PTS Update 28 - Feedback Thread for Frost Staff Adjustments

ESO_Nightingale

Interesting to see actual changes after a couple of weeks of nothing. We will have to see how the parses turn out and any other issues with how brittle is applied. But purely from the dps side, just looking at the outlook for next patch looks relatively bright! We are still missing a little damage that we asked for but a reversion is honestly good enough at least for now, and if chilled applies like they initially advertised it, it should work nicely for frost dps viability, especially in the future anyway. It still remains to be seen, but things are looking brighter for dps.

For tanks, it's a bit of a different story, the staff isn't really helpful, frost clench as a taunt still sucks, frost impulse definitely isn't very useful, and the projectile damage shield isn't overly helpful. I don't see any tanks actually running this in pve over a lightning staff, unless they are specifically chosen to run it for chilled uptime.

Fennwitty

Very glad the damage was restored. That was my biggest problem with the changes.

With these adjustments, we hope that damage dealers will feel less penalized than before when using Wall of Frost and its morphs, especially when utilizing the new Magicka restore function of Destruction Expert which will naturally occur when properly using Wall of Frost and its morphs.

I see the patch notes this morning emphasizes the magicka restore. That's true, the other changes will greatly boost magicka regeneration.

It actually opens up 'magicka-only' tank builds because tanks wouldn't need as much base HP -- they'd have lots of damage shields and near-unlimited magicka to cast them, without having to use Mage's Guild Balance to trade HP for Magicka. Since blocking is also still magicka from Tri-focus, I can theoretically make a tank that's almost mono-Magicka and still do OK. Seems somewhat boring to have to keep up a shield rotation but it's something to do at least.

Magicka tanks will continue to slot Elemental Drain more than before if they're monostat Magicka.

But the taunt is still a hamstring. It's not useable on Frost Clench.

Frost Clench
I *can* understand wanting to put a taunt somewhere in the Frost line to replace the Tri-Focus heavy attack taunt. Frost Clench was already built with a separate effect based on staff type, and is underused, so it's appealing to just throw the taunt there.

But adding taunt on top of existing Frost Clench doesn't align with the rest of the game. Not only is it inferior to Inner Fire, it's *counterproductive* for tanking.

*IF* moving Taunt to Elemental Susceptibility is planned for the future but requires code changes, I can accept Frost Clench as a 'temporary bandaid'. But existing Frost Clench will never be a good tank skill unless more's added. It needs a debuff other than immobilize.


The most obvious location for replacing the lost "free" taunt would be the unused morph of Elemental Susceptibility. Magicka tanks now often use Elemental Drain for the Breach + Magickasteal anyway. Give them a morph with Breach + Taunt with a comparable range to the "free" heavy attack taunt they lost, and with a skill many had slotted to begin with.

That will slightly reduce the now-massive self sustain Magicka they inherit with a Frost Staff if they don't apply Magickasteal all the time. Give it a cost too.

That gives parity and difference:
Pierce Armor has melee range, stamina cost, and absolutely strongest Breach.
Inner Fire is available to anyone, has long range, can be stamina or magicka, and directly deals damage and provides group synergy.
Elemental Susceptibility with Taunt would have long range, magicka cost, and not-quite-best Breach.

ESO_Nightingale

buttaface wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

Not at all interested in using a skill slot on cramped tank bars for ranged taunts when frost heavies did just fine while GIVING BACK RESOURCES at the same time instead of SPENDING THEM.

Uh...wut. Yeah, there were absolutely issues here. As a tank, going into a dungeon and having some DPS with no clue how the game works spamming heavies on a frost staff and overtaunting mobs is infuriating. It needed to go. Period. It was a terrible idea from the start.

[Quoted post was removed]

Sounds like you got lucky. Either way, having a passive that can negitively effect yourself and your group is poor design. Litterally no other passive in the game works this way as they all provide benefit no matter how small.

llBlack_Heartll

buttaface wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

well, it was an issue in several ways, it's just that the way they tried to fix it, involved throwing *** at the wall to see what sticked instead of listening to actual suggestions that thought about what would happen for more than 2 seconds. i have been saying for years to people saying "frost clench would make a good taunt" that it wouldn't be. and look what happened.

[Quoted post was removed]

The frost staff taunt was a terrible idea, so is having support benefits on the frost staff let alone in the "DESTRUCTION STAFF" Skill line. It just needs to go and ZOS figure something else for Magica Tanking.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

actosh

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Hey, what u could do to make us consider froststaff as tanking weapon would be the addition of minor breach into the Clench Taunt.

