PTS Update 28 - Feedback Thread for Frost Staff Adjustments

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

YandereGirlfriend · September 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better.

No, they'd like to not get kicked out raids because they choose to use one of the three DESTRUCTION STAFF types in the game.

Also to not be condescended to by tanks trying to swoop in at the last second and appropriate for themselves something that they have been asking for for years.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better.

No, they'd like to not get kicked out raids because they choose to use one of the three DESTRUCTION STAFF types in the game.

Also to not be condescended to by tanks trying to swoop in at the last second and appropriate for themselves something that they have been asking for for years.

Uhm again its a tanking staff. You are trying to change something to fit your goals

Cinbri · September 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

JohnOfMarkarth · September 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Yet again. Thats entirely. And utterly. Support.
Not DD. Doesnt make forst DD-ing (magden or not) desired. At all

(I thought your vocality might be our last chance to get frostDDs... but seeing that it was so easily half-sated, I withdrew that hope)

ESO_Nightingale · September 2020

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Yet again. Thats entirely. And utterly. Support.
Not DD. Doesnt make forst DD-ing (magden or not) desired. At all

(I thought your vocality might be our last chance to get frostDDs... but seeing that it was so easily half-sated, I withdrew that hope)

Hey, I'm not done yet man. First, I just want to get to stable ground which it looks like we just might be this patch. We still do need a legitimate tanking weapon that was built from the ground up to be for tanking, the frost staff is still just a DPS weapon turned into a tanking weapon with a lot of bad skills. While I was originally going to be okay with just this (keep in mind I've been doing this for literally 3 years with us only getting legitimate results coming this year), several people in the frost discord have voiced wishing to continue to making the weapon for purely damage, and so I will continue.

JohnOfMarkarth · September 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Yet again. Thats entirely. And utterly. Support.
Not DD. Doesnt make forst DD-ing (magden or not) desired. At all

(I thought your vocality might be our last chance to get frostDDs... but seeing that it was so easily half-sated, I withdrew that hope)

Hey, I'm not done yet man. First, I just want to get to stable ground which it looks like we just might be this patch. We still do need a legitimate tanking weapon that was built from the ground up to be for tanking, the frost staff is still just a DPS weapon turned into a tanking weapon with a lot of bad skills. While I was originally going to be okay with just this (keep in mind I've been doing this for literally 3 years with us only getting legitimate results coming this year), several people in the frost discord have voiced wishing to continue to making the weapon for purely damage, and so I will continue.

I know you have. I was in the warden discord when it started... (then i went with discord cleanup), and we used to chat a lot about this. Tho I had a diff username there.

But Am, seemingly, much harder to satisfy with ... things that work against what was originaly teased, promised in dev update. What a backstab it was

ESO_Nightingale · September 2020

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Yet again. Thats entirely. And utterly. Support.
Not DD. Doesnt make forst DD-ing (magden or not) desired. At all

(I thought your vocality might be our last chance to get frostDDs... but seeing that it was so easily half-sated, I withdrew that hope)

Hey, I'm not done yet man. First, I just want to get to stable ground which it looks like we just might be this patch. We still do need a legitimate tanking weapon that was built from the ground up to be for tanking, the frost staff is still just a DPS weapon turned into a tanking weapon with a lot of bad skills. While I was originally going to be okay with just this (keep in mind I've been doing this for literally 3 years with us only getting legitimate results coming this year), several people in the frost discord have voiced wishing to continue to making the weapon for purely damage, and so I will continue.

I know you have. I was in the warden discord when it started... (then i went with discord cleanup), and we used to chat a lot about this. Tho I had a diff username there.

But Am, seemingly, much harder to satisfy with ... things that work against what was originaly teased, promised in dev update. What a backstab it was

ah, the original warden discord? that was some time ago. i remember when it was suddenly deleted with no warning, what did you go by again?

