PTS Update 28 - Feedback Thread for Frost Staff Adjustments

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the Frost Staff changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What level/CP are you on Live?
• What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
• If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
• What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
• With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
• What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

ESO_Nightingale

Level: Cp810
Role: DPS
What abilities?: Force Pulse, Unstable Wall of Frost, Frost Reach, Frost Pulsar(very rarely), Icy Rage

Favourite: minor brittle. We finally got the crit damage we asked for. Albeit in a different way, works extremely well for frost magden.

Least Favorite: unstable wall of elements change(specifically for the morph)

With the changes i feel like frost magdens will finally have a place in endgame content for pve. However there are a few issues with the changes

Changes i would like to see: unstable wall of frost be buffed from it's original damage by 10% to be closer on par with other dps walls instead of wrongfully being nerfed by 25%. It shouldn't lose it's damage, but instead losing the projectile damage shield. That effect should be reserved for just frost blockade, and blockade should also gain the snare back. Additionally I would have put the taunt on elemental susceptibility instead. As that morph needs help and frost clench immobilizes enemies stopping them from coming closer for a while.

EDIT (09/25/2020):
Changes I would like to see (continued): After testing more (my pts template character now has over 24 hours of time played), I've found that frost impulse is wholly underwhelming because minor protection on an aoe damage skill doesn't help especially with it's low duration, in keeping with the theme of pulsar, and with the other impulse specific elemental damage buff effects, it might be interesting to instead add minor breach(after it receives some tuning) or another effect, possibly increasing damage by a high amount against enemies effected by snares, immobilisations or stuns. these effects allow you (as the caster) to deal more damage to the enemy while keeping with the theme of the frost staff(being damage support and soft cc). I'm also going to reiterate and expand on the frost clench situation and I've voiced my same opinion in the past before this patch, but frost clench makes for an awful taunt. it stops the enemy from coming towards you as a tank, it has 15 meters of range and is completely outclassed by other taunts, a better solution is still elemental susceptibility, as that morph gives major breach like pierce armor and has needed to be reworked for several years, adding the taunt to that skill instead of frost clench and removing it's current effects would make it far more useful for not just tanks using a frost staff, but also tanks who are still using a lightning staff. add a 4.2k magicka cost to the skill, and reduce it's duration to 15 seconds to balance it as it has the large benefit of a 28 meter range over pierce armor, but a far steeper cost and not as much penetration as pierce armor, it also doesn't have damage or a synergy like inner fire.

General feedback: I've been one of the leading advocates for frost damage for a long time and after years of frustration, i feel like the way this was handled was actually not too bad. It could have been a lot worse. So thanks for that! Also icy rage still feels quite bad compared to it's elemental counterparts.

JohnOfMarkarth

1) 783

2) DD (+Tank) (Will use DD instead of DPS not to confuse the two in this, cus its importante)

3) I dont.

4) Favorite: Minor Brittle, Least favorite: Ele-Wall and Minor Brittle, reasons for the paradox:
- Minor Brittle is something that adds DPS, but its in no way something that makes FrostyStaff DDs more viable. Instead it pushes frostystaves into healer/off-tank support role. As it provides extra damage to the entire team and only requires one frost staff ever present, as any next instance of frost staff in the team is... redundant. Its a nice bonus. Which is the thing i like. But it stabs any purpose of frost staves as DPS, which was promised in Dev Update
- Weakening the frost wall's damage was another stab at the previous promise. If the former was a kidnestab this was a heart stab.

- All other additions enforce FrostyStaves as support. It doesnt even help main tanks.

5) Sadly I dont, I was excited, wanted to finally see a frost-warden dps be viable. But I was turned down cold. Pun semi-intended.

6) - Increase wall of ice's damage instead of lowering it
- make frost impulse deal 5% more damage with each cast up to 20% for 3s instead of minor protection which is already easily sourced elsewhere.
- If you wanna make destructive touch actually worthy taunt, give it Major Breach
- If you wanna make it a bit more supportive, perhaps you could give Elemental Rage lowered damage but also make it cheaper and give it Minor Staminasteal for 15s (And make it the only source of such. Like a homage to other elder scrolls, where frost damage drained enemies of stamina)

7) At least you looked into frost staffs briefly.

CaffeinatedMayhem

What level/CP are you on Live?

CP 810

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?

All 3, mostly tank and DPS.

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?

Magicka Warden DPS

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

Favorite - removing the taunt from heavy attack
Least Favorite - decreasing Wall of Elements damage (why?)

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?

No and never. Magicka tanking is a fun idea, but awful in practice. Magicka block still costs a lot more than stamina block, and block cost reduction glyphs still did not apply last time I looked. Even being able to regenerate magicka while blocking does not offset this cost, which is why you don't see full magicka tanks running vet trials on leaderboards.

Frost staff as back bar for support... well, I guess someone will compute if Brittle makes up for losing Off-balance (concussiuon) from lightning staff, but since I'm not a fan of tanks with back bar staves, doesn't matter to me which one I have to use.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

That damage shield is ridiculous and useless, it should go.

Do you have any other general feedback?

What I'm more upset about is that these changes make frost staff for warden's (you know, that class with their only significant damage increases coming from CHILLED... and only 1 skill that can be used in PvE DPS to apply chilled) Really? Look, I get that the devs have always hated warden in PvE, and it's a support class. But also... no other class in ESO works that way, being relegated to only certain group functions. I love wardens. I have 3, 1 PvE, 2 PvP. I don't tank with Warden becauseI find it boring. I don't heal with warden because also, I find it boring. I DPS with warden because I love it. Kinda sad that my favorite DPS class is doomed to be crap. For 4 years running.

