What an MMO is
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Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »
[Quoted post was removed]
[snip] But I digress, MMO has changed evolved and all of us old gamers have a nice little home here in ESO for which I am grateful, I can still play and interact with people younger than myself which helps me keep young and have a nice time playing solo too. I think we can all agree in todays game worlds catering to all styles is a win for any company. Especially if you can bring it all together. This has been a great thread, of thoughts and ideas and perspectives. Options are GOOD.
[Edited to remove Off Topic content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 30, 2021 5:05PM3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »Brenticus12 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Heaven forbid people fight for the scraps. I swear people won't be happy until they hand out Godslayer mounts to players solo clearing vSS with 5k dps.
I've not seen a single person say there should be "Godslayer" rewards for solo content. People who want to play solo dungeons and trials want to do so for the experience, not the loot. If they want the best loot they will run vet content. You don't have to choose to play just one or the other.
It comes eventually lmao. I recall back when vMoL was difficult there were plenty of people complaining about having to do group content in order to get the skin. There was someone asking for the content to be nerfed because progging with a group was too hard for them. This wasn't a one off either because there were multiple people that agreed with him at the time (And plenty of arguing in those threads).
There were also arguments over the fact that you could only get the silver skin from vAS by doing +2.
[snip]
[Edited to Remove Rude/Insulting comment]
yup always haooens... they claim they don't care if they do not get rewards but then complain afterwards because what's the point if they cannot event get the shiny reward....
I think it’s naive to propose a new game mode and to not include a reward for doing it because that runs contrary to how the game and MMO’s are designed. Everything is reward centered.
While many people are earnest that they just find many of the main story bosses incredibly disappointing - that doesn’t change the fact that all gameplay content is designed with reward & incentive and there’s zero reason that this one hypothetical idea would be any different.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it’s naive to propose a new game mode and to not include a reward for doing it because that runs contrary to how the game and MMO’s are designed. Everything is reward centered.
If solo dungeons and trials were introduced, of course there would be rewards. But the rewards would be scaled down to the lower difficulty of the solo content. They wouldn't be even close in quality to the veteran rewards.
Personally I just like accomplishing things. I don't care about mounts or pets, but an achievement would be nice, mostly to help me remember which character finished which content.PCNA1 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove some posts for being off topic. We understand that topics can meander and have tangents but its important not to get distracted by these tangents. In order for the thread to remain open it must remain on topic.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a happy medium here and people who argue vehemently for both sides can miss it.
Solo players in ESO (or any MMOS) add value to the community. They make it more alive. Even if they never group up with anyone, if they compete for a node or are present in a delve, they are part of everyone's experience.
Group players are also important to the community. Anyone with a guild tag, anyone talking in zone chat, those folks who run up and help you take down a world boss... ESO would be extremely empty without them.
Both kinds of players buy content and/or subscriptions, allowing all of us to have the game we enjoy.
Some people are solo only and some people are group only. However some people (likely many) are BOTH. They switch between types of play based on a wide variety of factors... are their friends logged in? Are they in a mood to interact with others? Are they chasing an achievement or content that lends itself towards one kind of play over the other? And so on.
I believe that ESO does a very good job providing content for all these scenarios most of the time. I also believe that the things we need to watch out for are new features that could tip the scales for the "BOTH" style of players to become solo only. Features that make it so solo players willing to dip their toes into group activity no longer have a reason to consider doing so.
Because if we don't have a balance and a feeder system for newer players to try grouping in content, it won't be long before we have a mostly dead game.
Also, while I think solo and group play should both be welcome in an MMO, there needs to be some kind of logical recognition that there is no point in maintaining megaservers or providing a way for players to interact with each other in the game world if no one is interested in doing so. Which again = dead game.
