PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

skulltape

This new system is terrible. At least preload everyone's current CP1.0 into CP2.0 and adjust everyone's CP level to the new system. The way it looks now, it's going to take so much grinding (leveling 10+ characters) just to get to end game content, that it won't be fun ---- and definitely not worth putting money into every month.

TKOS7

The forced progression thing isn't as bad as it seems - you only need to get to the first level of a star to unlock the ones it leads to. Usually this is only 10 CP

NagualV

PVP perspective - I really like the new system overall. I agree with what many have already said about the point at which horizontal progression begins may be a bit too high.

As a cp865 player, it was immediately evident to me how many of the passives were unavailable to me, compared to someone of 1200, 1700, etc who would be able to unlock them. They arent insignificant, either, in my opinion.

Even that doesnt bother me as long as the ability to gain exp is adjusted to be reasonable.......I'm all for hitting the gym for training(psijic skill line/antiquities), its essential in any sport, but eventually I want to get back on the field....

karekiz

The slot star vs passive system can be confusing to go through. The colors are too similar. Make them directly different icons.

Zyva

A.: It would be very nice if the 'stars' visually looked a lot more obvious. many of them really blend into the background. It would be really, really nice if the 'passive/slottable' stars were a different color so make them more obvious that they were different as well.

B: Please adjust the rate we gain CP. If I go in at CP 1600, which took my literally , according to steam, 8k hours of gameplay, and according to the stream, cp2.0 the exp rate will still be the same cp1200plus going forward, then it will take an extremely long time for me to reach 3600. I dont mind grinding another 1k hours even, but if its going to be 3kplus to be relevant dps wise that's ridiculous. the math coming out now is in the cp2k range to reach min/max potential for top-end dps, which is what people will want to push for trifecta content. I know this is probably 1% of people who play eso. (whines into the ether)

C: Also... will the corresponding achievements for the champion system be updated for this <.< and perhaps more be added? Achievements for reaching CP 500/ 1k/2k etc? Because that would be awessommmeee and maybe even a TITLE I'm asking the important questions here. Point Master. Star Studded. ...of The No Life (achieved at cp 3600)

Overall I do like the concept of the new system. It's week one so im curious to see what comes of it and what goes live.

Integral1900

I don’t get why we have to dump points into random junk to get to the ones we want

There is a health boost locked behind a 1% movement bonus! Seriously!?

Who in their right mind would dump 100 points just to get a small boost in woodworking!?

Master gather locked behind skills related to being a thieving murdering villain, so basically we are throwing the whole role-play idea right out of the window are we! My heroic Templar is going to have to behave in exactly the same way as my hard drinking night blade is she!?

The whole unlocked path idea is going to get irritating very quickly! 🤬

EntropicLynx

This may have been said already, but it's difficult to fully test the new CP system when even the "max level" newly created characters don't get max CP but instead have whatever account CP you have unlocked on Live at the time that characters were transferred over to the PTS.

Additionally, the exp grind to gain additional CP is *APPALLING*. You need to give more than 1:1 conversion from the old system to the new system, and you need to make gaining CP a *LOT* faster under the new system. Right now, to grind from my 834 CP to the full 3600CP on the new system (assuming no changes to conversion rates and CP exp gains) would take me, as a semi-casual player, at least 2-3 *YEARS* of additional play spent doing nothing but boring AF grind. I also would suggest making it so that Dungeons and Trials give a lot more EXP so that the most efficient way to gain end-game exp and CP is to actually do end-game content.

hregrin

There must be something that doesn't work as intended.

I went for the following repartition on a fresh template character on PTS
- Untamed agression : 50
- Precision : 10
- Wrathful strikes : 50
- Piercing : 50
- Battle mastery : 80
- Mighty : 30

Basically went for the most weapon damage accessible with 810 CP, which is a 150 straight, plus 265 to select attacks (read : most of the attacks I use).

DPS test on iron atronach gives 43672,5 DPS (almost half of what I have on live with worst gear).

Then I removed all blue CP to see where that would land me and what was the progression rate. Same stuff, same rotation, got 40013 DPS.