ESO_Nightingale

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Hey, what u could do to make us consider froststaff as tanking weapon would be the addition of minor breach into the Clench Taunt.

or, they could put it on elemental susceptibility instead. as clench is a horrific taunt as long as it has 15m range and an immobilise.

emilyhyoyeon

I would also like to see a different feature on ice impulse. No minor protection/defensive effect please. How about a relatively high chance to apply chilled on the targets that are hit by it?

ESO_Nightingale

AS OF PATCH 6.2.3

---

This list was created to be as useful as possible to developers and ZOS employees reading. as such I will ping @ZOS_GinaBruno as she is the creator of the thread.

---

Overview from this patch's changes

After the buffs to frost wall of elements and the fixing of the application of brittle, many of the people on the ESO frost discord are feeling hopeful about next patch, however, the staff is still not without it's problems. and they need to be fixed.
we can now focus on the other issues that the frost staff skills have. Those skills, not in any specific order, being Frost Clench, Frost Impulse (and it's morphs) and Icy Rage, with the passive skill tri-focus.

---

Frost Clench (and Elemental Susceptibility):

In short: Frost clench is not a useful taunt and is not the right target for a taunt. it should be shifted onto elemental susceptibility with an appropriate cost and duration.

As stated before, frost clench makes for an awful taunting skill. It has no redeeming qualities that should keep it as one either. When you taunt an enemy, you want to draw them towards you, this is not possible against enemies who can be immobilised, as it will root them to place for a couple of seconds, additionally, the skill has too short of a range in order to be useful, especially since it does not have any utility that is considered useful, the solution to the problem, is to revert frost clench back to it's original state, and to shift the taunt to elemental susceptibility. Doing this allows a taunt to be given to not just frost staff tanks, but also lightning staff tanks who wish to use it. All that would be required, is to replace it's current unused effects, and to add a cost to that skill, while reducing it's duration to the standards of a taunt, this skill would hold a middleground between having the penetration benefits of pierce armor, with the range of inner fire, but lacking the synergy and damage, this gives a more useful taunt to those who wish to use it, while reviving a dead morph.

Here is an example of a reversion:



and here is an example of the new taunt rework for Elemental Susceptibility:

---

Frost Impulse and it's morphs:

In short: Frost Impulse's unique tank utility effect will not be used whatsoever and should be replaced with an effect that focuses on dealing bonus damage

Frost Impulse's current effects are extremely underwhelming and not very useful. 5% mitigation via minor protection is a largely unnoticible effect that people will not be using going into next patch. The reason people take impulse is to deal a quick burst of area of effect damage, as such, a defensive utility focus on it does not mesh well whatsoever. the reason why Frost Wall and Lightning Wall can work with utility effects, are because they can still be somewhat useful to tanks without it. As it is an elemental ground area of effect skill that can proc weapon glyphs on cooldown without any extra input. in contrast, frost impulse offers nothing of substantial value to a tank because it is a singular tick of AoE damage. a tiny bonus to mitigation for a small duration of time does not make it worthwhile to give up a skill slot, especially when a far better skill for tanks exists, that already offers that same benefit, Turn Undead, Turn Undead is far better because it is a crowd control skill, that offers minor protection and a stamina recovery boost. The proper audience for frost impulse, is frost DPS, as they have reasons to use a skill like this, such as dealing area of effect damage to multiple enemies in an area, provided it was a good enough skill to slot. at this current time, it is not good enough, especially since shock impulse is an extremely attractive option that is well designed. suggestions to fix frost impulse are to give it either a decent bonus to damage, or give it some form of damage specific utility.

there are several options that can work for different reasons:

Option 1:

Explanation: This effect is specifically useful when you fight enemies that have been taunted, or crowd controlled in some form. this effect fits on a more tank and crowd control oriented weapon, and can be more useful for tanks and healers to run than a critical focus option.

Option 2:

Explanation: This effect allows frost Dps to run frost pulsar or frost ring instead of barbed trap or channeled acceleration and as such, it can be extremely useful, even outside of AoE encounters. personally, this is my most favoured option.

Option 3:

Explanation: This effect works as a form of pseudo execute similar to Fire Impulse. Since it always critically strikes against enemies at lower health, it can be quite helpful to spam in AoE fights especially in applying minor brittle, it's maximum damage output is more consistently output than either fire or shock impulse, but it cannot reach the peaks that the other elements can.

Option 4:

Explanation: This debuff is universally useful, but could be too strong if implemented as is. Minor Breach can be utilised by multiple types of players. tanks, dps and healers could actually use this skill if they wished to apply minor breach in a group, however it is probably better served to be given to another class or future skill. personally, this is my least favoured option.