SidraWillowsky · September 2020

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you confirm whether or not the trial dummy now has the Minor Brittle buff? This will better inform our testing

FoolishOptimist · September 2020

I'll preface this response by saying that I have stopped playing ESO sinceFebruary this year. I saw the proposed changes to the Frost Staff on a facebook group and it's piqued my interest to consider returning.

What level/CP are you on Live?
PS4 NA (810+) PC NA (600+)

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
I've dabbled in all but I really enjoyed my support roles: Warden Healer Resto/Frost, Warden PVP Frost/Resto, DK Tank S+B/Frost

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
Primarily Crushing Shock for the ranged interrupt, WoE for the snare and AoE crusher. My Warden Healer used a Frost Backbar to keep up Chilled (Minor Maim) and in dungeons would heavy attack taunt on the odd occasion that the tank went down.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
+ Brittle is a wonderful idea that captures my perception of how Frost damage would interplay.

+ WoE Projectile Shield: I think this is a wonderful concept, however I believe it could provide better utility on a separate skill. Though this does reinforce the iconic image of Cryomancers conjuring a literal ice barrier to shield oncoming ranged attacks.

- The removal of the snare from WoE is illogical and a bit of a kick in the gut if I'm honest. This was integral for applying a soft CC that some classes cannot provide easily. As previously suggested, split the WoE morphs into offensive and defensive options. Unstable WoE retains the existing damage, Frost Blockade retains the snare.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Here are my proposed changes:
Frost Clench: Devastate enemy with an enhanced charge from your staff, dealing 2474 Magic Damage.
Frost Clench deals 300% more damage to enemies under 25% health
Rationale: Trauma patients are at risk of greater mortality if they are hypothermic, so it stands to reason that frost damage should be able to act as an execute ability. Frost Clench as a morph would provide Magicka DPS builds without a class execute, a much needed option. This would not impact support builds who use a frost staff.

Elemental Susceptibility: Send the elements to sap an enemy's defenses, afflicting them with Major Breach for 20 seconds, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. Additionally, you taunt the target into attacking you for 15 seconds. While this taunt is in effect, you increase the amount of damage you can block from projectiles and ranged attacks made by that target by 14%.
Rationale: Echoing previous suggestion, Elemental Susceptibility makes greater sense for the taunt. The added utility from the ranged damage mitigation parallels the bonus you receive from the S+B passive.

Impulse: Frost Impulse now applies a Damage Shield to you and 5 nearby group members that absorbs projectiles.
Rationale: Taking the damage shield from the proposed WoE changes means that we can keep the snare and damage available to suit both support and damage builds. Thematically, conjuring an icy ring to provide a damage shield seems like a super fun and feel-good support mechanic.

Passive Skills

Triforce: Damage shield with a heavy attack remains. Remove the feature of blocking with magicka from this skill.

"Magical Warfare" (Formerly, Penetrating Magic): Fire/Lightning: Allows your Destruction Staff spells to ignore 10% of an enemy's Spell Resistance.
Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.
Rationale: Applying this here does directs the Frost Stave as a more defensive themed weapon, but 10% penetration can easily be allocated elsewhere without much impact upon min-maxing builds.

Ancient Knowledge: Frost Staff either:
a) Decrease the magicka cost of skills by 8% or
b) Overall increase to damage by 4% (a healthy mix between Fire and Lightning)
Rationale: Option a) is beneficial to all builds by decreasing resource cost though lacks the added destructive weight for damage builds, whereas option b) is tailored specifically for DPS. Personally, I'd prefer option a).

Mysticism: *NEW PASSIVE SKILL* You channel your innate protective magicka. While your Destruction Staff is equipped, blocking costs magicka instead of stamina.
Rationale: Sure it's an extra skill point to spend, but really, this allows greater build diversity for those who feel strongly one way or another as to the efficacy of this, and allows it for Fire/Lightning staves as well.