People who are only solo or only group: respect the fact that we need both playstyles and be understanding that some features which may be nice for you could ruin the other style of play and ultimately all of our ESO gaming experiences. Don't stand on an "MMO definition soapbox" to defend your point... instead think about whether what you're requesting would result in people who play BOTH playstyles to change their habits... especially if it could cause them to reduce grouping. Because even if you'd never, ever ever play another way, there are people in your community - who contribute to making it vibrant - who might.
Signed,
A solo & group player who would not have looked twice at this game if it didn't have the ability for me to play with friends, even though now sometimes I'll go it alone.6 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Don't stand on an "MMO definition soapbox" to defend your point... instead think about whether what you're requesting would result in people who play BOTH playstyles to change their habits... especially if it could cause them to reduce grouping. Because even if you'd never, ever ever play another way, there are people in your community - who contribute to making it vibrant - who might.
I will "stand on an "MMO definition soapbox" to defend the correct definition of the term. Too many players erroneously think that playing an MMO means you should be playing with others. As I've explained numerous times, that is not what it's about.
Also, I'm not trying to influence anyone to change their playstyle. I'm telling others who group up for everything to stop pushing their playstyle on those of us who don't.
As many have pointed out, having solo content will not stop those who enjoy veteran content from still participating in it. And we do contribute to making the game vibrant as you yourself earlier stated in this same post.Solo players in ESO (or any MMOS) add value to the community. They make it more alive. Even if they never group up with anyone, if they compete for a node or are present in a delve, they are part of everyone's experience.PCNA5 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In the end it is a commercial game - having both, solo play and group play enhances revenues and that is what it is all about. Alienating one or the other group does the game no good, because if revenue isn't as expected, the game might just shut down for good, because the effort put into it is eventually be more rewarding in another place and another game.
So let's keep it as it is - solo play and group play as complementary ways to play the game. A solo player has to think differently from a group player and gear up in a totally different way. I have no healer to support me, and damage which I don't do is not done, and if I cannot sustain myself, I will be killed - this is not compatible with group play and I don't want to gear up for group play and make me inefficient in solo play for it. As a solo player I am neither DD, healer or tank - I am all in one, good in nothing of those. But that is what is interesting with solo play - I don't need anyone, and that is my goal in the game.Edited by Lysette on January 31, 2021 1:36AM4 -
Aertew✭✭✭✭Cause and effect...
The complaining you are refering to is just a reply to those people, who demand the game to be tweaked so it fits their expectations and play style, i.e. "I don't want to group, give us solo versions of trials!!!"
This is when the MMO mantra kicks in...and rightly so.
Not really rightly so, no.
"I don't want to group up, give us solo versions of trials!"
- is not -
"I don't want to group up, get rid of all the group versions of trials and make them solo only!"
Bruh...
You guys already get...
Main quests, side quests, public dungeons, delves. World bosses, expansion stories, DLC zones.
Can't group players get some crumbs?1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You guys already get...
Main quests, side quests, public dungeons, delves. World bosses, expansion stories, DLC zones.
Can't group players get some crumbs?
And group guys also get main quests, side quests, public dungeons, delves, world bosses, expansion stories, dlc zones...
plus normal and vet dungeons and trials, better rewards, and achievements that solo players don't.
Can't solo players enjoy this content, too?Edited by SilverBride on January 31, 2021 4:33AMPCNA7 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »I said it before, but it didn't catch.
If all content in the game was designed to accessible to solo players, then why are they playing an online game to begin with? If they do not want to group with people, then why not just play a single player offline game?
My reasons:
1. There are only so many single-player games that have a similar vibe as MMOs (for example, I don't play shooter games, which often are single player). The games I've found that I enjoy are few and far between.
2. They don't get updated with new content as often as MMOs do, if at all. They don't have events. There are only so many times you can play single-player games before the content gets stale.
3. I LIKE seeing other people running around and making the game feel alive. Single-player games have NPCs that all do the same things and say the same things over and over. It's fine the first time through but after a while, bleh.
I would second the points here.