---

Icy Rage:

In short: Icy Rage's current unique effect is not useful for anyone who would want to run it. it should either gain powerful utility, or benefit the caster's damage with a slotted effect

As it stands, Icy Rage's effect is not useful for anyone who wants to run it. it is a 250 cost ultimate that does damage, but less so than it's elemental counterparts, while also being on the weakest staff when it comes to damage. an immobilisation as it's effect only guarentees that weaker enemies will be trapped in the damage. this might sound good, but it isn't because when you cast icy rage, you use it on stationary enemies, usually bosses, to deal a ton of damage to them. an immobilisation does not help you to do this, especially since frost wall immobilises chilled enemies already, along with other skills that tanks will use to immobilise enemies, examples being gripping shards and choking talons.

there are several options that can help this ultimate be more useful:

Option 1:

Explanation: This effect will be highly sought after in PvE, and in my opinion, is a bit too powerful. I am also making the assumption that major brittle is being saved for next year's class/skill line as their group buff. In the case where i am wrong, I believe that this would be a decent target to place major brittle on, as it is an expensive ultimate that is currently not used for any reason, and only lasts for 7 seconds. Though i believe that should receive the same treatment that major vulnerability got on necromancer's frozen collosus. this is my least favoured option.

Option 2:

Explanation: This is the most simple change that could be made to this morph, it's uptime is effectively increased, because you can cast it earlier than other destruction staff ultimates, preferably costing about 210-220 ultimate. however, this would likely see the least practical use out of any of the suggestions as not many DPS would be running a frost staff outside of magicka warden which is still probably going to be running the bear ultimate as it makes up a significant portion of their damage.

Option 3:

Explanation: This effect is another way to give major force to a group, specifically tailored for frost dps. as it is Icy Rage, it already deals a good amount of damage, however, it will also increase the group's DPS for it's duration. I think ice rage giving major force to allies is less harmful than it giving major brittle to enemies, as major force already exists on warhorn, which also costs 250 ultimate. This will increase your groups uptime on major force, while also incentivising frost DPS. it's a utility ultimate that focuses on critical, which is definitely in frost's flavour.

Option 4:

Explanation: This specific suggestion is being suggested to increase the DPS output specifically for Frost DPS. what this change does is reward building a critical damage playstyle, while having this ultimate slotted. while also preventing the frost staff from becoming the best in slot for most PvE situations as it requires active sacrifice to run. This is my most favoured option.

---

Tri Focus

In short:This passive is still not worth taking when using a frost staff because it still uses magicka as the block cost.

The sole reason why this passive isn't worth taking is because tanks and dps don't want to waste magicka for blocking, as that is what stamina is for. (Note: I have heard that this change is possibly coming within this update or the update after, however it's been included as an issue anyway). there is no other passive in the game which people don't take, because every other passive provides benefit to the user, no matter how small.

Visual Interpretation of a Fix:

---

Thank you for reading. I'll continue to post these updates as further patches come along for the frost staff. Should any more bugs be found please let both ZOS and me know so i can compile them for future lists.

universal_wrath

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I would also like to see a different feature on ice impulse. No minor protection/defensive effect please. How about a relatively high chance to apply chilled on the targets that are hit by it?

It already does increase the chance for status affect of all elements. I believe a unique affect to it is to add whulrwind to it (aoe dot) around the caster. Also, I'm hoping that zos recognized that both elemental ring and suscepitability morphs do exist and almost non used by players.

ESO_Nightingale

universal_wrath wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I would also like to see a different feature on ice impulse. No minor protection/defensive effect please. How about a relatively high chance to apply chilled on the targets that are hit by it?

It already does increase the chance for status affect of all elements. I believe a unique affect to it is to add whulrwind to it (aoe dot) around the caster. Also, I'm hoping that zos recognized that both elemental ring and suscepitability morphs do exist and almost non used by players.

yeah, increasing chilled chance anymore isn't really a good idea imo, i think the best thing is to just make frost damage skills that people will actually want to use, any effect that increases damage that is befitting of frost would do fine, personally, i would like it to give the caster minor force for 16-20 seconds. Tank and healers won't ever use this skill unless it applies an amazing tank effect. so it's just better to preserve it for dps.