Do you have any other general feedback?
Thanks for putting the much needed focus back into the Frost community. I absolutely LOVED the original concept of Frost magic being used for support and tanking, but at the same time, still wanted options for the potential destruction. Water and Ice are such versatile elements, and I believe we can work together as a community to bring together the changes needed to reflect that.

JohnnieKBaller · September 2020

What level/CP are you on Live?
810/1200+

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
DD Stamina Templar, though my frost character is a DD Mag Warden (one on Xbox NA, one on Xbox EU)

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
My frost warden is more of a novelty character. She does well at close range, the more that surrounds her, the better. Absolute crap at single target damage. She's rocking 5 piece Winter's Respite, 5 piece Ysgrammor's, with a monster set of Ice Heart (won't use sets on her that aren't frost related, again, novelty, don't care about bis or meta anything)

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
The best change is dropping the taunt. I have skill points that I can't spend and it kills me to not be able to put any points in tri focus. At least now I can spend some points in the passives and not detract from group play.
The worst is that there's still shields and other nonsense associated with frost. All the sets and Warden frost skills in general seem predicated to providing resistances and shields, then the entire frost staff skill line seems to do the same. Give us the option of doing damage, don't force us to be a tank. And if that's not gonna work for you, let someone use a frost staff with a shield...

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
No changes planned, just excited to see the taunt nonsense go away.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Uh, any way that we can change the frost (and flame) staff to have a continual hit, like the lightning staff? Why can't a frost/flame staff have a continual stream/flow of frost shards or whatever? Napalm could be cool. Mr. Freeze had a frost gun that was a continual spray (or Loki with the frosty dongle in the first Thor movie if you want to go the magical route). there's little that is more infuriating that winding up for however many seconds with a heavy attack, just to see it miss the target or slam into an effing spider/centipede behind what you're aiming at.

Do you have any other general feedback?
Eh, not really. I mean I do, but not in the world of frosticles...

FoolishOptimist · September 2020

JohnnieKBaller wrote: »

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Uh, any way that we can change the frost (and flame) staff to have a continual hit, like the lightning staff? Why can't a frost/flame staff have a continual stream/flow of frost shards or whatever? Napalm could be cool. Mr. Freeze had a frost gun that was a continual spray (or Loki with the frosty dongle in the first Thor movie if you want to go the magical route). there's little that is more infuriating that winding up for however many seconds with a heavy attack, just to see it miss the target or slam into an effing spider/centipede behind what you're aiming at.

Actually this would be a HUGE quality of life improvement. Channels over projectiles.

karekiz · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[1] What level/CP are you on Live? [2] What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)? [3] If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use? [4] What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff? [5] With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle? [6] What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities? [7] Do you have any other general feedback?

1. 810
2. Tank Main/DPS Alt
3. I use Frost staffs only if I feel I need the extra mitigation on back bar. Example being VCR+ with weapon swap to be safe.
4. The support shield/mitigation seems like a fun inclusion. Ice has always been generally some defensive/cc/support action even the classic mobs use it that way <Build a shield in front of them>. Seems nice that is being included into the toolkit.
The least favorite change is the swap to a destro ability doing a taunt. Stop that. We have a ranged taunt, and it does it better <Inner Fire>.
5. I probably will test it. If brittle is applied easily as a Tank I would just apply it. If not I would use as before. As a DPS I would ignore it.
6. I wouldn't even mind if it was changed to be a mini iceheart within 8-10 meters <5K total shield for all when using Blockade - All damage types>. It would provide a nice incentive for more tanks to drop lightning and provide a little extra with ice if needed. Arena runs and the like for more casual players I could see running it as most will play defensive by nature when they start out.
7. I don't see people changing to ice staff for DPS, and I have no idea why its so important. If something isn't 100% BIS nobody cares, and if it becomes BIS then literally everyone will have to refarm. Nobody wants that.

