Why no love for Templar?

Drdeath20

Langeston wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Want to compare the entire toolkit?

Puncturing Sweep > Swallow Soul and Concealed Weapon
Crescent Sweep > Soul Harvest
Toppling Charge > Lotus Fan
Radiant Oppression > Impale
Nova > Consuming Darkness (which I have literally never seen used)

Are you another non-Templar? It really doesn't help having non-Templars enter this conversation. Rather, you should make a forum post about NBs and try to get buffs for your character choice. But since you want to compare apples and oranges.

Punc Sweep is a channel, which puts a snare on the Templar. We also must be within melee range to get any benefit of heals. Swallow soul is instant and allows you to keep your distance. Concealed Weapon is also instant and gives you mega-speed in stealth. A Templar cannot stealth. They have no mobility in their toolkit.

Toppling charge is a wonderful skill. But you also have a Stun and Off-balance with Concealed Weapon. You know, the skill that gives you mega-speed? Lotus Fan is aoe and also causes all enemies to take 8% more damage. You would be better off comparing Lotus Fan to Explosive charge. They are more similar. But even Explosive charge doesn't cause enemies to take 8% more damage.

Radiant Oppression is a channel. Puts a snare on the caster. It isn't instant like Impale. Radiant also doesn't tick as soon as it hits. It should, but it doesn't. It's delayed. So we are often not able to deal the damage we need before the enemy gets out of execute range. It isn't dodgeable which some might say makes it better than Impale. But again, it takes time to start dealing dmg. So I've heard others say that Impale might be better. At least Impale allows you to be mobile.

Why compare Nova and Consuming Darkness? Are they what you would compare? Why not compare it with Soul Tether? That might be a better comparison. Is that because of the Major Protection? I'm not saying that Consuming Darkness is a good skill. But why compare to a Templar's toolkit? Why not create a forum post trying to improve the NBs toolkit?

Please go back and look at my initial post (or read it below), then read the thread. My only assertion was that Magblade is not a "Ferrari" in PVP, and as far as I was concerned that was the end of it. However other people jumped in, and as you'll see, any comparison of apples & oranges was introduced into the conversation by them — I was simply responding to those [one-sided and inaccurate] comparisons.

If you want to say templar needs a buff, fine. In fact, I agree. However saying it is bottom tier in every regard ignores reality, so if you intend to do that, be prepared to be called out on it. Magblade and Magcro are both in worse positions as it pertains to PVP, and have been for quite a while. That is not a particularly controversial statement to most people.

Langeston wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you are talking about PVE here. If that's the case, then I think you're comparing apples & oranges because I'm fairly certain that @Mayrael is focused on PVP. While your post may be correct with regards to PVE, nearly everything in it is inapplicable (or even wrong) in PVP.

For all I know magblade may indeed be a Ferrari in PVE, but they're a 1983 Dodge Omni in PVP.

But would you agree that magblades are the Ferrari of damage dealers?

Langeston

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Want to compare the entire toolkit?

Puncturing Sweep > Swallow Soul and Concealed Weapon
Crescent Sweep > Soul Harvest
Toppling Charge > Lotus Fan
Radiant Oppression > Impale
Nova > Consuming Darkness (which I have literally never seen used)

Are you another non-Templar? It really doesn't help having non-Templars enter this conversation. Rather, you should make a forum post about NBs and try to get buffs for your character choice. But since you want to compare apples and oranges.

Punc Sweep is a channel, which puts a snare on the Templar. We also must be within melee range to get any benefit of heals. Swallow soul is instant and allows you to keep your distance. Concealed Weapon is also instant and gives you mega-speed in stealth. A Templar cannot stealth. They have no mobility in their toolkit.

Toppling charge is a wonderful skill. But you also have a Stun and Off-balance with Concealed Weapon. You know, the skill that gives you mega-speed? Lotus Fan is aoe and also causes all enemies to take 8% more damage. You would be better off comparing Lotus Fan to Explosive charge. They are more similar. But even Explosive charge doesn't cause enemies to take 8% more damage.

Radiant Oppression is a channel. Puts a snare on the caster. It isn't instant like Impale. Radiant also doesn't tick as soon as it hits. It should, but it doesn't. It's delayed. So we are often not able to deal the damage we need before the enemy gets out of execute range. It isn't dodgeable which some might say makes it better than Impale. But again, it takes time to start dealing dmg. So I've heard others say that Impale might be better. At least Impale allows you to be mobile.

Why compare Nova and Consuming Darkness? Are they what you would compare? Why not compare it with Soul Tether? That might be a better comparison. Is that because of the Major Protection? I'm not saying that Consuming Darkness is a good skill. But why compare to a Templar's toolkit? Why not create a forum post trying to improve the NBs toolkit?

Please go back and look at my initial post (or read it below), then read the thread. My only assertion was that Magblade is not a "Ferrari" in PVP, and as far as I was concerned that was the end of it. However other people jumped in, and as you'll see, any comparison of apples & oranges was introduced into the conversation by them — I was simply responding to those [one-sided and inaccurate] comparisons.

If you want to say templar needs a buff, fine. In fact, I agree. However saying it is bottom tier in every regard ignores reality, so if you intend to do that, be prepared to be called out on it. Magblade and Magcro are both in worse positions as it pertains to PVP, and have been for quite a while. That is not a particularly controversial statement to most people.

Langeston wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you are talking about PVE here. If that's the case, then I think you're comparing apples & oranges because I'm fairly certain that @Mayrael is focused on PVP. While your post may be correct with regards to PVE, nearly everything in it is inapplicable (or even wrong) in PVP.

For all I know magblade may indeed be a Ferrari in PVE, but they're a 1983 Dodge Omni in PVP.

But would you agree that magblades are the Ferrari of damage dealers?

That depends on what you are talking about.

If you're talking about PVE, I would defer to the people who actually know about that — I am not one of them. (From what I gather though, they are at or near the top as far as PVE DPS is concerned.)

However with regard to PVP I would very strongly disagree. No delayed burst, no viable AOE abilities, only one viable [relatively weak] DOT, most of the toolkit is dodgable and/or reflectable with long travel times, and the burst combo is incredibly telegraphed.

There's also the fact that magblade's inherent squishiness and poor healing doesn't allow it to consistently apply pressure like other classes unless you build for tankiness, in which case you lose a lot of damage relative to those other classes that have inherent tankiness and healing.

This vast difference in performance between PVE & PVP is why I made the distinction in the first place.

Cinbri

Langeston wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[snip]

I won't search for exact patch numbers but I will do so if forced to, this is just last few patches.
Living dark/Unstable core overbuff;
Ritual being cleanse, soft cc, damage and heal tool at the same time while twisting path was nerfed because of being damage and healing skill at the same time;
PoTL/Purifying Light being bugged (in favor of templars) for very long.
Templars as the only ones evading cast time on burst ult.

Many of those things were balanced after some time bringing templars more in line with vanilla classes, that's true, but please stop overreacting.

This patch minor/major tweaks we can see for magblades bring only nerfs, while templars now get unique (very easy) access to minor sorcery, minor breach and all 3 minor recovery's which all got buffed.

Are templars top class? For sure no! Are they bottom class? No way.

[snip] Most peoples recovery is around 500-900. Even if you took 20% of that, its still an awful number. Yahoo my recovery goes up a little but only if i slot repentance and have it front bar'd.

I stopped playing my magplar entirely a few patches ago to play a magblade. It was like switching from a Toyota to a Ferrari. Ranged spammable that is a HoT, shade, options on builds depending on group (cripple for the cheap DoT vs lotus fan for the minor vulnerability), unique buffs in reave and 20% additional damage for 6 seconds after using incap. Nice luxury for also having the strongest burst skill in the game (merciless bow proc). On a test dummy i can get some bow procs around 90k. Works swimmingly with impale too. Pretty easy rotation just count to 4 and light attack bow proc, and the best part it gets easier during execute. The hardest part is managing your potions to best serve your ultimate generation.

At this point i could care less about templars. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you are talking about PVE here. If that's the case, then I think you're comparing apples & oranges because I'm fairly certain that @Mayrael is focused on PVP. While your post may be correct with regards to PVE, nearly everything in it is inapplicable (or even wrong) in PVP.

For all I know magblade may indeed be a Ferrari in PVE, but they're a 1983 Dodge Omni in PVP.

