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What have you done to weaving?
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Jolsyf✭✭✭I think those threads are becoming more of a ppl who weave vs people who don't... It will be fixed liking or not2 -
Zeromaz✭✭✭✭I took a 3 month break, hoping that this patch would make me enjoy again with new theorycrafting. But once again it is worse then before with this weaving. So much hope for so many years while the game is just slowly downgrading... very sad.
This could not be more accurate. I feel the only reason the population is what it is, is because people are still hoping the game developers will start making the right decisions. So much potential, yet every time there is a choice to be made... seems to always be the wrong one3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »Instead, what you want is the unfair advantage you get when up against a player who hasn't discovered it yet. Its not a real mechanic, its an accident/oversight, and no-where in the game is it mentioned or taught.
1- LA weaving and canceling the animation is taught in-game via level advisor tips. ZOS literally built a whole new leveling up advisor tutorial system and included teaching LA canceling in it.
2- Same tip is also taught / shown in load screen tips
3- Devs have stated multiple times this is now an intended feature. The latest affirmation being on page 2 of this very same thread from Gina.
Let us not forget there are skills that rely on weaving basic attacks such as crushing weapon. There are sets that encourage weaving basic attacks as well.
Weaving basic attacks into skills is the most basic, and easiest, form of animation canceling we have in the game. With a little bit of practice, anyone can get pretty good at weaving a medium attack into a skill. To be consistent with a LA takes a little more practice.6 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
It doesn’t seem to be intended, per the patch notes. They endorsed animation cancelling years ago and even put it in a loading screen tooltip. This is much more likely to be a launch day bug than a surprise reversal of that policy.
They actually endorsed animation cancelling because they couldnt fix it. Not because it was designed that way from the start.
I wasn't there and don't know anyone at ZOS, so obviously I don't know what and how it happened and what was going on in their heads. But the impression I got from the quotes I read about it were that, no, AC wasn't designed that way from the start, but it was endorsed/embraced after the fact because they liked it, not because they couldn't figure out how to fix it. But my interpretation of their comments might be wrong.
The best analogy I can think of is from the history of the Moog synthesizer. IIRC, the story goes that the guy who was tasked with making the filter for the synth, or maybe just one particular electrical component for the filter, got the specs wrong by a factor of (I think) 10 due to misreading a diagram or whatever, with the result that the filter didn't just filter out the frequencies beyond the cutoff level, it greatly emphasized the frequencies at the cutoff level. When everyone realized what had happened, the other members of the team were like, "No! Don't fix it! Leave it like that!" because they thought the filter resonance was so cool. It wasn't intended by design, but it was a serendipitous mistake that was wholeheartedly embraced afterward.
I got the impression that the programming "mistake" that led to AC was kind of like that-- a serendipitous accident. But like I said, my takeaway from the quotes I read might be wrong.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!3 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Maybe the weavers union went on strike for higher pay and better looms
it could happen
2 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's lag. The animation canceling works fine for me, though my main attack skill on my main is Elemental Weapon.0 -
Jolsyf✭✭✭MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »It's lag. The animation canceling works fine for me, though my main attack skill on my main is Elemental Weapon.
Yes, its lag that numerous people are complaining and even got akowledged as a bug by zenimax staff, but hey its working for you so everyone else must be lagging.
If you actually use an ranged build and weave you would notice4 -
asuitandtyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hey everyone, wanted to let you know this change is not intentional and it's being looked into. Thanks for the reports and information.
Right now the people who hate animation canceling are willfully forgetting this post ever existed.
It's fine, I guess. It'll be around long enough for me to do get through the Markarth quests. And then, I can shelf it again and go throw my life at Beyond Light.1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Eh, we all know I'm not the best at anything. But I went to Hew's Bane to do a master writ, and.... having not been there in DOG'S ages, I walked into three giant scorps - on my warden... without the bear. So.... rolling eyes.... I - actually managed to kill them in less than three seconds.
That has never happened before in my entire history in this game. So.... I don't know what's going on, but hey.... I'm not complaining! I like it, but I'm pretty sure I'm alone in that.0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
That would be a total waste of resources for something that only takes 10 acrobatics.
Look up the definition of exploit in gaming.
Regardless of Zeni's acceptance of the mechanic later on, or simply even them viewing it as part of the game entirely, just the mere fact that it was an unintended, and unexpected side effect in the original design, indeed DOES make it an exploit.
