PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the new Champion Point System. After you have a chance to try out the new UI and different combat scenarios, let us know what you think!

Mykriz

Occult Overload doesn't seem to be working. Enemies killed with a status effect don't explode.

CyberOnEso

After a short look at the system, I will obviously be looking way more in-depth into it.

It seems that having more CP will just make you stronger and ignore some points of the game, for example, there is a star that does not need to be slotted which gives you more penetration, with 0 downsides.

Considering that you already need to put in a lot of points to reach near-optimal levels of DPS you will have to focus on optimizing your penetration when players with much more CP than you can just get an additional 1750 spell penetration. Without hindering their build in the slightest. (Or changing their CP distribution to account for it).

Previously you would have to weigh up whether you need the additional penetration or could invest more in Crit Dmg, or Elemental Damage. Now that choice is no longer there. If you have the CP, just get this bonus penetration with no other changes needed.

This is just one example, but there are plenty more stars that give these kinds of benefits. They do not need to be slotted nor do they provide any downside (you don't need to replace anything to get them). It is just a straight buff if you have more CP.

Also, whilst you may have balanced the system around players being able to complete content etc. You need over 1700 CP points to reach optimal DPS numbers . Maybe you can still complete content at lower CP, but if you want to compare yourself to another player unless you both are over 1700 the player with more CP will always have a significant advantage. (Especially because there are no longer diminishing returns).

I find this really worrying as ESO is a very skill-based MMO, for years your success was defined by your ability as a player, not on your CP count.

I think in general there are too many gold stars, that just reward you for having higher CP without having to slot anything to get it, there is no choice there.

Another example is as a DD or a healer you need to invest so many points in damage/ healing stars that, if you are below 1700 CP you don't have enough to invest in the mitigation stars, this isn't an issue for people over this but it creates a big discrepancy between very high CP and others, you are essentially giving free mitigation to people with high CP (Over 1700) and there is no choice to be made, since it's a gold star they will not need to sacrafice anything to get it. That's not a choice, it's free mitigation to people with over 1700CP.

That being said there are plenty of really interesting stars, such as bonus movement speed out of combat, and bonus riding speed.

I am also happy with the decision to not put combat enhancing stars in the green tree. As now you can put points into those interesting quality of life stars without impacting your combat ability.

I am really excited to look closer into this system.

Finally, I would like to that I am not complaining about not being able to do content with the new system, I believe you when you say 1200 CP can clear all HM's etc. What I am saying is

there shouldn't be such a discrepancy between 1200 CP and 3600 CP

Players who have a much higher CP pool will find all content way easier than players with only ~1200 CP, and in my opinion that shouldn't be the case- players who have been playing for ages want to be challenged and newer players are the ones that need the help.

Update: After the week 3 patch notes you will not need as many champion points to get optimal DPS. I think this is a good change.

I do however feel that VERY FEW players will ever have points into more than 4 slottable champion points at a time, making the concept of being able to quickly switch between champion point allocation useless.

Update: I would just like to thank ZOS for listening to feedback regarding vertical progression. I think with the newest iteration of the XP curve it is now much fairer for everyone and will make the game better as a whole.

GrumpyDuckling

Can you please put buffs into the Champion System to give builds more variety?

For example, it would be nice to have the option to spend CP to get access to a buff like Major Brutality on a Templar Archer without having to burn a 5 piece set, use a 2H, or chug potions. Thanks.

Aliyavana

What rate was the CP xp rate buffed to to accommodate the new CP cap?

merpins

It would be easier for some people to give some kind of feedback on it if all the stars and their abilities were comprehensively listed on the forum somewhere.

zvavi

there are a lot of cp's that either their text is wrong (saying that currently it gives 0 bonuses even though they are maxed) or just dont work. additionally a lot of those cp stars either cant be slotted, or dont require slotting (which seems to go against the "only 4 stars per tree" promised in the reveal).

after that, 810 cp is not nearly enough to even complete 1 proper build on the pts. we strongly need more cp unlocked (at least 1800) for dps tests.