While magblade is still better for solo 1vx than a magplar.

Shadow Image gives so much outplay potential while fighting outnumbered in resource/keep tower, while magplar can only block cast honor the dead and mistform as defense options (which both sucks), darkflare has a hard cast time to land and backlash requires 6 second damage build up which keeps you vulnerable while jabbing and also hits like wet noodle for 2-3k.

Not saying that magblade is perfect, but it does have more outplay potential for solo play than a magplar and is more well rounded class, magplar is only "decent" in group play and "decent" in dueling, but since stonethorn patch changes it really dropped 1 tier down for both dueling and group play.

And if you don't agree, look around at stonethorn pvp tier class for both CP and NO CP, both magplar and stamplar is at bottom tier.

I mostly play BGs at this point and templars are definitely stronger than Magblades in that setting. There's a reason that Magblades are nearly non-existent in high MMR BGs whereas there's still a good number of magplars and stamplars. Stamblades I see more frequently than I used to, but I can go literally days without seeing another magblade in a BG. Magblades are nice because of Shadowy Disguise & Shade, but aside from escaping/repositioning, everything else I can think of off the top of my head is better on a magplar.

I disagree with your assertion that magblade is more well rounded. It's easy to only use class abilities on a magplar, while that's nearly impossible to do on a magblade. (On my current magblade build I have to use 6 non-class abilities to round out the NB toolkit — my magplar build doesn't require any.)

As far as ''outplay potential," you seem to be talking about juking & evading — if that's the case I agree. However if a decent magplar comes across an equally decent magblade in open world or a BG, chances are the magplar wins or the magblade escapes. I don't really consider that a win.

As far as tier lists, to be honest I don't put a whole lot of stock in them at this point. So far, in nearly every one I've come across where the rationale was explained, they seemed pretty biased to me. Regardless, can you link to which ones you are referring to?

If we are talking bgs i hope you know that magplar self healing is pretty trash, on top of that without procsets that class has no offensive pressure.
Last update they pretty much neutered the entire templar offensive toolkit, and it takes time for people to realise how bad the class is.
As for seeing more magplars than magblades, i play in high mmr bgs on pc eu and neither are very well represented atm, and even fewer stamplars.
The class just doesnt bring anything to bgs outside of providing purify syenergy every so often.
Right now wardens /nightblades(well stamblades anyway) and sorcs(both stam and mag) are probably the most often seen ones, with quite a few dks as well(leap is a fantastic tool for bgs).
And there is a good reason for that.

If you think magplar's offensive toolkit is bad, imagine if literally all of it were dodgeable. (Most magblade abilites are reflectable too.) There are BGs where feel like the only thing I see the entire match is "DODGE DODGE DODGE" — combat text might as well be turned off. Now that I think about it, this is likely almost the entire reason magblade overperforms in PVE vs PVP — mobs don't roll dodge a whole lot.

I'm not saying Magplar is top tier right now or anything, but better self healing paired with the fact that it's burst combo is nearly entirely undodgable is a huge advantage over a magblade's truly abysmal self healing & 100% dodgable burst combo. With the exception of mobility skills, magplars just have stronger and/or more reliable versions nearly every magblade ability, and in many cases there's just no comparison. The stun on Toppling Charge is huge and that alone makes it much better than Lotus fan, Sweeps does more damage and heals for more than Swallow Soul/Concealed Weapon, Radiant Oppression is much easier to land and can do much more damage than Impale (which I don't even bother to slot), I have nothing that compares to Javelin so I'm forced to use Flame Clench which is absolute garbage by comparison, Purifying Light & Merciless are difficult to compare but PL is definitely more reliable and thus in the long run likely does a lot more damage...the list goes on. I also cannot overstate how nice it is to not be forced to use a resto staff on my back bar. It's literally a game changer.

Don't get me wrong: Shade & Cloak are definitely strong, and they are so much fun — they're almost the entire reason I love playing magblade — but magplar simply has a stronger, more cohesive toolkit than magblade. I kind of feel like the class is incomplete and I have to piece my build together from scraps.

As far as class representation in high MMR BGs, apparently PC NA is apparently to EU, however we also have a ton of stam necros as well.

Just use bit of logic instead of feelings.
1. Offensive toolkit: nb atleast have toolkit.
A. First of all nb didnt suffered from its entire skillines were blatantly nerfed by "dot nerf" because class was always burst. While templar was similarly to dk - playable by stacking dots yet unlike dk he didnt recieved 33% passive boost to damage. On top of that 90% of nb toolkit is not hardcountered by evasion buff that literally every stam build use.
33% less damage on allmost all skills and on top additional 25% reductuon not even near as fair as trade for undodgeable.
B. You have range spammable that apply strong hot. Fact it being ranged and hot by default making it super strong booster of defense because you can easily spam it at range without endangering yourself into melee and this require to waste less gcd on defense, HoT grant even bigger survivability as it keep ticking even when you ended your dps rotation snd went defensive mode.
Meanwhile templar spammable is melee that byitself apply higher risk of incoming damage and unlike ranged spammable it literally unable to land on any high mobile target that literally every stam build coz it being channel. Yes, it cant be dodged on paper but on practice it means it also cant even connect its full 4 ticks on any target that is not target dummy. I posted back in time quite a few gifs showing how hard jabs desyncing literally not be able to hit target inside hitbox. Its apply heal not hot so as soon as you going defensive, and you will go defensive in melee range alot coz templar simply dont have proactive defense - it stop providing its defensive capability. And when nb Surprise Attack got rulebreaking buff to stun people simply coz nb addicted to some old bug, templars Sweeps heal got nerfhamnered while zos just saying that they will monitoring how class will perform. This turned theoretical strength of sweeps to get at least nice heal against stacked group unexisting.
C. Burst skill - apart from spammable you need either strong-hitting dots or burst heal and nb atleast does have strong burst skill. It not as good as p2w blastbones or shalks but at least it there.
Meanwhile templar has no choice. Like I mentioned before its entire dot kit that was main damage source got blatantly nerfed. And on top of it its burst got neutered too.
Burning Light "change" you can see in main thread how it killed passive in pvp.
Backlash got killed too, you also can read its problems i posted i think in this thread, when burst skill deal like 1k damage because zos decided for some unknown reason simply kill it.
D. CCs - once again nb atleast have roots or aoe cc, they got nerfed too to promote p2w classes, but still better than nothing.
Meanwhile templar lost its aoe snare and unjustly lost its root; only root remained within Unstable Core that noone use coz it horribly bugged skill and despite i detsily reporting it for over year now - not a single fix for this skill. So now templar sit in situation where melee spec cant even control opponent movement simply because forum whiners became unhappy that templar suddenly could decrease their mobility by Eclipse.

2. Defensive toolkit: not gona bother write wall of text again, will just mention couple points.
A. Range playstyle that bydefault means higher survivability.
B. Easier uptime of defensive buffs. For example press Cloak- get minor protection for full duration of hot. Meanwhile on templar you have to spam jabs to get protection and guess what - you will do it minority of time because in melee playstyle where you recive more damage, on a class with no proactive defense - you will simply spam heals instead of your spammable, making protection passive uptime even lower than 70%.
C. And most important Reposition capability. Its main source of survivability in pvp on every class byfar superior to brainless brawling abilities and everyone knows it. Guess why noone use Ironblood set with its high boost of survivability - because reposition >>> facetanking.
Nb have one of the best repositioning tools meanwhile templar has access to RAT or Mist but not a single class feature that helps with it, most of time just hold block and spam heal till out of stam and inevitable death, that forcing them to play into more brawling playstyle, i.e. gut their almost unexisting offensive toolkit further.

TL;DR: a super simple logic.

"Just use bit of logic instead of feelings?"
[snip]

Since you started off talking about Puncturing Sweep & Swallow Soul, we'll use them as an example:
(I'm going to ignore Concealed Weapon, since that skill is only viable over Swallow Soul on a magblade in relatively niche builds.)

Puncturing Sweep

Swallow Soul

No CP was used, both toons are Breton and identically equipped — 5 Innate Axiom, 5 War Maiden, 2 Balorgh, Prismatic glyphs on armor, SD glyphs on arcane jewelry, Artaeum Fish Bowl food, and the Apprentice Mundus. Only buff is Major Sorcery.
[Note: both builds would likely need more sustain to be viable, but the magblade would definitely need even more. This equates to even less damage on a viable magblade build.]

