PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

Epona222

Arkhaniir wrote: »

UI/UX Related:

1-) With a single constellation having a lot higher number of perks now, I am having difficulties seeing where everything is. The Stars mix with the background, I can't see the Lines connecting the Stars very well and when everything is unlocked its just a bowl of +/- signs with numbers. This makes unlocking higher perks or laying out a plan quite difficult since I can't see the full picture properly. A minimalistic visuals toggle of sorts would be greatly appreciated for anyone having trouble with it visually.

This ^ - it might look pretty, but is actually low on showing useful information, and problematic for many kinds of visual issues. The lines between the stars are virtually impossible to see, the difference between slottable stars and non slottable is not pronounced enough (go for a different shape of star rather than just a slight colour difference that is lost amongst the background noise).

The other thing is having to hover over each star to see whether you have maxed it or what stage you are at is not user-friendly at all - please at least make it an option to show a small bar that indicates 10/50 (points spent in the star) or 1/5 (number of stages purchased) or a % progress - anything really to see which ones aren't maxed at a glance. Make it a toggleable option to keep everyone happy.

LuxanQualta

UI Related Critique

The old interface was not very user friendly and this seems to be far worse to me. I have trouble seeing the difference between stars. The lines are nearly invisible to me. Labels are only visible when hovering - come on I don't want to have to remember everything - let me see stuff please. Make the interface such that it doesn't require so much effort to use. I would offer these suggestions.

1. There should be a bright horizontal line across the screen where stuff above it goes on the bar and stuff below does not.

2. Relationship lines need to be bright enough to see and clear - no one pixel wide faint lines - the artwork in the background may be gorgeous and attractive, but it makes seeing things that matter harder and makes the UI far less usable

3. Colors are not adequate for navigation - people have visual issues like color blindness in many forms - use shapes instead of colors to make it easy to see the difference

4. If you want to get a skill and hover over it, the path to it should light up so that you can see what you need for it.

5. Labels should be visible 100% of the time - not just when you hover over them. We should not have to play Kim's Game every time we use the interface.

6. Do some reading on Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act for accessibility on computers to get ideas on how to make this interface work better for people. Nah I am not talking about making it work for complete blindness, but I am talking about color blindness, cognitive issues, and the like where clear interfaces are so important to usability.

silvereyes

heaven13 wrote: »

There are some things that are showing in the CP trees that are also purchasable skills.

• Meticulous Disassembly (CP) vs Wood Extraction (purchasable woodworking passive) have the same exact wording (and none of the other crafting skills are included as CP options). Do they stack? Are crafting passives being moved to CP and skills just haven't been reworked yet?

I agree with @heaven13.

I would also add that Meticulous Disassembly is odd for several more reasons.

• Woodworking is the only option. Given that Jewelry Crafting, Blacksmithing, Clothing and Woodworking skill lines all have "Extraction" passives, it's unclear why Woodworking gets special CP treatment.
• It's unclear even what benefit it provides. "Allows the refining of more powerful resins from raw materials." But Wood Extraction already, "allows the refining of the most powerful resins from raw materials."
• Its massive cost. 100 CP for a little extra Sanded Ruby Ash per refine doesn't seem like it will ever be a good use of CP. IMO, that kind of cost is only justified for something that boosts the drop rate of all gold mats during refinement. Even a 1% boost to all trade skills might be worth it to those who make their money selling gold mats from writs or farming.
• Its location in the constellation. The central track is the one that draws the eye, and the stars below it in that track all seem appealing to new players (gold and inspiration boosts). Then, you hit a 100CP brick wall that looks like a blocker to most new players.
  
  Why not have it up at the top by War Mount, another giant point sink? Maybe move Plentiful Harvest to where Meticulous Disassembly is, move Meticulous Disassembly to where Gifted Rider is, and move Gifted Rider to where Plentiful Harvest is. That keeps all the stars in the path from the bottom to the top as ones that have smaller step increments, keeps the mount-related stars together, keeps the crafting/farming stars together and keeps the 100+CP stars out of the path of lower-CP progression tracks.

VoidCommander

Altyrann wrote: »

After some quick testing:

- The replacement of jump points with clear stages is helpful
- It's not immediately obvious how the unlocking along branches works, could use more signposting
- Some of the values look strange at first glance (not sure if this is just tooltips or actual impacts)
- On an 810 CP template, it feels like there's lots more you'd want to spend in the blue, a little more you might want in red and almost nothing impactful at all in green, so the even split of CP to spend feels a bit off

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

I have also experience a MAJOR decrease in dps, despite choosing what appeared to be very sensible cp choices. I understand that stamplar experieced many nerfs this patch with selenes and advancing yokuda, but it should not have taken me from a 102k rotation down to barely managing 52k. I even swapped advancing yokuda with the Deadly set (which wasn't nerfed) and it had no effect on the end dps. I'm not sure if this massive dps slice was intended, but I don't think I'm going to want to continue playing damage on all my toons is going to be almost halved despite my best efforts.