270 CP in the blue tree gives me a 3k-ish increase in DPS. Please, please tell me that something isn't working as it should. The system going live as is will make endgame PvE unreachable. Let me remind you that to clear vSS non HM, the three people going through the portal *must* dish out 40k self-buffed each. Anything lower than that and the trial is impossible to clear. And in the current state of things the people able to do it will be few and far between.

katorga

hregrin wrote: »

DPS test on iron atronach gives 43672,5 DPS (almost half of what I have on live with worst gear).

Then I removed all blue CP to see where that would land me and what was the progression rate. Same stuff, same rotation, got 40013 DPS.

270 CP in the blue tree gives me a 3k-ish increase in DPS. Please, please tell me that something isn't working as it should. The system going live as is will make endgame PvE unreachable. Let me remind you that to clear vSS non HM, the three people going through the portal *must* dish out 40k self-buffed each. Anything lower than that and the trial is impossible to clear. And in the current state of things the people able to do it will be few and far between.

If the DPS check is 40K (or whatever), and you have 80k on live, then ZOS can gut dps by half and still say everything is hunky dory and you are functionally the same as CP1.0. They can basically nerf dps to just above whatever the highest dps check is and say its all good.

Cireous

So 2 of my favorite stars in the Craft constellation are:

• Homemaker (10% chance to find a second furnishing plan whenever you find a furnishing plan in the world)
• Cutpurses's Art (Increases the chance to get higher-quality loot when pickpocketing)

But I feel Homemaker could really use a boost to at least about 30%. 10% is extremely low for the 75 CP cost and location on the tree and just underwhelming low in general. I would want to take this star while thieving (it better work while thieving), but it's way over on the other side of the constellation, far away from the other thieving stuff I would be taking along with it (which further increases the CP cost of obtaining it).

And with Cutpurse's Art, I just want to know what the increased chance for higher quality loot when pickpocketing is. What percentage chance? Also, this would would be a great place for a future subconsellation, too. You could do a lot of cool stuff to change up pickpocketing. A star that gives you a chance to pickpocket 2 items instead of 1 on the first pickpocket. A star that lets you occasionally see the contents of their pockets and choose the 3 items you want most. A star that increases your chance to pick up a furnishing item or an area-related motif when pickpocketing, etc.

ealdwin

An initial thought. When I heard that the new CP System would allow for more choice in player builds, I was kind of hoping that among the options for different playstyles we would see a potential for revitalizing more DoT focused builds that rely more on maintaining DoT uptime over spammables. I haven't had too much time to play around with the new system, but was disappointed to see that the increased DoT damage from Thamaturge (think that's the name) appears to be capped at 10%, where previously one could get it up to 25%.

Now, perhaps I simply haven't found the other options for increasing DoT damage, but at least from what I've seen, some upper limits feel rather limiting in respect to the potential in creating certain off-meta builds.

If I am missing something, someone please enlighten me.

Starlock

TKOS7 wrote: »

The forced progression thing isn't as bad as it seems - you only need to get to the first level of a star to unlock the ones it leads to. Usually this is only 10 CP

Thanks for this information!

It's still disappointing, though. I want to use CP to help further define my characters and who they are. I really don't like the idea of being forced to take something that makes no sense for the character just so I can get to the things that *do* make sense for the character. Wasn't part of the point of this system to avoid a jack-of-all trades situation and have more uniqueness to how our characters do things?

Also, I share the concerns someone else mentioned earlier about how this UI will be navigable on consoles. I've dealt with forced pathing in Skyrim - and in mods that add more complexity to those trees - and navigating them on consoles was at times a real pain.

RPGrenade

I have not yet downloaded the PTS, but I just watched Hack the Minotaur's video going over the new system, and I gotta say, I am very impressed.

Special callout that I love the support to different playstyles/activities involved in the Craft constellation. I love that it covers housing, fishing, and crime. All great things to see!

SugondeseNutz

It does not appear that the intended goal of increased Horizontal progression will be met with these changes. In fact, it does the opposite- it raises the requirement to begin going to horizontal progression from vertical massively.

