of learning to DPS. This is where a skill gap (the ability to press buttons) comes into play. First they must master a light weave, then the must master a basic static rotation. This gap is not going to be closed by changes to the CP system. It is closed by practice on a target dummy, which some people will NEVER do. Combat is complex enough in this game that if you dont practice, you wont master it. Some people wont, so frankly, worrying about them in the power gap conversation is a waste of time.

    If you want to focus on a power gap, the one to focus on is not become bottom tier and top tier, it should be between mid tier (those that are willing to put the time and effort into this game) and the top tier.

    The two biggest things that separate these two again have nothing to do with CP. They come down to a dynamic vs static rotation, and then it comes down to APM. APM is always going to be a barrier, unless you increase the GCD, which frankly sounds like a bad idea. They could probably go a long way to reducing the difference between static and dynamic rotation by standardizing skill durations, but again, not a CP issue.

    Rant aside, nothing they are doing here is going to shrink the power gap. Also, you cant say you plan to reduce DPS by X amount and that an 810 CP today will be as powerful as they are tomorrow, also while simultaneously moving the goal post. There is a gaping hole in that story.

    Standarizing skill durations would be a huge help. DKs for example have a very poor static rotation due to the huge variety of durations on their skills. Nightblades suffer too due to being reliant on a burst damage window with all dots being up at the time. Compare that to Cros and Wardens which have static rotations that are almost as good as their dynamic varieties, at least on a dummy/static fight.

    Broadening the availability/viability of group support buffs/debuffs/sets would also help the mid-tier. Currently the meta is rigid enough that a Warden and Templar healer are almost always a must as well as 2-3x Necros with one in EC, a Zen DK, a Sorc of some kind and then the rest are all the best dps class for the trial. By "must" I mean they're a must to achieve optimal group dps. If more people could turn up on their most comfortable/preferred class and still contribute to group dps through those buffs and sets then we'd see the middle tier group dps rise.

    Yep. If they really want to close the gap between mid and top tier DPS, the first place to start is with skill duration. Even on something like necro that you can play statically, you have skills at 3, 10, 12, and 16 seconds. You can absolutely make a static rotation work on a dummy for about the same net DPS result, but it will fall apart faster in actual content vs a well played dynamic rotation. Going from a static to a dynamic rotation is the biggest leap you have to make as a DPS, if monster numbers in actual content are your goal.

    Now I am not advocating for all skills to have the same duration. That would be boring. Skills like blastbones give a unique flavor to a rotation, which I like. But they could definitely attempt to standardize some of the longer skills, and attempt to keep them as multiples of one another. Just as an example. If you reduced some skills from 12 to 10, and increased others from the 16 to 20 range, you would see fare less drop off in the typical 2-line static 20 second rotation when you get into actual combat.
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  • FinrodMacBeorn
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    ...

    Now I am not advocating for all skills to have the same duration. That would be boring. Skills like blastbones give a unique flavor to a rotation, which I like. But they could definitely attempt to standardize some of the longer skills, and attempt to keep them as multiples of one another. Just as an example. If you reduced some skills from 12 to 10, and increased others from the 16 to 20 range, you would see fare less drop off in the typical 2-line static 20 second rotation when you get into actual combat.

    Definitely. The major headache in a dynamic rotation is coming from the longer duration skills which usually are on the backbar. Standardizing them to multiples of 10 would help a lot, in particular reducing the number of bar swaps.

    And balancing is pretty easy, as you just would have to adapt the costs to the changed duration.
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  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    As far as LA weaving is concerned, I think they should lose the queue.

    I understand the purpose behind the queue in a HA build, but for LA's, it makes little sense, especially when it's the queue that is typically the reason behind 'losing' those light attacks. Granted, you won't know this from practice or the super handy leveling tooltip. You might happen across it from an exhaustive Google search or some inside input from the Andy S's of the world. Even then, even using things like metronome, it's still not always easy to know if you're going too fast, or if the game just isn't registering things like it often does (not).

    A perfect weave should be a perfect weave, and should result in the highest DPS and the highest resource burn. An imperfect weave, even without the queue getting in the way, could be 'punished' by adding an additional mini-cooldown before the LA/Skill fires, but the skill should still fire, not get lost in some arbitrary limbo.

    There should be in game trainers for this, not just the target dummy. Provide a repeatable area that helps people understand how they are missing the timing and allows them the practice necessary to correct or improve it. Blindly beating on the target dummy doesn't provide this until it just accidentally 'clicks,' at which point you already know.