ESO_Nightingale · September 2020

karekiz wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[1] What level/CP are you on Live? [2] What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)? [3] If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use? [4] What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff? [5] With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle? [6] What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities? [7] Do you have any other general feedback?

1. 810
2. Tank Main/DPS Alt
3. I use Frost staffs only if I feel I need the extra mitigation on back bar. Example being VCR+ with weapon swap to be safe.
4. The support shield/mitigation seems like a fun inclusion. Ice has always been generally some defensive/cc/support action even the classic mobs use it that way <Build a shield in front of them>. Seems nice that is being included into the toolkit.
The least favorite change is the swap to a destro ability doing a taunt. Stop that. We have a ranged taunt, and it does it better <Inner Fire>.
5. I probably will test it. If brittle is applied easily as a Tank I would just apply it. If not I would use as before. As a DPS I would ignore it.
6. I wouldn't even mind if it was changed to be a mini iceheart within 8-10 meters <5K total shield for all when using Blockade - All damage types>. It would provide a nice incentive for more tanks to drop lightning and provide a little extra with ice if needed. Arena runs and the like for more casual players I could see running it as most will play defensive by nature when they start out.
7. I don't see people changing to ice staff for DPS, and I have no idea why its so important. If something isn't 100% BIS nobody cares, and if it becomes BIS then literally everyone will have to refarm. Nobody wants that.

It matters because the meta has always been fire and frost has always been a joke. You'll find quite a few people want to be able to use more than just double fire on their magdps and have it be viable in endgame. This is a roleplaying game and being able to play what you like most at top tier content feels awesome.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

Sahidom · September 2020

50/1285 CP
DPS/Tank, as needed by group.

I have tried the Frost Staff while tanking veteran content and found the current taunt/HA too much of a liability unless your in scenarios where range taunt is needed; but Inner Fire is a solid range taunt without compromising your dmage mitigation much.

The ability to block/cast Frost clench for a taunt would have me revisiting the Frost Staff; the s/b has better passives to handle incoming projectiles. The Frost version of Wall of Elements drains resources that would be needed for self-heal or another magic-based damage mitigation skill. I also don't feel the tank should carry that burden to cast damage shields on other players; you simple don't have the resources to maintain those in several boss mechanic fights.

These would be changes that I would suggest:

Impulse: Each elemental type of this ability and its morphs have gained new functionality.

Flame Impulse now deals bonus damage that scales based on missing health if the target hit was burning.

Frost Impulse now applies Minor Protection to up to 6 group members for 6 seconds.

Shock Impulse now deals 5% more damage for each enemy hit, up to 30%.

The Frost Staff version may want to consider applying Minor Vulnerability to targets, if you want to be semi-consistent with m/M Brittle with a different debuff. You have already a protective skill via Wall of Elements, that's effectively a barrier that protects user and group members.

This would be a decent AoE damage buff for the DPS that could be used, as necessary for veteran boss fights where its a DPS race; Again, you can gain Minor Protection from a Fighters Guild, Circle of Protection; I don't feel you need to add this type of dynamic Minor Protection casting.

Igneous Shield shields other players with a minor damage shield, the Wall of Elements would be a comparable damage shield benefiting others; it should cost relatively the same, in my opinion so it doesn't devalue the DK skill, or other similar skills. This would be your dynamic protecrion skill to shield others from damage: granted projectiles only would devaule the skill use, but it has its place, I suppose and distinguishes itself from other skills. I probably wouldn't use this skill whether I use a Frost staff or not over Igneous Shield.

Tri-Focus:

This passive no longer causes your Heavy Attacks with a Frost Staff to taunt the enemy.

Increased the strength of the Damage Shield granted from Heavy Attacking with a Frost Staff to 12.5/25% of your Max Health, up from 4/8%.

This should be streamlined to provide a flat +4/8% strength to Damage Shields. This would support a broad range of players, not specific to tanking, but very beneficial for tanks that use harden armor, igneous shield, bone shield, etc. In addition to other class and non-class skills that offer this type of protection.

