PTS Update 28 - Feedback Thread for Frost Staff Adjustments

Parabola

LEVEL: CP810+
ROLE: Warden-Tank (95%), Warden-Heal/Tank (5%, AvA only), DPS (too many buttons)

FROST STAFF ABILITIES:
- Heavy Attack (for the ranged taunt & shield via Tri-Focus)
- Crushing Shock (for the interrupt during select PvE scenarios)
- Block (to expend magicka instead of stamina via Tri-Focus)

LEAST FAVORITE CHANGE: Loss of taunt on heavy attack. I know the DPS-folk want this gone, but maybe you can compromise by only taunting when the player is set as a tank in group roles.

MOST FAVORITE CHANGE: Tri-Focus shield buff. However, this isn't a needed change.

PLAYSTYLE CHANGE: With these changes, I will almost never use the Frost Staff. The only situation where it might be useful now is with Bloodlord's Embrace against a PvE boss that attacks frequently to make Bloodlord's Embrace worthwhile and has minimal adds.

RECOMMENDED CHANGES: Return the heavy attack taunt, but only make it taunt for players slotted in a tank role.

=== OTHER COMMENTS ===
BRITTLE: Crit chance must high enough on the DPS to make it worthwhile, and we generally don't know if they are running a crit build or using Malacath. The chilled status effect is also rare, even with the Elemental Force 100% buff, unless you use the terrible skills/gear that can guarantee it (Psijic, Imbue Weapon; Asylum, Concentrated Force). It has no value when there are lots of adds. It is easier with Wardens, but they should be using class skills to do ice damage.

DESTRUCTIVE CLENCH: Why not use the Undaunted Inner Fire? Tanks don't do damage anyway, and the undaunted synergy actually helps the team. Inner Fire is instant-cast and long-range, which makes it stand out from the slower medium-range Destructive Clench or Ice Staff Heavy Attack. Here, this skill doesn't win out in any way.

WALL OF ELEMENTS: Ranged attacks are only really threats from snipe-spamming gankers. In PvE, the biggest threats are enemies that lay down AoE or have special effects, so why would a tank waste magicka and a skillslot for something highly situational. On the AvA side, I need a snare to help my team catch up to enemies playing the line-of-sight game around towers, trees, and the like. In PvE, the snare gives me a bit of time after initiation to taunt the adds before they run off to the DPS/healer. Instead, I will just run Caltrops. It is like a moderately effective group taunt (something we tanks really hope to one-day have). It doesn't help much to provide mini-shields to allies. They take so much damage anyway, that I would rather slot a skill that helps me manage adds and control the battle.

DESTRUCTION EXPERT: If I want resource, I heavy attack. If I really need it, I put on Bloodlord. This drop in the bucket doesn't really help a tank, but it is infinitely better for tanks than magicka on kill.

VS SWORD AND SHIELD: I primarily tank with Sword and Shield. My three primary reasons are: (1) Frost Staff doesn't have reduction in projectile damage, or speed, (2) the staff doesn't provide armor like a shield; (3) S&S gets an additional passive benefit for the quality/cost of the block when Defensive Stance is on the bar. The proposed changes add more reasons to use S&S over Frost Staff (described elsewhere).

IMPULSE: A 5% benefit isn't worth the cost and slot on the main bar. It doesn't last long enough to put on the back bar (buffs). Better to slot a passive and only play with one weapon bar.

OTHER: Staff. Maybe the heavy attack could become a mid-ranged icy-aura AOE channel. An AOE taunt would be amazing. I suggest that you add passive effects to skills that work on the back bar. Consider offering an increase to the quality of snares or resistance too them. How about some movement speed while blocking. Also, consider having a bonus that increases the more Destro skills are slotted. Otherwise, we will just default to the probably more effective class/guild skills that provide similar effects.

MopeyHat

What level/CP are you on Live?
810.

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Most often tank and DPS in PvE.

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
Like many end-game tanks, I use the frost staff on my backbar tanks for Infused Crusher enchantments with Blockade. On my warden I use the Tri-Focus passive and occasionally block on that bar to recover stamina.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?
I really like seeing the taunt move off Tri-Focus so ice staff users can finally get that passive. I really don't like seeing the damage reduction on Wall of Elements, a staple in just about every current DPS build.