Nebula_DooM

I must say. Hats off for Zenimax to make this one of the most interesting changes this game has seen in a while. Unfortunately the champion system is so full of new things that this will take a while to give feedback hahaha

Altyrann

After some quick testing:

- The replacement of jump points with clear stages is helpful
- It's not immediately obvious how the unlocking along branches works, could use more signposting
- Some of the values look strange at first glance (not sure if this is just tooltips or actual impacts)
- On an 810 CP template, it feels like there's lots more you'd want to spend in the blue, a little more you might want in red and almost nothing impactful at all in green, so the even split of CP to spend feels a bit off

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

sabresandiego_ESO

Are battlegrounds now cp activated? If not that’s really unfair to the bg community to not be able to enjoy the new systems that years were spent making

Gulnagel

Altyrann wrote: »

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

What did i understand you correctly that if you sit around 1000cp you will do 30k less damage than we do now with CP 1.0. So if I hit 100k i will hit 70k wumith CP 2.0?

If so this can't go live.

Sju

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Are battlegrounds now cp activated? If not that’s really unfair to the bg community to not be able to enjoy the new systems that years were spent making

Nobody is forcing you to stay in BGs, you're at fault for limiting yourself the experience.

heaven13

There are some things that are showing in the CP trees that are also purchasable skills.

• Meticulous Disassembly (CP) vs Wood Extraction (purchasable woodworking passive) have the same exact wording (and none of the other crafting skills are included as CP options). Do they stack? Are crafting passives being moved to CP and skills just haven't been reworked yet?
• Rationer (CP) vs Connoisseur and Gourmand (purchasable provisioning passive). Again, do these things stack together or will the skill point versions be removed?
  • After testing, these 2 things do stack but ONLY if you eat a new food. **Tested using artaeum, ate new food after assigning the skill points - duration increased. Then added the CP to Rationer and added to my CP bar. Duration did not increase. Ate a new food again, duration increased. So if you switch your bar to this, yes, you can stack for very long lasting food but could be an expensive mistake if you eat without having Rationer assigned to your bar. On the other hand, you can put the node on the bar, eat, then remove it and the duration stays. This is probably not working as intended, if I had to guess.
• Spirit Mastery (CP) vs Master Ritualist (templar Restoring Light passive): the cp version is even better than the templar version - 33% faster vs 20% faster (with both skillpoints). Can these stack on templars for an even faster rez? If not, are there plans to adjust the templar passive to something else?
• Infamous (CP) vs Haggling (Thieves Guild purchasable passive).
  • These two do NOT stack. I purchased the 4 skills points in Haggling. A green item went from 100g to 110g. I then added the required CP to purchase Infamous and put it on the CP bar. My green item still was only worth 110g. I went and stole a new green item with Infamous on the bar when I looted the item and then headed back to an outlaw refuge. The new green item was still only worth 110g. Respecced and removed Haggling so I would only have Infamous on the CP bar. Green items dropped back to 100g. Went and stole a new item. Still only worth 100g. So maybe these two should stack but Infamous is bugged.

katorga

Aliyavana wrote: »

What rate was the CP xp rate buffed to to accommodate the new CP cap?

That, and does it apply to already earned xp?

If I have a 1200 cp today in 1.0, will that adjust to something higher/lower with the new xp ranges for CP 2.0?

Altyrann

Gulnagel wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

Also not sure how far along the current balance pass is, but damage on a like for like (gear/skill/rotation) with what felt like sensible CP allocation was massively down on live (over 30k DPS lower)

What did i understand you correctly that if you sit around 1000cp you will do 30k less damage than we do now with CP 1.0. So if I hit 100k i will hit 70k wumith CP 2.0?

If so this can't go live.

I've not spent too long because the results look so out of line, but on my Magplar on live I consistently find damage sits at 80-85k during the beginning of a parse and rises to 90-95k by the end with BT and Radiant. So far damage seems to be sitting in the 50-60k range testing on the PTS at the beginning of the fight. It looks so far off I'm mostly fiddling with CP to see if I've missed something obvious.

Chaos2088

Liking is so far, looks way more interesting and dymanic than what we currently have.

merpins

I didn't see it, but it definitely needs a Staff/Physical Expert equivalent. If it exists, correct me please, but from what I've seen it doesn't exist and that is definitely going to hurt some players in pve. Namely me. It will hurt me lol.

Darktrox

Same, I'm dealing half my dps on CP810, lurking around to see if I missed something.

merpins

I already posted, but I have a more in-depth skill idea.

Weapon Expert. This would encompass both staff and physical weapon expert. It could be a stage-based skill, something like... "Increase damage with light and heavy attacks by 5% per stage," 10 points per stage, 50 points max so 25% increase. This is relevant because the current version increases your light/heavy attack damage by around 30% when you get it to a good point total, so if you want to nerf it, it should be 5% per stage. If you want it to be around the same damage output, 6% per stage would cap it at 30%, just like the previous skills, but if that's the case it might be wise to make it 10 points per stage and make it cap at 100 points spent.