I enjoy being in a shared world even if I do not group with other players much.PC
PS4/PS53 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Legit 95% of the entire game is casual/solo focused
Heaven forbid people fight for the scraps. I swear people won't be happy until they hand out Godslayer mounts to players solo clearing vSS with 5k dps.
Right!!! Some of these forum posts act like endgame players are monsters for investing time to get better and wanting more content for your skill level in a game you paid money for.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What I saidI think it’s naïve to propose a new game mode and to not include a reward for doing it because that runs contrary to how the game and MMO’s are designed. Everything is reward centered.
Your ReplySilverBride wrote: »If solo dungeons and trials were introduced, of course there would be rewards. But the rewards would be scaled down to the lower difficulty of the solo content. They wouldn't be even close in quality to the veteran rewards.
Personally I just like accomplishing things. I don't care about mounts or pets, but an achievement would be nice, mostly to help me remember which character finished which content.
I said that point about naivety in reply to the criticism of those who proposed rewards for harder difficulties.
All too often they are accused of all just having some underhanded motivation for more loot as a way to dismiss their legitimate issue that Main Story Bosses are only designed for one demographic which leads to disappointing and unmemorable experiences that completely undercut the story for many of us.
like I said it would not make sense to propose a harder game mode with no reward because that goes against how the game is designed. Which is why all too often when some say it shouldn't have achievements or rewards - the reasonable response was, "That doesn't make any sense."
imo ZOS has made it clear with the new companion feature that solo dungeons and trials won't be a thing - because the game is designed to lead you to that content and to participate with other players.
However, if they did do something for a "Solo mode" for Dungeons then I would support it ONLY if Main Story Bosses got an overhaul and were treated like Dungeons and Trials. You get a solo and a hard/group mode.
Edited by Iccotak on January 31, 2021 10:52AM0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭If you look at the major updates schedule, you can see that the vast majority of what is released is targeted to solo/casual players.
Each year we get 4 dungeons (30 minutes to an hour of content each), a trial (one to two hours of content), a major overland zone (roughly twenty to one hundred hours of content), a minor overland zone (fifteen to fifty hours of content), and maybe an arena (an hour of content). In love elder scrolls lore and play all finish all the quest, but we all know overland is not designed for veteran players.
It is almost a slap in the face, when you have spent days learning your class and role, weeks collecting good gear, months coordinating guild raids, and years keeping up with this game's ever changing meta; only to be told that not only does more content need to be focus of the casual player base, but the few crumbs thrown your way should be change to accommodate them also.
That being said, I can understand that some are intimated with the aspect of dungeons, trials, and partying with people you don't know; I once was. Also as someone that has a odd work schedule, I know it can be difficult to organize with friends. Solo play has a place in this game, but solo, or should I say solo causal content should not be the as much of a focus as it seems to be.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »If you look at the major updates schedule, you can see that the vast majority of what is released is targeted to solo/casual players.
Each year we get 4 dungeons (30 minutes to an hour of content each), a trial (one to two hours of content), a major overland zone (roughly twenty to one hundred hours of content), a minor overland zone (fifteen to fifty hours of content), and maybe an arena (an hour of content). In love elder scrolls lore and play all finish all the quest, but we all know overland is not designed for veteran players.
It is almost a slap in the face, when you have spent days learning your class and role, weeks collecting good gear, months coordinating guild raids, and years keeping up with this game's ever changing meta; only to be told that not only does more content need to be focus of the casual player base, but the few crumbs thrown your way should be change to accommodate them also.
That being said, I can understand that some are intimated with the aspect of dungeons, trials, and partying with people you don't know; I once was. Also as someone that has a odd work schedule, I know it can be difficult to organize with friends. Solo play has a place in this game, but solo, or should I say solo causal content should not be the as much of a focus as it seems to be.