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
I'd consider double-barring ice staves on a tank to get the Brittle uptime and extra shields, but I don't see putting it on a DPS in the current incarnation.

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?
Please give Frost Clench a different effect to even out with Pierce Armor/Inner Fire (e.g. full 28m range) or move the taunt to Elemental Susceptibility (the auto-refresh would be a really fun effect on a taunt!). Also, I would really love some way to have the movement speed while blocking that one-hander and shield does.

I see you guys are trying to bring Minor Brittle in as a pull for DPS to run Ice Staves, but because you made the buff unstackable and difficult to proc, it's inevitably going to be a support weapon. Please consider a buff like the 8% damage bonuses Fire/Lightning staves get - a strong, competitive buff only to the weapon user would be much more compelling for DPS. Maybe Minor Brittle could be on Ice Reach?

Do you have any other general feedback?
Please also look at balancing the effects across Impulse and Wall of Elements for DPS. Currently fire staves are pulling ahead with the Wall of Elements burning effect, and ice Impulse looks very weak with a commonly-given buff. And perhaps Sorcerers and Wardens could give a buff similar to the one DKs give for fire damage for lightning and ice?

Aznarb

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Aznarb You can't rely on Chilled alone to proc your Minor Maim since that's putting yourself at the mercy of RNG and will result in up-times lower than simply using Heroic Slash. You're also missing out on Minor Heroism (and Minor Breach when the patch hits) compared to using traditional Sword and Board. Why would you want Frost Staff tanks to have these obvious weaknesses?

@Onefrkncrzypope You miss the point of the Frost Staff changes. Frost Staff DPS users (and Shock Staff users) want to be able to use something other than a Flame Staff to DPS with. Simply punting Brittle to the Support roles completely undermines the purpose of the changes and reinforces the status quo of Flame Staff supremacy.

I won't miss minor breach after patch.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Magicka tanking is a fun idea, but awful in practice. Magicka block still costs a lot more than stamina block, and block cost reduction glyphs still did not apply last time I looked. Even being able to regenerate magicka while blocking does not offset this cost, which is why you don't see full magicka tanks running vet trials on leaderboards.

Seriously??? No wonder staff tanking is so unpopular.

Umm -- does Sturdy at least work? And CP?

AFAIK no. All of that "block cost reduction" applies to STAMINA block, not magicka. I could be wrong, last time I evaluated magckia block was a while ago.

Honestly, I don't even want to run a frost staff on back bar, if it costs magicka to block. Maybe because my tanks are stamina DK and Necro, but I'm always low on magicka. Casting CC and shields plus Wall of Elements to proc crusher takes a LOT of magicka. And in my rotations... I'm on my staff bar much more than my shield (turtle) bar. I actually *front* bar staff now, and only swap to back bar (shield) to fracture and block HA's.

With ZOS 1-shot mechanics, I end up roll dodging more than blocking in dungeons. In trials, tanks are so debuff focused that I need to be on my staff bar. I like trials that need 2 tanks, because when I MT I can actually hold block and buff myself - something I rarely get to do otherwise. ESO is getting better about not making tanks and healers just buff bots, but it has a long ways to go.

Nop, glyph and sturdy work when Tanking in magicka the same way it does with stamina.
Sauce ? I play a Tankplar with dual frost stave and have test pretty much all with it.

But I agree on the fact that magicka cost more to block in despite this.
Totally playable for 90% of the content though but yeah, wouldn't do scoring with this kind of build. But totally fine for 4man trifeca and most vTrial.
I would add than using this kind of build with other class than Templar is not really working. Most Templar utility skill are stamina based, so it work fine to use the mag pool to block, but that not the case for other Tank. And that the main reason why we don't tank with frost staff.

Scritchel

General Feedback

Not sure if this has been said but can the shield animation be made smaller and not as shiny?

I tested it with 2 others and having 3 people with those spinning giant walls was annoying and distracting. I cant imagine having 10 or 12 people with it on

Athan1

Frost Staff snares where an important part of magicka tanks. For the Templars, they are the only way of AoE CC. With the removal of WoE snares and immobility from frost clench, we're losing almost all our CC.

