PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

laufey

I'm really not a fan of how the Craft tree is laid out. There are decent things tucked away behind high-cost but not very useful (or entirely unrelated) nodes, so you're essentially forced to drop CP into something pointless that you'll never slot just to unlock the things you actually want. Eg. if you want mount speed, you have to go all the way to the top of the tree regardless of whether you care about anything on the route there. Then the fishing perks are on the right side, so you need to either go through the various harvesting nodes and then drop 100 CP into Homemaker to reach them, or take the bottom route which means you have to pick up charge/potion/food passives instead. Getting to Master Gatherer the fastest way (to get it back, since right now it only requires 75 CP in the Lover to be active) means you have to take the bounty-related stars, even if you're on a character that doesn't engage in the justice system or is the kind of thief that doesn't need them (or you can go up the middle and spend 100CP on the weird woodworking star as well as pick up some bonus inspiration which is completely useless on a maxed crafter - that's an odd pairing of stars right there, tbh).

If they're dead-set on locking things behind other nodes, then the tree needs to be either more split up, or at least re-arranged to make more sense.

(Also, that soul gem skill is definitely not worth 100CP.)

Tendrielle

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please don't turn this game into a WoW clone in terms of power progression.

That. I think it would be utmost important to have CP caps lower than 3600 initially, rising with every update maybe, but this game will turn into pure grind else (I don't even think of CP PvP), and become almost totally unattractive for newcomers.

siddique

I think this system will increase the gap between veteran and new players by an unimaginable degree. On PC, I have a 682 CP MNB, which does 91-92k dps on live. The same character does 57k on PTS. (I slotted CP to what made the most sense) and the parse was pretty much like it is on live.

Considering how it looks like you need to slot way more points than available at 810 to reach the numbers you get on live with 810 cp, this looks like a huge nerf and will result in 1700/1800 cp to be the same as what 810 is today.

Personally, I think the CP change is good as far as the direction of the game is considered and it was long due, however, I think they were worked without too much thought (contrary to what was said at the reveal).

DarkPh0enix

Since the new CP's are much faster to acquire, the old CP's lvls should be converted into new ones for the fairness. I couldn't find anything about it in the notes so I better address it before thousands of hours are wasted for millions of veteran players.

LordKelsier

System is broken beyond believe. With the CP810 preset and the same gear setup as on live I lost 67k of DPS (dropped from 102k parse on trial dummy to 35k).

As my character on live is only in the low 900 CPs this won't change drastically, so I will be back to doing normal dungeons instead of trifecta trials basically. Who thought this would be a good idea?

Nobody below ~ CP1800 will be able to run any kind of veteran content, as this seems to be the point where you would reach somewhat acceptable DPS numbers again >.<

This_0ne

is that star must works for all profession, not only woodwork and its uncorrect description? Because i dont see any other craft professions stars.

Hesperax79

Reaching CP 810 now takes ~1 year whitout power play but with daily log-in.
If this 3600 CP can be reach whitin same amount of time you will have ~10 level per day. THis is...how can I say in english...laughable and funny but with a bitter mood.

This game was not designed like WoW where you know that in every 2nd year you will start from zero. ESO had a different design and this was the reason why it is good. You can reach the max level and then you can start to mastering your character grinding new gears ec. But this system will change too much.

Kurat

cyberjanet wrote: »

Not sure whether the system is full of bugs or features.
First, not all the stars have + or - options, so you can't add points. These are limited.
Second, some of those that you can't adjust, talk about x bonus per stage, but there is no stages bar.
Also, it can take a while to see what your actual bonus is. Sometimes it stays at 0, even after confirming, but when you go back to it after changing something else, it works.

I have a short stream at showing this.

Some stars dont have +/- because you need to add points to other starts that connect them. There are lines , some hard to see but if you start putting points where you can and then move towards the stars you want, they became available. Its like Skyrim perks system.

Also some stars have visible stages, mostly 5 but some have just 0-50 points. In that case the 50 is the stage.

And the "current bonus 0" thing is just a visual bug atm, they mentioned it on live stream and its gonna be fixed in future patches. All points still get applied if you check your character info.