Devs! Why do you consistently refuse to re-work Warden damage passives? With these changes, 2 of Winter's Embrace passives become useless for damage, and 1 was already useless for support. Glacial Presence - good for support and DPS.
Piercing Cold - good for DPS... what was the point for support? Tanks and healers aren't expected to utilize self-damage-buffs.
So, Warden is back to being the only class that does not have any passives that boost damage output. Unless we use a staff that gives us a 10-18% damage hit up front. While every other class in the game has at least 1 passive that directly increases damage.

I mean, glad I got sick of the elitism in trials guilds, because I'm sure not getting into one now.

Edit: ok, let's talk about Advanced Species passive - 1% for every animal skill slotted... same as sorc's yes? Oh, did you forget Sorc has a bunch of other passives that increase damage way more? I don't think any meta PvE build specifically stacks class skills on a bar to increase damage. Also, The bear doesn't do that much for PvE or PvP (imo). I hate all pets, and don't even use them on magsorc. My magsorc still out DPS' my magden by far, and can run in trials with ease.

Why is magicka warden the red-headed step child of ESO? Why is this class doomed to be terrible? It's not that people aren't good with warden, it's that the class is geared around "tankyness"....and CP can't fully make up for what it's lacking.

IonicKai

Devs did put in an explicit comment that frost staff was supposed to support mag tank. These changes represent that however it's almost a punishment to a tank because to get that buff guaranteed you pretty much need to front bar it and control your proc of the chilled status.

ESO_Nightingale

IonicKai wrote: »

Devs did put in an explicit comment that frost staff was supposed to support mag tank. These changes represent that however it's almost a punishment to a tank because to get that buff guaranteed you pretty much need to front bar it and control your proc of the chilled status.

this hopefully means that frost dps will be viable as they should be better at applying chilled. which i see as a good thing, because tanks suck up enough utility as is.

vgabor

While the changes to frost staff are a step in the right direction, it does not take account a few important considerations:

1) The main point of the s&b line taunt that it applies armor reduction as well. We already have a magicka skill which does taunt (inner fire) what need for the frost staff tanking is a skill which taunt and reduce armor. It would be much better that instead adding taunt to Destructive Clench it would be added to Elemental Susceptibility (the morph of Weakness to Elements which nobody currently uses) so it would mirror the s&b skill with taunt and reduce armor. Also since clench actually used by PvPers, taunt on that would lead to the same accidental taunt issue like the tri-focus right now, better to add taunt to a skill which nobody uses than to one what is in use.

2) The frost Wall of Elements was used currently by tanks exactly because of the snare it provides. Removing that is a mistake, crowd control is much more important to tanks than applying some weak shield. Especially because applying damage shield from an ability placed on enemies is conceptional nonsense as the non tank group members not going to mix up with the mob but staying apart so they are outside of the wall area and not going to get shielded anyway. (and even the tank is outside of the wall area since it is placed in the front of the caster...) Instead of shield a good effect to be added to frost wall would be Minor Breach (which is actually useful for both tanks and DDs) so instead of adding shield to group members the frost staff should apply snare and minor breach to the enemies.

3) Currently the frost staff not used by DDs since the lightning and fire staff provides higher damage output. The damage reduction makes frost staff even less desirable by DDs, this change should be dropped entirely. Rather the frost staff need slightly buffed for DDS not nerfed, and the minor breach would do exactly that since it useful for DDs as well.

dcam86b14_ESO

What level/CP are you on Live?
50/ 1100

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Templar Healer

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
I run false gods and winter's respite in pve and brightthroats and eternal vigor in pvp
I tested wall of elements and pulsar on PTS

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Favorite was wall of elements as it shielded and second would be pulsar but not for the damage, just the minor protection buff. both worked well for my healer build. least favorite was the lower dmg on wall of elements

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
I would use it in pve/pvp for the shield buff and dmg buff to the team. this could actually be really bad for pvp due to ball groups only having to run 1 frost staff user to buff the dmg output on their team albeit 6 ppl.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
lower the crit dmg it provides, buff the actual dmg WOE does in order for it to be picked up by DPS.

Do you have any other general feedback?
as of right now the ice shield should be a little more tinted in color or it can be missed with all the brightness happening around it.

Rungar

cp 810+
tank/healer

the only use i can see for this configuration of the frost staff is for a healer frontbar in dungeon content instead of a lightning staff just for the brittle debuff with the shields being marginally useful since they would be free. I dont think any tank or dps will use it other than novelty because of the non backbar limitation in its current form.

as mentioned above the taunt needs to be on the armor debuff( elemental susceptibility) or no one will use it to tank... even then it still couldnt compete with the new pierce armor but it would at least have a backbar use as a ranged taunt instead of inner fire.

to be honest you should of given up on the tanking staff idea and give the mages back their 3rd weapon choice focused on the critical aspect where the other staves focus on aoe and single target.

BronzebeakMoa

CP 909 - Magden/Stamden DPS main in both PvP and PvE.

I currently use Frost Staff for Wall of Elements and Frost Clench in PvP on my Magden for CC and for the blocking passives.

I think these changes are interesting overall for Frost Staffs in PvE support roles, but those are not my main roles, and I want to offer some perspective on Frost Staves used in PvP for DPS and utility.