    Until you can identify what you're doing wrong (if anything), it's still guesswork. I've been at it seven years and still don't weave as consistently as I'd like.

    Flippin' Guitar Hero and half a dozen other games offer a rhythm based visual feedback UI. A combat based one, with report and useful suggestions at the end would go a long way toward this. A similar gauntlet could be provided for healing and tanking, I'm sure.

    The other option I've mentioned in the past is the anti-rotation: Games like God of War and Witcher all take a combination of player skill, character skill (including passives, etc.) and then throw in some random reaction time based options to get special attacks or combo's by timing random key synergies at the right time. This would allow someone that might have good reaction time but sucks at the rotation rhythm the ability to hit harder, augmented by their own reaction and character specs.

    There are multiple ways to achieve some improvement for those still trying to improve. The CP mod is simply not one of them.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
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  • Agalloch
    Agalloch
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    Too bad they didn't scaled our xp and cp 1.0 ranks to 2.0

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  • smittyhd60
    smittyhd60
    Soul Shriven
    Let me start by saying that I am currently at CP 855 and what follows is what I see that affects players around my level. If you are already at CP 1800 or above, then the change to CP 2.0 will not have as much of an affect on you.

    A couple of thoughts about the before CP2.0 and now with CP2.0.

    5. Total DPS output seems lower in CP2.0. What’s the reasoning for this? Will tanks/healers get more utility in CP2.0?
    The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players.

    I am puzzled as why ZoS thought this was such a game breaking issue that they intend to nerf DPS a flat 15-20% across the board with this update. CP helps your DPS of course, but so does gear set choices to include the improvement level (epic or legendary), the trait & the enchantment. Add in your skill choices, your rotation, mundus stone & if you are doing a light attack between each skill. All these play an important role. There are some players who work harder to learn and improve than other players do. There will always be a big DPS gap no matter what ZoS changes.

    So what did ZoS do to accomplish the flat 15-20% DPS nerf. ZoS took this out of the CP side of the house.

    1. ZoS reduced the maximum number of CP points you can put into any given star.
    2. ZoS reduced the maximum value you receive from maxing out any given star.
    3. The next change ZoS made was to require players to spend their CP points on a lower-level Star to access Stars higher up in the tree.

    These three changes are an issue because they remove the ability for each player to customize their characters as they want. Unless you really want or need the lower level Star, you are needlessly spending your very limited CP points and you will not be able to optimize your build until you have leveled up to the soft CP Cap of CP 1800. At my CP 855 level, I have 285 CP points to spend out of a maximum of 1200 points per tree.

    This brings me to this quote from @ZOS_SamL “If you’re at CP1.0 810, you should be able to do all of the exact same content with CP2.0.”

    If the DPS nerf is anywhere close to the 15% to 20% ZoS was shooting for and add in the above 3 items, a CP 810 level player is back to about a CP 182 level (Going from 810 to 3600 points is a 77.5% increase, So, 22.5% of 810 is 182.25). For a lot of players, the work that was put into building and maximizing their characters for CP 810 has been destroyed by this update.
    .
    I have not completed a parse since CP 2.0 dropped yesterday, so I am not sure just how much of a nerf I have received but having only 23.75% of the available CP point to spend + the 3 changes mentioned above, I am positive I will not be able to do all the exact same content that I could do pre-CP 2.0. It is going to take a major overhaul of my characters plus about 400 more levels to mitigate this nerf.

    When I read comments by some veteran players saying they were cheated with this change. I can understand where they are coming from.

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  • Agalloch
    Agalloch
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    ESO is the only MMO where progression is nerfed.

    CP 2.0 is nice but the nerfs are really bad.

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  • UrbWzrd
    UrbWzrd
    ✭✭
    Runefang wrote: »
    This is not an encouraging thread. They have been trying to decrease the power gap between good players and bad players for years, and they fail to understand the simple concept that if you lower the ceiling to the floor, you are essentially collapsing the house. This method is never going to work. You need to start from the ground up, and CP is not the way to do it.

    There are really several tiers to DPS progression, and almost none of it has a thing to do with CP. Sure more CP means more DPS, but that misses the issue.

    In the beginning, its about a basic build gear setup, and learning the basics of how combat functions. 75% of the DPS in group finder are at this stage, and failing. They dont understand how damage scales, they dont understand global cooldowns or basic weaving, they dont even understand the difference between DOTs and spammables, let along the complexity of how buffs/debuffs. The only thing that is going to fix this is better tutorials.