AgentZenish

I'm a big fan of a lot of the new Crafting CP. I think there are a lot of cool interesting choices.

However, I am not a fan of putting Plentiful Harvest, and Master Gatherer behand such a massive wall of CP.

On Live, Plentiful Harvest is available at 10 CP! Master Gatherer is available at 75! It takes 310 in Green CP to achieve those same stats now. The market is already starving for mats and prices are out of control. This is a really bad change. That's not to even mention Treasure Hunter which is an additional 75 CP.

I do recognize that Plentiful Harvest has been buffed. But most 1000 CP players aren't farming mats anymore - it's lower CP players who are farming mats.

Get rid of the gatekeeping 100 CP Meticulous Disassembly. It seems more at home as a fringe star, instead of one blocking basic and key passives that players have come to expect.

And yes, you do have to completely fill up the Master Gatherer star to be equal with the gathering time on live.

Alentarlixia

Testing would be easier if I had 3600 points to distribute instead of the 810 I get when I create a new character.

Epona222

AgentZenish wrote: »

I'm a big fan of a lot of the new Crafting CP. I think there are a lot of cool interesting choices.

However, I am not a fan of putting Plentiful Harvest, and Master Gatherer behand such a massive wall of CP.

On Live, Plentiful Harvest is available at 10 CP! Master Gatherer is available at 75! It takes 310 in Green CP to achieve those same stats now. The market is already starving for mats and prices are out of control. This is a really bad change. That's not to even mention Treasure Hunter which is an additional 75 CP.

I do recognize that Plentiful Harvest has been buffed. But most 1000 CP players aren't farming mats anymore - it's lower CP players who are farming mats.

Get rid of the gatekeeping 100 CP Meticulous Disassembly. It seems more at home as a fringe star, instead of one blocking basic and key passives that players have come to expect.

And yes, you do have to completely fill up the Master Gatherer star to be equal with the gathering time on live.

Since you can get the new Plentiful Harvest to 100% chance of double drops on all nodes, I feel as though it actually SHOULD be behind a wall of CP expenditure, it shouldn't be something that every character can casually have without making sacrifices in other areas.

merpins

It looks like Thaumaturgy and Biting Aura are the same skill. Also there is no skill that increases elemental damage, or one that increases poison/physical damage which I think is an oversight.

Also here's another thing: I think putting all the tanking/damage related abilities in one tree, then limiting slotting those abilities to 4 slots is a bad decision. I see very few green abilities or red abilities that benefit damage dealers, but both lines benefit tanks and healers. I think these should be more spread out, or at possibly make it so you can equip 12 CP skills regardless of the tree.

zvavi

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It looks like Thaumaturgy and Biting Aura are the same skill. Also there is no skill that increases elemental damage, or one that increases poison/physical damage which I think is an oversight.

Also here's another thing: I think putting all the tanking/damage related abilities in one tree, then limiting slotting those abilities to 4 slots is a bad decision. I see very few green abilities or red abilities that benefit damage dealers, but both lines benefit tanks and healers. I think these should be more spread out, or at possibly make it so you can equip 12 CP skills regardless of the tree.

Green abilities are not there to benefit damage dealing. And I see a lot of red abilities benefiting damage dealing. Sustain ones. It is fine though, the choice to be made is between damage or tankiness, like it should be.

ssewallb14_ESO

Alright so I played around with this a bit.

My biggest concern off the bat is the vertical aspect might be too high, and end up creating a power gap, mainly in PvP. From what I can tell it takes about 2500 CP to max out the vertical stars while having enough CP left to fill all 4 passive slots. That's a high ladder, especially for someone brand new. While I know each star isn't quite as impactful as CP 1.0 there also are no more diminishing returns. This kind of brings back the same problem from before there was a CP cap, where at the end of the day a CP2500 will just be stronger, even if it's not by quite as muich. I was really hoping the vertical aspect would be capped much lower.

YandereGirlfriend

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Alright so I played around with this a bit.