I am very sad that the snare effect on the Wall of Frost might be removed. Frost Staff WoE snare on chilled proc is a HUGE part of the current identity of the Frost Staff utility in PvP that I think should be preserved. PLEASE consider adding the new effects without taking this away.

I am excited to take advantage of the newly buffed shield passive combined with the new magicka absorb passive as a back bar defensive option for my PvP builds. HOWEVER, without the snare passive on Wall of Elements, I might not use the Frost Stave over 1H and Shield. I want to use Wall of Elements for it's new shield effect in PvP, but I don't think the skill will be worth slotting in small groups without the snare.

Surely the damage nerf is a big enough tradeoff for the new damage shield to leave the Wall of Elements snare passive in place? Would it be possible to decrease the damage even further as an additional balancing effect so that both utility features can be included? Would it be possible to have the snare associated with one morph and the shield associated with the other? I hope these ideas can be considered.

Regarding Minor Brittle, I like this a lot, but I think it should also be able proc if chilled is applied by a Frost Staff ability (like Wall of Elements) while not holding the Frost Staff (while swapped to your other bar) similar to the way you can proc a back bar enchant from your Wall while on your front bar. Otherwise, I don't think this effect will be procced very often because I think Frost Staves will still be a back bar utility weapon in both PvE and PvP.

Thank you for giving the Frost Staff some love.

YandereGirlfriend

What level/CP are you on Live?
810

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
All roles but primarily Tank and DPS

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
I have a dedicated Frost Warden that attempts to use exclusively Frost skills and sets: Icy Conjuror, Elemental Succession, and Blackrose Frost Staff and Maelstrom Frost Staff. I use Frost Destructive Reach, Wall of Frost, and Frost Elemental Ring as my spammable (which is wildly inefficient and I only inflict this on myself to keep with the theme).

I also have a Frost Warden tank that uses Frozen Watcher and a Frost Staff back-bar but that is otherwise keeps with the standard tanking meta.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
My favorite change is the new Brittle de-buff.

I also like the idea of Frost Clench becoming a taunt but double Frost Staff tanks need access to more than just a taunt in order to do their job effectively.

Specifically, it needs to compete with the Sword and Board skill line that efficiently (which is very important due to bar-space crunch on tanks) provides access to: a taunt, Major Breach, Minor Maim, and Minor Heroism (and with Minor Breach to be added by the patch). Even with these changes, Frost Staff has no way to compete with that.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
Sadly, the changes to the skills do not move the needle for me on either my tank or my DPS characters. I enjoy the addition of Brittle but the Wall of Frost change feels random and unnecessary and, as mentioned, the Frost Clench change provides no advantage compared to established taunts.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

• Frost Clench should taunt apply Minor Heroism to the caster for 15 seconds so that Frost Staff tanks may secure that needed self-buff that they would be otherwise locked out of.
• Make Elemental Susceptibility (a virtually unused morph of Weakness to Elements) change in function depending upon which type of Destruction Staff is equipped, as most other Destruction Staff skills do. For the Frost Staff, have it apply Minor Maim to the target so that double Frost Staff tanks may also have reliable access to that crucial de-buff.
• Make changes to Elemental Ring such that it is able to become a viable Frost spammable option. Honestly, the game needs this (Shock Staff users also need a spammable). If this is too much, then consider changing the Blackrose Destruction Staff to have similar functionality to the old Master's Staff: that it increases the damage of the skill and lowers its cost, which de-facto allows its use as a spammable. The current Blackrose special set effect is wonky and little-used so few feathers would be ruffled by such a change. And heaps of Pyromancers, Cryomancers, and Shock Mages would be grateful that they finally have access to a class-independent elemental spammable option.

Do you have any other general feedback?
The Shock Staff, like the Frost Staff before it), is in similar need of a re-imagining now that Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance are obtainable by so many other common means.

The Shock Staff brings nothing to the table for damage dealers that can even remotely compete with the Fire Staff (and now Frost Staff) and, as mentioned, it has lost its group utility value due to the proliferation of other Minor Vulnerability sources.

Perhaps consider creating another Brittle-like named de-buff (called, say, "Superconductive") that increases elemental damage done (by, say, 10%) to a target when Concussion procs while a Shock Staff is being held.

ArzyeL

What level/CP are you on Live?
c810+
What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Mostly DPS but Tank/Healer as well sometimes.
If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
Frost Warden for DPS and Warden Frost Tank.
What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Brittle is great for both DPS and Support roles. I don't like the change to Wall of Frost.
With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
My Frost DPS & Tank Builds will continue using the Staff, which is now more effective. I might start using it as a healer as well.
What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
I'd like to see a boost of damage when using Frost Staff or at least a bigger boost to Frost Damage on Warden's Passives. After all Warden is the Frost Damage Class to me.
Do you have any other general feedback?
I think the damage of Wall of Frost should be on par with the other elements. This will give Frost Staff a better overall damage and make it even better for DPS.

Aznarb

1st : Thank you for finally giving love to frost stave users !