VaxtinTheWolf

In addition to my last post, I think the Wall of Elements should not provide a frost shield, and that it should be moved to Frost Elemental Ring instead, because the shield's duration matches the 6 second buff. Honestly it's just really weird for Elemental Wall to spawn shields.

Cinbri

Magplar PvPer/ PvE Healer:From my point of view frost staff changes are main disspointment for next update.
In PvP instead of improve frost staff it will actually makes me want to use staff less and switch back to snb:
1. I using frost as mainbar weapon coz its imitation of more offensive snb - allows to have Drain to apply armor debuff and light heavy attacks scaling of max magical stats. However next update can swap Drain for Radiant Aura with loss of damage but buffed triple minor regen buffs, light atacks will scale of offensive stat and thus snb light attacks will be similar, especially on noCP where dont boost magicla stars, and without pen from Drain in heavy armor wont loose any mana penetration for snb physical attacks anyway.
In addition on Templar dont have any aoe soft CCs so frost wall of elements was way to address its problem however with removal of snare and damage decrease it will deal even lower damage while without aoe snare it will loose lot of utility, and damage shield still not enough to help deal with snipe spammers.
Impulse applying minor protection is also waste because having already class-based source of minor protection.
2. Passives: still loose 1 passive - Tri-Focus because manablock in PvP is unexisting, coz disabling mainresource regen, especially when regen buffs got buffed - will ends your char out of resources, especialyl given that it higher cost in compare to stamina skills was partly redeemed by manasteal debuff which got nerfed twice. So it means also loosing damage shield on heavy attacks, that got buffed. And with changes - there is still zero improvements in this area. First manablock, and second is frost heavy attack itself - it rudiculously slow and clunky. It slowness killing its viability in pve - tank wont unhold block for so long, while in PvP its slowness+slow projectile decrease changes to hit anyone. And since damage shields attached only to successfull hit - it wont apply damage shield.
Due to far lower viability of frost woe - i will probably wont use it anymore and as result loosing 2nd passive - Penetrating Magic.
So wearing forst staff over snb defensive-wise makes you loose lot of passive strength - as Destruction Expert wont work either for tank.

It goes like this - apart form other passives, even in compare to pure block passive we loose lot of utility on frost staff and thus on magicka tank in comparison to stam tank, especially coz snb utility is benefit stam spec while ignore mana spec with its weapon damage increase and boosting cost of stam-cost skills.

And as healer i would still prefer to use lighting staff and boost my damage a bit in easy content while shock woe+shock enchant is easy source of off-balance that will proc on cooldown and benefit all members of team not just dd role.

So, there is couple suggestions:
1. How about change frost Impulse instead of granting minor protection, that is not really usefull to either grant moderate mitigation effect taht is stackable witj minor protection like brp duals buffs blade cloak, or competelty change it into make allowing frost Impulse to tick every sec as aoe dot after initial cast, similarly to blade cloak. It would make it desirable to to use frost staff, brp staff and Impulse itself in PvP on dps character.
2. How about change manablock to be granted by some situative skill (Elemental Susceptibility, Destrutcive Touch inaddition to aggro) when it in slot so we dont have to loose 1 utility passive if we dont want to use manablock, while frost Tri-Focus could get overhaul - to get it defensive nature instead of granting shield on heavy attacks it could grant damage shield when you block incoming attack so it would proc for tanking or grant some other effect familair to resto staff passive Absorb, i.e. when you hold block.
I believe get utiltiy for mgicka specs through utility of passives even if you dont use manablock - is way to go.

ESO_Nightingale

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

In addition to my last post, I think the Wall of Elements should not provide a frost shield, and that it should be moved to Frost Elemental Ring instead, because the shield's duration matches the 6 second buff. Honestly it's just really weird for Elemental Wall to spawn shields.

it desperately needs it's damage back plus 10% more on the explosion and DoT. While tanks care about the snare, which is fine, Frostden damage dealers care about it's damage, and how it's so much lower than walls of fire and shock even before the markarth patch. Frostdens are trying to be viable as the chilled and minor brittle applicants of the group, so getting Frostdens closer in dps to normal magden allows the group to actually run one viably instead of just double barring frost staves on a tank, they soak up so much dps utility, that I think it's imperative that Frosden come out on top. as they've been a joke for the entire game's history (well, since morrowind anyway). The other issue is chilled uptime, which changing some magicka warden ability damage types would genuinely help, along with other ideas like addressing arctic blast.

if we can get more damage on unstable wall of frost instead of losing damage for something we don't want, and the snare back on blockade that would make many people more happy.