That last paragraph is exactly part of why ZOS added companions
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559462/companions-a-breakdown-of-the-new-feature-by-rich-lambert/p1Lambert says the idea behind Companions is to allow solo players and small groups to take on dungeons without worrying about becoming overwhelmed. As a solo player myself, I bluntly asked Lambert what took so long for something like that to be added.
"I think we've learned a lot over the years. And one of the main, recurring themes that we've heard from players, especially our more hardcore Elder Scrolls people, is people are scary. And there's some content that they aren't necessarily comfortable within a large group, but they would do with a couple of close, trusted friends. And so the beauty of this system and one of my hopes is, you know, you and a buddy could go and do four-player dungeons because you have two companions to help you out."
Another benefit to the upcoming Companion system, Lambert hopes, is that it'll give folks the confidence to take on tougher dungeons, thereby getting the chance to mingle and engage more with the ESO community.
"It will help players, A: develop stronger social ties in-game with their companions, but also, B: help them kind-of edge a little bit more into some of the group content and meeting other players potentially, which is really exciting to me, because that's where the magic of MMO happens, you know, meeting other people and talking with them and developing those really close social ties."
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »If you look at the major updates schedule, you can see that the vast majority of what is released is targeted to solo/casual players.
Each year we get 4 dungeons (30 minutes to an hour of content each), a trial (one to two hours of content), a major overland zone (roughly twenty to one hundred hours of content), a minor overland zone (fifteen to fifty hours of content), and maybe an arena (an hour of content). In love elder scrolls lore and play all finish all the quest, but we all know overland is not designed for veteran players.
It is almost a slap in the face, when you have spent days learning your class and role, weeks collecting good gear, months coordinating guild raids, and years keeping up with this game's ever changing meta; only to be told that not only does more content need to be focus of the casual player base, but the few crumbs thrown your way should be change to accommodate them also.
That being said, I can understand that some are intimated with the aspect of dungeons, trials, and partying with people you don't know; I once was. Also as someone that has a odd work schedule, I know it can be difficult to organize with friends. Solo play has a place in this game, but solo, or should I say solo causal content should not be the as much of a focus as it seems to be.
That last paragraph is exactly part of why ZOS added companions
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559462/companions-a-breakdown-of-the-new-feature-by-rich-lambert/p1Lambert says the idea behind Companions is to allow solo players and small groups to take on dungeons without worrying about becoming overwhelmed. As a solo player myself, I bluntly asked Lambert what took so long for something like that to be added.
"I think we've learned a lot over the years. And one of the main, recurring themes that we've heard from players, especially our more hardcore Elder Scrolls people, is people are scary. And there's some content that they aren't necessarily comfortable within a large group, but they would do with a couple of close, trusted friends. And so the beauty of this system and one of my hopes is, you know, you and a buddy could go and do four-player dungeons because you have two companions to help you out."
Another benefit to the upcoming Companion system, Lambert hopes, is that it'll give folks the confidence to take on tougher dungeons, thereby getting the chance to mingle and engage more with the ESO community.
"It will help players, A: develop stronger social ties in-game with their companions, but also, B: help them kind-of edge a little bit more into some of the group content and meeting other players potentially, which is really exciting to me, because that's where the magic of MMO happens, you know, meeting other people and talking with them and developing those really close social ties."
I have some hopes for the companion system, I think it is a good idea of if implented in a way that doesn't drive companions farming, monetization. If nothing else I'll final get that body I need to stand on the plate when I solo v.direfrost.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »If you look at the major updates schedule, you can see that the vast majority of what is released is targeted to solo/casual players.
Each year we get 4 dungeons (30 minutes to an hour of content each), a trial (one to two hours of content), a major overland zone (roughly twenty to one hundred hours of content), a minor overland zone (fifteen to fifty hours of content), and maybe an arena (an hour of content). In love elder scrolls lore and play all finish all the quest, but we all know overland is not designed for veteran players.