Horizontal progression would imply that for everything we gain something would have to be lost- IE When we already have all the non-slottable passives unlocked and are spending points on passives that require slots despite us having 4 slots filled already- Giving us flexibility to change our role.

However, using the red tree as an example, there is a requirement of a whopping 938 points in non-slottable passives alone to unlock, and then for 4 slottables this brings the effective minimum total to 1138 Red CP, or a total CP of 3414.

Effectively, there is vertical progression until CP 3414, and the horizontal progression ends at CP 3564, at which you have earned a mere single additional slottable passive to swap out freely. CP levels on PTS also

Balance concerns as to the power levels of the new CP tree vs the old one aside, I would strongly consider a massive cost reduction to ALL cp costs- potentially to 1/5th or 1/10th their current costs. As an example the red tree holds 1838 CP, meaning total CP needed of 5514 to finalize your horizontal progression.

The Blue tree is massively worse. 910 passive non-slottable points, and 1150 slottable points- This would require you to be a theoretical CP 6180 to end your horizontal progression, and horizontal progression would only start at CP 3330.

This also has the unrewarding feeling of making each individual CP gain feel entirely meaningless. When you get one, what happens? You've earned a tenth of a fifth of an upgrade in a single perk in a single tree? It's effectively a "Come back when you have earned 149 more CP"- a daunting task.

I would strongly suggest that costs of the passive and active requirements massively to the point that you want vertical progression to end would allow you to buy all passives that do not need to be slotted and 4 passives.

IE- if this is CP 900ish as the dev team has stated, then with 300 CP you would need to be able to buy 4 passives that need to be slotted and the non-slottable passives. In order for this to fit, that's approximately a 4x cost reduction on average. - Note this is completely ignoring the tree nature, which requires you to distribue points to things to be able to distribue points where you want them, effectively increasing the minimum demands of CP. Everything being 5x cheaper may be more accurate.

TLDR- unless you make everything 5 times cheaper (or more for the passives that do not need to be slotted), this is actually counterproductive to decreasing vertical progression/increasing horizontal progression.

TBois

In my view this new cp system has too much vertical progression due to the passive bonuses you do not have to slot. I came back to ESO because of its horizontal progression. I believe this is a large part of what differentiates it from other mmos.

There is already a huge baked in skill gap for new players to encounter due to experience, and the fact that the tutorials do not do much to teach the players how to play ESO effectively. This in addition to wanting to get 2000+ CP for new players to feel they are on an even playing field stat wise is daunting.

This isnt about people needing CP to compete, but it is about the feeling of fairness. When people feel they are being treated fairly you have a situation where both the winners and losers maximize their possible fun. This leads to less toxicity in the community.

The general ideas in the new cp system seem good, but in it's current implementation there are too many non slotable passives for new players to feel like they are being treated fairly going against a max cp player. They would not only have to overcome the skill gap but also the arbitrary time based stat gap.

I play ESO for its horizontal progression focusing on build craft. I'll go play wow (larger player base) or bdo (more fun combat for me) if this become a largely vertical progression game.

GrimTheReaper45

Odovacar wrote: »

Us console players reading these comments ....So for now, at least if I read things right, 1700 CP is kind of near the same as 810 is now?

It is a scary time to be a console player lol we just sit and watch

Darktrox

hregrin wrote: »

There must be something that doesn't work as intended.

I went for the following repartition on a fresh template character on PTS
- Untamed agression : 50
- Precision : 10
- Wrathful strikes : 50
- Piercing : 50
- Battle mastery : 80
- Mighty : 30

Basically went for the most weapon damage accessible with 810 CP, which is a 150 straight, plus 265 to select attacks (read : most of the attacks I use).

DPS test on iron atronach gives 43672,5 DPS (almost half of what I have on live with worst gear).

Then I removed all blue CP to see where that would land me and what was the progression rate. Same stuff, same rotation, got 40013 DPS.