Luke_Flamesword

I don't want to comment whole system now, but just write about one thing - craft tree. With so many useful slottable passives it will be annoying to constant reslotting depending of situation - when I'm stealing, fishing, running around zone for treasures and nodes or drink potion, I will think - I should now slot this passive for better fishes, and this one for more mats, and now this one for better loot from pickpocketing, and this one for running faster. It will be really annoying and frustrating. I really don't want that kind of micromanagment.

I suggest more slots for crafting passives (for example 6 instead of 4), beacuse it don't gives advantage in battle, so it won't change balance (yeah, I know that is more calculations for server, but this only 12 vs 14, so no big difference).

Also very useful QoL addition will be possibilit to save some champion bar builds to easy switch for different scenarios (pvp, pve, stealing, fishing, etc.). I don't want manually change every skill every time when I make another acitivity.

Kurat

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The entire system is horrible tbh. Almost only vertical progression, powercurve is way too deep, no catchup (in fact you fall behind because of how enlighten works), no dminishing returns on stars, way too much xp needed for CP (I need 670k xp for 810 -> 811)...

Please don't turn this game into a WoW clone in terms of power progression.

Power progression? lol
If this goes live as is, no one is able to hit even close to 100k even when maxed at 3600cp
Dps was basically dialed back 2-3 years. How we supposed to do newer content dunno.

Renegader

the maximum points to minmax (over 2700+ cp!!!!!!!) is way way way way way WAY too high and needs to be adjusted! Whos idea was this?? it was supposed to be reduced to 160?

Current HP regen is laughable, 10k+ and combine that with mistform

Current HP (55k+) in cyrodiil resulting as a warden you can get a 20k artic wind heal, basically for free considering you can get upwards of 4k mag regen as well.

Mitigation is redundant. You gave heavy armor 21% free dmg mitigation out of nowhere?? combine that with the base line 15% mitigation and additional 40% mitigation from cp. A necro can very easily get over 100% dmg mitigation resulting your attacks to do 1/4th of what it should do, (because of how battlespirit work)

Combine this with the already insane amount of damage we get from proc sets.

Honestly Zos, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam this isnt well thought out and NEEDS to be adjusted.

i dont have belief all of this will be fixed before launch and its a shame. this will break pvp as you know it.

ESO_Nightingale

I'd be adding the magicka block cost and tank related ice staff passives as cp slottables as well as brittle application from status effects in general instead of chilled to prevent compounded power with ice staff being both crit damage and tanking. This way the ice staff can actually be freed up for critical damage so that it can be a legitimate option over fire staves and not just solely usable by one group member before it's viability completely drops off the face of the earth.

LadyHeloise

I agree with much of what has been said and I have only had a bit of a play so far. But I really like this, I think you have got absolutely the right idea, but there are issues.

1. the visibility of lines/pathways and different types of stars (didn't even know this was a thing really, apart from the sub-constellations) is atrocious. This needs to be improved for everyone, and I can't imagine how poor this is for people with any sort of sight issue.
2. Some of the passives are too powerful and would therefore be better as active stars to put on your bar (others have given examples of these)
3. What's so special about woodworking, and why is this a gateway to other things? I can only assume this is a work in progress and we will see other craft skills added somewhere. And how does this stack? What does it mean when playing? Bit vague.

I'm sure there will be other comments later!

Edit: I think the names are awful too - they should be more lore friendly.

ajkb78

The principle of the new system seems good. However the implementation is problematic. I'm not sure what your guiding principle was, but a reasonably sensible one might have been that players at the old max CP should see relatively little change in how powerful their characters are. Another might be to reduce the power gap between new and old players, so that what you can achieve is based more on skill than time served.

The first problem is that whereas in CP 1.0 all 810 CP served in some way to boost combat effectiveness - red defence, blue attack, green sustain - now only the blue CP really boost combat effectiveness, with both offensive and defensive stars in here, but you can still only spend 1/3 of your points here. Red gives a bit of health and sustain but all the offensive power and damage mitigation is in blue.
By putting all my 270 blue CP to attacking stars I can achieve nearly but not quite as much damage as in the old system, but zero damage mitigation. If I take the damage mitigation I would need to perform okay in vet trials, I will have nothing to spend on damage enhancement. The result is that considerably higher cp will be needed to clear the same content. I would suggest approximately doubling players' CP when the new patch goes live would be fair to ensure they can complete similarly challenging content to current live. Alternatively, or as well, you could do away with the restriction of spending 1/3 of CP in each constellation. Why not allow players to dump all their CP in blue? (Or, if a master crafter thief, in green, and to heck with fighting abilities!)