    Next you actually get into some sort of damage rotation. These people are trying to practice on dummies and are at the beginning of learning to DPS. This is where a skill gap (the ability to press buttons) comes into play. First they must master a light weave, then the must master a basic static rotation. This gap is not going to be closed by changes to the CP system. It is closed by practice on a target dummy, which some people will NEVER do. Combat is complex enough in this game that if you dont practice, you wont master it. Some people wont, so frankly, worrying about them in the power gap conversation is a waste of time.

    If you want to focus on a power gap, the one to focus on is not become bottom tier and top tier, it should be between mid tier (those that are willing to put the time and effort into this game) and the top tier.

    The two biggest things that separate these two again have nothing to do with CP. They come down to a dynamic vs static rotation, and then it comes down to APM. APM is always going to be a barrier, unless you increase the GCD, which frankly sounds like a bad idea. They could probably go a long way to reducing the difference between static and dynamic rotation by standardizing skill durations, but again, not a CP issue.

    Rant aside, nothing they are doing here is going to shrink the power gap. Also, you cant say you plan to reduce DPS by X amount and that an 810 CP today will be as powerful as they are tomorrow, also while simultaneously moving the goal post. There is a gaping hole in that story.

    Standarizing skill durations would be a huge help. DKs for example have a very poor static rotation due to the huge variety of durations on their skills. Nightblades suffer too due to being reliant on a burst damage window with all dots being up at the time. Compare that to Cros and Wardens which have static rotations that are almost as good as their dynamic varieties, at least on a dummy/static fight.

    Broadening the availability/viability of group support buffs/debuffs/sets would also help the mid-tier. Currently the meta is rigid enough that a Warden and Templar healer are almost always a must as well as 2-3x Necros with one in EC, a Zen DK, a Sorc of some kind and then the rest are all the best dps class for the trial. By "must" I mean they're a must to achieve optimal group dps. If more people could turn up on their most comfortable/preferred class and still contribute to group dps through those buffs and sets then we'd see the middle tier group dps rise.

    Yep. If they really want to close the gap between mid and top tier DPS, the first place to start is with skill duration. Even on something like necro that you can play statically, you have skills at 3, 10, 12, and 16 seconds. You can absolutely make a static rotation work on a dummy for about the same net DPS result, but it will fall apart faster in actual content vs a well played dynamic rotation. Going from a static to a dynamic rotation is the biggest leap you have to make as a DPS, if monster numbers in actual content are your goal.

    Now I am not advocating for all skills to have the same duration. That would be boring. Skills like blastbones give a unique flavor to a rotation, which I like. But they could definitely attempt to standardize some of the longer skills, and attempt to keep them as multiples of one another. Just as an example. If you reduced some skills from 12 to 10, and increased others from the 16 to 20 range, you would see fare less drop off in the typical 2-line static 20 second rotation when you get into actual combat.

    Why the hell they want to close the gap between mid and top tier DPS? what is the point of this? Who will be happy? I never saw someone looking to a high end player and say "burn the monster!". So for whom they are trying to close the gap? Then what is the point of playing the damn game?
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  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Update to my previously fluid gameplay:

    My green tree slottables are as follows:
    Professional Upkeep
    Steed's Blessing
    Master Gatherer
    Plentiful Harvest
    Meticulous Dissasembly
    Friends in Low Places
    Infamous

    I've told ZOS:
    Right now, my Silencer can log into Belkarth, do her writs, repair her armor, sell off junk to vendors, pick a few pockets, murder a few folks, fence the loot, and then head out for her morning farming loop for materials and chests without ever having to slot or unslot anything. That's fluid gameplay. I didn't ever have to stop and think about my CP. I just played the game!

    Let's see how it goes...

    I start with Steed's Blessing, Master Gatherer, Plentiful Harvest, and Meticulous Dissasembly. This works well for writs and deconstructing junk jewelry, after a brief panic when I nearly crafted 110 necklaces instead of 2. :lol: I Harvest a few nodes along the way, so its a good thing I've got my harvesting passives on.

    Armor repair: swap Meticulous Dissasembly for Professional Upkeep

    Now, for the Justice System.
    I swap Professional Upkeep for Friends in Low Places. Eventually, I'll use Cutpurse's Art instead, when I unlock it. I pickpocket a few folks and head for the Fence.