ESO_Nightingale

Not sure if we will see any further changes in the next incremental. Doesn't seem likely.

regime211

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Frost Staff changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What level/CP are you on Live?
• What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
• If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
• What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
• With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
• What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

CP: 602
Role: DPS
Build: DPS ice Mage
Favorite Changes: None until it goes live
Least Favorite: Unstable wall of elements change, it should keep it's snare.
Changes: If I can still DPS then I will continue to make ice mages. If not then I will just scrap my ideas.
Changes: Frost staff needs to be unique in it's own way and not be labeled just "Only" for tanking, it should be able to tank/DPS to give users the ability to choose between the two.
Feedback: Make ice element more versatile instead of just thinking it only good for tanking, it would be nice to not have to feel underwhelmed on using a frost staff due to it's low damage.

nettechgeeknerdb14_ESO

What level/CP are you on Live?
400ish

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Healer/DPS - I disliked tanking with sword and shield. I wish to be able to mage tank with staves.

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
I only used it on my backbar as a tank for the brief period i was trying it.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Taunt switch seemed like a very good move. Minor Protection on a 6 second ability seems not useful.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
I really want frost staff to be a replacement either directly or indirectly for sword and shield. Mage Tanking is something i really want to happen, but currently we're still missing a lot.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
With the Value changes to breach across the board minor/major/potions. It seems pretty apparent that in order for mage tanking to be viable at higher tiers, we need some source of Minor Breach, Absorb Magicka, Deflect Bolts, and maybe a direct source of Maim.

Do you have any other general feedback?
The idea is to make the frost staff more viable for tanking, but you're still falling very short of what it needs. The Damage shields help solve a small portion of this, but sword and shield is still a good bound ahead of frost staff. The biggest problem i see is the breach change. Having 9k pen on 1 ability makes it's counter morph useless, and trumps any option other than sword and shield as a tank. Minor breach needs to appear other places, or be taken off Pierce Armor.

In order for a frost staff tank to match a sword an board a frost staff user has to use 3 global cooldowns (frost clench, weakness to elements, power of the light) to accomplish what a one hand and shield user can accomplish in 1 with pierce armor. That option is only available for templars too, so every other class is worse off. They have to sacrifice a 5 piece set just to get minor breach.

Other notable tank abilities that are not available to a frost staff tank: Heroic Slash for Maim and Min Heroism, Absorb Magic for self healing and mitigation,

All in all, I like the frost staff changes, but I think it needs a bit more to be a viable option at all levels of play.

FoolishOptimist

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549679/poll-frost-staff-taunt-options

Please take the time to voice your opinion in the poll. This will be useful to show the devs hard numbers of public opinions towards the Frost Staff taunt.

ESO_Nightingale

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549679/poll-frost-staff-taunt-options

Please take the time to voice your opinion in the poll. This will be useful to show the devs hard numbers of public opinions towards the Frost Staff taunt.

It's been a few hours and while there aren't too many votes, it seems like the overwhelming consensus so far is elemental susceptibility is the prefered option.

kojou

What level/CP are you on Live?

~1480

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?

All 3, depending on need, but primary DPS and Tank

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?

I have only used it for tank, and only if I don't have a Shock staff for a set and I have a frost staff.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

Removal of taunt from the heavy attack.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?

I might use it on my tank more now to proc minor brittle.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

In general I would prefer to see it changed to a viable DPS weapon and all tanking aspects removed.

Do you have any other general feedback?

Before It was a tank weapon I used it as a solo DPS because I liked the effects and animations better, but stopped using it once the build that I was playing with was no longer fun. Frost staff tanking in general has always felt like putting a square peg in a round hole to me. If the block animation could at least be changed to make a shield wall blocking then I could believe it from an immersion standpoint, but I could never wrap my mind around using a "destruction staff" for tanking.

ESO_Nightingale

Looks like we didn't get any more changes which i kind of expected. But it is quite unfortunate.

llBlack_Heartll

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Looks like we didn't get any more changes which i kind of expected. But it is quite unfortunate.

yeeeeee, very unfortunate.
Disappointing that Unstable Wall wasn't changed to a full DPS skill, at the very least. It would of made a big difference but looks like we are stuck with this crap.
Boat missed here I think, no feed back even considered.

ESO_Nightingale

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Looks like we didn't get any more changes which i kind of expected. But it is quite unfortunate.

yeeeeee, very unfortunate.
Disappointing that Unstable Wall wasn't changed to a full DPS skill, at the very least. It would of made a big difference but looks like we are stuck with this crap.
Boat missed here I think, no feed back even considered.

well, they reverted the damage loss you're right, they didn't listen to any other suggestions that would have helped the weapon's sorry state a lot.

Jameson18

Why not change the impulse morph to mimic Brawler morph from 2h line?

Magicka tanking seems to be a higher damage and debuff style tank with alternative options to block. Warden and Necromancer, Warden who definitely synergizes with frost staff more, does not have a class damage shield.