2sd :

What level/CP are you on Live?
=> 1200+

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
=> Tank & Healer = PvE

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use ?
=> I use it on back bar from some Tank, but for my Templar Tank I use it in both bar tanking on magicka.
Dual staff infused allow me to use two glyph fully instead of only 1 on back bar like most tank do.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff ?
=> Favorite : Wall of element shield + faster heavy atk with 700ms + Real shield on heavy attack + Minor Bristle ! That awesome !
=> Meh : Destructive clench as Taunt. It's good and bad at the same time. Good cuz it's able me to proc my glyph easily on main bar. Bad cuz the Undaunted skill : Inner Fire Taunt to 28m, 15m is way to little and more important : have a stamina morph ! When you block on Magicka pool you don't want to use lot of magicka for skill. Same for Tank that use stamina to block

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle ?
=> It will not change my dual frost stave playstyle, but clearly gonna make it way more efficient at fun to use !

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities ?
=> The change you made on Clench is sadly not good enough to slot it and would have love a stam taunt morph from this one to proc the main bar glyph easier. I'll stick to inner fire stamina morph for now.
I'll add that the fact you morphed the 2 breach/fracture debuff in one made me a free bar slot to add something more for my team !

Do you have any other general feedback ?
=> Heavy attacking is very important for Tank, I can't really see how long will be 700ms, but I hope it's way faster than the actual unusable frost heavy attack, especially if we want to use the new buff shield passive !
Also frost stave for Tank lack of 2 thing the 1h&s have : projectile mitigation OR movement speed bonus while blocking ! Not both, shield still need to have something unique.


EDIT :
In regarde of previous post I'll add some more accurate information :
Frost stave DON'T need access to major breach/fracture because :

Major Breach:
Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Major Breach now affects both Physical and Spell Resistance equally.

Slot Ele drain : done.
And if they don't change it, you can also use Caltrop for AoE Breach ! And it impact you way less than Shield user cuz it cost stam and you block on magicka (I already use if for fracture my healer put breach with drain anyway).

Minor main : when you chill a target they get minor main + some negligible dot dmg + snare. Maybe a buff on the minor main proc ? But so far it's fine from my experience with dual frost stave Tank.

We've minor Bristle now, so we don't need to have minor heroism too, but keep it as "unique" buff from 1H&S, the point is not to made everyone using staff but to add diversity to the game.

Hope it's more clear now how magicka Tank actually play.
Work already in any 4man HM and all vTrial I've try. Need to try vKA and vCR+3.

Onefrkncrzypope

What level/CP are you on Live?
810

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Tank

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
I use the staff as a backbar weapon while tanking for chilled during the magwardens meta and in portal tanking in vcrhm. I would use elsewhere but I'm in a Gryphon heart prog.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Brittle is a unique buff that both a DPS can use or a tank so it is welcomed thought out change. The forced frontbar leaves the realm of thought out and into a burden. You are either forcing a dps or a tank to forgo better front bar weapons. Its lame and obtrusive. Proccing chilled with a back bar ice wall would be great for tanks and dps and hurt neither to terribly. The ice mage players can still run an ice staff on the front bar and the player that want to bring something to group won't be put off by an ice bb.
You games passives don't allow players to run full ice especially not after the current nerfs. A tank or healing will just be forced to play the way they don't want to because this is a very strong buff.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
I will be forced to sit on a ice staff while trying to proc chilled and probably be on a struggle bus.
What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Removing taunt from heavy attack removes that flavor. Yes everyone thinks it's weird but hey, we already have an instant cast ranged taunt. Having a ice staff meet you could have free bar space instead of having inner rage.

Do you have any other general feedback
You are inches away from a good change. Don't force tanks and healers to main bar an ice staff. A dps can't. Backbar meta change is nice. Front bar isnt.

Somewhere

I am 810 cp and I normally play a damage dealer but I only use a frost staff in pvp. In pvp I use a frost staff on my magDK on the front bar and a 1h/shield backbar so I can block effectively no matter which bar i am on.

I do not currently use any frost abilities as the only one worth using for a while was wall of frost and I just never bothered.

I really like the minor brittle change but I think my favorite is the Frost Impulse. Minor protection may have been reduced a bit but 5% mitigation for you and your group is still really good, especially since the class I play most doesn't have incredibly easy access to protection. The damage reduction on the wall of frost seems unnecessary. The other two walls automatically do more damage and there are plenty of people using wall of frost as damage dealers given this is such an essential DD skill.

I'd like to see some additional functionality added Destructive Reach. The impulse changes were fantastic but all versions of destructive reach, not just frost reach, are underwhelming weak DOTs even with the low chance of providing a status condition. The skill seems underbudgeted in power compared to other single target dots.

YandereGirlfriend

@Aznarb You can't rely on Chilled alone to proc your Minor Maim since that's putting yourself at the mercy of RNG and will result in up-times lower than simply using Heroic Slash. You're also missing out on Minor Heroism (and Minor Breach when the patch hits) compared to using traditional Sword and Board. Why would you want Frost Staff tanks to have these obvious weaknesses?

@Onefrkncrzypope You miss the point of the Frost Staff changes. Frost Staff DPS users (and Shock Staff users) want to be able to use something other than a Flame Staff to DPS with. Simply punting Brittle to the Support roles completely undermines the purpose of the changes and reinforces the status quo of Flame Staff supremacy.

VaxtinTheWolf

• What level/CP are you on Live?
  Lv50, 1000+ CP.
  
  
• What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
  Mostly tanks, one healer for now, I don't really like playing DPS in this game.
  
  
• If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
  Backbar Frost Staff on Magicka based Nightblade tank and on a Magicka focused Warden Tank. The only ability really used is Wall of Elements for the SNARE effect on trash fights, and enchantment proc on bosses.
  