My biggest concern off the bat is the vertical aspect might be too high, and end up creating a power gap, mainly in PvP. From what I can tell it takes about 2500 CP to max out the vertical stars while having enough CP left to fill all 4 passive slots. That's a high ladder, especially for someone brand new. While I know each star isn't quite as impactful as CP 1.0 there also are no more diminishing returns. This kind of brings back the same problem from before there was a CP cap, where at the end of the day a CP2500 will just be stronger, even if it's not by quite as muich. I was really hoping the vertical aspect would be capped much lower.

Just play non-CP? Problem solved.

merpins

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I already posted, but I have a more in-depth skill idea.

Weapon Expert. This would encompass both staff and physical weapon expert. It could be a stage-based skill, something like... "Increase damage with light and heavy attacks by 5% per stage," 10 points per stage, 50 points max so 25% increase. This is relevant because the current version increases your light/heavy attack damage by around 30% when you get it to a good point total, so if you want to nerf it, it should be 5% per stage. If you want it to be around the same damage output, 6% per stage would cap it at 30%, just like the previous skills, but if that's the case it might be wise to make it 20 points per stage and make it cap at 100 points spent.

Quoting myself, it might even be wiser to make this a passive skill. 20 pts to 100, up to somewhere in the range of 20%-30% increase. There's already so many necessary slot skills for a DPS,

Some of these include:
Untamed Aggression (165 dmg) 50 pts
Wrathful Strikes (3 dmg per point) -unknown cap-
Backstabber (15% crit dmg on backs) 50pts
Biting Aura (10% AOE dmg) 50 pts (why's there two of this skill?)
Thaumaturgy (10% AOE dmg) 50 pts (why's there two of this skill?)
Deadly Aim (10% single target dmg) 50 pts
Fighting Finesse (10% crit dmg) 50 pts
Occult Overload (4k dmg whenever kill an enemy 4m radius) 50pts
Reaving Blows (heal 7% dmg done) 50 pts

And that's only for magicka DPS. This means you gotta already choose AOE or single target when specing for a character which is unfortunate, then probably be like... Wrathful Strikes + Untamed Aggression + Deadly Aim + Fighting Finesse or Occult Overload. Occult Overload might be better than Untamed Aggression though depending, not sure (though 4m radius is laughably small so it might not be useful at all).

Adding in a "Weapon Expert" skill is something that might facilitate a necessity. But it would be something everyone would slot due to it being useful for all builds (tanks, healers, and dps). So making it passive, due to the really small pool that we can slot, might be better than making it slottable. OR. Put it in the red skill tree rather than the blue one.

Ratzkifal

I like that stealth and detection have been added as options to invest in in CP2.0, which opens up the stealth game to anyone who enjoys it while allowing people to also intentionally counter stealth in PvP if they so wish.

But on a related note, and because there doesn't seem to be a official feedback thread for it, I feel like Bosmer should get their 3m of stealth back instead of detection for several reasons (lore, gameplay, habit of 25 years of stealth, more options) and with the new avenue for people to obtain detection without giving up on a set through CP, nobody would lose anything that mattered to them.
One reason why stealth as a racial passive is better than detection is because stealth is proactive while detection is reactive. If there is no enemy in stealth, like it is the case in all of PvE, then detection is meaningless while stealth has its uses in both PvP and PvE (if you just want to get that skyshard without getting trouble for example). That's why stealth is more suitable as a racial passive.

Darktrox

Good sustain changes tho, I loved that. Stamden here.

Grandma

related to the XP curve and optimization math of needing about 1700 to be as effective as 810 is now, with mid 2k being ideal and 3.6k being literally impossible for 99.9999% of the population-

could we get an actual clear tangible answer on what kind of stuff was play tested with the new CP (which btw on the PTS does not work half the time and is buggy, so how did they test with it..?)? Were your hardcore groups able to clear gryphon heart and godslayer with the same effort required now with the new cp without being cp 3600?

Arkhaniir

UI/UX Related:

1-) With a single constellation having a lot higher number of perks now, I am having difficulties seeing where everything is. The Stars mix with the background, I can't see the Lines connecting the Stars very well and when everything is unlocked its just a bowl of +/- signs with numbers. This makes unlocking higher perks or laying out a plan quite difficult since I can't see the full picture properly. A minimalistic visuals toggle of sorts would be greatly appreciated for anyone having trouble with it visually.


2-) The "Current Bonus" indicator does not update until you "Confirm" your points which feels counter intuitive. My immediate instinct is to see that value change with the Points (Or Stages in new cases).


Otherwise I am loving this so far. The new perks are very focused and I like that. This will allow me to try out further non-meta weird builds. Testing continues.