270 CP in the blue tree gives me a 3k-ish increase in DPS. Please, please tell me that something isn't working as it should. The system going live as is will make endgame PvE unreachable. Let me remind you that to clear vSS non HM, the three people going through the portal *must* dish out 40k self-buffed each. Anything lower than that and the trial is impossible to clear. And in the current state of things the people able to do it will be few and far between.

It is broken. Crit damage and some cp stars aren't working at all here.

JoSePHRiNG

It will take some adjustment but I think overall very good change for role-playing non the less,

Let me explain further, when I first saw the Green tree I was like "Is this a joke?" but it was actually a just non-combat
tree. Things like guard heat reduction, sneak range reduction, merchant haggling and blade of woe witness changing etc.

The Blue tree being completely about combat and Red tree being completely for the defence was a very welcome change (at least for me).

But actually, tree system itself not good, you sometimes have to spend your points on things you don't want to and maybe that would be a problem for the player who does not have enough point to just unlock what they want.

If somehow you guys change this "Necessary point" system it would be better in my humble opinion.

chiipso

None of the following blue CP trees are buffing/applying to Overload Light/Heavy attack.

- Thaumaturge
- Deadly Aim
- Biting Aura

Bug?

Jaimeh

I didn't play around with the CP too much yet to have any concrete feedback on how they impact stats, but with some rough allocations of around 1500CP, some stats seemed lower than live on the same (magicka) build, like crit chance, for example. But that was without too much tweaking, so I reserve opinion in that regard, but it was disappointing to see. What I absolutely didn't enjoy though was the interface: it's not intuitive, it's not streamlined, and it's very time consuming. I would have prefered more clear-cut pathways to the stars, I don't care so much about the stars falling on top of the thief/mage/warrior illustrations, even though it's pretty. It makes the whole CP process cumbersome visually. Also, I didn't like how you can't remove all the points automatically down to 0 (as you can do now on live), although maybe there was a way and I missed it. Finally, the controller UI is more zoomed in than the m/k UI, and it makes moving around to all the areas in a given tree even more tiresome. For something so integral to combat, I would have preferred an interface that was more utilitarian, and less busy.

Cuddler

I agree with the previous posters in that the new system does not meet its stated goals. The progression is still vertical, in fact, more so than the old system. There is no surprise the new system is getting so much negative feedback. Reaching maximum combat effectiveness now requires a lot more grind, something few players enjoy.

There is a fairly simple fix: make all stars that impact combat slottable. You could increase the number of slots e.g. from 4 to 5, but the end result should be a system where a new player can quickly become competitive in all end-game activities.

Non-combat stars could remain passive, however, please get rid of the gating where players are forced to spend points on something they do not want to open stars they want.

Altyrann

Cuddler wrote: »

I agree with the previous posters in that the new system does not meet its stated goals. The progression is still vertical, in fact, more so than the old system. There is no surprise the new system is getting so much negative feedback. Reaching maximum combat effectiveness now requires a lot more grind, something few players enjoy.

There is a fairly simple fix: make all stars that impact combat slottable. You could increase the number of slots e.g. from 4 to 5, but the end result should be a system where a new player can quickly become competitive in all end-game activities.

Non-combat stars could remain passive, however, please get rid of the current gating where players are forced to spend points on something they do not want to open stars they want.

Couldn't agree more on the last bit in particular. If you're already struggling for points even with high CP having to spend on gateway stars you don't want or need is just frustrating.

ninibini

Please show us with a video where your QA HM team does vSunspire speed run on toons with 1k-ish CP.

DeathStalker

I'm not a fan of the new CP system. The damage nerf is way too high. If you gave more vertical progression for the initial 810cp it would improve my view a lot. But losing so much dps is really discouraging and frustrating.

Turtilla

Vaoh wrote: »

When Update 29 launches, it will take less experience to gain Champion Points than it currently does. Will players retain their same CP level or will their CP increase to reflect their total experience gain?

For example:
It takes 2 billion experience to reach CP1500. Next patch, if 2 billion experience is enough to reach C1800, would the player become a CP1800 or will they remain as a CP1500...