Firstmep

I can agree with most of the frost staff changes Exept for clench having a taunt.
Why? Inner fire is already a ranged Magicka taunt with a built in synergy and better range.
Keep clench as it is IMHO, or give it some other defensive utility, like guaranteed chill or something.

ESO_Nightingale

Firstmep wrote: »

I can agree with most of the frost staff changes Exept for clench having a taunt.
Why? Inner fire is already a ranged Magicka taunt with a built in synergy and better range.
Keep clench as it is IMHO, or give it some other defensive utility, like guaranteed chill or something.

guaranteed chill is a really bad idea, it only lasts for 4 seconds and it completely devalues the point of trying to apply the chilled status effect on frostden which we are trying to enable going into next patch.

Firstmep

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I can agree with most of the frost staff changes Exept for clench having a taunt.
Why? Inner fire is already a ranged Magicka taunt with a built in synergy and better range.
Keep clench as it is IMHO, or give it some other defensive utility, like guaranteed chill or something.

guaranteed chill is a really bad idea, it only lasts for 4 seconds and it completely devalues the point of trying to apply the chilled status effect on frostden which we are trying to enable going into next patch.

Anything is better than a low range taunt that already has a better version.

ESO_Nightingale

Firstmep wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I can agree with most of the frost staff changes Exept for clench having a taunt.
Why? Inner fire is already a ranged Magicka taunt with a built in synergy and better range.
Keep clench as it is IMHO, or give it some other defensive utility, like guaranteed chill or something.

guaranteed chill is a really bad idea, it only lasts for 4 seconds and it completely devalues the point of trying to apply the chilled status effect on frostden which we are trying to enable going into next patch.

Anything is better than a low range taunt that already has a better version.

yes, i agree, even putting the taunt on elemental susceptibility instead of it's current effects would be far better.

Cinbri

Forgot to mention that 10% reductuon in light attacks damage for staffs yet another reason why in "Frost vs s&b" is not helping promote frost staff.

Jodynn

Last thing I forgot to mention, as a DPS in PvP or PvE I will not be using a frost staff with these changes, but I would use the old frost staff in PvP occasionally, but thought it needed some help.

This is not the help I would offer for DPS but, support, it's okay, could be better as mentioned before.

TankHealz2015

What level/CP are you on Live?
max 50 CP 1000+

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?
Tank for mostly PUG/dungeon finder Vet and DLC dungeons

If you currently use Frost Staff abilities, what kind of builds do you use?
Dungeon Tank, DragonKnight, sword&shield front bar and frost staff back bar
I like to wear one set of protective/tank type armor and one set of fun/proc type armor depending on the dungeon

I like tanking half with stamina and half with magika. In a pinch, if one runs low, I can swap bars to the other.
I normally have wall of elements slotted on back bar even though I have Talons slotted on front bar....
I just started using the free Elemental Drain because combined with Wall of Elements I like the magika-steal in flow.
Occasionally, I slot the Crushing Shock for the ranged interrupt but only for specific fights.
Occasionally, I slot the Pulsar skill for the AoE minor mangle.. hoping it helps smash large add packs


What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

Brittle: I like this new debuff and that it is dedicated to frost staff.

Wall of Elements: I like it. The visual effects of the shield look really cool. I would use it in dungeons with lots of ranged danger like Scale Caller Peak (the dead skeevers and poison vents), Falkreath Hold (so many archers and fire minotaurs), etc...

I would also use it on my Frost Warden for PvP in Imperial City for capturing flags and such.

I like being able to heavy attack to restore resource and taunt without spending resources.
Even though it was not always possible, it is/was an option.
I keep/kept Inner Fire on my Frost Staff bar (back bar) always just in case.