As a magicka tank on my warden, i have been stuck using Senchal with vines feeding the green balance passive, to keep stamina up to use the undaunted shield. I mean, it works phenominally, but I wouldn't mind other options so I can expand HP since the blocking (and currently heavy attacking) are not quite as efficient as SnB.

It doesn't have to be 100% the same as SnB. But making it a viable alternative would be nice.

Also, I agree. Elemental Susceptibility should be the taunt morph. Frost Clench is 100% counter productive. Especially since the warden portal is mostly junk and a mag tank trying to use silver leash (non-DK) struggles to pull/gather packs to begin with.

Semah

What level/CP are you on Live?
CP 820.

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Tank > DPS > Healer.

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
I use a staff backbar on my tank build. I vastly prefer frost to lightning, although frost is currently suboptimal. Indeed, one of my hopes from this patch (which has yet to be realized) was for frost backbar to become competitive with lightning on a tank.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
No more accidental frost staff heavy taunt in PUGs is wonderful. I do appreciate that you are trying to fix real issues; this is a big quality of life improvement.

My least favorite change is, frankly, the lackluster nature of everything else. The offensive-support component of the new design requires being on frost bar heavily, and frost abilities are lacking compared to both active and passive 1h+shield skills.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
My playstyle is unlikely to be significantly affected unless either (1) minor brittle can be provided on backbar or (2) frost staff abilities (active and passive) become more appealing. Separately, a dual-frost tank build raises hard questions about blocking resources which others have already mentioned above.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
I'd like to see the staff have a well-defined role, rather than being "the tank staff", "the support staff", and "a DPS with some support staff" all at once. Perhaps this could be done by adding tanking traits to frost via the heavy armor passives revitalize and rapid mending?
Many of the changed abilities seem more useful to a "support DPS" than a tank. Impulse, for instance, isn't worth running (and expensive recasting) for 6 seconds of minor protection -- especially post-nerf.

zvavi

1. 810+
2. Dd+heal+tank
3. Not much.
4. Favourite and least favourite: brittle and brittle,
Let me explain. on one hand it is an interesting new mechanic. On the other it requires you to slot frost staff. Why is it an issue? Because you are crippling frost damage behind lightning and fire! Neither burning dot nor concussion minor vulnerability requires the specific staff to be slotted. Being forced to slot frost staff for the buff will only push it more towards support roles.
5. Yes, on a tank.
6. I would change one of the passives to be "when frost staff equipped you get 1.5 the effect from brittle" and make brittle non frost staff exclusive.
7. The "taunt" we got for frost staff after patch is literally worse than the undaunted one in any possible way, there is no reason for it to exist. Also plz make a way to get a proper taunt on non s/b for level 10, where you unlock dungeons. Frost tanks can't tank dungeons in level 10, or even 20 after the change.

josiahva

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The sole reason why this passive isn't worth taking is because tanks and dps don't want to waste magicka for blocking, as that is what stamina is for. (Note: I have heard that this change is possibly coming within this update or the update after, however it's been included as an issue anyway). there is no other passive in the game which people don't take, because every other passive provides benefit to the user, no matter how small.

Speak for youself. I LOVE having the option to use magicka to block...swapping back and forth between magicka and stamina as needed. I suppose I run a much higher magicka pool than most tanks...but having the option allows for near infinite sustain without gimmicks like Balance....one fight in particular that comes to mind that this passive is a lifesaver for is the last boss of vDSA where I spend 80% of the fight away from the rest of the group and get no support whatsoever, all the while having to hold 4 bosses(with lower damage groups)

Firstmep

Not really suprised that the feedback for frost staff changes were ignored.

Hopefully in a year or so the team will realise that what they did this patch really didnt make a difference for frost staff.

ESO_Nightingale

josiahva wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The sole reason why this passive isn't worth taking is because tanks and dps don't want to waste magicka for blocking, as that is what stamina is for. (Note: I have heard that this change is possibly coming within this update or the update after, however it's been included as an issue anyway). there is no other passive in the game which people don't take, because every other passive provides benefit to the user, no matter how small.

Speak for youself. I LOVE having the option to use magicka to block...swapping back and forth between magicka and stamina as needed. I suppose I run a much higher magicka pool than most tanks...but having the option allows for near infinite sustain without gimmicks like Balance....one fight in particular that comes to mind that this passive is a lifesaver for is the last boss of vDSA where I spend 80% of the fight away from the rest of the group and get no support whatsoever, all the while having to hold 4 bosses(with lower damage groups)

I'm not just speaking for myself. I'm speaking for a lot of people who tank. They don't want to use their magicka to block with, because most of their tanking skills cost magicka.