The second problem is that whereas the old system had diminishing returns, the new one does not. You get as many extra spell damage for the last 10 points you put in the tree as for the first 10. So the power gap between players is now magnified. An alternative approach would be to scale the benefits you get from trees to account for diminishing returns: in my example the first 10 points might get you 1/3 of the total possible spell damage whereas the last 10 would only add a very small amount. This would then reduce the power gap between two players of equal skill but differing time served, which seems healthy for PvP especially as XP is harder to earn through PvP than it it through PvE.

A combination of the two approaches would probably work best: introduce diminishing returns back into the CP system and scale up everyone's earned CP by somewhere between 1.5x and 2x from live. And check that the resultant combat effectiveness of a player with 810 legacy CP remains similar, with those players with more CP seeing a slight (but diminishing) buff.

thedoodle_90

Please add a star to make melee weapons do magic dmg and return magic so magdps can use something other than staves

BlissfulDeluge

Can the people at CP cap on live be raised to the PTS CP cap?

I am 1831 CP, myself, so I'm not the worst off, but still, the grind is still so god-awful per CP at that point that reaching the cap will only be achievable by a handful of people.

Or better yet, do away with CP entirely. It's an archaic system.

Darktrox

MopeyHat wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

After some quick testing:

- The replacement of jump points with clear stages is helpful
- It's not immediately obvious how the unlocking along branches works, could use more signposting
- Some of the values look strange at first glance (not sure if this is just tooltips or actual impacts)
- On an 810 CP template, it feels like there's lots more you'd want to spend in the blue, a little more you might want in red and almost nothing impactful at all in green, so the even split of CP to spend feels a bit off

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

I have also experience a MAJOR decrease in dps, despite choosing what appeared to be very sensible cp choices. I understand that stamplar experieced many nerfs this patch with selenes and advancing yokuda, but it should not have taken me from a 102k rotation down to barely managing 52k. I even swapped advancing yokuda with the Deadly set (which wasn't nerfed) and it had no effect on the end dps. I'm not sure if this massive dps slice was intended, but I don't think I'm going to want to continue playing damage on all my toons is going to be almost halved despite my best efforts.

If you're currently parsing on the 21m, word is that it does not have debuffs applied correctly at the moment. And we can't even be sure all the CP stars actually work.

Can someone confirm this? I'm also dealing 57k dps instead of 102k on the trial dummy.

Darktrox

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The entire system is horrible tbh. Almost only vertical progression, powercurve is way too deep, no catchup (in fact you fall behind because of how enlighten works), no dminishing returns on stars, way too much xp needed for CP (I need 670k xp for 810 -> 811)...

Please don't turn this game into a WoW clone in terms of power progression.

EXP rate was not changed on day 1 patch, and they said they will do it.

EgyptRaider

I'm dropping in for perhaps a very minor thing. That being that the new names for the three remaining constellations feel really unimaginative. CP 1.0 managed to bring across the fantasy of gaining powers from the stars really well, and CP2 isn't only moving away from it by removing the Chargers constellations, but also by the new names of 'Craft, Warfare, and Fitness'. Honoustly, all three of these titles are awkward and not even really fitting the constellations they are still clearly meant to represent (How is the Thief supposed to represent Crafting, or the Mage Warfare?)

I get that gameplay-wise it might feel weird to force a mage character to spend points on a warrior and thief specialization, bu,t by the time people hit CP, you could at least expect them to understand that they're named after the constellations, right?

I originally had two ideas on this:

-- Stick to the thematisation of CP 1.0 with the Thief, Mage, and Warrior (in names) reclaiming their former roles and turning the various sub-constellations we see again in the various charges of the firmament. In case they ever want to expand the amount of sub-contellations they could always pull from the various planets, moons, cultural interpretations, Oblivion planes or even the serpent from the firmament to keep the theme going strong.