Stuff like thia soooo needs to be addressed! It feels like they left it out on purpose :c as a CP1475 player who has spent 4 years of regular play (and 6 thousand hours or so) on this game, I cannot imagine grinding to CP3600, I am not even halfawy there. Do they want us to take ~10 years to get to max CP?
Even if the rate is increased, it will feel like a slap to the face for veteran players to be left with the CP that they have now. We put a ton of work and time into gaining this much accumulated XP and if it means nothing after this change, honestly, I don't feel like playing this game anymore. If they change the rate at which you gain CP, they NEED to recalculate ALL players' CPs according to their total XP gained, otherwise it's just incredibly degrading to the current players.

Secondly, could we NOT have this be another damage nerf? I may not like the power creep either, but a lot of newer content ZOS pushes out is designed with specific DPS thresholds in mind. Let's not make this unpassable. Also also, it feels extremely unrewarding to first be allowed to hit high damage and then have it be nerfed. Instead of that, maybe work on scaling up stuff like nonDLC dungeons and trials?

Finally, it's hard to test anything when people on PTS don't even have 3600CP to test with.

EDIT: I don't think that it'll look appealing to new players if the CP gain rate isn't lowered to what getting to, say, CP1200 takes now. 810 rn is already kind of a grind for ppl, and imagine that more than tripled having talked to some ppl below CP810, slightly above CP810, and around my level, I learned that NONE of them would be happy with their CP not being recalculated to the new one based on total XP gained.

Drazhar14

I'm Champion level 676 DPS. I assigned points in the new system with similar passives from the old system. My DPS on live against the stone husk target dummy was 20-21k. With the new system on PTS, it went down to 14-15k... so the increase to base stats did nothing to offset the change to champion system. It flat out has made my character significantly weaker.

By looking at all the slotable and passive skills, vertical progression seems even more prevalent than before. This isn't horizontal progression at all. There is a huge power creep since there is no longer diminishing returns and you need way more CP than before to close the gap between veteran players.

Suggestion: Bring back diminishing returns the more CP you dump into a specific star and increase the strength at lower levels.

Also, the Craft passive to boost the value of fenced items by 15% does not seem to work (Yes I slotted it).

HEIIMS

Can you please rework Green CP tree a bit? It's abolutely fine to have more options for RP friendly nodes, or general utility nodes, but as of right now this CP tree provides absolutely nothing for any type of serious content. Nodes like cheaper wayshrines, chance for a free soul gem, enchantment decay reduction or armor repair cost reduction are absolutely useless, since these things are so trivial, they don't end up mattering. More sustain or moevement utility oriented nodes would feel a lot better.
Looking at this tree it honetly feels like you came up with most of them the night before and that it wasn't "2 years of development"

Nordic__Knights

as my PC account is only 797 cp its been hard to see what this system can and cant do for my 1415cp PS4 account , but even an dumb *** like myself can see that this system was made for 2k+ cp if your wanting to be anything close to live and that it has more issues then CP1.0 did not only for new players but vets as well , take the craft tree , you want close to 270cp to get something that on live is just 75 thats close to 200 extra cps for what ,

I KNOW I KNOW THERES NO NEED TO KEEP GOING YOUR GOING TO DO AS YOU WANT ANYWAY , BUT HOPE YOU KEEP YOUR PLAYERS/MONEY IN MIND AS IDK THIS JUST MIGHT BE IT FOR A LOT OF THEM BEING PUSHED SO FAR BACK DOWN IN THE THINGS THEY CAN AND CANT DO WITH THIS NEW SYSTEM

ApostateHobo

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

Us console players reading these comments ....So for now, at least if I read things right, 1700 CP is kind of near the same as 810 is now?

It is a scary time to be a console player lol we just sit and watch

Seriously. I'm reading all this and going "oh no oh god why" especially since I do as much as possible solo, so getting my characters nerfed this hard is gonna suuuck. Please adjust this before it goes live zos, or nobody is going to be able to do the content they've done for years because now we're going to have to grind out over a thousand cp to be as strong as we are on live.

Alendrin

My first reaction to this system is very positive. I do think players have too much health though. People will only use stat/regen (like lava foot) foods in pve though, and its not like pvp needed more health.