  
• What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
  Favorite is not having randos stealing my taunt and making my role more difficult than it has to be. The 'Minor Brittle' effect seems interesting.
  
  Least favorite is that the snare was removed and I no longer have a way to slow down enemies on my NB tank. Not enough was done, it's missing features that 1H&S has and multiple skills still don't feel very relevant for tanking. You still take a block speed penalty and it's missing Minor Breach for example, but if that is supposed to be an intended trade off then just speak up and say it.
  
  
• With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
  I couldn't find any dungeons to tank so I joined Harrowstorms? (Ive never done tried on live before due to lack of DLC) instead.
  I used it as both a front bar and back bar weapon. I never used frost clench to taunt, Inner Fire is just better as a magicka specific taunt. 28m and Synergy compared to 15m and a root that wont work on bosses anyway. Inner fire even does slightly more damage than Clench.
  
  I tried to use Elemental Drain but it's always VERY cramped on my bars for skills I have to prioritize to be effective at my role in the way I have it set up. Theoretically, 23 seconds of Breach seems really nice, but I can't comfortably place it anywhere without it feeling clunky or taking up a slot better suited for another skill instead, unless I use the slot that was just previously freed from Pierce Armor.
  
  I do not see myself using Frost Elemental Ring on my tank either due to the aforementioned space restrictions. Especially not for a 6 second Minor buff. The ability still does not look appealing in it's current state.
  
  As for the Wall of Frost shield, It's basically a lesser version of Warden's Frost Shield, but applies to the group. I did notice that the extra shield effect from Unstable Wall seems to be attached to your character, and potentially has a 15 meter range of application? I can also move far away from the original location and the secondary shield would still apply, however the additional shield after the wall itself ends seems redundant. You'll should be having max uptime on this ability in an ideal situation, so that should mean the second smaller shield isn't ever actually used because the first will be reapplied anyway, making the additional proc pretty useless.
  
  
• What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
  Add the taunt effect to Elemental Susceptibility and remove the refreshing on damage effect. Remove taunt from Frost Clench and add Minor Breach instead.
  
  Add the snare back to Frost Elemental Blockade. Remove the niche frost shield from Unstable Frost Wall, increase this morph's damage and give it another mechanic to do even more damage to immobilized enemies.
  
  I liked the idea that Pulsar could become an elemental themed PBAoE similar to Dual Weild's Blade Cloak with unique effects.
  
  
• Do you have any other general feedback?
  Really start listening to what the players who will actually have to deal with the changes you decide to shove on us have to say. Stop being so dang afraid to implement mechanics and ideas that we suggest even if they were highly supported for months. Communicate! Make it like a Q&A where you respond to larger concerns with the thought process behind your forced choice objectives. Isn't that what developer comments were supposed to be? However there is a severe lack of those in the notes where there definitely should be one accompanying a change.
  

ESO_Nightingale

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

• What level/CP are you on Live?
  Lv50, 1000+ CP.
  
  
• What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
  Mostly tanks, one healer for now, I don't really like playing DPS in this game.
  
  
• If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
  Backbar Frost Staff on Magicka based Nightblade tank and on a Magicka focused Warden Tank. The only ability really used is Wall of Elements for the SNARE effect on trash fights, and enchantment proc on bosses.
  
  
• What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
  Favorite is not having randos stealing my taunt and making my role more difficult than it has to be. The 'Minor Brittle' effect seems interesting.
  
  Least favorite is that the snare was removed and I no longer have a way to slow down enemies on my NB tank. Not enough was done, it's missing features that 1H&S has and multiple skills still don't feel very relevant for tanking. You still take a block speed penalty and it's missing Minor Breach for example, but if that is supposed to be an intended trade off then just speak up and say it.
  
  
• With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
  I couldn't find any dungeons to tank so I joined Harrowstorms? (Ive never done tried on live before due to lack of DLC) instead.
  I used it as both a front bar and back bar weapon. I never used frost clench to taunt, Inner Fire is just better as a magicka specific taunt. 28m and Synergy compared to 15m and a root that wont work on bosses anyway. Inner fire even does slightly more damage than Clench.
  
  I tried to use Elemental Drain but it's always VERY cramped on my bars for skills I have to prioritize to be effective at my role in the way I have it set up. Theoretically, 23 seconds of Breach seems really nice, but I can't comfortably place it anywhere without it feeling clunky or taking up a slot better suited for another skill instead, unless I use the slot that was just previously freed from Pierce Armor.
  
  I do not see myself using Frost Elemental Ring on my tank either due to the aforementioned space restrictions. Especially not for a 6 second Minor buff. The ability still does not look appealing in it's current state.
  
  As for the Wall of Frost shield, It's basically a lesser version of Warden's Frost Shield, but applies to the group. I did notice that the extra shield effect from Unstable Wall seems to be attached to your character, and potentially has a 15 meter range of application? I can also move far away from the original location and the secondary shield would still apply, however the additional shield after the wall itself ends seems redundant. You'll should be having max uptime on this ability in an ideal situation, so that should mean the second smaller shield isn't ever actually used because the first will be reapplied anyway, making the additional proc pretty useless.
  
  
• What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
  Add the taunt effect to Elemental Susceptibility and remove the refreshing on damage effect. Remove taunt from Frost Clench and add Minor Breach instead.
  
  Add the snare back to Frost Elemental Blockade. Remove the niche frost shield from Unstable Frost Wall, increase this morph's damage and give it another mechanic to do even more damage to immobilized enemies.
  