-- Turn the trio into a something different lorewise: like the Enatiomorp, in which the three guardians get turned into the King, Rebel, and the Witness. Or the moons, the sun, and the stars... or anu (The mage?), padomay (The Thief?), and nirn (The Warrior?), making our character become stronger by tapping into these primal, cosmic forces.

In a game that's so strongly framed around it's amazing, metaphysical lore -- surely we all can come up with something better than our characters becoming stronger by investing into the all-powerful forces of 'Craft, Warfare and Fitness'....

I have discussed this issue as well on a reddit post earlier. And someone else came up with suggestions like: Cunning, Willpower, and Constitution. Descriptions which I believe would still help to move away from the 'Thief, Mage, and Warrior' titles but remaining true to the multi-class virtues these constellations can represent. I think these would really fit better than the three currently planned to be implemented.

GrimTheReaper45

Im a console player so I havent tested anything but I did watch a full breakdown of the new system and here are my impressions.

1) I really hope you guys are implementing a different UI for console with this. One of the worst UI's from skyrim for console was the perk trees and im getting that vibe again. No you dont have the pan to the specific star thing going on which helps but i wouldnt say it seems console friendly like the previous version.

2) I think you guys over shot the vertical progression when it come to passives. Maybe a little bit on actives. Im at 1037 as of right now, that leaves me with 345 points for each tree. Im not saying I dont have enough to make a good solid build I can use but I feel like Im going to be at a disadvantage against higher level players for awhile before horizontal progression to run alternate build specs comes in to play. Thats not a great feeling. I started playing in 2015 at console launch then took a break from just after IC launch to right before homestead. When I came back everyone was at a much higher level then me and it was not a good feeling to essentially be carried and useless to the people I was playing with. It and the pressure to be whatever will be considered at good level now is not something I want again, especially now that Ive been max level for awhile and Im holding my own with the people I play with.

3) Im concerned about builds. I really like my build where im dropping a few aoes and dots then focusing on single target spam. With the slotted passives being arranged like they are It seems like im going to have to spec into one damage type (single target, dot, aoe) to be able to work within the slots given. If thats not how the endgame meta ends up, great. I cant test it, im not seeming what its like first hand, its just a concern of mine upon seeing this.

MageCatF4F

Ok, I am currently CP 825 on live and have enjoyed being a somewhat useful team member for several months.

With what I've seen so far by this CP revision, it seems I am being nerfed back to CP 200 effectively. With a giant grind ahead. I can't say I like that.

Also have to agree with most of the negative UI comments - particularly those stupid faint lines between stars. I have vision issues and that is really not helping an already bad situation.

ajkb78

As I said before I do think the new system had great potential, albeit with some serious implementation issues at present. I do think those can be overcome and that the new system can be a good thing in the long run, but it's such a big change that I don't think it was a good idea to release it after only one PTS cycle. It would be better to do something similar to what was done with the proposed changes to light and heavy attacks: put it on PTS by itself for a few weeks just after an update, so that you could get the big picture feedback, and then refine it in time for the following new content PTS cycle, do further refinement during that PTS cycle and then finally release to live after much more testing.

Ellimist_Entreri

Comparing my live account to pts (814 live, 812pts as I leveled up a couple times since they copied chars) on pts I need ~672,000 for next level and on live I need ~674,000. From what I can tell no scaling adjustment or experience curve changes have been made as of now.

Waiting on that xp curve revamp.

Mix

My first impression is that it feels restrictive.

I started playing around with the Crafting-Thief constellation first. I don't like having to get stars I have no use for in order to reach the one I would like.

For example: I have all my crafting skills leveled and have no use for bonus inspiration. I would not invest points in a star that gives bonus inspiration because it is absolutely useless to me. However, in order to reach stars I do want I MUST invest in this star.

I found it difficult to see which stars were connected to begin with where there are clusters of stars (this is on the Thief constellation and bottom-middle area) and the lines are quite faint.

What I would like to see? Remove all the lines requiring you to unlock stars before being able to invest in others. Since you can only have 4 active buffs at once I don't see why this would break anything.

That would let us truly play as we want.

If someone fishes but doesn't craft on a character they are going to want those new fishing stars right away but they are locked behind so many other stars!