With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?
No.
I like the new Brittle, but I don't see how this changes my playstyle.
Maybe I'll change from Crusher enchantment to Charged enchantment.
I will likely continue to frontbar sword & shield and backbar frost staff.
Frost staff is still not good enough to put on both front and back bars.. so not sure how much the brittle will proc using just the back bar.


What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

The visual of performing the frost heavy attack. It feels wrong to me. It feels like forever waiting for it to launch.

Could you consider changing the visual (and sound) ? A three shot burst of snowballs? An animation around the end of the staff like swirling up the coldness to create the final snowball blast? Something distinct that gives more feedback during the heavy attack process.


Do you have any other general feedback?

Glad to see attention to improve Frost staff.

Rather see:
Destruction Staff weapon line : Fire (DoT focus), Lightening (AoE focus), Frost (Crit focus)
Support Staff weapon line: Tanking, Support, Healing

Hjorth

What level/CP are you on Live?

CP 1600

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?

PvE Tank, and a little dps.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

favorite: the new Minor Brittle buff.
least favorite: that you have to be on your frost staff bar to apply Minor Brittle, this either forces tanks into front bar the frost staff and stay on that bar for most of the fight, and the only reason we will even have a one hand and shield on our bars is the new buffed pierce armor.
Or what is more likely to happen is that healers(or maybe some poor dps) will use a frost staff, and tanks will keep using a lightning staff to set things off balance

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?

atm i am only using it as a main tank in very damage heavy fights, and i don't really see any change to that, hopefully i will not be forced to front the staff.
And i will probably start using Impulse in trash fights

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

i would very much like the Tri-Focus passive not to change your block cost to magicka, the new 25% shield looks good, but almost no pve tanks is gonna take that passive, same as now.

Do you have any other general feedback?

The taunt on Destructive Clench is worse than Inner Fire in every way, it cost the same, has shorter range and immobilizes enemy.

ESO_Nightingale

Hjorth wrote: »

What level/CP are you on Live?

CP 1600

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?

PvE Tank, and a little dps.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

favorite: the new Minor Brittle buff.
least favorite: that you have to be on your frost staff bar to apply Minor Brittle, this either forces tanks into front bar the frost staff and stay on that bar for most of the fight, and the only reason we will even have a one hand and shield on our bars is the new buffed pierce armor.
Or what is more likely to happen is that healers(or maybe some poor dps) will use a frost staff, and tanks will keep using a lightning staff to set things off balance

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?

atm i am only using it as a main tank in very damage heavy fights, and i don't really see any change to that, hopefully i will not be forced to front the staff.
And i will probably start using Impulse in trash fights

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

i would very much like the Tri-Focus passive not to change your block cost to magicka, the new 25% shield looks good, but almost no pve tanks is gonna take that passive, same as now.

Do you have any other general feedback?

The taunt on Destructive Clench is worse than Inner Fire in every way, it cost the same, has shorter range and immobilizes enemy.

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

JohnOfMarkarth

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

Hjorth

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

If they wanna turn it to into viable dps staff, fine by me.
I am just pointing out that with all the new defensive/support updates, the only reason a tank really has to use it, is the old 20% damage mitigation passive.

Cinbri

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hjorth wrote: »

What level/CP are you on Live?

CP 1600

What role do you typically play (DPS/Tank/Healer)?

PvE Tank, and a little dps.

What is your favorite and least favorite changes to Frost Staff?

favorite: the new Minor Brittle buff.
least favorite: that you have to be on your frost staff bar to apply Minor Brittle, this either forces tanks into front bar the frost staff and stay on that bar for most of the fight, and the only reason we will even have a one hand and shield on our bars is the new buffed pierce armor.
Or what is more likely to happen is that healers(or maybe some poor dps) will use a frost staff, and tanks will keep using a lightning staff to set things off balance

With these changes, do you plan to utilize Frost Staff in new ways? If so, how will you incorporate Frost Staff into your playstyle?

atm i am only using it as a main tank in very damage heavy fights, and i don't really see any change to that, hopefully i will not be forced to front the staff.
And i will probably start using Impulse in trash fights

What other changes, if any, would you like to see for Frost Staff abilities?

i would very much like the Tri-Focus passive not to change your block cost to magicka, the new 25% shield looks good, but almost no pve tanks is gonna take that passive, same as now.