I mean is this really that hard to understand? We all speak English here, right? 😂
It's honestly shocking how many of you are failing to simply admit that it's an exploit. I don't even dare guess what the reasons may be.
OR
You people are so insanely worried and angry about the issue that you're missing my point entirely.
Quick Google:In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers
Also, be my guest and let's call it a leap. After all Fleas can jump 220 times their own body length and 150 times their own body height and yet they don't go very far!
You have added the phrase “in the original design.” You are changing the definition of exploit to suit your argument.
That’s equivocation.
It's not because it's still Zenimax who have changed their mind about it.
I really appreciate your effort to try to justify the mechanic as I'm personally an abuser of it as well.
However, it still is and always will be a bug.
🙃3 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hey everyone, wanted to let you know this change is not intentional and it's being looked into. Thanks for the reports and information.
The issues with some of the skills (like degeneration) were reported 4 weeks ago, you didn't acknowledge it and now you gonna work on fix cuz it is even worse? Why do we need pts if you cannot even work on reported bugs/don't give a F about them?12 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
It makes next to no impact in PvP unless you have built for it with ele weapon etc... I do it, but I don't see it would impact my effectiveness if I stopped.Edited by relentless_turnip on November 3, 2020 8:18AM1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.9 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Are you part of ZoS design team or QA team? Because I'd think only they get to define and acknowledge bugs and exploits.However, it still is and always will be a bug.
🙃Edited by LashanW on November 3, 2020 11:22AM---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach14 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
I think good solution would be to slightly increase overland difficulty so ppl need to use heal even once during quest boss fight or roll dodge or block. Also introducing some kind of training ground would be benefit (wow did that i think in MoP, there is a place where players can learn what AoE is, how to use some particular skills, how to choose which enemy should be attacked first etc). Basically creating learning tools and the need to use them. Currently if you want to learn how to be good in ESO you are forced to use external platforms like YouTube as game is lacking at that departmentEdited by Czekoludek on November 3, 2020 11:52AM4 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
They said long ago they wanted people to be able to abandon (cancel) an attack in order to block or dodge, but did not intend for that to extend into being able to cancel part of of attack in order to squeeze in another attack.
But the light attack cancelling was unable to be dealt with AT THAT TIME because it was too tied into the cancelling that was intended.
Thus, the light attack cancelling was unintended, but has been tolerated.
That was years ago. Plenty of time for the coders to have been working on untangling the desired block/dodge canceling from the unintended attack canceling.
You may be ignorant of the changes that have happened since they were forced to tolerate the bug, but the shield that appears during blocking was implemented as well as the change in when that shield appears.
It’s not hard to see a time when attack canceling has been successfully untangled from the rest and is able to be stomped flat like the bug it is.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on November 3, 2020 1:49PMXbox NA2 -
pink_panther✭✭✭Just revert la changes it was fine before.
Won't play until combat feels good again.0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are boss mechanics that require you to suddenly abandon your attack in order to dodge or block.
There are no mechanics that require you to suddenly start a second attack while another has not yet completed.
In fact, fixing that bug may well be the single most effective change that would lower the ceiling of power-creep without any change to content whatsoever.Xbox NA5 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Glad to see ZOS confirming that the current malfunction with LA weaving isn't intended. Hopefully a hotfix can be applied asap.
Kinda sad and cringe to see all the "animation cancelling is an exploit" crowd however....12 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭dont forget they change the cool down of all weapon attacks (la,ma,ha) to 700ms so if ur trying to do 2 la's in a sec ant going to happenMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are boss mechanics that require you to suddenly abandon your attack in order to dodge or block.
There are no mechanics that require you to suddenly start a second attack while another has not yet completed.
In fact, fixing that bug may well be the single most effective change that would lower the ceiling of power-creep without any change to content whatsoever.
There is no need to bring the ceiling down because light attack weaving is the easiest form of adding more damage.
There would be no need to ever nerf content to increase completion rate if the game taught things better.
Anyone can learn to weave in less than 20 minutes even less if you rebind light attacks to mousewheel and just roll it while pressing your regular skills like you always did.
Demanding to nerf everyone just so you don't have to invest those 20min is just selfish.6 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
for every example of yours of someone obviously playing badly, there are more people who are actualy trying, but cannot manage to execute the timing anyways. who are taking care with their gear, making sure to level the right skills, attempt the rotation.