There are several mechanics from veteran bosses where a damage shield will help soak the staggering incoming damage from the boss; as more trials and DLC content rolls out, the damage output of the bosses are increasing. Changing the passive to a flat increase to damage shields will make the passive more dynamic and supports the concept Ice Staves are defensive staves.

Cinbri · September 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

Cinbri · September 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

If you mean Heavy armor passive of boosted heavy attack resource gain it was replacement of Wrath passive in U16 and only coz PvP reasons where straight damage boost passive was changed for passive that indirectly boost damage by boosting sustain coz heavy armor "should not be damage-oriented". Overhaul had nothing to do with pve tanking and especially with weapon lines.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

If you mean Heavy armor passive of boosted heavy attack resource gain it was replacement of Wrath passive in U16 and only coz PvP reasons where straight damage boost passive was changed for passive that indirectly boost damage by boosting sustain coz heavy armor "should not be damage-oriented". Overhaul had nothing to do with pve tanking and especially with weapon lines.

How does a resource return boost not help tanking in PVE? I mean you can narrow the sample size of this discussion all you want but it doesn't change anything. you can't say that heavy attacks are anti tank and leave it at that. Why is it anti tank?

VaxtinTheWolf · September 2020

Seems to be getting kind of feisty around here. I do like themed builds but personally I'm absolutely not concerned about being top DPS or 'competitive with other classes', I just want it to be fun to use. That's just my outlook so what do I know really, I'm just trying to give opinions and suggestions with what ZoS had already presented for us to work with.

The Ice staff would have to provide the user a unique Critical Damage boost to the user against chilled enemies or something for it to not be considered a support effect, rather than allowing one player to grant a boost to all incoming Critical Damage to the chilled enemy. Probably throwing in some Critical Chance increases somewhere in there too would enforce that theme, as though a winter storm was becoming more harsh as it ramped up.

I did have one more thought though; I've felt that Impulse has been a lackluster skill since after the days when you could block-spam it with Evil Hunter returning your stamina through procs. It's the final active ability in the skill line and I think it should be more appealing.. More exciting. Why not bring back an old mechanic back from Flames of Oblivion and/or the elemental cloaks from Skyrim and improve upon it. Merge it with Impulse or one of it's morphs along with that PBAoE idea.

I've made up some additional changes with inspiration from other existing skills and user's forum posts to hopefully support the idea of re-imagining the Impulse Ability. You could still incorporate the new staff effects that were recently introduced. While I tried to preserve and reinforce synergy within the skills, my largest concern about this is trying to retain the direct damage AoE aspect, as most skills that are on a timer seem to be classified as DoTs instead. If duration based damage abilities have to be a DoT then you could add a single hit of damage when the effect starts, similar to Eruption or Sun Shield.

Impulse (Base Skill)

Costs Magicka, 6m Radius, Instant, Target Self

Brandish your staff to surround yourself with a vortex of elemental energy for (12?) seconds and every (2-3) seconds it pulses outwards, dealing (an amount of direct damage) to enemies within 6 meters.

This ability has an increased chance to apply the respective status effect. (I don't know the current value)

Flame Impulse deals bonus damage that scales based on missing health if the target hit was burning.

Frost Impulse provides 10% more Critical Chance against enemies who are under the effects of chilled.

Shock Impulse deals (2.5% or 5%) more damage each tick to concussed enemies, up to a max of 30%.

Elemental Ring (Morph 1)

Costs Magicka, 28m Range, 6m Radius, Instant, Target Area

Brandish your staff to summon a concentrated vortex of elemental energy at the target location for (12?) seconds which pulses every (2-3) seconds, dealing (an amount of direct damage) to enemies in the area.

This ability has an increased chance to apply the respective status effect. (I don't know the current value)

Flame Ring deals bonus damage that scales based on missing health if the target hit was burning.