  I liked the idea that Pulsar could become an elemental themed PBAoE similar to Dual Weild's Blade Cloak with unique effects.
  
  
• Do you have any other general feedback?
  Really start listening to what the players who will actually have to deal with the changes you decide to shove on us have to say. Stop being so dang afraid to implement mechanics and ideas that we suggest even if they were highly supported for months. Communicate! Make it like a Q&A where you respond to larger concerns with the thought process behind your forced choice objectives. Isn't that what developer comments were supposed to be? However there is a severe lack of those in the notes where there definitely should be one accompanying a change.
  

I agree with 99% of this actually, the only part i don't fully agree with is the immobilised enemies suggestion, and by that i specifically mean it being tied to only immobilisation. i feel like cc in general is a better way of doing it. that way it can be activated by stuns, immobilisations AND snares. but that's really it.

Stinkyremy

Can someone explain what the changes are to frost staffs please. I'm not on PTS

universal_wrath

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Frost Staff changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What level/CP are you on Live?
• What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
• If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
• What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
• With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
• What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

CP 810 magden DD, full on frost build with double frost staves. I'm using force pulse and frost blockade and icy rage, sometimes destructive reach.

I'm liking the brittle effect and frost impulse. Brittle will help out with frost builds dps, almost exclusive to wardens. Frost impluse will aurely see a use in support builds in both pvp and pve. I however strongely dislike the damage decrrease to elemental wall and snare removal. This is a key skill being use because of mealstrom destruction staff effect. With decreease, I sensing that I will be using a skill just for the benefit of using mealstrom, if I don't have mealstrom weapon, I would drop it for somethibg else. Also, the damage shield from elemental is should be moved to impulse since it frost impluse is actually a little bit good now. I fail to see why would people use impulse over elemntal wall, since a damage sgield is far better than minor protection. Destructive expert and tri focus still fail to address the verstaility of frost staff. Destructive expert will force you to heavy attack or use impulse or elemntal wall, means it is useless for 4/6 skills. Tri focus only works if you heavy attack.

I'm still going to use frost staff as it is and still not going to put ant point in tri focus as usual.

Igeneral feedback: as nice as minor brettle is, it is a group buff. Meaning it will be used like lighting staff. Only 1 person use it and others are useless and better off with fire staff. This is very important for trials, because having frost staff will be pushed to healer/ tank roles. I petsonaly do not care about it because I don't do score runs and will still use it frost staff for the fantasy power builds.

VaxtinTheWolf

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Can someone explain what the changes are to frost staffs please. I'm not on PTS

Frost Clench taunts. Heavy Frost attacks no longer Taunts, but grants a shield for 12/25% of your max health. Major breach reduces both Physical/Spell resistance now (Not specific to staves but something to note), Wall of Frost (Both morphs) got their damage reduced, lost the snare and now apply a copy of Warden's Frost shield for a smaller value to yourself and group members (About a 7500 projectile specific shield for 6 seconds), Unstable Wall applies half of that when the wall ends. You restore a small amount of magicka when a frost shield absorbs projectile damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, applying the Chilled effect also applies the new Minor Brittle which increases the Critical Damage an enemy takes.

Rungar

heres how to fix this staff:

if you take melee damage while blocking with this staff you generate a stack of icy retribution for 8 seconds. If you heavy attack while you have a stack you give the enemy minor cowardice for 6 seconds. At 2 stacks its minor cowardice for 9 seconds. At three stacks your heavy attack gives major cowardice for 6 seconds. This effect can occur every 10 seconds per enemy.

this makes the ice staff a a unique tanking aspect in its own right and a useful backbar option since this would be the only source of major cowardice and requires block, melee, and heavy attack for activation for.

I would also shorten the range of this staff to 9m for light and heavy attacks and get rid of the projectile.

also rename cowardice to slow.

universal_wrath

Rungar wrote: »

heres how to fix this staff:

if you take melee damage while blocking with this staff you generate a stack of icy retribution for 8 seconds. If you heavy attack while you have a stack you give the enemy minor cowardice for 6 seconds. At 2 stacks its minor cowardice for 9 seconds. At three stacks your heavy attack gives major cowardice for 6 seconds. This effect can occur every 10 seconds per enemy.

this makes the ice staff a a unique tanking aspect in its own right and a useful backbar option since this would be the only source of major cowardice and requires block, melee, and heavy attack for activation for.

I would also shorten the range of this staff to 9m for light and heavy attacks and get rid of the projectile.

also rename cowardice to slow.

This is not fixing, this is destroying . While I like the idea of cowardice and how it is applied, shorting the LA to melee range will be absolutly terrible since there are frost centered DD builds for both PvP and PvE

emilyhyoyeon

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

1) 783

2) DD (+Tank) (Will use DD instead of DPS not to confuse the two in this, cus its importante)

3) I dont.

4) Favorite: Minor Brittle, Least favorite: Ele-Wall and Minor Brittle, reasons for the paradox:
- Minor Brittle is something that adds DPS, but its in no way something that makes FrostyStaff DDs more viable. Instead it pushes frostystaves into healer/off-tank support role. As it provides extra damage to the entire team and only requires one frost staff ever present, as any next instance of frost staff in the team is... redundant. Its a nice bonus. Which is the thing i like. But it stabs any purpose of frost staves as DPS, which was promised in Dev Update
- Weakening the frost wall's damage was another stab at the previous promise. If the former was a kidnestab this was a heart stab.