I was intrigued by all the new thieving/assassin stars BUT the first one deals with bounties, which I rarely have and when I do it is small and I have heaps of edicts to use if I need to get rid of it fast. This is my playstyle, I consider getting a bounty being a bad thief/assassin as the idea is to NOT be seen. This type of star doesn't interest me and it sucks that ones that do are locked behind it.

Coopersnow

The new CP system is really bad. To get to a MINIMUM optimal DPS point you need 1940CP. That will allow you to unlock all the blue passives in dps and mitigation that you NEED. Yes you need them its not a choice if you want to max your dps/surviveability in Trial PvE content. Why do i say its a minimum cause at 1940Cp you just unlock all your passives in mitigation and damage and only 4 active slotables, you will want atleast 6 slotables to swap from boss to boss and boss/trash. You still dont have any CP to put into healing done blue CP side which is beneficial too ofcourse but at that point you need over 2400 CP to reach a point of CP where you can actually talk about horizontal progression. Atleast for me this will be the end of this game for me i will not grind 1000CP just to begin being competetive with someone. And this is JUST PvE, PvP is even worse cause you want sooooo many of those passive which i repeat you dont need to slot you just have to put points into. The power diff between a cp 1200 and a cp 2200 in PvP will be unimaginable.

My proposed fixes.
Lower the amount of passive CPs
Or make it that you can put your 1000 CP how ever you want not 1/3 per tree cause that way you can max out your trial stats cause you dont need almost any green or red CP, this wont fix the PVP issue cause there are soo many damn passives you want to have.
Or scale everyones CP up to their true XP level which they should be in cp 2.0
Or just trash this system cause its a joke in its current form.

Now instead of having the "social pressure" to be cp810 to join endgame trials you moved it to cp 2400......
These are all just my opinions form a perspective of a endgame dps PvE player.

preevious

One of the main issue, in my opinion is that, in the current system, bonus where separated :

Blue constellations brought damage
Red constellations brought mitigation.

So, now, you still need as many cp for both of those, but they are in the same blue constellation.
This is a gigantic hit, one way or another.

Either you do quite a lot less damage, or you die quite a lot more (and thus do quite a lot less damage).


So, yes .. a solution would be either

1. Just have a pool of CP you can use in any constellation, regardless of colors.
2. Give bonus cp to everyone when this goes live (like current cp*2)
3. Lower the cost of stars.
4. Make cp hugely quicker to get.

Please, don't artificially lower the level of anyone just so s/he'll buy xp scrolls.
That's not nice.

Hesperax79

Coopersnow wrote: »

T To get to a MINIMUM optimal DPS point you need 1940CP. That will allow you to unlock all the blue passives in dps and mitigation that you NEED.

Maybe I understanding is not well but the CP level is 3600 it means that we can spend 1200 point / color. If we need 1940 CP it means that we can not have all the required perk, can we?

TKOS7

Points/Questions from a long time player:

The new trees are a good idea, and I like the variety of non-combat perks you can apply to create nice themed charactors.

The DPS drop is very concerning. My stam main hit 50k on 3m, now only 35k (86k on 21m down to 50k). I believe this is due in part to template toons on PTS being cp810 instead of the new cap, but as a cp1400 player on live this is annoying as I'd like to be able to test on PTS at the power level I am on live. More concerningly, I'm not sure how going from cp810 on PTS to cp1700 (or whatever people have worked out the cap is) is going to buy us back the ~40% loss in DPS across the board.

So ideas are good, but please as a matter of priority update the PTS so we can create template toons at the actual max CP.

And please make lightning staves more useful in PVE because I'm so bored of Inferno-or-bust.

Starlock

I am unfortunately excluded from being able to test anything, but skimming through some of the comments about forced pathing for taking stars is concerning. I didn't even notice the super faint lines in the presentation, but apparently players are forced to take points in X, Y, and Z, to get to W?

That's not choice, nor horizontal progression. It's fixed, forced progression that strips away character uniqueness and identity. Having some forced progression can make sense for some things, particularly sub-constellations. But otherwise? It should be an open system.

Odovacar

Us console players reading these comments ....So for now, at least if I read things right, 1700 CP is kind of near the same as 810 is now?