Frost Ring provides 10% more Critical Chance against enemies who are under the effects of chilled.

Shock Ring deals (2.5% or 5%) more damage each tick to concussed enemies, up to a max of 30%.

New Effect: Deals damage at a target location instead of around you.

Pulsar (Morph 2)

Costs Magicka, 6m Radius, Instant, Target Self

Brandish your staff to surround yourself with a vortex of elemental energy for (12?) seconds and every (2-3) seconds it pulses outwards, dealing (an amount of direct damage) to enemies within 6 meters.

This ability has an increased chance to apply the respective status effect. (I don't know the current value)

Flame Pulsar deals bonus damage that scales based on missing health if the target hit was burning. Increases the bonus damage dealt to burning enemies by (a reasonable amount).

Frost Pulsar provides 10% more Critical Chance against enemies who are under the effects of chilled. Every 6 seconds apply a damage shield shield to yourself and allies that absorbs projectiles for 6 seconds and grants Minor Protection while the shield is active.

Shock Pulsar deals (2.5% or 5%) more damage each tick to concussed enemies, up to a max of 30%. Damaging enemies who are Off-Balance will stun them for 2 seconds.

New Effect: Enhances the additional elemental effects.

Destruction Expert (Passive)

Rank I - With Destruction Staff Equipped
When you kill an enemy with a Destruction Staff ability, you restore 1800 Magicka.

When you absorb damage using a Destruction Staff Damage Shield, you restore 900 Magicka. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds.

Rank II - With Destruction Staff Equipped
When you kill an enemy with a Destruction Staff ability, you restore 3600 Magicka.

When you absorb damage using a Destruction Staff Damage Shield, you restore 1800 Magicka. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

Blackrose Prison Staff (Wild Impulse)

2 items: Adds 1190 Spell Penetration (Perfected)
2 items: Reduce the cost of Impulse by 10% (adjust as needed). Increases the damage per tick by (a slight amount) and reduce the tick rate by 1 second.

Cireous · September 2020

Frost Wall of Elements + Winter's Respite = Good time, fun times.

Heals and shields for you, heals and shields for you, heals and shields for you!

Now, if only Winter's Respite would heal allies instead of group members. That s*** is so annoying at Harrowstorms, my heals not healing people.

Also, great job on the shield animation with (frost) Wall of Elements! So. Awesome.

I appreciate the support.

Cinbri · September 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

If you mean Heavy armor passive of boosted heavy attack resource gain it was replacement of Wrath passive in U16 and only coz PvP reasons where straight damage boost passive was changed for passive that indirectly boost damage by boosting sustain coz heavy armor "should not be damage-oriented". Overhaul had nothing to do with pve tanking and especially with weapon lines.

How does a resource return boost not help tanking in PVE? I mean you can narrow the sample size of this discussion all you want but it doesn't change anything. you can't say that heavy attacks are anti tank and leave it at that. Why is it anti tank?

So you coming into discussion about weapon line and talk about armor line that has nothing to do with frost staff tanking then using "example" of tanking that actually has nothing to do with tanking itself and now going offtopic about "narrowing discussion". Literally zero logic.

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Seems to be getting kind of feisty around here. I do like themed builds but personally I'm absolutely not concerned about being top DPS or 'competitive with other classes', I just want it to be fun to use. That's just my outlook so what do I know really, I'm just trying to give opinions and suggestions with what ZoS had already presented for us to work with.

It goes like this - tanking staff should not be bis dps weapon otherwise every dps will use it and gain best of two words survivability-damage, it should just being better usefull or "fun". Imagine all dps would use snb coz suddenly snb would become dps bis

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

If you mean Heavy armor passive of boosted heavy attack resource gain it was replacement of Wrath passive in U16 and only coz PvP reasons where straight damage boost passive was changed for passive that indirectly boost damage by boosting sustain coz heavy armor "should not be damage-oriented". Overhaul had nothing to do with pve tanking and especially with weapon lines.