DLC dungeons have been getting progressively harder and harder even on normal - in fact, most DLC dungeons feel harder on normal then half the vanilla dungeons feel on VET. same applies to trials. this is NOT an accident.
maybe its becasue you are so used to weaving you are not even realizing it, but even while practicing - the disparity is immense. its not as obvious when you are still leveling, but it is GLARING at max level. yes it makes that much of a difference. no just practicing and optimizing is not enough. when I see my SO who is a MUCH better player then I am, who has done practicing on a dummy for a fair bit, whose dps is about 30kish when we duo dungeons together, who has been pvping in multiple games - get frustrated because he sees people fire off attacks so rapidly that he cannot counter them even with practice, when he cannot execute the same even with practice (and i don't just mean dummy either, he's done quite a lot of dueling just to get more into the groove of movement, etc)? I can only look at your assertion and wonder if you are deliberately blind to problems, or just really that oblivious? the timing required is so precise that it is OBSENE to require players to practice to that degree just to be able to measure up - this is not a gorram job. and because the ceiling is high, expectations are also high, minimum requirements are high. and it keeps getting worse.
and no, raising light attack damage is not going to help the floor. raising light attack damage is what created current situation in a first place. raising the damage of skills might help more. removing ability to cancel light attack animations, while still allowing them to fire? might help as well. you'll still be able to "weave" and you'll still be able to block, dodge, etc you just won't be able to double up your attacks within the same GCD and you will have to chose whether to land damage, or avoid damage, NOT both at the same time. normalizing buffs to reduce stacking, might help as well.
but we do not want this. reality is, players at the top or even close to it, WANT the ceiling to be that high, WANT the gap to be that high. since I cannot be charitable when it comes to why I think that is, I leave it to you to admit to yourself as to why.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***5 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
I think good solution would be to slightly increase overland difficulty so ppl need to use heal even once during quest boss fight or roll dodge or block. Also introducing some kind of training ground would be benefit (wow did that i think in MoP, there is a place where players can learn what AoE is, how to use some particular skills, how to choose which enemy should be attacked first etc). Basically creating learning tools and the need to use them. Currently if you want to learn how to be good in ESO you are forced to use external platforms like YouTube as game is lacking at that department
I... already have to do that and do actualy do that. because my burst is not so high as to be able to avoid it. I've noticed something frustrating about whenever i go look up dungeon mechanics and read specifically alqast's writeups. and I do not blame him for missing these things, because he plays at his level, so he only sees mechanics at that lever of damage, but his writeups always ALWAYS are missing some minor yet crucial if you are not a dps god mechanics. ALWAYS. something that i would encounter and try to look up if someone else figured out how to deal with.. and yet he didn't even realize it was there. so much of the direction is "just burn through this phase" or "just heal through this phase" and nothing to help with how to deal with it if you cannot just brute force your way past it. and there usually ARE ways. sometimes i figure them out by accident.
I have to heal and block and interrupt, etc even in overland, because my dps is not high enough to burst down mobs before they have a chance to execute their mechanics. and its worse then I play on account that doesn't have maxed cp (or when i forget to distribute aforementioned CP, or when i play on an alt that I decided NOT to send a full set of crafted gear to and instead using quest rewards as i get them) so how much harder are we talking here?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Xuhora✭✭✭✭✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
DLC dungeons have been getting progressively harder and harder even on normal - in fact, most DLC dungeons feel harder on normal then half the vanilla dungeons feel on VET. same applies to trials. this is NOT an accident.
I am sorry, but this statement simply is not true, its the opposite! DLC Dungeons are getting easier. Back in the day when Imperial City was released we bit our teeth out on the first boss of either prison or tower, there was no explenation of the required mechanics beforhand thought through the dungeon itself as it is the "state of the art" today in DLC dungeons. the game tells you the needed mechanics with a little examplesituation BEFORE you need to execute them in a bossfight. The developers are quiet frankly trying to teach what is expected, and they are doing a good job at it.
edit to elaborate further:
Since they teach you the mechanics, it does not matter how much DPS you are able to pull. you should know the mechanics, so it does not matter how long you are in the fight. further there are very few dmg checks in this dungeons either (i can only think of the ghost wall from the endboss of Depths of Malathar)
Edited by Xuhora on November 3, 2020 12:28PM4 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
for every example of yours of someone obviously playing badly, there are more people who are actualy trying, but cannot manage to execute the timing anyways. who are taking care with their gear, making sure to level the right skills, attempt the rotation.