    Fencing: I swap Friends In Low Places for Infamous. Awkwardly, the fenced value of my white-qualityitems seems to be the same with and without Infamous? Okay, I've got to go pick, pick, stab a few more NPCs to check with green quality items. And it's after I pick, pick, stab 2 NPCs that I realize that I've completely forgotten to equip Friends in Low Places again and am instead using the useless Infamous. :lol: Well played ZOS!

    Also, is anyone else having issues with Infamous not working alongside the Haggling Passives from Thieves Guild? Because neither the value of my goods to be fenced nor laundered goods was increased. Am I missing something here?

    Farming: swap out Infamous in favor of Treasure Hunter and I'm all good to go on a farming run with a final set of: Steed's Blessing, Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, and Treasure Hunter.


    Feedback time.

    Cooldown feedback: I wasn't seeing it when I manually swapped my slottables. Which is a good thing!

    Menu Management: I'm on PC and this sucks. Every time I swap a single slottable, I have to:
    1. Hit the "=" sign to go to the Champion menu
    2. Click on the Thief Craft tree
    3. Mouse over the stars until I find the one I want (was it too hard to label them, seriously?)
    4. Click and drag that star up to the Champion Bar
    5. Either Esc or Alt twice to back out of the Champion menu
    6. Finally get one with my next activity.

    I did this 5-step process at least four times in the course of what used to be my fluid morning gameplay just to use the Slottables that presumably you expect I should want to use. I'll maybe get a little faster as time goes on, but the menus only move so faster when doing this manually.

    Devs, that's a pain in the rear. I really, really hope that it makes a significant improvement on the performance side, because it's a significant decrease in quality of life for me with a mouse and keyboard.


    Bottom line: No, I can't have my usual fluid gameplay AND use your new CP slottables. Either I have to "set and forget" my four farming ones or I have to stop what I'm doing, dive into the Champion menu, and swap my slottable before doing what I want with the slottable that benefits it.

    Devs, was this what you intended to happen?
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  • Giraffon
    Giraffon
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    They need to ditch the "slotted" concept completely. I like the new tree, but the concept of assigning some of the items to a bar in order to get the benefit is just infuriating busy work.
    Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!
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  • Lady_Galadhiel
    Lady_Galadhiel
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    Agalloch wrote: »
    Too bad they didn't scaled our xp and cp 1.0 ranks to 2.0

    Agreed.
    Experience is experience no matter when we grinded for it,if before CP 2.0 release or after.
    I welcome changes but this new cp system feels so unrewarding compared to the old one.
    Started to grind CP today in a public dungeon and after 30 minutes I got bored,I just don't see myself grinding levels just to reach such a high number like 1800.I am currently almost CP1080 and feeling like I would be barly 400.

    Oh well,time to get back to housing and leaving dungeons & trials aside for now.
    Only wish ZOS costumer service would sell old homes again as the houses I am waiting for haven't been back in crown store since I started playing the game.
    Total ESO playtime: 8325 hours
    ESO plus status: Cancelled
    ESO currently uninstalled.
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  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    so basically they sharpened the branch players were using into a spear, but left players not knowing how to swing. All while players that had swords and knew to swing them, got their swords dulled
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
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  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    UrbWzrd wrote: »
    Runefang wrote: »
    This is not an encouraging thread. They have been trying to decrease the power gap between good players and bad players for years, and they fail to understand the simple concept that if you lower the ceiling to the floor, you are essentially collapsing the house. This method is never going to work. You need to start from the ground up, and CP is not the way to do it.

    There are really several tiers to DPS progression, and almost none of it has a thing to do with CP. Sure more CP means more DPS, but that misses the issue.

    In the beginning, its about a basic build gear setup, and learning the basics of how combat functions. 75% of the DPS in group finder are at this stage, and failing. They dont understand how damage scales, they dont understand global cooldowns or basic weaving, they dont even understand the difference between DOTs and spammables, let along the complexity of how buffs/debuffs. The only thing that is going to fix this is better tutorials.

    Next you actually get into some sort of damage rotation. These people are trying to practice on dummies and are at the beginning of learning to DPS. This is where a skill gap (the ability to press buttons) comes into play. First they must master a light weave, then the must master a basic static rotation. This gap is not going to be closed by changes to the CP system. It is closed by practice on a target dummy, which some people will NEVER do. Combat is complex enough in this game that if you dont practice, you wont master it. Some people wont, so frankly, worrying about them in the power gap conversation is a waste of time.