Puncturing Sweep: 13,168
Burning Light: 4,712
Sweeps + Burning Light: 17,880
Swallow Soul: 8,386

Even if Burning Light doesn't proc, Puncturing Sweep does 57% more (1.57x) damage than Swallow Soul. (Put another way, Swallow Soul only does 66% of the damage that Sweeps does — again: without Burning Light.) You also heal for 40% of the damage done, rather than the 36% you get on Swallow Soul. Not to mention the fact that you also get Minor Protection.

Add in burning Light and the results become comical: the Sweeps/BL tooltip is 17,880, or 113% more (2.13x) than Swallow Soul.

So without taking Major Evasion into consideration, there is clearly no comparison between the two. Let's see what it looks like with Major Evasion:

Puncturing Sweep: 13,168 - 20% = 10,534
Burning Light: 4,712
Sweeps + Burning Light: 15,246
Swallow Soul: 8,386

Sweeps still does 26% more without BL, and 81% more if it procs. On your first hit, BL is almost guaranteed to proc considering you're typically going to open with Toppling Charge, thus all 4 ticks should land and if you've already applied Purifying Light like you're supposed to, that's another guaranteed proc. (This is where class toolkit cohesiveness comes into play, like I mentioned in my post.w) I won't get into Crescent Sweep or Radiant Oppression, both of which are also undodgable.

TL;DR: If you think magblades have a combo that's even half as reliable as magplar, then you've obviously never played the class before.

As far as your other points:

Major Evasion: saying "literally every stam build uses" it is a straight up falsehood. Only medium armor builds or builds using Dual Wield have that option, and I don't even know if you can say the majority of stam builds fit that description. 2H/Bow & Heavy is extremely common, especially right now. Against Light Armor builds, obviously there is simply no comparison whatsoever.

Range: if you think that's a significant advantage (or indeed, an advantage at all) in this meta where nearly everyone is running a gap closer and/or can dodge you every single time, then you haven't even tried to play ranged magblade. (Not to mention the fact that it's impossible to play fully ranged in the first place unless you use a non class ult.)

Burst skill: Merciless is completely unreliable, is not available on demand, and has a loud AF "you're being attacked, dodge now!" warning sound. As weak as [you feel] Purifying Light is, you're at least guaranteed some damage.

CCs Crippling Grasp isn't worth slotting on it's own. The only decent CC is Fear, and even that isn't worth slotting on most builds (the range kinda sucks & all it does is stun.) Fear Traps can be good in group play. In any case, most magblades I come across use Flame Clench which is just a worse version of Javelin.

Defensive toolkit:Personally, I don't think there is a clear cut winner with regard to defense. I do agree with some of the points you make here, (for instance Shade is a strong skill) however it isn't the end-all be-all that you seem to think it is (ex: in BGs half the time you port straight to your death.) You're also glossing over all of the defensive capabilities that templar has, not the least of which is much more reliable healing, and you're not required to use a Restoration Staff. You don't realize how good you have it being able to have Destro or S/B on your back bar. Cloak is basically broken right now (not in a good way) and in fact I am currently looking at replacing it with Mist Form. As I said, I don't know that there is a clear cut winner here.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not trying to say magplar is OP or top tier — but to say that it's weaker than magblade is simply absurd. Either you don't fully understand how magblade works, you're not being honest with yourself, (or me) or it's a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

[Addendum] If you want to get into PVP tier lists, they apparently agree that magplar is stronger in 4 of 6 categories, — every case outside of solo play. This can almost 100% be attributed to the fact that magblades are simply better at escaping due to Shadowy Disguise/Shade. If you want to try playing a build that uses Dark Cloak instead of Shadowy Disguise though, I think you'll wind up wishing you were on a magplar. Shade without Shadowy Disguise simply prolongs the inevitable in the same way spamming heals does, and your damage output is even worse.

[edited for baiting]

[snip]
Are you seriously trying to compare tooltips of instant ranged spammable with channeled melee spammable?
[snip]
All skills ingame are not random numbers, they share same base strength that differentiated based on skill design:
Range skills deal less damage than melee skills for fixed amount, because they ranged. Go check patchnotes regarding light attacks if you still dont know that amount.
Channeled/casttime skills deal more damage than instant based on duration, because they channeled.
AoEs deal less damage than single target for fixed amount.
Etc., etc.
With same logic, or more precisely - [snip] you could pretend that Surprise Attack is superior to Swallow Soul because , what a surprise, as melee skill its tooltip is higher.
If you want to compare tooltips of spammables you should compare Soul vs Dark Flare or Surprise Attack vs Jabs but at this point i 100% sure you dont even know math beside their design.
[snip] what is amount of damage increase overtime for channeled ability within 1 global cooldown?
[snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Drdeath20

I feel that a few easy changes could make the world of difference for a templar

1. Remove burning light and just give a flat X% increase to all damage
2.

Langeston wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Want to compare the entire toolkit?

Puncturing Sweep > Swallow Soul and Concealed Weapon
Crescent Sweep > Soul Harvest
Toppling Charge > Lotus Fan
Radiant Oppression > Impale
Nova > Consuming Darkness (which I have literally never seen used)

Are you another non-Templar? It really doesn't help having non-Templars enter this conversation. Rather, you should make a forum post about NBs and try to get buffs for your character choice. But since you want to compare apples and oranges.

Punc Sweep is a channel, which puts a snare on the Templar. We also must be within melee range to get any benefit of heals. Swallow soul is instant and allows you to keep your distance. Concealed Weapon is also instant and gives you mega-speed in stealth. A Templar cannot stealth. They have no mobility in their toolkit.

Toppling charge is a wonderful skill. But you also have a Stun and Off-balance with Concealed Weapon. You know, the skill that gives you mega-speed? Lotus Fan is aoe and also causes all enemies to take 8% more damage. You would be better off comparing Lotus Fan to Explosive charge. They are more similar. But even Explosive charge doesn't cause enemies to take 8% more damage.

Radiant Oppression is a channel. Puts a snare on the caster. It isn't instant like Impale. Radiant also doesn't tick as soon as it hits. It should, but it doesn't. It's delayed. So we are often not able to deal the damage we need before the enemy gets out of execute range. It isn't dodgeable which some might say makes it better than Impale. But again, it takes time to start dealing dmg. So I've heard others say that Impale might be better. At least Impale allows you to be mobile.

Why compare Nova and Consuming Darkness? Are they what you would compare? Why not compare it with Soul Tether? That might be a better comparison. Is that because of the Major Protection? I'm not saying that Consuming Darkness is a good skill. But why compare to a Templar's toolkit? Why not create a forum post trying to improve the NBs toolkit?

Please go back and look at my initial post (or read it below), then read the thread. My only assertion was that Magblade is not a "Ferrari" in PVP, and as far as I was concerned that was the end of it. However other people jumped in, and as you'll see, any comparison of apples & oranges was introduced into the conversation by them — I was simply responding to those [one-sided and inaccurate] comparisons.

If you want to say templar needs a buff, fine. In fact, I agree. However saying it is bottom tier in every regard ignores reality, so if you intend to do that, be prepared to be called out on it. Magblade and Magcro are both in worse positions as it pertains to PVP, and have been for quite a while. That is not a particularly controversial statement to most people.

Langeston wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you are talking about PVE here. If that's the case, then I think you're comparing apples & oranges because I'm fairly certain that @Mayrael is focused on PVP. While your post may be correct with regards to PVE, nearly everything in it is inapplicable (or even wrong) in PVP.

For all I know magblade may indeed be a Ferrari in PVE, but they're a 1983 Dodge Omni in PVP.

But would you agree that magblades are the Ferrari of damage dealers?

That depends on what you are talking about.

If you're talking about PVE, I would defer to the people who actually know about that — I am not one of them. (From what I gather though, they are at or near the top as far as PVE DPS is concerned.)

However with regard to PVP I would very strongly disagree. No delayed burst, no viable AOE abilities, only one viable [relatively weak] DOT, most of the toolkit is dodgable and/or reflectable with long travel times, and the burst combo is incredibly telegraphed.