Nerhesi

This is a great start for the revamp but one step in the wrong direction.

I like what you have proposed on rock paper scissors - armor is looking to head in that direction very well.

However, CP is back to the same old problem. You do not have any meaningful choices that are not simply resolved by time. You have to create meaningful, difficulty choices to support a healthy meta. A build should not be able to spend 2k+ CP and then gain all the offensive and defensive benefits. A build should have to choose between speccing def, offence, mitigation, attrition, etc... This is a core issue. You seem to know this but then why are we not doing something about it in CP? Even though we are doing something about it in skills, armor, and so on...

A) Remove the passive CP benefits that dont need to slotted. So you get nothing for free just because you've been around...
Allow players to slot 5 passives "stars" or milestone abilities or whatever. (for example) This is from ANY tree. So you can grab 6 offensive abilities or tanking or trade or whatever you want. But you have to make a choice BETWEEN the trees... not just within them.
C) Activate "free" passives in a tree depending on how many of the above were chosen. This could be as simple as 2% more damage per warfare star or mitigation per fitness star or so.


So if I build full dps, I'm going to slot 5 offensive (maybe 4), and get that benefit. But I will be a glass canon.

We're not going address the dull, identical builds problem if you allow people to optimized horizontal CP benefits across the board. You need to make us choose what we want to be good at.

The reward for having high CP should be the ability to alternate between builds without having to respec. Not just to get better over all. You will not have meaningful pvp/pve with passive bonuses and optimized offensive, defensive and sustain boosts available to a build at the same time.

Make. Us. Have. To. Choose.

Then you will actually see a wider more meaningful meta.

ninibini

While the new images look great, the accessibility of the new system is not that great in my opinion.

What I'd like to see is:

• a label with the title, so I don't have to hover over it every time
• a clearer indication, what I need to unlock to reach a certain perk.
• if a star is maxed out or not, and possibly the progress, e.g. 10/50
• if a star is currently slotted

MopeyHat

I'm really impressed with the new direction of CP. Horizontal progression is something I've wanted for a long time, and seeing an actual chance at hybrids is really nice. The variation on what CP do now, and being able to slot different ones depending on the situation is really powerful and fun.

Visually, the trees are quite pretty as well.

However...

I'm really confused about how Brian said this:

As noted earlier in this discussion, we wanted to provide a system that favors horizontal progression over vertical. That said, there is a certain point where the system shifts to favor horizontal progression IF you invest enough CP in vertical power first. That switch happens around the point where you’ve invested 300 CP per tree (or 900 total CP), depending on how you spend your CP. It really tails off around 1200 total CP.

As someone's already pointed out, the actual point where it "switches" isn't going to be at 900 for endgame players. It's going to be where DPS tops out with 1400+ CP, with just 4 slottable stars and the DPS contributing passive stars.

And since there are no longer diminishing returns, what does "tailing off" mean? Because the system as it is now, from when you start earning CP to 1500 CP, you're still gaining the same amount of power about every 10 CP.

I think maybe the stages for at the very least the slottable stars need to be lowered by a lot to encourage earlier horizontal progression. Like, I'd like to be able to pick between a couple DPS specs or a survivability option at a reasonable CP "price" and not lose out on a lot of base buffs or have to respec. For the plain power we're losing from CP 1.0, we should be gaining the power to make choices in 2.0, right? But right now I'm not seeing that happening without hundreds more CP or respecs.


My other big issue is the green tree, which has a large number of stars with buffs previously much more easily available gated by stars that you can spend no less than 75 points in. For lower-end CP players it's a real grind getting to the fun stars, and for higher-end players those stars may be totally useless for them (e.g. extra inspiration or stealth bonuses)

MopeyHat

VoidCommander wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

After some quick testing:

- The replacement of jump points with clear stages is helpful
- It's not immediately obvious how the unlocking along branches works, could use more signposting
- Some of the values look strange at first glance (not sure if this is just tooltips or actual impacts)
- On an 810 CP template, it feels like there's lots more you'd want to spend in the blue, a little more you might want in red and almost nothing impactful at all in green, so the even split of CP to spend feels a bit off

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

I have also experience a MAJOR decrease in dps, despite choosing what appeared to be very sensible cp choices. I understand that stamplar experieced many nerfs this patch with selenes and advancing yokuda, but it should not have taken me from a 102k rotation down to barely managing 52k. I even swapped advancing yokuda with the Deadly set (which wasn't nerfed) and it had no effect on the end dps. I'm not sure if this massive dps slice was intended, but I don't think I'm going to want to continue playing damage on all my toons is going to be almost halved despite my best efforts.