DLC dungeons have been getting progressively harder and harder even on normal - in fact, most DLC dungeons feel harder on normal then half the vanilla dungeons feel on VET. same applies to trials. this is NOT an accident.
maybe its becasue you are so used to weaving you are not even realizing it, but even while practicing - the disparity is immense. its not as obvious when you are still leveling, but it is GLARING at max level. yes it makes that much of a difference. no just practicing and optimizing is not enough. when I see my SO who is a MUCH better player then I am, who has done practicing on a dummy for a fair bit, whose dps is about 30kish when we duo dungeons together, who has been pvping in multiple games - get frustrated because he sees people fire off attacks so rapidly that he cannot counter them even with practice, when he cannot execute the same even with practice (and i don't just mean dummy either, he's done quite a lot of dueling just to get more into the groove of movement, etc)? I can only look at your assertion and wonder if you are deliberately blind to problems, or just really that oblivious? the timing required is so precise that it is OBSENE to require players to practice to that degree just to be able to measure up - this is not a gorram job. and because the ceiling is high, expectations are also high, minimum requirements are high. and it keeps getting worse.
and no, raising light attack damage is not going to help the floor. raising light attack damage is what created current situation in a first place. raising the damage of skills might help more. removing ability to cancel light attack animations, while still allowing them to fire? might help as well. you'll still be able to "weave" and you'll still be able to block, dodge, etc you just won't be able to double up your attacks within the same GCD and you will have to chose whether to land damage, or avoid damage, NOT both at the same time. normalizing buffs to reduce stacking, might help as well.
but we do not want this. reality is, players at the top or even close to it, WANT the ceiling to be that high, WANT the gap to be that high. since I cannot be charitable when it comes to why I think that is, I leave it to you to admit to yourself as to why.
Thing is, for mag light attacks will be 20-25% of your overall dps. My magplar pulls 82K on the dummy, 22% of that light attack damage (=18K), so total damage from skills is 64K. Why can't non-weaving players do this harder content again?6 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Czekoludek wrote: »mustangmorgan31 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
well said
i agree with you and so do many of usTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »Nice! I might actually play the game now if this is intended.
Have fun playing on your own
Pretty damn sure there have always been more posts and requests to "nerf" animation cancelling over the years, than there were to support it.
So... not really.
Pretty damn sure bad players want everything that kills them nerfed or removed so we shouldn’t be catering to these people.
Animation Canceling is a Bug, an exploit and if you rely an exploit to get kills then do you even have any actual skills?
very true, i might begin to enjoy the game now as the developers intended.
right now eso is game glitch dependent and it has destroyed the game for many of us.
if they are going to fix it like this then i and many others will be very happy and able to play and enjoy the game.
How does light attack weaving being removed help you enjoy the game? Either you weave or you don't. How does other players weaving affect you as a player? it doesn't.
it does actualy in couple of ways.
1. it raises the dps ceiling to the poitn where ZoS starts designing content with assumption of weaving, making that content not doable for someone who does not
2. in pvp - you cannot compete at all. unless you start going for cheesy proc sets - which you all promptly complain about.
that said, as seen above, they are not changing it so you can sleep easy.
1. The only content built around the ceiling is the tippy top content that only the ceiling runs, ie vet trials, vet HM trials, vet DLC dungeons, vet HM DLC dungeons, etc. Everything else can be done with as little as 20k DPS, because all that content was designed when 30k DPS was the ceiling, and Zenimax has never gone back and buffed old content (in fact they've nerfed that content). Heavy attack builds, which are still slower than even non-weaving builds, can hit that easily with practice.
2. People are able to compete with builds that use the wrong type of weapons, ie a melee weapon on a magicka build, and still absolutely slaughter people, despite light attacks hitting for a third of what they normally would, at most. You're not losing out on much damage with light attack weaving, provided you know your combos and practice them.
Notice how I said "practice" in both cases, because that is the real culprit behind the skill gap. It's not due to animation cancelling or whatever everyone against animation cancelling says, it's due to the floor simply not knowing how to properly play the game.