It is almost a slap in the face, when you have spent days learning your class and role, weeks collecting good gear, months coordinating guild raids, and years keeping up with this game's ever changing meta; only to be told that not only does more content need to be focus of the casual player base, but the few crumbs thrown your way should be change to accommodate them also.
That being said, I can understand that some are intimated with the aspect of dungeons, trials, and partying with people you don't know; I once was. Also as someone that has a odd work schedule, I know it can be difficult to organize with friends. Solo play has a place in this game, but solo, or should I say solo causal content should not be the as much of a focus as it seems to be.
Yeah, because we all know vet players don't do stories, right? [snip] Because when I look at the release schedule, I see content that is released for the entire game. You have chosen to arbitrarily assign the content as targeted for specific classes of players, but that's not precisely true, is it? What is true is that there is content that artificially locks players out. This isn't done by ZOS though, it's done by players with a "you must be this tall to ride this ride" mentality.
To be fair, Vet content is, indeed, tailored to that mentality. There's a reason for that, it provides some challenge to the players that are in fact looking for it. The myth here being, of course, that if someone else can run that content, "it's a slap in the face to the vets". My take is that, if one wants to run a dungeon, one should have a group. If they want to run a "flower sniffer" variant, that's cool too, but it shouldn't be tailored to a SP perspective. Maybe a version that's somewhere between what overland content is and Normal. In DDO, it was called Casual. The bright side to this is that dungeons are already tailored for different difficulties, and can readily be adjusted, unlike overland, which is made to be a vehicle for the story, a way to progress from Point A to Point B.
As for what's intimidating, yep, some people do have issues with social anxiety. However, the biggest barrier to group content in MMOs isn't limited to that. There's also the players. Players that will go on a tangent in a dungeon similar to the strike out section above, acting like a player that hasn't put that time in, or doesn't know the content, doesn't have any business in their random queue...
[Edited to remove Rude Comments]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 31, 2021 2:33PM2 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭While I understand many think the magic in mmos is grouping. After playing these games for many years my own personal experience is mostly with groups or guilds that are really not about the whole group. I have seen it time and time again bad decisions by the guild herarchy about who gets a drop. Scheduling raids or dungeon runs that only benefit one or two people. Or when things go bad to blame the inexperienced players even when it's not their fault. Or blame the healer, so maybe there are those magical moments sometimes but mostly they are not. So solo I can get mad at myself when I screw up and not ruin anyone elses day.
At the end of the day forceing people to group up to experience content will lose the game players period. As I said in all my posts having Options is a good thing. Companions are a good thing. But if you then tweak things to be harder you will find that solo players will just go back to content they can do solo or maybe move on to the next game that doesn't try to force them into a certain type of game play.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Some of these forum posts act like endgame players are monsters for investing time to get better and wanting more content for your skill level in a game you paid money for.
That's not the point at all. No one here has said there shouldn't be challenging content for those who enjoy that. And better rewards for doing said content. Is there enough challenging content for those players? Some say no. Should more challenging content be added? Sure. But that is another topic for another thread.
But a lot of end game players claim that 95% of the game is tailored for solo players. It's not. It's tailored for everyone. End game players have to level, too. End game players may also enjoy the storyline, or roleplaying, or crafting or trading goods. Everyone benefits from the so called solo content.
There is no content that is specifically tailored for just the solo player. None. Why is it wrong that we'd like solo dungeons and trials, with the rewards scaled down for the lesser difficulty, so we can enjoy that, too?
End game players come to these forums and cry out for veteran overland content, which would literally make the entire game end game content. But if solo players ask for solo dungeons and trials we are told we are being selfish and we already get everything and we're teachers pet and it's just not fair.