There's also the fact that magblade's inherent squishiness and poor healing doesn't allow it to consistently apply pressure like other classes unless you build for tankiness, in which case you lose a lot of damage relative to those other classes that have inherent tankiness and healing.

This vast difference in performance between PVE & PVP is why I made the distinction in the first place.

For the record a damage dealer is a role used in pve.

When it comes to unique buffs like reave thats nbs get for passively slotting incap or 5% extra damage for 6 seconds that stacks with everything after using incap. Nbs have some of the best unique buffs. Alth ok ugh these buffs alone would be not very meaningful except nbs have the hardest hitting abilities in the game in bow proc and incap. And guess what you get another unique buff if couting to 5 light attacks is too tough for you (10% more crit).

When it comes to sustain nbs are in a great spot. Self healing from all their best abilities. And a buffet of skills to use depending on the group. Hey this group doesnt have minor vulnerability well instead of cripple i will use teleport strike and guess what that passively boost my crit. 20 second skills and 40 second skills (that you really dont need to fire that bow proc in cleave situations).

When it comes to magplar i have to wear medusa over mothers sorrow and become a vamplar to keep up. Shards, orbs, wall, solar barrage, shimmering and then sweep till aoe's wear off. Sure trash gets gobbled up but mobile fights make me near useless. I use radiant glory over radiant oppression and almost die from the suicide switch , if i dont crit and only get an 18k jesus beam tic. 20% of 18k is only 3600 get 2 of those in a row and your shimmering is siphoning off more life than you are recieving back from the heal. Now add in the expected damage that you take from whatever trial or dungeon situation. Its not super awesome.

No real unique buffs, every skill is a channel or 10 seconds ability or less and believe it or not the self healing is on the low end. For example i can sweep myself to 100% if there is an enemy nearby, but what if the enemy is mobile or i have to play ranged.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Langeston

Cinbri wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[snip]

I won't search for exact patch numbers but I will do so if forced to, this is just last few patches.
Living dark/Unstable core overbuff;
Ritual being cleanse, soft cc, damage and heal tool at the same time while twisting path was nerfed because of being damage and healing skill at the same time;
PoTL/Purifying Light being bugged (in favor of templars) for very long.
Templars as the only ones evading cast time on burst ult.

Many of those things were balanced after some time bringing templars more in line with vanilla classes, that's true, but please stop overreacting.

This patch minor/major tweaks we can see for magblades bring only nerfs, while templars now get unique (very easy) access to minor sorcery, minor breach and all 3 minor recovery's which all got buffed.

Are templars top class? For sure no! Are they bottom class? No way.

[snip] Most peoples recovery is around 500-900. Even if you took 20% of that, its still an awful number. Yahoo my recovery goes up a little but only if i slot repentance and have it front bar'd.

I stopped playing my magplar entirely a few patches ago to play a magblade. It was like switching from a Toyota to a Ferrari. Ranged spammable that is a HoT, shade, options on builds depending on group (cripple for the cheap DoT vs lotus fan for the minor vulnerability), unique buffs in reave and 20% additional damage for 6 seconds after using incap. Nice luxury for also having the strongest burst skill in the game (merciless bow proc). On a test dummy i can get some bow procs around 90k. Works swimmingly with impale too. Pretty easy rotation just count to 4 and light attack bow proc, and the best part it gets easier during execute. The hardest part is managing your potions to best serve your ultimate generation.

At this point i could care less about templars. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you are talking about PVE here. If that's the case, then I think you're comparing apples & oranges because I'm fairly certain that @Mayrael is focused on PVP. While your post may be correct with regards to PVE, nearly everything in it is inapplicable (or even wrong) in PVP.

For all I know magblade may indeed be a Ferrari in PVE, but they're a 1983 Dodge Omni in PVP.

While magblade is still better for solo 1vx than a magplar.

Shadow Image gives so much outplay potential while fighting outnumbered in resource/keep tower, while magplar can only block cast honor the dead and mistform as defense options (which both sucks), darkflare has a hard cast time to land and backlash requires 6 second damage build up which keeps you vulnerable while jabbing and also hits like wet noodle for 2-3k.

Not saying that magblade is perfect, but it does have more outplay potential for solo play than a magplar and is more well rounded class, magplar is only "decent" in group play and "decent" in dueling, but since stonethorn patch changes it really dropped 1 tier down for both dueling and group play.

And if you don't agree, look around at stonethorn pvp tier class for both CP and NO CP, both magplar and stamplar is at bottom tier.

I mostly play BGs at this point and templars are definitely stronger than Magblades in that setting. There's a reason that Magblades are nearly non-existent in high MMR BGs whereas there's still a good number of magplars and stamplars. Stamblades I see more frequently than I used to, but I can go literally days without seeing another magblade in a BG. Magblades are nice because of Shadowy Disguise & Shade, but aside from escaping/repositioning, everything else I can think of off the top of my head is better on a magplar.

I disagree with your assertion that magblade is more well rounded. It's easy to only use class abilities on a magplar, while that's nearly impossible to do on a magblade. (On my current magblade build I have to use 6 non-class abilities to round out the NB toolkit — my magplar build doesn't require any.)

As far as ''outplay potential," you seem to be talking about juking & evading — if that's the case I agree. However if a decent magplar comes across an equally decent magblade in open world or a BG, chances are the magplar wins or the magblade escapes. I don't really consider that a win.

As far as tier lists, to be honest I don't put a whole lot of stock in them at this point. So far, in nearly every one I've come across where the rationale was explained, they seemed pretty biased to me. Regardless, can you link to which ones you are referring to?

If we are talking bgs i hope you know that magplar self healing is pretty trash, on top of that without procsets that class has no offensive pressure.
Last update they pretty much neutered the entire templar offensive toolkit, and it takes time for people to realise how bad the class is.
As for seeing more magplars than magblades, i play in high mmr bgs on pc eu and neither are very well represented atm, and even fewer stamplars.
The class just doesnt bring anything to bgs outside of providing purify syenergy every so often.
Right now wardens /nightblades(well stamblades anyway) and sorcs(both stam and mag) are probably the most often seen ones, with quite a few dks as well(leap is a fantastic tool for bgs).
And there is a good reason for that.

If you think magplar's offensive toolkit is bad, imagine if literally all of it were dodgeable. (Most magblade abilites are reflectable too.) There are BGs where feel like the only thing I see the entire match is "DODGE DODGE DODGE" — combat text might as well be turned off. Now that I think about it, this is likely almost the entire reason magblade overperforms in PVE vs PVP — mobs don't roll dodge a whole lot.

I'm not saying Magplar is top tier right now or anything, but better self healing paired with the fact that it's burst combo is nearly entirely undodgable is a huge advantage over a magblade's truly abysmal self healing & 100% dodgable burst combo. With the exception of mobility skills, magplars just have stronger and/or more reliable versions nearly every magblade ability, and in many cases there's just no comparison. The stun on Toppling Charge is huge and that alone makes it much better than Lotus fan, Sweeps does more damage and heals for more than Swallow Soul/Concealed Weapon, Radiant Oppression is much easier to land and can do much more damage than Impale (which I don't even bother to slot), I have nothing that compares to Javelin so I'm forced to use Flame Clench which is absolute garbage by comparison, Purifying Light & Merciless are difficult to compare but PL is definitely more reliable and thus in the long run likely does a lot more damage...the list goes on. I also cannot overstate how nice it is to not be forced to use a resto staff on my back bar. It's literally a game changer.

Don't get me wrong: Shade & Cloak are definitely strong, and they are so much fun — they're almost the entire reason I love playing magblade — but magplar simply has a stronger, more cohesive toolkit than magblade. I kind of feel like the class is incomplete and I have to piece my build together from scraps.

As far as class representation in high MMR BGs, apparently PC NA is apparently to EU, however we also have a ton of stam necros as well.