If you're currently parsing on the 21m, word is that it does not have debuffs applied correctly at the moment. And we can't even be sure all the CP stars actually work.

bluebird

Thought I was hallucinating. Sub-constellations within the constellations is a terrible idea. Who green-lit this UI? I need to spend CP in specific, limited available perks in the main constellation to unlock the subconstellation, then spend CP in the subconstellation so it opens up the path to move further in the main constellation... whyyyyyy?

Also, the background image is super busy and you can barely see anything. Tone it down, or tone the stars up, but then again you created so many different types of stars now (unnecessarily) that honestly this isn't better. There are stars that have stages but are always active, that have stages but must be equipped, that give bonuses for every point but must be equipped, some stars are subconstellations, what? Whyyy?

The linear gating-off of stars takes choice away. If I want to pickpocket people, neither by Blade of Woe damage nor my Heat from Guards has anything to do with it (especially since I'm most likely taking this on a character that maxed out TG and DB and has diminishing bounty anyway). Being forced to spend CP on crap I don't want, just to be able to get to the CP-sink that I do want is a worse feeling than before, when we were able to make the choices we wanted, and got passive bonuses at no CP cost.

If you want choice, then make all of them equip-dependent, but freely choosable without ridiculous path-forcing. That way, you can freely choose the perks you find most useful, and equip them depending on the scenario. It will still be limited by the champion slots and the CP points, so if you specced mainly into pickpocketing with a few points in backstabbing, switching around your champion slots for a DB daily run won't make you OP in every scenario; you'd still have to respec for that.

stefj68

you need around 1700cp to be able to push about same dps as on live

so if this go live i can't run any vet 65k+ trials with my 1100cp lol

please lower cost of the dps increasing ranks or give us free 750cp for subscribers

each constellation are nice
we defenitively could use more with passive bonus, not needed to be slotted

thanks for the awesome jobs

VoidCommander

MopeyHat wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

After some quick testing:

- The replacement of jump points with clear stages is helpful
- It's not immediately obvious how the unlocking along branches works, could use more signposting
- Some of the values look strange at first glance (not sure if this is just tooltips or actual impacts)
- On an 810 CP template, it feels like there's lots more you'd want to spend in the blue, a little more you might want in red and almost nothing impactful at all in green, so the even split of CP to spend feels a bit off

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

I have also experience a MAJOR decrease in dps, despite choosing what appeared to be very sensible cp choices. I understand that stamplar experieced many nerfs this patch with selenes and advancing yokuda, but it should not have taken me from a 102k rotation down to barely managing 52k. I even swapped advancing yokuda with the Deadly set (which wasn't nerfed) and it had no effect on the end dps. I'm not sure if this massive dps slice was intended, but I don't think I'm going to want to continue playing damage on all my toons is going to be almost halved despite my best efforts.

If you're currently parsing on the 21m, word is that it does not have debuffs applied correctly at the moment. And we can't even be sure all the CP stars actually work.

Thanks for the heads up. I was getting a little worried. Perhaps I'll start testing again next week after the first incremental patch.

UntouchableHunter

Thank you so much ZOS!!!!

Now I feel like I can really make my character with a real identity. The new CP system is way more interesting and dymanic than what we currently have. You guys did a amazing job.

Vaoh

When Update 29 launches, it will take less experience to gain Champion Points than it currently does. Will players retain their same CP level or will their CP increase to reflect their total experience gain?

For example:
It takes 2 billion experience to reach CP1500. Next patch, if 2 billion experience is enough to reach C1800, would the player become a CP1800 or will they remain as a CP1500...

AScaryDinosaur

Initial Impressions: I think this looks really promising! I love the new UI and the various ways to spend skill points. My only concern currently is the rate at which new champion points are acquired. At CP 939 (my current CP on live) I did a round of Skyreach and only got about ~45% of a champion point with enlightened and a 50% exp scroll. This seems really slow to me considering how far below the new cap I will be and may cause extreme power differentials between new and veteran players (think of those still only cp 400!). Overall, however, I am excited to delve deeper into this system and see where it goes!

Hope everyone at ZOS is having a great day!