Do you have any other general feedback?

The taunt on Destructive Clench is worse than Inner Fire in every way, it cost the same, has shorter range and immobilizes enemy.

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Sadly tanks also dont have enough of utility from frost staff

Onefrkncrzypope

Won't frost staff users need to double bar ice staffs and use ice glyphs?

Whats the uptime for chilled on a dps? Won't you need a charged staff to have a good uptime?

llBlack_Heartll

I am unable to test due to being PS4, however

Likes - Minor Brittle

Dislikes - Still not DSP Viable, Still more suited to a support role.

Feed Back - Move to S&B
Example -
Passive - Fortress - WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED - Reduces the cost of One Hand and Shield abilities by 15% and reduces the cost of blocking by 36%
WITH A STAFF EQUIPPED - Reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and the amount blocked by 20%.

Passive - Deflect Bolts - WITH ONE HAND WEAPON AND SHIELD EQUIPPED - Increases the amount of damage you can block from projectiles and ranged attacks by 14%.
WITH A STAFF EQUIPPED - Blocking Cost Magicka instead of Stamina

Skill - Power Bash - Morph - Power Slam - Bash the Air full-force with your shield creating powerful winds, dealing xxx Physical Damage to all enemies in the target area every 1 sec (AOE 10s)
With a Staff Equipped - Bash the Ground with the full force of your staff to create an elemental barrier in front of you, dealing xxx Magic Damage to enemies in the target area every 1 second. This scales off your max stat. Flame staff deals fire damage, Shock deals lightning damage, frost deals frost damage.
Resto staff Heals everyone in front of you for xxx amount every 1 sec.
This scales off your max stat.
While slotted, blocking an attack grants you a stack of Resentment, which increases the damage or healing of your next power slam by 5% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 10 times.( may need adjustment)

Fixes issues with Tanks needing to proc the crusher enchantment, gives Tanks a magicka option, gives the frost staff back to DPS.

I know what yal gonna say " Skill line says One Hand and Shield" well guys, we have been putting up with Support and Tanking in the "Destruction" Skill Line its time to move it on.

Option's - Would be removing With a Staff Equipped and Stating with a Destruction Staff Equipped. I'm not 100% sure if Tanks should have access to slotting resto healing abilities.

*****Power Bash will need to be weaker than Wall of Elements, it also may need to scale with max health.

ESO_Nightingale

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired. Every damn magdps runs the fire staff. And it's definitely time to see at least one dps in the group with a frost staff.

Onefrkncrzypope

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

ESO_Nightingale

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

YandereGirlfriend

@ESO_Nightingale Well said! And after Frost Mages get their day, it's time for Shock Mages as well. Down with the Inferno Staff monopoly!

Frost Staff needs a selfish DPS passive that can allow it to compete with Inferno Staves on an apples-to-apples level.

Something like 8% more Critical Damage done would come close to this and fit the overall theme that frozen things are brittle and easily broken.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Well said! And after Frost Mages get their day, it's time for Shock Mages as well. Down with the Inferno Staff monopoly!

Frost Staff needs a selfish DPS passive that can allow it to compete with Inferno Staves on an apples-to-apples level.

Something like 8% more Critical Damage done would come close to this and fit the overall theme that frozen things are brittle and easily broken.

we have just done some parses, frost magden is viable solo and in dungeons. it seems to parse the same as normal magden. but the trial dummy difference is about 2k for normal magden, unsure if trial dummy got minor brittle though, so the gap could be even bigger. maybe unstable wall of elements getting a dps boost is enough to make them fully viable?

LeHarrt91

I agree that Unstable Wall of Elements should remain a DPS skill and get back the 25% damage, if not more. Then have Blockade as the Support morph, Frost DPS is on the verge of being somewhat viable.

Onefrkncrzypope

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

llBlack_Heartll

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get the poor dps (frost magicka warden) to be able to run it since tanks soak up most of the utility.