Just use bit of logic instead of feelings.
1. Offensive toolkit: nb atleast have toolkit.
A. First of all nb didnt suffered from its entire skillines were blatantly nerfed by "dot nerf" because class was always burst. While templar was similarly to dk - playable by stacking dots yet unlike dk he didnt recieved 33% passive boost to damage. On top of that 90% of nb toolkit is not hardcountered by evasion buff that literally every stam build use.
33% less damage on allmost all skills and on top additional 25% reductuon not even near as fair as trade for undodgeable.
B. You have range spammable that apply strong hot. Fact it being ranged and hot by default making it super strong booster of defense because you can easily spam it at range without endangering yourself into melee and this require to waste less gcd on defense, HoT grant even bigger survivability as it keep ticking even when you ended your dps rotation snd went defensive mode.
Meanwhile templar spammable is melee that byitself apply higher risk of incoming damage and unlike ranged spammable it literally unable to land on any high mobile target that literally every stam build coz it being channel. Yes, it cant be dodged on paper but on practice it means it also cant even connect its full 4 ticks on any target that is not target dummy. I posted back in time quite a few gifs showing how hard jabs desyncing literally not be able to hit target inside hitbox. Its apply heal not hot so as soon as you going defensive, and you will go defensive in melee range alot coz templar simply dont have proactive defense - it stop providing its defensive capability. And when nb Surprise Attack got rulebreaking buff to stun people simply coz nb addicted to some old bug, templars Sweeps heal got nerfhamnered while zos just saying that they will monitoring how class will perform. This turned theoretical strength of sweeps to get at least nice heal against stacked group unexisting.
C. Burst skill - apart from spammable you need either strong-hitting dots or burst heal and nb atleast does have strong burst skill. It not as good as p2w blastbones or shalks but at least it there.
Meanwhile templar has no choice. Like I mentioned before its entire dot kit that was main damage source got blatantly nerfed. And on top of it its burst got neutered too.
Burning Light "change" you can see in main thread how it killed passive in pvp.
Backlash got killed too, you also can read its problems i posted i think in this thread, when burst skill deal like 1k damage because zos decided for some unknown reason simply kill it.
D. CCs - once again nb atleast have roots or aoe cc, they got nerfed too to promote p2w classes, but still better than nothing.
Meanwhile templar lost its aoe snare and unjustly lost its root; only root remained within Unstable Core that noone use coz it horribly bugged skill and despite i detsily reporting it for over year now - not a single fix for this skill. So now templar sit in situation where melee spec cant even control opponent movement simply because forum whiners became unhappy that templar suddenly could decrease their mobility by Eclipse.

2. Defensive toolkit: not gona bother write wall of text again, will just mention couple points.
A. Range playstyle that bydefault means higher survivability.
B. Easier uptime of defensive buffs. For example press Cloak- get minor protection for full duration of hot. Meanwhile on templar you have to spam jabs to get protection and guess what - you will do it minority of time because in melee playstyle where you recive more damage, on a class with no proactive defense - you will simply spam heals instead of your spammable, making protection passive uptime even lower than 70%.
C. And most important Reposition capability. Its main source of survivability in pvp on every class byfar superior to brainless brawling abilities and everyone knows it. Guess why noone use Ironblood set with its high boost of survivability - because reposition >>> facetanking.
Nb have one of the best repositioning tools meanwhile templar has access to RAT or Mist but not a single class feature that helps with it, most of time just hold block and spam heal till out of stam and inevitable death, that forcing them to play into more brawling playstyle, i.e. gut their almost unexisting offensive toolkit further.

TL;DR: a super simple logic.

"Just use bit of logic instead of feelings?"
[snip]

Since you started off talking about Puncturing Sweep & Swallow Soul, we'll use them as an example:
(I'm going to ignore Concealed Weapon, since that skill is only viable over Swallow Soul on a magblade in relatively niche builds.)

Puncturing Sweep

Swallow Soul

No CP was used, both toons are Breton and identically equipped — 5 Innate Axiom, 5 War Maiden, 2 Balorgh, Prismatic glyphs on armor, SD glyphs on arcane jewelry, Artaeum Fish Bowl food, and the Apprentice Mundus. Only buff is Major Sorcery.
[Note: both builds would likely need more sustain to be viable, but the magblade would definitely need even more. This equates to even less damage on a viable magblade build.]

Puncturing Sweep: 13,168
Burning Light: 4,712
Sweeps + Burning Light: 17,880
Swallow Soul: 8,386

Even if Burning Light doesn't proc, Puncturing Sweep does 57% more (1.57x) damage than Swallow Soul. (Put another way, Swallow Soul only does 66% of the damage that Sweeps does — again: without Burning Light.) You also heal for 40% of the damage done, rather than the 36% you get on Swallow Soul. Not to mention the fact that you also get Minor Protection.

Add in burning Light and the results become comical: the Sweeps/BL tooltip is 17,880, or 113% more (2.13x) than Swallow Soul.

So without taking Major Evasion into consideration, there is clearly no comparison between the two. Let's see what it looks like with Major Evasion:

Puncturing Sweep: 13,168 - 20% = 10,534
Burning Light: 4,712
Sweeps + Burning Light: 15,246
Swallow Soul: 8,386

Sweeps still does 26% more without BL, and 81% more if it procs. On your first hit, BL is almost guaranteed to proc considering you're typically going to open with Toppling Charge, thus all 4 ticks should land and if you've already applied Purifying Light like you're supposed to, that's another guaranteed proc. (This is where class toolkit cohesiveness comes into play, like I mentioned in my post.w) I won't get into Crescent Sweep or Radiant Oppression, both of which are also undodgable.

TL;DR: If you think magblades have a combo that's even half as reliable as magplar, then you've obviously never played the class before.

As far as your other points:

Major Evasion: saying "literally every stam build uses" it is a straight up falsehood. Only medium armor builds or builds using Dual Wield have that option, and I don't even know if you can say the majority of stam builds fit that description. 2H/Bow & Heavy is extremely common, especially right now. Against Light Armor builds, obviously there is simply no comparison whatsoever.

Range: if you think that's a significant advantage (or indeed, an advantage at all) in this meta where nearly everyone is running a gap closer and/or can dodge you every single time, then you haven't even tried to play ranged magblade. (Not to mention the fact that it's impossible to play fully ranged in the first place unless you use a non class ult.)

Burst skill: Merciless is completely unreliable, is not available on demand, and has a loud AF "you're being attacked, dodge now!" warning sound. As weak as [you feel] Purifying Light is, you're at least guaranteed some damage.

CCs Crippling Grasp isn't worth slotting on it's own. The only decent CC is Fear, and even that isn't worth slotting on most builds (the range kinda sucks & all it does is stun.) Fear Traps can be good in group play. In any case, most magblades I come across use Flame Clench which is just a worse version of Javelin.

Defensive toolkit:Personally, I don't think there is a clear cut winner with regard to defense. I do agree with some of the points you make here, (for instance Shade is a strong skill) however it isn't the end-all be-all that you seem to think it is (ex: in BGs half the time you port straight to your death.) You're also glossing over all of the defensive capabilities that templar has, not the least of which is much more reliable healing, and you're not required to use a Restoration Staff. You don't realize how good you have it being able to have Destro or S/B on your back bar. Cloak is basically broken right now (not in a good way) and in fact I am currently looking at replacing it with Mist Form. As I said, I don't know that there is a clear cut winner here.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not trying to say magplar is OP or top tier — but to say that it's weaker than magblade is simply absurd. Either you don't fully understand how magblade works, you're not being honest with yourself, (or me) or it's a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

[Addendum] If you want to get into PVP tier lists, they apparently agree that magplar is stronger in 4 of 6 categories, — every case outside of solo play. This can almost 100% be attributed to the fact that magblades are simply better at escaping due to Shadowy Disguise/Shade. If you want to try playing a build that uses Dark Cloak instead of Shadowy Disguise though, I think you'll wind up wishing you were on a magplar. Shade without Shadowy Disguise simply prolongs the inevitable in the same way spamming heals does, and your damage output is even worse.