Starlight_Whisper

Healers are getting less sustain then dps with star procing on kills

Extinct_Solo_Player

Bash reduction cp is a joke, 60 cp just for it to reduce bash by 180 stamina?! It's already bad enough when there is no bash reduction jewelry glyphs and the overall damage of bash is way too low to justify the high cost .With the cp reduction it costs around 1760 stamina each bash for it to do around 500-600 damage.

rnklippel

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Biting Aura (10% AOE dmg) 50 pts (why's there two of this skill?)
Thaumaturgy (10% AOE dmg) 50 pts (why's there two of this skill?)

Damage over Time and Area of Effect are not the same thing. We have:

a. Single Target Direct Damage
b. Single Target Damage over Time
c. Area of Effect Direct Damage
d. Area of Effect Damage over Time

Deadly Aim affects a and b.
Biting Aura affects c and d.
Thaumaturge affects b and d.

MentalxHammer

Over 2700 CP is required for a minmaxed spec in pvp, this is unacceptable. I just left behind a CP 1300 account on xbox to play on the slightly more performant pc servers, the barrier of entry to play CP pvp is far too high with this iteration of the CP system.

In order to gain benefit from CP, you should need to slot the CP passive in one of the twelve CP passive slots, period. There shouldnt be ANY CP passives that you gain passive benefits from just for pumping CP into them.

This would require 1200 CP to fill 12/12 slots, which would be a much more reasonable grind. Yes, this would likely make CP weaker overall in the end, but CP should be tuned down in its potency, and this sort of a system would make your passive slot choices much more impactful.

Olupajmibanan

The biggest mistake you can possibly make is not rescalling current total XP gained amount to new standards.

Looking at Perf/Non-perf Arena weapons, you will definitely fall for that.

LadyNalcarya

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Over 2700 CP is required for a minmaxed spec in pvp, this is unacceptable. I just left behind a CP 1300 account on xbox to play on the slightly more performant pc servers, the barrier of entry to play CP pvp is far too high with this iteration of the CP system.

In order to gain benefit from CP, you should need to slot the CP passive in one of the twelve CP passive slots, period. There shouldnt be ANY CP passives that you gain passive benefits from just for pumping CP into them.

This would require 1200 CP to fill 12/12 slots, which would be a much more reasonable grind. Yes, this would likely make CP weaker overall in the end, but CP should be tuned down in its potency, and this sort of a system would make your passive slot choices much more impactful.

I'm not against passive bonuses, but in my opinion they should only apply to non-combat stuff such as harvesting, pickpocket etc.
And yeah, required cp investments seem to be massive. I'm worried that it would increase the gap between players even more, and this is the last thing this game needs. There are better (and prettier) mmos for grind fans, and one of ESO selling points is that you can jump into content with minimal time investments. I certainly don't wanna see this changed.

s_ch_kb16_ESO

On first look, I absolutely hate it. There's a ton of stuff that I care about - stuff that I could easily get before like higher quality items from treasure chests, higher movement speed and (on lower toons) crafting inspiration - that's hidden behind a ton of points that I don't need at all right now.
I checked on an account with around 830 CP and it feels like I sometimes can't even get the most necessary stuff because it takes so many CP to get through all the stuff I don't care about.

Plus it takes almost the same amount of XP to get to the next point (the difference was negligible), so it's gonna take me forever to get to the stuff I care about and I can already see me getting kicked from most groups because I don't have enough DPS, even if I optimise by build as much as possible (and I'm not good at that to begin with and now it seems to be a lot more complicated to do). At the very least I can't see myself complete any vet DLC dungeons until I got a ton more CP, which is gonna take forever.
Of course I'm gonna have to test stuff out, but the post already said that you're gonna be less powerful and I was already struggling with that kind of content.

Cireous

Right. I just absolutely lost my mind when looking over the CRAFT tree. It's like someone cracked open my brain and extracted everything I wanted out of it; my eyes wide and jaw in a permanent state of drop. WHAT THE HELL AM I GOING TO DO. I WANT EVERYTHING ON THAT TREE. THIS IS A PROBLEM. The the very BEST kind of problem.

• Please add a 4th 4-buttony thing at the top and a 4th constellation and dump half of the CRAFT constellations contents into it so I can use more things.

Tommy_The_Gun

I have a question (or more like suggestion):

Would it be possible to add a CP passive that would aid somehow potion-based builds ? You said it is a mater of choice, to give players a choice what they want to build for and what they want their characters to be.