How does a resource return boost not help tanking in PVE? I mean you can narrow the sample size of this discussion all you want but it doesn't change anything. you can't say that heavy attacks are anti tank and leave it at that. Why is it anti tank?

So you coming into discussion about weapon line and talk about armor line that has nothing to do with frost staff tanking then using "example" of tanking that actually has nothing to do with tanking itself and now going offtopic about "narrowing discussion". Literally zero logic.

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Seems to be getting kind of feisty around here. I do like themed builds but personally I'm absolutely not concerned about being top DPS or 'competitive with other classes', I just want it to be fun to use. That's just my outlook so what do I know really, I'm just trying to give opinions and suggestions with what ZoS had already presented for us to work with.

It goes like this - tanking staff should not be bis dps weapon otherwise every dps will use it and gain best of two words survivability-damage, it should just being better usefull or "fun". Imagine all dps would use snb coz suddenly snb would become dps bis

How is heavy attack anti tanking?

Tatanko · September 2020

Level
CP810+

Role
DPS

Frost Staff Abilities Used (DPS)

Force Pulse (Force Shock)
Unstable Wall of Elements (Wall of Elements)
Destructive Clench (Destructive Touch)
Elemental Ring (Impulse)
Elemental Rage (Elemental Storm)

Changes Favored

Applying Minor Brittle when already applying Chilled. This feels as though it contributes to the utility of a frost staff wielder regardless of their role, but could be a unique bonus brought to the group by a DPS who favors frost rather than pushing a Tank role into using a frost staff when they may not necessarily prefer it.
Removing the taunt from the Tri-Focus passive skill for frost staves. The ability to use this passive at all as a DPS will be really nice and feel less like choosing to be second class.

Changes Disliked

(Frost) Impulse now applies Minor Protection to up to 6 group members for 6 seconds. I can see that this was primarily intended for use by a Tank, and for that purpose I think it's actually a good thing. As a DPS however, I am still being punished in my offensive capability by choosing to use a frost staff with this ability versus shock/flame in much the same way as the Tri-Focus passive skill previously. I would prefer that there were another way to apply this group buff elsewhere in the skill tree.
I do not like any of the changes to Wall of Frost. In my opinion it should retain the snare and equal damage, this is far more useful than a damage shield as a DPS (or a tank, given all the other options available for damage shields).

Plans for the Future
For the time being, I am only going to be placing two skill points into Tri-Focus.

Changes I Would Make

I would move the buff of Minor Protection from Frost Impulse to Wall of Frost, and instead add a damage bonus to Frost Impulse based around the Chilled effect.
I would revert all changes to Wall of Frost and its morphs to their current state on Live.

General Feedback
Overall I feel that my damage output will suffer at least somewhat if I do not make any other changes (e.g. equipment).

ESO_Nightingale · September 2020

After a bunch more testing i've added a "continued" section to my original post, which is the first comment on the first page. Feel free to read it if you like.

Elvenheart · September 2020

The snare shouldn’t be taken off because it just makes sense for icy effects to cause targets to move more slowly.

techprince · September 2020

What level/CP are you on Live?
CP 1040+
What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
All roles
If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
On Tank
What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
Most favorite : Changes to Destruction Expert, Tri-focus and Impulse.
Least favorite : Destructive Clench, Wall of Elements and Minor Brittle.
With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
No, nothing will change.
What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Wall of Elements should not have been touched, same goes for Destructive Touch. There is no way for a magicka user to immobilize an enemy outside of class abilities. There is no other way to slow an enemy outside of class abilities as well. The slow on Wall of Elements is extremely useful on adds. I would suggest to use Elemental Susceptibility for mirroring Pierce Armor functionality. Add the same magicka cost as Inner Rage ability.
Minor Brittle will force healers to use frost staff and in the process, they will lose Concussion and Off-balance. I would highly suggest you to replace the Minor Vulnerability buff on Lightning Staff with Minor Brittle instead. This will allow all the healers to keep their current weapons and will not be forced to switch to frost staff. This will also allow sets like Infallible Mage to be useful.
Do you have any other general feedback?