What's wrong with this picture?Edited by SilverBride on January 31, 2021 5:06PMPCNA3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is no content that is specifically tailored for just the solo player. None. Why is it wrong that we'd like solo dungeons and trials, with the rewards scaled down for the lesser difficulty, so we can enjoy that, too?
tbf there are a couple solo arenas, took a while to release the second one though.0 -
erio✭✭✭✭✭Its a game about multiplayer. They shouldnt be spending time making the game for solo peopleEdited by erio on January 31, 2021 5:44PM0
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is no content that is specifically tailored for just the solo player. None. Why is it wrong that we'd like solo dungeons and trials, with the rewards scaled down for the lesser difficulty, so we can enjoy that, too?
tbf there are a couple solo arenas, took a while to release the second one though.
I don't really like the arenas but that's just me. But the point is, end game players can do all the content, including solo arenas. Solo players have nothing but the 2 arenas you just mentioned, compared to how many dungeons and trials?
Are these arenas repeatable? I've never completed one yet to find out. Either way, that is not an acceptable alternative for solo dungeons and trials.Edited by SilverBride on January 31, 2021 5:51PMPCNA0 -
Nowa133✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »There is no content that is specifically tailored for just the solo player. None. Why is it wrong that we'd like solo dungeons and trials, with the rewards scaled down for the lesser difficulty, so we can enjoy that, too?
tbf there are a couple solo arenas, took a while to release the second one though.
I don't really like the arenas but that's just me. But the point is, end game players can do all the content, including solo arenas. Solo players have nothing but the 2 arenas you just mentioned, compared to how many dungeons and trials?
Are these arenas repeatable? I've never completed one yet to find out. Either way, that is not an acceptable alternative for solo dungeons and trials.
Yes, they're. I would accept the creation of solo (story mode) dungeons, if they did just like ffxiv does, by reducing damage of party members (companions and player as well), which leads to increase in time to finish it. (2 times or 3 times more) than with human players. Well, the ai do the mechanics flawlessly. (at least that) There, we can do shadowbringers dungeons in 35-40 minutes, which with human players takes 15 to 20 minutes.Edited by Nowa133 on January 31, 2021 6:24PM0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would accept the creation of solo (story mode) dungeons, if they did just like ffxiv does, by reducing damage of party members (companions and player as well), which leads to increase in time to finish it.
Solo dungeons should take the same time as any other dungeon. There is absolutely no reason to make them take longer. Nor should player damage be reduced. They would already be scaled for the average player.
What you suggest just sounds like punishment.PCNA1 -
erio✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
eso is an mmoRPG.
MMORPG
noun
noun: MMORPG; plural noun: MMORPGs
an online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously
straight from google.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
eso is an mmoRPG.
MMORPG
noun
noun: MMORPG; plural noun: MMORPGs
an online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously
straight from google.
And? Simultaneously means at the same time, not together.Edited by SilverBride on January 31, 2021 6:40PMPCNA4 -
Nowa133✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I would accept the creation of solo (story mode) dungeons, if they did just like ffxiv does, by reducing damage of party members (companions and player as well), which leads to increase in time to finish it.
Solo dungeons should take the same time as any other dungeon. There is absolutely no reason to make them take longer. Nor should player damage be reduced. They would already be scaled for the average player.
What you suggest just sounds like punishment.
That was done there because square didn't want ppl to do dungeons preferebly with ai, but with players, since they earn the same rewards. (and the ai does mechanics flawlessly) Nobody wants to shorten that scarce supply of healers and tank, does it not? Same could happen here.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I would accept the creation of solo (story mode) dungeons, if they did just like ffxiv does, by reducing damage of party members (companions and player as well), which leads to increase in time to finish it.
Solo dungeons should take the same time as any other dungeon. There is absolutely no reason to make them take longer. Nor should player damage be reduced. They would already be scaled for the average player.
What you suggest just sounds like punishment.
That was done there because square didn't want ppl to do dungeons preferebly with ai, but with players, since they earn the same rewards. (and the ai does mechanics flawlessly) Nobody wants to shorten that scarce supply of healers and tank, does it not? Same could happen here.
They would not give the same rewards. The rewards would scale down to the lower difficulty.PCNA2