Removing or even nerfing animation cancelling is only going to lower the ceiling, the floor won't move at all unless the nerfs to the ceiling are accompanied with buffs to the floor, which, as I've said in the past, the floor is so clueless that Zenimax would have to buff everything to move their damage even slightly.
For every guy who just spams light attacks, there's another guy who's just spamming Wrecking Blow over and over, another just spamming Snipe, and a fourth guy using a destruction staff in heavy armour on an orc with half his points into health and the rest split between magicka/stamina.
Removing weaving but flatly buffing light attacks will only help the first guy, buffing skills will only help the second and third guys, and making hybrids equal to dedicated stat builds will only help the fourth guy. The only way to buff all 4 of them is to buff everything, but at that point you're gonna be raising the floor, which can take advantage of the buffs way better since they more effectively make use of everything that got buffed, which goes against what you set out to do to begin with.
The only way to truly raise the floor is to encourage them to replace their existing playstyles with more effective ones, which I can guarantee will anger them since it goes against the "play how you want" mantra. Unfortunately, this is the only true solution to the skill gap, anything else is just going to hurt them.
I think good solution would be to slightly increase overland difficulty so ppl need to use heal even once during quest boss fight or roll dodge or block. Also introducing some kind of training ground would be benefit (wow did that i think in MoP, there is a place where players can learn what AoE is, how to use some particular skills, how to choose which enemy should be attacked first etc). Basically creating learning tools and the need to use them. Currently if you want to learn how to be good in ESO you are forced to use external platforms like YouTube as game is lacking at that department
I... already have to do that and do actualy do that. because my burst is not so high as to be able to avoid it. I've noticed something frustrating about whenever i go look up dungeon mechanics and read specifically alqast's writeups. and I do not blame him for missing these things, because he plays at his level, so he only sees mechanics at that lever of damage, but his writeups always ALWAYS are missing some minor yet crucial if you are not a dps god mechanics. ALWAYS. something that i would encounter and try to look up if someone else figured out how to deal with.. and yet he didn't even realize it was there. so much of the direction is "just burn through this phase" or "just heal through this phase" and nothing to help with how to deal with it if you cannot just brute force your way past it. and there usually ARE ways. sometimes i figure them out by accident.
I have to heal and block and interrupt, etc even in overland, because my dps is not high enough to burst down mobs before they have a chance to execute their mechanics. and its worse then I play on account that doesn't have maxed cp (or when i forget to distribute aforementioned CP, or when i play on an alt that I decided NOT to send a full set of crafted gear to and instead using quest rewards as i get them) so how much harder are we talking here?
Hard to believe when two-three overland mobs do damage equals to your health recovery if you are not a vampire and in medium armor (that's not an exaggeration). Most quest bosses have around 100-250k hp and with 20k single target dps you need 5-12s to kill them. If they don't do any mechanic that requires you to break free (most don't) then there is almost no boss from overland quest that will manage to kill you in that time. 20k is not damage god, you can achieve that with one bar, green magicka items sorc with two skills.
Maybe you meant world bosses, a lot of them should be a little harder but the increase of difficulty won't be as dramatic as quest bosses/mobs3 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are boss mechanics that require you to suddenly abandon your attack in order to dodge or block.
There are no mechanics that require you to suddenly start a second attack while another has not yet completed.
In fact, fixing that bug may well be the single most effective change that would lower the ceiling of power-creep without any change to content whatsoever.
There is no need to bring the ceiling down because light attack weaving is the easiest form of adding more damage.
There would be no need to ever nerf content to increase completion rate if the game taught things better.
Anyone can learn to weave in less than 20 minutes even less if you rebind light attacks to mousewheel and just roll it while pressing your regular skills like you always did.
Demanding to nerf everyone just so you don't have to invest those 20min is just selfish.
You’re depending on light attack cancelling for your extra damage. That’s not the same as weaving.
LA canceling is about how fast you push buttons. Weaving is about which buttons you push.
And Zos has been saying for a long time that they want to lower the ceiling.Xbox NA0 -
Azmodan✭✭
You’re depending on light attack cancelling for your extra damage. That’s not the same as weaving.
LA canceling is about how fast you push buttons. Weaving is about which buttons you push.
And Zos has been saying for a long time that they want to lower the ceiling.
"Weaving is the term being used by players of The Elder Scrolls Online for cancelling an animation, in order to speed up a rotation" @Alcast
https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/0