Sahidom · September 2020

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives

But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?

Same argument that many like myself said when they changed years ago but they doubled down. Ice staff is for tanking they keep telling us that. If the change it ok but right now that's what it is

Yes it tanking staff, i.e. magicka version of snb and thus it making weird that tanking staff have effect like Tri-Focus that based on heavy attacks, i.e. on literally anti-tank action. Like snb doesn't boost your light/heavy attacks damage, it boost defensive actions like more damage to bash.

HA mechanics are not anti tank, check heavy armor passives. It does have weaker passives though. I mean people don't even talk about the speed passive on a S&B which is more important than it sounds especially in these new trials.

We talk about weapon lines not armor.

I was talking about what you said. Heavy attacks aren't anti tanking and gave you an example.

If you mean Heavy armor passive of boosted heavy attack resource gain it was replacement of Wrath passive in U16 and only coz PvP reasons where straight damage boost passive was changed for passive that indirectly boost damage by boosting sustain coz heavy armor "should not be damage-oriented". Overhaul had nothing to do with pve tanking and especially with weapon lines.

How does a resource return boost not help tanking in PVE? I mean you can narrow the sample size of this discussion all you want but it doesn't change anything. you can't say that heavy attacks are anti tank and leave it at that. Why is it anti tank?

So you coming into discussion about weapon line and talk about armor line that has nothing to do with frost staff tanking then using "example" of tanking that actually has nothing to do with tanking itself and now going offtopic about "narrowing discussion". Literally zero logic.

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Seems to be getting kind of feisty around here. I do like themed builds but personally I'm absolutely not concerned about being top DPS or 'competitive with other classes', I just want it to be fun to use. That's just my outlook so what do I know really, I'm just trying to give opinions and suggestions with what ZoS had already presented for us to work with.

It goes like this - tanking staff should not be bis dps weapon otherwise every dps will use it and gain best of two words survivability-damage, it should just being better usefull or "fun". Imagine all dps would use snb coz suddenly snb would become dps bis

I would disagree. First, we have to remove the tank stereotyping from the ice staff itself, and properly classify the ice staves as defensive that pulls its extra damage from chilled status. Both of these qualities allow for either tanking or dps/defensive gameplay. Will it be BiS? Depends on the class and build of the character player and what they want to achieve. For example,, critical builds may want to use the Ice Staff to push for higher critical damage. Vice versa, the staff opens utility and options for tanking with an Ice staff. Ultimately, its wrong to stereotype the weapon strictly into tanking. Hopefully, ZOS has better vision to se the duality the Ice staff could offer players.

ESO_Nightingale · September 2020

Hey everyone, it would appear that minor brittle's application is bugged in at least 2 ways that I've personally tested, I'll start with the most severe bug

1: I'll read off the zos official statement before continuing:

Applying Chilled while actively holding a Frost Staff now applies Minor Brittle in addition to its other effects. Note that the Staff must be on your active bar when Chilled is applied for this to proc.

This unfortunately for frostdens, does not appear to be the case as you can apply chilled and brittle from other active weapons, it's been tested here with the flame staff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66mR5j1MzVA

additional information about this video, I only had a berserk glyph on the frost wall bar, and thus the only application of the brittle was from frost wall's tick itself.

This bug needs to be fixed before the changes go live.

2: elemental weapon does not apply brittle from it's chilled proc even when actively holding a frost staff. Try it for yourselves, it does not apply brittle. (additionally but not overly important, elemental weapon's tooltip says it applies the "Chill" status effect, not the "Chilled" status effect)
Edit: according to @Olupajmibanan this seems to also apply to sets such as asylum destro and frozen watcher.