Yet theres no reason to. OR should DDs have ice staff hamfisted into their hands with "tank donna want it, suffer this inferior damage, you have to or out of group"?
Brittle aint an incentive to use it on a DD, as its a support thing. Everyone except the person who uses the ice staff gains. The one who uses it? gains the same as them but loses the rest, and since every side of equation gains it... it can be ignored and ice staff DDs can be considered loss dmg on their end. If DD has it and not a tank or healer? Its a DPS loss of the group.
Therefore... I call *pinkbunnies* on the idea of Brittle being a frost staff DD help at all. It helps everyone else, except them, cus they lose 25% of damage on wall. Impulse is supportive and so are all other passives


But... they seem to really want to delete healers... and make a DESTRUCTION! staff a support staff in a DDs hand (yuck, was yuck ever since morrowind). These frost staff changes with the new pale order ring... might well delete healer-maining altogether. And do the same to magwarden DDs and their only elemental identity, brittle or not.

I dont wanna put on these... pink *pinkbunnies* glasses that say "its not that bad"... cus it is that bad.

The frost magden is a dream for several people. It's been bad for dps for the entire history of the game, and while it may still be bad for dps, it's relatively close enough for magden. So if we can get that going, it'll create a niche for frost dps that makes them desired.

And having the proc able to be back bar work perfectly fine for both ice role players and properly geared tank and healers.

They got rid of the HA taunt that confuses people and put the only staff effect not able to be back barred to confuse people. Just this time it won't be obvious that they are making a mistake.

Having chilled proc on back bar doesn't hurt ice mages or what ever. It will help them with uptimes to have multiple sources proccing chilled at the same time. Its better for both so why argue to keep a obfuscated passive?

It like wanting to keep the channel on poopfist. Makes it more viable that dps will use it... that turned out great. Tanks use it and hate it and sdks are still trash and not used. Surprise.

Why would this be any different? Tanks now have to front bar an ice staff and dks having a channel. Ice mages won't be desired they will be confuse why tanks can keep brittle up better because they can run a charged staff.

what ice mages will be able to do is keep up a good uptime on major breach and chilled on a group of enemies, while keeping up vulnerability on one enemy at the same time, though unfortunately the biggest problem seems to be the gap in dps between frost and normal magden at this point. it's relatively uncertain at this point in time what the difference in dps is, but i feel as if making unstable wall of elements a better dps tool still won't be enough. not sure, but waiting on parses.

Not as good as a charged staff on a tank. So that point is moot. That's the point.

You want to be accepted on a team but don't want to change the color of the projectile flying from your stick. I get it. I was a sdk dps but if the team doesn't want ice dps there and you don't want to change staffs I don't know what to tell you. I liked owning all the railroads in monopoly when I was a kid because in real life those where the rich people but did I ever win the game like that?

The main argument here is that ice dps people want more dps so they can feel better. Well I would like to have a sword and shield on my front bar as a tank but you know a far larger group of player wanting something is less important than being able to roleplay. Do you use nothing but ice skills? You mention vulnerability. Thats not an ice skill. Do you use the bear? Thats not an ice skill. Shalks aren't an Ice skill. Tbh magden is far less superior than a macro. Heck you can do the same amount of ice damage on a sorc with force pulse.

You want to get on more selective teams then you will need to sacrifice what you want for the team. If you can't then why should they select you.

Frost staff changes are still not for dps. They said it... mag tanking. They lowered damage, changed a skill to a taunt, Passives for tanking. Talking about these changes as a dps change is incorrect.

So ZoS, mag tanking isn't really much of a thing anymore, stam tanking isn't either. Tanking in general is truly the only well working hybrid in the game. Yes most tanks us staffs as a back bar weapon and tbh I didn't like it at first but it opens more utility and group support than just double barring sword and board. Ice staff backbar meta sounds great! Front bar, ima tell you right now you will have far more complaints and toxicity because new players are definitely picking up sword and board far and get hella griefed because of this change.

The Skill line is DESTRUCTION STAFF, what is DESTRUCTIVE about the state of the Frost Staff? Absolutely nothing. It should not be a Tanking tool it should be purely DPS.
Where are the DPS available skills in the S&B and Resto Skill Lines?