    If you want to focus on a power gap, the one to focus on is not become bottom tier and top tier, it should be between mid tier (those that are willing to put the time and effort into this game) and the top tier.

    The two biggest things that separate these two again have nothing to do with CP. They come down to a dynamic vs static rotation, and then it comes down to APM. APM is always going to be a barrier, unless you increase the GCD, which frankly sounds like a bad idea. They could probably go a long way to reducing the difference between static and dynamic rotation by standardizing skill durations, but again, not a CP issue.

    Rant aside, nothing they are doing here is going to shrink the power gap. Also, you cant say you plan to reduce DPS by X amount and that an 810 CP today will be as powerful as they are tomorrow, also while simultaneously moving the goal post. There is a gaping hole in that story.

    Standarizing skill durations would be a huge help. DKs for example have a very poor static rotation due to the huge variety of durations on their skills. Nightblades suffer too due to being reliant on a burst damage window with all dots being up at the time. Compare that to Cros and Wardens which have static rotations that are almost as good as their dynamic varieties, at least on a dummy/static fight.

    Broadening the availability/viability of group support buffs/debuffs/sets would also help the mid-tier. Currently the meta is rigid enough that a Warden and Templar healer are almost always a must as well as 2-3x Necros with one in EC, a Zen DK, a Sorc of some kind and then the rest are all the best dps class for the trial. By "must" I mean they're a must to achieve optimal group dps. If more people could turn up on their most comfortable/preferred class and still contribute to group dps through those buffs and sets then we'd see the middle tier group dps rise.

    Yep. If they really want to close the gap between mid and top tier DPS, the first place to start is with skill duration. Even on something like necro that you can play statically, you have skills at 3, 10, 12, and 16 seconds. You can absolutely make a static rotation work on a dummy for about the same net DPS result, but it will fall apart faster in actual content vs a well played dynamic rotation. Going from a static to a dynamic rotation is the biggest leap you have to make as a DPS, if monster numbers in actual content are your goal.

    Now I am not advocating for all skills to have the same duration. That would be boring. Skills like blastbones give a unique flavor to a rotation, which I like. But they could definitely attempt to standardize some of the longer skills, and attempt to keep them as multiples of one another. Just as an example. If you reduced some skills from 12 to 10, and increased others from the 16 to 20 range, you would see fare less drop off in the typical 2-line static 20 second rotation when you get into actual combat.

    Why the hell they want to close the gap between mid and top tier DPS? what is the point of this? Who will be happy? I never saw someone looking to a high end player and say "burn the monster!". So for whom they are trying to close the gap? Then what is the point of playing the damn game?

    @UrbWzrd
    I think you missed my point. Nothing they do with CP is going to significantly close the gap between the bottom and the top. That is because those at the very bottom aren't anywhere close to a meta build or playstyle, which is what ZOS seems to balance around (as they should for damage). Sure someone like Liko or Skinny can remove CP and pull much better numbers than they could a week ago, but that misses the issue IMO.

    At that level, its not a CP, its a L2P issue. They have no rotation, mix matched gear, etc. These are the people you see with a bow on one bar and a S+B on the other, spamming light attacks from the corner for DPS. All the CP changes in the world arent going to bring them up in a meaningful way. A lot of players will never leave this group because it's a conscious decision you have to make, which again, has NOTHING to do with CP.

    What I am calling a mid tier player is someone who has taken the next step. They have learned the fundamentals of combat. They have put together a build that is at least in the neighborhood of META. They are working on playing a proper rotation. The main difference between these players and those at the top, again, is not CP, its skill. They simply don't press buttons like those at the top. Most will get better with practice, but everyone is going to have their upper limit they run into, and it's not the same for everyone. If you want to reduce that gap, skill duration would be a good place to start. Notice I am not saying eliminate the gap, I am saying reduce the gap.

    TLDR, the CP system misses the issue of player skill as the biggest divide between players. It doesnt solve the issue they say they are trying to address. It certainly closes the gap on paper, as CP is less of a factor in damage on paper, but I think it misses the bigger issue.



    Sergykid wrote: »
    so basically they sharpened the branch players were using into a spear, but left players not knowing how to swing. All while players that had swords and knew to swing them, got their swords dulled

    Yep, pretty much that.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 17, 2021 4:48PM
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