- All other additions enforce FrostyStaves as support. It doesnt even help main tanks.

5) Sadly I dont, I was excited, wanted to finally see a frost-warden dps be viable. But I was turned down cold. Pun semi-intended.

6) - Increase wall of ice's damage instead of lowering it
- make frost impulse deal 5% more damage with each cast up to 20% for 3s instead of minor protection which is already easily sourced elsewhere.
- If you wanna make destructive touch actually worthy taunt, give it Major Breach
- If you wanna make it a bit more supportive, perhaps you could give Elemental Rage lowered damage but also make it cheaper and give it Minor Staminasteal for 15s (And make it the only source of such. Like a homage to other elder scrolls, where frost damage drained enemies of stamina)

7) At least you looked into frost staffs briefly.

spoilered because big post

Completely agree with JohnOfMarkarth here in every single way.
but for me, not sure if it matters though:
#1 810 CP

#2 ''DD'' necromancer only for nonserious situations because of how terrible ice destruction magic was and still is

#3 I use a necromancer for my frost stuff, NOT warden. I use a standard magnecro build but replace elemental stuff with specifically ice abilities. Frost abilities I use: boneyard, ice unstable wall, ice pulsar for an AOE spammable, ice destructive reach, and ice elemental storm or ice flesh colossus

#4 Favorite and least favorite changes being Minor Brittle is spot on, for the same reasons as JohnOfMarkarth mentioned. Just want to reiterate that.

#5 I will not, especially considering the current changes are only workable with warden, not necromancer or even other classes.

#6
-Trifocus passive: ice staff heavy attacks hits target for a strong hit of X damage, bounces off the intial target, dealing less damage to other targets up to 3; move the old ancient knowledge passive to a passive from slotting frost clench. Move Minor Brittle to here

-Ancient Knowledge passive for ice staff should be a unique damage buff like fire and lightning; not a team buff like Minor Brittle. Perhaps 4% single target and 4% AOE damage boost. Maybe 8% more damage from all abilites used on a chilled target.

-Impulse needs some type of damage boost--increased damage to chilled enemies hit by it? or enemies under a negative effect?

-Elemental rage also needs a damage effect--increased damage to chilled enemies hit? or enemies under a negative effect?

-Add ice damage-boosting body sets (like Burning Spellweave for fire) and ice damage monster sets (like Zaan for fire) to help the viability of ice DDs

#7 Overall I am INCREDIBLY disappointed with the changes to the ice destruction staff, especially after reading the semi-promising statement about making it flexible for DDs in the original dev post. Like I genuinely can't believe these changes. Please respect preexisting TES game world designs. The devs seems to have always done this pretty well, but not with the destruction magic staves.

Onefrkncrzypope

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Aznarb You can't rely on Chilled alone to proc your Minor Maim since that's putting yourself at the mercy of RNG and will result in up-times lower than simply using Heroic Slash. You're also missing out on Minor Heroism (and Minor Breach when the patch hits) compared to using traditional Sword and Board. Why would you want Frost Staff tanks to have these obvious weaknesses?

@Onefrkncrzypope You miss the point of the Frost Staff changes. Frost Staff DPS users (and Shock Staff users) want to be able to use something other than a Flame Staff to DPS with. Simply punting Brittle to the Support roles completely undermines the purpose of the changes and reinforces the status quo of Flame Staff supremacy.

I am a frost staff user... I don't want to have to use it on my frontbar as a tank. My solution lets both of us enjoy the staff. You can still do what you want and I can still do what I want. How is that bad? It is still considered a support staff. That's in the patch notes. I can still taunt with it. This staff is still not better than a DPS staff. Frost staff users are already using frost staves. They are already choosing roleplay over optimize gameplay. After this change that will still be the case. That's fine its a game but I would like to enjoy the game to. Changing to having it only on the back bar will make for more ice staff usage from support and will also give a buff to ice staff dps.

ESO_Nightingale

ArzyeL wrote: »

What level/CP are you on Live?
c810+
What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Mostly DPS but Tank/Healer as well sometimes.
If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
Frost Warden for DPS and Warden Frost Tank.
What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Brittle is great for both DPS and Support roles. I don't like the change to Wall of Frost.
With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
My Frost DPS & Tank Builds will continue using the Staff, which is now more effective. I might start using it as a healer as well.
What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
I'd like to see a boost of damage when using Frost Staff or at least a bigger boost to Frost Damage on Warden's Passives. After all Warden is the Frost Damage Class to me.
Do you have any other general feedback?
I think the damage of Wall of Frost should be on par with the other elements. This will give Frost Staff a better overall damage and make it even better for DPS.

I don't think more passive damage on warden is the right way to go. it's a huge amount of what we have and when it gets nerfed it feels like it hits us extra hard. prime example being this patch, we need legitimate skill changes to make the skills feel better to use, and to synergise better with the class. cliff racer in general still feels bad, and we are lacking skill options, arctic blast has been a pain point for a while in pvp and pve and would be a prime candidate for a dps focused rework. even simple stuff like frost damage shalks for example is a great way to boost our chances of being viable with a frost staff in endgame content, as we would have much better chilled cleave uptime.

FrancisCrawford

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Magicka tanking is a fun idea, but awful in practice. Magicka block still costs a lot more than stamina block, and block cost reduction glyphs still did not apply last time I looked. Even being able to regenerate magicka while blocking does not offset this cost, which is why you don't see full magicka tanks running vet trials on leaderboards.