[edited for baiting]

[snip]
Are you seriously trying to compare tooltips of instant ranged spammable with channeled melee spammable?
[snip]
All skills ingame are not random numbers, they share same base strength that differentiated based on skill design:
Range skills deal less damage than melee skills for fixed amount, because they ranged. Go check patchnotes regarding light attacks if you still dont know that amount.
Channeled/casttime skills deal more damage than instant based on duration, because they channeled.
AoEs deal less damage than single target for fixed amount.
Etc., etc.
With same logic, or more precisely - [snip] you could pretend that Surprise Attack is superior to Swallow Soul because , what a surprise, as melee skill its tooltip is higher.
If you want to compare tooltips of spammables you should compare Soul vs Dark Flare or Surprise Attack vs Jabs but at this point i 100% sure you dont even know math beside their design.
[snip] what is amount of damage increase overtime for channeled ability within 1 global cooldown?
[snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Good grief, man. YOU are the one that compared Swallow Soul & Sweeps first — all I did was add context. If it was comparing apples to oranges, then maybe you shouldn't have tried to compare them in the first place. If you're not going to try to at least be reasonable and intellectually consistent, then I am done trying to reason with you.

techyeshic

I keep going back to my stamplar after playing other classes and I do better because a lot of it is just muscle memory. Swapped to my stamden midway through last night and I was raw but racking in killing blows almost by accident with a burst combo, and had a couple "They are spamming ranged at me. Wait. I have a thing for that." Then, its so nice to have available a 2nd and 3rd burst heal back to back while escaping focus rather than wait 20 seconds for rally or have it be really small; all while Vigor tick is getting buffed by spamming the heal as well. Of course, my templar can purge 5 effects at one time, yet they are re-applied for free from procs now and that cost me just under 5k of a limited mag pool. Feels like spamming the free 1 effect removal is fine, especially coupled with the extra burst heals.

But before we get to a "Well; warden needs nerfed" lets look at what really is happening in templar, especially stamplar; toolkit is lacking. I really think stamden and Stamcro could be models for where all classes should have tools to be played well rather than so heavily focused on cloak, jabs, leap, streak being so overwhelming the single huge crutch of a class

The 5 purge effects is expensive but ER tics make up for the lack of major mending and then some. Not sure if its enough to make up for lack of a burst heal but we can say most stam classes do not have a burst heal in the class built in. I can ignore major breach as wardens losing it soon.

The burst effect is undeniable. I still am amazed templars had people complain about POTL ever since it became templar damage absorbed only because it could crit. it takes twice as long, has a similar tooltip as sub assault, single target, and requires a lot of damage to be applied in that time which consistently damaging a target in the game's performance is nearly impossible. Lucky to get an ultimate and a couple of jab pokes in 6 seconds. It's extremely lackluster.

There's no defense. Some will say cleansing effects does that, but obviously a couple other classes can do that AND have defensives. No way to deal with being focused compared to even just having a ranged absorb like warden, a cloack and teleport like NB, a streak with AOE CC or projectile absorbstion; and no speed. Could throw in DK Wings but those are not realy seen on stam DK nor even a lot of MAGDKs lately. Magplar has at least living dark but it got neutered pretty quick in stregth and reserved to direct damage to where the cost is not worth for stam. Don't even need to mention sun shield.

The ultimates have also gotten to be lack luster other than crescent sweep on magplar. You lack the penetration on stamplar IMO and there are better options but again; if I picked a complaint, it would be lack of utilitiy. The heal ultimate is more expensive than Wardens heal ultimate and you have to freeze in place, if you move; you just lost your ultimate. Nova is stuck in ones spot on the ground and cost more than northernstorm/permafrost which has a chance, or sure thing to root, not just snare

MurderMostFoul

How about this for Empowering Sweep:

Remove Empower and the duration extension for each enemy hit, add:

"While active, you gain 100% Critical Strike chance."

One can dream...

Langeston

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I feel that a few easy changes could make the world of difference for a templar

1. Remove burning light and just give a flat X% increase to all damage
2.

Langeston wrote: »

That depends on what you are talking about.

If you're talking about PVE, I would defer to the people who actually know about that — I am not one of them. (From what I gather though, they are at or near the top as far as PVE DPS is concerned.)

However with regard to PVP I would very strongly disagree. No delayed burst, no viable AOE abilities, only one viable [relatively weak] DOT, most of the toolkit is dodgable and/or reflectable with long travel times, and the burst combo is incredibly telegraphed.

There's also the fact that magblade's inherent squishiness and poor healing doesn't allow it to consistently apply pressure like other classes unless you build for tankiness, in which case you lose a lot of damage relative to those other classes that have inherent tankiness and healing.

This vast difference in performance between PVE & PVP is why I made the distinction in the first place.

For the record a damage dealer is a role used in pve.

When it comes to unique buffs like reave thats nbs get for passively slotting incap or 5% extra damage for 6 seconds that stacks with everything after using incap. Nbs have some of the best unique buffs. Alth ok ugh these buffs alone would be not very meaningful except nbs have the hardest hitting abilities in the game in bow proc and incap. And guess what you get another unique buff if couting to 5 light attacks is too tough for you (10% more crit).

When it comes to sustain nbs are in a great spot. Self healing from all their best abilities. And a buffet of skills to use depending on the group. Hey this group doesnt have minor vulnerability well instead of cripple i will use teleport strike and guess what that passively boost my crit. 20 second skills and 40 second skills (that you really dont need to fire that bow proc in cleave situations).

When it comes to magplar i have to wear medusa over mothers sorrow and become a vamplar to keep up. Shards, orbs, wall, solar barrage, shimmering and then sweep till aoe's wear off. Sure trash gets gobbled up but mobile fights make me near useless. I use radiant glory over radiant oppression and almost die from the suicide switch , if i dont crit and only get an 18k jesus beam tic. 20% of 18k is only 3600 get 2 of those in a row and your shimmering is siphoning off more life than you are recieving back from the heal. Now add in the expected damage that you take from whatever trial or dungeon situation. Its not super awesome.

No real unique buffs, every skill is a channel or 10 seconds ability or less and believe it or not the self healing is on the low end. For example i can sweep myself to 100% if there is an enemy nearby, but what if the enemy is mobile or i have to play ranged.

Like I said, I don't play enough PVE to comment on it. All I can say is, NB's success in PVE certainly does not translate into success in PVP and it's important to differentiate between the two. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I think part of the issue is how differently players are treated than NPC mobs with regard to health, resistances, crit resistance, healing etc. I feel like that just makes balancing killing NPCs vs players (PVE vs PVP) that much more difficult. For instance, why do trash mobs like wolves have 31.4k health? That's more than most players have in a Deathmatch by sizable margin. That wolf also has zero crit resistance whereas even the glassiest of glass cannons in PVP now have a 20% resistance to crits. That means that crit will always be king in PVE, but won't [necessarily] be in PVP, which explains NB being strong in the former and weak in the latter.

Maybe there's a logic to it, but I feel like ZOS has painted themselves into a corner by trying to balance two completely disparate game modes together. At this point though, I don't know what ZOS can do to fix that. It's a conundrum of their own making.

ealdwin

Langeston wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I feel that a few easy changes could make the world of difference for a templar

1. Remove burning light and just give a flat X% increase to all damage
2.

Langeston wrote: »

That depends on what you are talking about.

If you're talking about PVE, I would defer to the people who actually know about that — I am not one of them. (From what I gather though, they are at or near the top as far as PVE DPS is concerned.)

However with regard to PVP I would very strongly disagree. No delayed burst, no viable AOE abilities, only one viable [relatively weak] DOT, most of the toolkit is dodgable and/or reflectable with long travel times, and the burst combo is incredibly telegraphed.

There's also the fact that magblade's inherent squishiness and poor healing doesn't allow it to consistently apply pressure like other classes unless you build for tankiness, in which case you lose a lot of damage relative to those other classes that have inherent tankiness and healing.

This vast difference in performance between PVE & PVP is why I made the distinction in the first place.

For the record a damage dealer is a role used in pve.

When it comes to unique buffs like reave thats nbs get for passively slotting incap or 5% extra damage for 6 seconds that stacks with everything after using incap. Nbs have some of the best unique buffs. Alth ok ugh these buffs alone would be not very meaningful except nbs have the hardest hitting abilities in the game in bow proc and incap. And guess what you get another unique buff if couting to 5 light attacks is too tough for you (10% more crit).

When it comes to sustain nbs are in a great spot. Self healing from all their best abilities. And a buffet of skills to use depending on the group. Hey this group doesnt have minor vulnerability well instead of cripple i will use teleport strike and guess what that passively boost my crit. 20 second skills and 40 second skills (that you really dont need to fire that bow proc in cleave situations).

When it comes to magplar i have to wear medusa over mothers sorrow and become a vamplar to keep up. Shards, orbs, wall, solar barrage, shimmering and then sweep till aoe's wear off. Sure trash gets gobbled up but mobile fights make me near useless. I use radiant glory over radiant oppression and almost die from the suicide switch , if i dont crit and only get an 18k jesus beam tic. 20% of 18k is only 3600 get 2 of those in a row and your shimmering is siphoning off more life than you are recieving back from the heal. Now add in the expected damage that you take from whatever trial or dungeon situation. Its not super awesome.