On live server it is possible to make potion builds, with less recovery but with potion cooldown reduction. However, this type of gameplay does not seem to be supported by CP. There is no CP that would increase resources restored by potion or a way to reduce potion cooldown, or increase potion duration. It feels incoherent, as we have stamina, magicka, health, tri-stat recovery glyphs and also - potion cooldown & duration glyphs. This does not correspond with CP - so it feels like something was missing in CP system.

The only potion related CP passive is Foresight - but that is limited to healing only.

Zer0oo

From a pvp point of view the hp regen passive that will give you 50regen per 10 ultimate will be a problem.

Kurat

stefj68 wrote: »

you need around 1700cp to be able to push about same dps as on live

so if this go live i can't run any vet 65k+ trials with my 1100cp lol

please lower cost of the dps increasing ranks or give us free 750cp for subscribers

each constellation are nice
we defenitively could use more with passive bonus, not needed to be slotted

thanks for the awesome jobs

I wish that was the case.
But even if you have 3600 cp you will NOT able to push even close to the dps as currently on live.
I have 1400 cp and getting more wouldnt change much because you can still only slot 4 (blue tree - combat) stars. Some are passives yes, but they dont matter as much as slotable ones and even slotables are kinda meh. I main magden and tested different cp combinations. Currently on live I parse 85k but was only able to get 55k on PTS. Tried even on 3 mil dummy just in case the 21 mil is messed up again. No different, dps loss is massive. Currently on live, self buffed on 3 mil, wearing Mothers sorrow and Perf false god I get 42-45k, on PTS only 32-35K. Also sustain is way worse. Im Argonian and used parse food but still had to do few heavy attacks on 21 mil lol.

cyberjanet

Not sure whether the system is full of bugs or features.
First, not all the stars have + or - options, so you can't add points. These are limited.
Second, some of those that you can't adjust, talk about x bonus per stage, but there is no stages bar.
Also, it can take a while to see what your actual bonus is. Sometimes it stays at 0, even after confirming, but when you go back to it after changing something else, it works.

I have a short stream at showing this.

Ergele

I really like the new system but it will take some time to figure things out.

Anyways just wanted to say that CP passives that increase the fence price tag by 15 percent and the other passive that increases the strongbox gold amount is not working.

Hesperax79

This passive system do not give you too much freedom of building but a lot of required must-to-have stars if you will play CP - PVP or PvE

nqvarihs

is this really the best you can do after 'working on it for 2 years' and destroying classes and skills in the name of standardization for this? the new cp is terrible and does not solve any of the problems you mentioned on stream.

horizontal over vertical progression: nope, you need to grind to 2k+ if you want passives.
more friendly for new players: same, hf seeing other people with 2k cp when you get to 160.
power/tankyness not decided by whoever has more cp: same, and this is only reinforced by the lack of diminishing returns
more choices and limitations: no?? well i guess now you need to put 10 points in a few random stars before you get to the actives you want.
removing jump points: ah yes now it's called 'stages' and is very different, trust

green is rp tree so i wont comment on it, except that for some reasons you decided to put the actually useful perks at the very end of the tree? you need 250 cp (1st jump point on every star inbetween) to simply acces the mount & the food passives, without putting a single point in either. 380 to max both, that's 1140 cp. sounds good for new players

red tree: the cost reduction are a straight nerf from current cp. they cap out at roughly ~10% of the base cost, while on cp1.0 it is not uncommon to have ~15-20%.
why do we get more max stats? stats are already high enough, stop giving more reasons to go full procs (which arent getting nerfed btw). i am currently sitting at 18k base hp without any food, armor, points into health, racials etc.
bashing brutality: honestly this one is a fkn joke. you nerfed bash into oblivion and we need to 100 cp to get it back to not even close to what it used to be?
strategic reserve: ah yes, because health recovery needed a buff.

blue tree: fighting fitness capped at 10%? really? when malacath is already meta? don't even mention backstabber. flanking is a terrible mechanic in this game, and not just because of the desyncs and lag. the entire tree looks like it is overall a consequent nerf to damage output, which i guess falls in line with the buffs to heavy amor and the nerfs to light & med.

single +: there is some sort of moving away from % dmg & mitigation perks, which is good.
otherwise the entire thing looks lazy and not tested at all, as if it was only done through some random excel spreadsheet. like every other patch.

and cant even enjoy no cp next patch thanks to the extra stats & mitigation

Ragnaroek93

The entire system is horrible tbh. Almost only vertical progression, powercurve is way too deep, no catchup (in fact you fall behind because of how enlighten works), no dminishing returns on stars, way too much xp needed for CP (I need 670k xp for 810 -> 811)...

Please don't turn this game into a WoW clone in terms of power progression.