Seriously??? No wonder staff tanking is so unpopular.

Umm -- does Sturdy at least work? And CP?

Ratzkifal

• 1223CP
• All roles and PvP
• I use Frost staff in on my tank's backbar if I can't get my hands on Lightning and use Elemental Blockade to apply my Crusher enchantment. In PvP I use Unstable wall and Destructive Reach on my magWarden.
• My favorite change is a tie between the introduction of brittle and the removal of taunt from the heavy attack. It promises to make frost staves as rewarding to use as lightning staves and actually desireable in group situations.
  My least favorite change is the one made to Wall of Elements as the reduced damage will punish people who want to use Frost Staves for dps unnecessarily, considering it already doesn't get any offensive buffs from destruction staff passives.
• I am going to get a set of pve equipment for my magWarden so I can use a frost staff for damage dealing in PvE too. I will also be satisfied with a Frost staff when farming support sets for my healer or tank instead of grinding until I have Lightning or at least Inferno.
• Other changes I would like to see is Ancient Knowledge reducing the magicka cost of frost staff abilities by 8% in addition to what it currently does, just so Frost can be taken seriously by damage dealers. It is a destruction staff after all.
  Also I agree with the others that Elemental Susceptibility currently sees no use and would feel more natural as a taunt than Destructive Clench if an appropriate magicka cost was introduced and the refreshing effect was removed, especially since it applies the same debuff as Pierce Armor and thus fills the same niche.
• Generally I feel like Frost staves should be an offensive option first and a defensive utility support choice second. I do not wish to see it become a "Restoration staff 2.0" and have healers use their ice onto allies instead of enemies, which I can already see happening with the changes to Wall of Elements and Impulse.

Jodynn

Tying brittle to blockade would be better in that you don't need to be wielding but as long as it's cast, that way you can front-bar sword and board or restoration staff depending on your role after dropping blockade kind of like enchantments or vMA effect.

Frost clench seems like a lesser version of inner fire and a much lesser version of pierce armour.

Impulse looks like it can be useful for support roles if they're in groups.


Frost staves with these changes are definitely not a DPS option any more, not that they really were beforehand, but even less so and much more support oriented now.

If you wanted a DPS option you would give crit passive, and more damage based on chilled.
This would give magden a clear identity and bring brittle to the team easily.


In my opinion it doesn't fit the theme of Destruction Staves, it's more Support staff now.

EDIT:
Oh and for the devs CP1300 or something, I lost track or caring after 900 or so; however this doesn't define skill or caring for the game necessarily. Basically, end game PvE and solo/duo PvPer (mostly dueling slightly above my weight [ 1 v 2 or 2 v 5 ] but nobody duels zergs) and want to see the game balanced and the only mmorpg I care about.

CaffeinatedMayhem

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Magicka tanking is a fun idea, but awful in practice. Magicka block still costs a lot more than stamina block, and block cost reduction glyphs still did not apply last time I looked. Even being able to regenerate magicka while blocking does not offset this cost, which is why you don't see full magicka tanks running vet trials on leaderboards.

Seriously??? No wonder staff tanking is so unpopular.

Umm -- does Sturdy at least work? And CP?

AFAIK no. All of that "block cost reduction" applies to STAMINA block, not magicka. I could be wrong, last time I evaluated magckia block was a while ago.

Honestly, I don't even want to run a frost staff on back bar, if it costs magicka to block. Maybe because my tanks are stamina DK and Necro, but I'm always low on magicka. Casting CC and shields plus Wall of Elements to proc crusher takes a LOT of magicka. And in my rotations... I'm on my staff bar much more than my shield (turtle) bar. I actually *front* bar staff now, and only swap to back bar (shield) to fracture and block HA's.

With ZOS 1-shot mechanics, I end up roll dodging more than blocking in dungeons. In trials, tanks are so debuff focused that I need to be on my staff bar. I like trials that need 2 tanks, becuse when I MT I can actually hold block and buff myself - something I rarely get to do otherwise. ESO is getting better about not making tanks and healers just bufff bots, but it has a long ways to go.

CaffeinatedMayhem

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Tying brittle to blockade would be better in that you don't need to be wielding but as long as it's cast, that way you can front-bar sword and board or restoration staff depending on your role after dropping blockade kind of like enchantments or vMA effect.

Frost clench seems like a lesser version of inner fire and a much lesser version of pierce armour.

Impulse looks like it can be useful for support roles if they're in groups.


Frost staves with these changes are definitely not a DPS option any more, not that they really were beforehand, but even less so and much more support oriented now.

If you wanted a DPS option you would give crit passive, and more damage based on chilled.
This would give magden a clear identity and bring brittle to the team easily.


In my opinion it doesn't fit the theme of Destruction Staves, it's more Support staff now.

This, this is a fantastic idea. Warden DOES need an identity. Well, the class has an identity, one that the devs are currently insisting on making impossible.

If there *has* to be magicka tanking, make a separate "support" staff. OR give warden an identity besides the "ice" class. Personally, as a tank and magden DPS, I would prefer the first option: make a separate support staff. Make magicka block cost equal to stamina block cost. Give that staff minor breach, AoE crusher proc, etc. Stop putting support abilities on desto staff!

Or, as stated - leave minor brittle, it's a great status effect. Let warden do something besides be "allowed to play with the real DPS" because we have minor vulnerability and can off-heal/shield.