No real unique buffs, every skill is a channel or 10 seconds ability or less and believe it or not the self healing is on the low end. For example i can sweep myself to 100% if there is an enemy nearby, but what if the enemy is mobile or i have to play ranged.

Like I said, I don't play enough PVE to comment on it. All I can say is, NB's success in PVE certainly does not translate into success in PVP and it's important to differentiate between the two. That was the only point I was trying to make.

I think part of the issue is how differently players are treated than NPC mobs with regard to health, resistances, crit resistance, healing etc. I feel like that just makes balancing killing NPCs vs players (PVE vs PVP) that much more difficult. For instance, why do trash mobs like wolves have 31.4k health? That's more than most players have in a Deathmatch by sizable margin. That wolf also has zero crit resistance whereas even the glassiest of glass cannons in PVP now have a 20% resistance to crits. That means that crit will always be king in PVE, but won't [necessarily] be in PVP, which explains NB being strong in the former and weak in the latter.

Maybe there's a logic to it, but I feel like ZOS has painted themselves into a corner by trying to balance two completely disparate game modes together. At this point though, I don't know what ZOS can do to fix that. It's a conundrum of their own making.

This is a bit off topic, but since the discussion has come to this:

Others have suggested that all PVP could be NoCP, and CP would be exclusively used in PVE situations, thus making balance for PVE around what is achievable through CP and PVP balanced through a baseline of what abilities look like when a player reaches max level. And it make sense. In an ideal usage of this system, every class upon hitting level 50, would be more or less close to well-rounded in terms of damage, defense, and healing. Roughly. Differences would obviously have to exist in order to prevent classes from becoming purely cosmetic with no real impact for how each class plays. CP would then be used (in this idea setup) to help improve a build towards a certain PVE role. This way, PVE balance would be defined through what is possible through CP. This might help to alleviate the glaring weaknesses in certain classes in PVP that are caused by the healing/damage/defense potential in PVE (and vice versa) that are not addressed to keep those classes from becoming overpowered in either sphere.

MurderMostFoul

Firstmep wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Tip for struggling Stamplars this patch:

Run Crescent Sweep for your Ult. You'll have to make sure you have gear that increases its power, but with it ticking along with jabs, you can still consistently burning light, and still have a decent power of the light burst.

You need a good amount of spell pen to make it work tbh.
As for POTL burst, it really depends on your target, you can fully unload with onslaught and everything for 6 seconds on a target and still not do more than like 4k dmg on the pop.
Thats reaaaaly bad for how long the skill takes.

For spell pen, I've got NMA + Balorgh, not insane, but functional.

Joy_Division

Langeston wrote: »

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not trying to say magplar is OP or top tier — but to say that it's weaker than magblade is simply absurd. Either you don't fully understand how magblade works, you're not being honest with yourself, (or me) or it's a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

[Addendum] If you want to get into PVP tier lists, they apparently agree that magplar is stronger in 4 of 6 categories, — every case outside of solo play. This can almost 100% be attributed to the fact that magblades are simply better at escaping due to Shadowy Disguise/Shade. If you want to try playing a build that uses Dark Cloak instead of Shadowy Disguise though, I think you'll wind up wishing you were on a magplar. Shade without Shadowy Disguise simply prolongs the inevitable in the same way spamming heals does, and your damage output is even worse.

[edited for baiting]

Seriously, what is compelling you, who seem to love NBs, to come into a thread dedicated to discussing the problems Templars are having?

Number of times in the past 6 years I went into a "NBs have problems" thread to whine about my templar. Zero.

Like what's the motivation? Are you seriously going to sit there and try to convince me or that anyone who has mained a Templar that Templars really aren't all that bad this patch? Is this a joke? You don't main one, you don;t care about them, you haven't been invested in them for 6 years and thus just have an outsider's perspective of where templars have been in this game. Go ahead and prove to me and others your deep knowledge of templars. Tell me how their skills have changed since launch, when those changes happened, and how those changes have forced Templars to alter their gameplay. I'm guessing you can't. Just like I couldn't with NBs - which is why I don;t go in those NB threads and lecture them how they're wrong about their own class. And yet, here you are. Like, how much intellectual conceit does that take?

Yes, I want to get into PvP tier lists to disabuse an utterly moronic notion. Any tier list that makes it a point to mention "class is good in groups" means the class sucks. "Good in groups" means when it's left to its own class devices, it fails. Or shall we put on our Tinder profiles, "Hey, when I hang out with you and your friends, I'm a total blast. On nights where it's just us, well, umm, yeah, I good with groups though!" Oh boy, I can't wait to roll a Templar and join a zerg to hide my class's failings! It opens up so many options for viable PvP experiences! Eso devs: "Play as you want!" Eso non-templars: "Yeah, its totally cool that if templars play as they want they'll suck because they decent in groups!

If you want to act as a voice of reason against perceived bias, then a good place to start is know the class and not be biased yourself. There are numerous things Templar players say that I don't necessarily agree with. When I do raise these disagreements I don;t do it in a way that downplays the overall point (templars have major issues), don;t refer to some questionable justification for those problems (good in groups), don't try to marginalize templar problems (but, but look at NBs!), and with the knowledge I do have about the class, suggest an alternative solution to the problem (templars have major issues). Such a perspective would be valuable, but you didn;t go this route. Everything in that spoiler was "wah, Puncturing Sweeps is so much better than Swallow Soul, stop pointing out the disadvantages of evasion, and ZoS has ruined my NB skills." It's absolutely freaking amazing that when Templars point out the gameplay issues of Puncturing Strikes, you dismiss these and provide mathematical calculations of every single Strike hitting its target while at the same time whining to us that "Merciless is completely unreliable." This goes beyond cognitive dissonance.

Langeston

Joy_Division wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not trying to say magplar is OP or top tier — but to say that it's weaker than magblade is simply absurd. Either you don't fully understand how magblade works, you're not being honest with yourself, (or me) or it's a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

[Addendum] If you want to get into PVP tier lists, they apparently agree that magplar is stronger in 4 of 6 categories, — every case outside of solo play. This can almost 100% be attributed to the fact that magblades are simply better at escaping due to Shadowy Disguise/Shade. If you want to try playing a build that uses Dark Cloak instead of Shadowy Disguise though, I think you'll wind up wishing you were on a magplar. Shade without Shadowy Disguise simply prolongs the inevitable in the same way spamming heals does, and your damage output is even worse.

[edited for baiting]

Seriously, what is compelling you, who seem to love NBs, to come into a thread dedicated to discussing the problems Templars are having?

Number of times in the past 6 years I went into a "NBs have problems" thread to whine about my templar. Zero.

Like what's the motivation? Are you seriously going to sit there and try to convince me or that anyone who has mained a Templar that Templars really aren't all that bad this patch? Is this a joke? You don't main one, you don;t care about them, you haven't been invested in them for 6 years and thus just have an outsider's perspective of where templars have been in this game. Go ahead and prove to me and others your deep knowledge of templars. Tell me how their skills have changed since launch, when those changes happened, and how those changes have forced Templars to alter their gameplay. I'm guessing you can't. Just like I couldn't with NBs - which is why I don;t go in those NB threads and lecture them how they're wrong about their own class. And yet, here you are. Like, how much intellectual conceit does that take?

Yes, I want to get into PvP tier lists to disabuse an utterly moronic notion. Any tier list that makes it a point to mention "class is good in groups" means the class sucks. "Good in groups" means when it's left to its own class devices, it fails. Or shall we put on our Tinder profiles, "Hey, when I hang out with you and your friends, I'm a total blast. On nights where it's just us, well, umm, yeah, I good with groups though!" Oh boy, I can't wait to roll a Templar and join a zerg to hide my class's failings! It opens up so many options for viable PvP experiences! Eso devs: "Play as you want!" Eso non-templars: "Yeah, its totally cool that if templars play as they want they'll suck because they decent in groups!

If you want to act as a voice of reason against perceived bias, then a good place to start is know the class and not be biased yourself. There are numerous things Templar players say that I don't necessarily agree with. When I do raise these disagreements I don;t do it in a way that downplays the overall point (templars have major issues), don;t refer to some questionable justification for those problems (good in groups), don't try to marginalize templar problems (but, but look at NBs!), and with the knowledge I do have about the class, suggest an alternative solution to the problem (templars have major issues). Such a perspective would be valuable, but you didn;t go this route. Everything in that spoiler was "wah, Puncturing Sweeps is so much better than Swallow Soul, stop pointing out the disadvantages of evasion, and ZoS has ruined my NB skills." It's absolutely freaking amazing that when Templars point out the gameplay issues of Puncturing Strikes, you dismiss these and provide mathematical calculations of every single Strike hitting its target while at the same time whining to us that "Merciless is completely unreliable." This goes beyond cognitive dissonance.

Good grief, I just want this to end.

This is at least the second time (I want to say the third, actually) that I've had to explain this: I did not "go into a "Templars have problems" thread to whine about magblades," I made one [in my mind, innocuous] post in an effort to clarify something — namely that it's important to make distinctions and speak separately of PVP & PVE.

Here is me "whining about my magblade," as you so eloquently put it:

For all I was concerned, that was the end of it.

If it wasn't for two specific individuals going out of their way to drag me into a debate over whether templar is "OMG the weakest class in the game — bar none, without exception" then I likely wouldn't have made another post. They were the ones trying to compare magplar abilities 1:1 against magblades'. I simply responded. In fact one of them, the person I was responding to in the post that you quoted, has since been banned from the forum. For what, I do not know — but I am certainly not surprised.

As far as the tier lists are concerned? That was a templar's idea too:

West93 wrote: »

And if you don't agree, look around at stonethorn pvp tier class for both CP and NO CP, both magplar and stamplar is at bottom tier.

(Note, he is not one of the two I was referring to — he and I had a reasonable conversation.)

Whereas I, in fact, had this to say about tier lists:

Langeston wrote: »

As far as tier lists, to be honest I don't put a whole lot of stock in them at this point.

And I had this to say about the topic in general:

Langeston wrote: »

If you want to say templar needs a buff, fine. In fact, I agree.

Of course you'd know all that if you had bothered to read the thread.

So if you want to get big mad at someone, get big mad at the people that were actually instigating the argument. In fact, literally everything in your post can be directed towards them — all I was trying to do is make a distinction between PVE magblades and PVP magblades.

Regards

robpr

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Sanguinor2

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Meanwhile this is a pvp thread.

West93

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Who cares about target dummy.

Target dummies don't hit back and tbag you after.

robpr

Yes, but its not far from what you see on Cyro. Toppling and Jabs. Maybe Vigor. That class need a rework, but at this point, every class needs one.

Hakkanistorm

magtemplar is very bad after downgrading heal. Stamina was good in the last patch, but after breaking POTL any templar is just useless in noncp-pvp. Look at warden, it is absolutely better in everything. Compare beetles and potl? You just press and forget for 3 seconds, hitting all targets, turning to any target inflicting 5k. Hanging Potl you are forced to hit only this target and even if you fully attack it for 5 seconds, you will receive ~ 2k damage.

Skander

It's pretty funny that the templars can't hold their ground. Which is the thing templars should be good at

Drdeath20

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Meanwhile this is a pvp thread.

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Drdeath20

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Did he use even 1 templar skill?

Sanguinor2

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

Firstmep

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

Well most of stamplars overall power lies inside jabs, and yes the video is mostly just jabs spam with a couple of dots.

This is a result of overnerfing dots to the max. Its a simple rotation, but in reality most classes play similar in pve where you put whatever dots worth putting down/on and spam spam spam.

What the video doesnt say how bad the 1 second Burning Light duration can affect actual dps in a real encounter.

techyeshic

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

It's what I've been counter-complaoning about with the jabs complain threads. Jabs has become the only standout ability of templar so it's so heavily focused on. Class offers literally nothing else, especially now that it's the only way to maybe eventually proc burning light. And it's pretty much the only source of minor protection.

And it's not as great as people think. After running in to the top players, I saw how easy they get out of the way so you land half maybe. Then I was able to do it myself.

universal_wrath

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Meanwhile this is a pvp thread.

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Only japs

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

I can't speak much about templar performance in PvE as this video does it better. This guy got 100k just for using japs and barbed trap only and up to 125k if he uses other abilities. Templar in PvE is cheese.

Firstmep wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

Well most of stamplars overall power lies inside jabs, and yes the video is mostly just jabs spam with a couple of dots.

This is a result of overnerfing dots to the max. Its a simple rotation, but in reality most classes play similar in pve where you put whatever dots worth putting down/on and spam spam spam.

What the video doesnt say how bad the 1 second Burning Light duration can affect actual dps in a real encounter.

Burning light is a passive, even if it does damage, it should not do 25% of your over all damage in both PvE or PvP. There was a very good reason why implusion was removed from the game (I still miss it).

As for PvP, i cannot speak much about it as I rarepy play it. However, if templar players did not waste their time over buffing or nerfing 1 skill (japs) they would not have been im this state now. I rarely see templars "complain" about other abilities unless it is during PTS like ritual of retribution. After late PTS CLcylce was done, everybody stopped talking about it. Also, dark flare, sun shield, and other abilities? You keep on looking about *** and burning light and you discard other abilities, keep on doing that and you would get what you are looking for which is japs only.

Sanguinor2

techyeshic wrote: »

It's what I've been counter-complaoning about with the jabs complain threads. Jabs has become the only standout ability of templar so it's so heavily focused on. Class offers literally nothing else, especially now that it's the only way to maybe eventually proc burning light. And it's pretty much the only source of minor protection.

And it's not as great as people think. After running in to the top players, I saw how easy they get out of the way so you land half maybe. Then I was able to do it myself.

Oh I know all that. I played an elude stamsorc with steed after stopping magplar, Im well aware how easy you can dodge jabs^^.

Drdeath20

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

He used shimmering for increased weapon damage and then used the duel wield blood thirst for the heal.

Drdeath20

On a test dummy you get all the raid buffs and take zero damage. In dlc dungeons you get half the buffs and take damage.

West93

Jabs dont work like that in pvp.

For example I had a fight in pvp where out of 70jabs tick proc only 2 burninglight because opponent was constantly kitting and even using LOS in 1v1 and couldnt land all 4 jabs.

Pre burning light change it would definetly proced 15-25 times in that situation.

Firstmep

universal_wrath wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

Meanwhile this is a pvp thread.

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Only japs

robpr wrote: »

Meanwhile Stamplar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OPI1_yvTs

I can't speak much about templar performance in PvE as this video does it better. This guy got 100k just for using japs and barbed trap only and up to 125k if he uses other abilities. Templar in PvE is cheese.

Firstmep wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Did he even use 1 templar skill?

Didnt watch it but 99.9% sure jabs are gonna be used in the video. If you play stamplar without jabs you cripple yourself because so so much of templars damage is in jabs.

Well most of stamplars overall power lies inside jabs, and yes the video is mostly just jabs spam with a couple of dots.

This is a result of overnerfing dots to the max. Its a simple rotation, but in reality most classes play similar in pve where you put whatever dots worth putting down/on and spam spam spam.

What the video doesnt say how bad the 1 second Burning Light duration can affect actual dps in a real encounter.

Burning light is a passive, even if it does damage, it should not do 25% of your over all damage in both PvE or PvP. There was a very good reason why implusion was removed from the game (I still miss it).

As for PvP, i cannot speak much about it as I rarepy play it. However, if templar players did not waste their time over buffing or nerfing 1 skill (japs) they would not have been im this state now. I rarely see templars "complain" about other abilities unless it is during PTS like ritual of retribution. After late PTS CLcylce was done, everybody stopped talking about it. Also, dark flare, sun shield, and other abilities? You keep on looking about *** and burning light and you discard other abilities, keep on doing that and you would get what you are looking for which is japs only.

LOL not true.
Go in any Templar thread and you'll see ppl complain about Backlash being bugged, our crappy ultimates, terrible passives, low self healing etc.
Jabs isn't even on my top 10 skill that needs changing.
As for burning light, Templars have 0 % dmg modifiers and outside of burning light we have 2 damage passives.
The rest is crap like extra 2 seconds on a dot no uses or an ulti no one uses.
Burning light has to be strong or we need more ways to improve our dmg. Period.