Clarification requested on part of the Code of Conduct, please?

Minyassa

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

paulychan

What about the "kiss this" emote I was given first day of play. The one where your toon turns around and slaps their buttocks whilst looking behind then and laughing? Can I still use that? What if I just avoid using it on easily triggered streamerz?

16BitForestCat

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

[snip]

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

kargen27

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

If teabagging was allowed it still is. If it wasn't then is still is not.

I'm mostly guessing here but I think the updated terms deal more with causing grief to streamers by harassing them in game and on their stream sites while they are playing the game?

AuraNebula

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

[snip]

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

Is it really? I had no idea. I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

zaria

kargen27 wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

If teabagging was allowed it still is. If it wasn't then is still is not.

I'm mostly guessing here but I think the updated terms deal more with causing grief to streamers by harassing them in game and on their stream sites while they are playing the game?

Cooperate drones adds vague terms of services so they can cover they back if its some sort of media backlash.
Or as its 2020 some snowflake with an cell membrane for skin might sue them for emotional damage being called out and kicked for fake tanking.

Now if some is streaming in Cyrodil or IC, well they give away their location in an combat zone.
On the other hand you don't get AP killing the same player over and over, this is not only to reduce harassment but also to prevent groups killing each others over and over farming AP.
Remember the Empiror achievement firing squads. We found that moving it to an delve solved other wanted to join the fight.

Now back then you could group in BG some people was training for BG doing set fights in Cyrodil for training.

Now is it grieving to kill an enemy player trying to get an skyshard deep behind his lines then you could waited and give him an death port out after collecting? Again vague for covering their asses, grow an backbone, now grow an tail to cover your ass.

SilverBride

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

Common sense states that.

VaranisArano

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

[snip]

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

Is it really? I had no idea. I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

It doesn't, explicitly. (I wish the new wording did cover it explicitly.)

If I cared to make that case to ZOS prior to the new language, I'd point to:

TOS 8, where we agree not to:
"Take any action, organize, transmit any Content, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, or guild that is harmful, tortuous, abusive, hateful (including “hate speech”), racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or is, in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or deemed to be in the sole discretion of ZeniMax inappropriate;"

Or the old wording of the Code of Conduct:
"2.5 You may not harass, threaten, embarrass, or cause distress to another customer or guest using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks, unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another customer's experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking Age, Race, Disability, Sexual Orientation, National Origin, Pregnancy, Gender or any other protected category under Federal or Maryland State law."


Teabagging doesn't bother me, so I won't be testing the new language out by reporting it, but also I don't teabag anyone out of respect for those who ate bothered by it.

markulrich1966

as long as they remain vague, I use other definitions as reference to decide if I report a player or not.

A quite accepted site is wikipedia, and as terms like "griefing" were new to me, I had to look them up (I an not native english speaking, and also not common in game-slang).

I reported a player after I found this part in the wikipedia definition (translated from german wikipedia):

"In online role-playing games, grievers mainly try to prevent other players from gaining experience points or successfully completing various tasks. For example, they go into game sections in which only easy opponents are to be found for their circumstances, but which represent a challenge for their teammates."

I reported a player who was campping in IC at the brazier where you must turn in components for the daily quest and killing them while they tried to do it.
Luckily the xbox has a "record what happened feature", so you can link a video as proof.

I don't know if ZOS sees this as a violation of the TOS or not, as they are very unspecific, but according to the definition at wikipedia I interpret it as such violation and hence reported it.

VaranisArano

markulrich1966 wrote: »

as long as they remain vague, I use other definitions as reference to decide if I report a player or not.

A quite accepted site is wikipedia, and as terms like "griefing" were new to me, I had to look them up (I an not native english speaking, and also not common in game-slang).

I reported a player after I found this part in the wikipedia definition (translated from german wikipedia):

"In online role-playing games, grievers mainly try to prevent other players from gaining experience points or successfully completing various tasks. For example, they go into game sections in which only easy opponents are to be found for their circumstances, but which represent a challenge for their teammates."

I reported a player who was campping in IC at the brazier where you must turn in components for the daily quest and killing them while they tried to do it.
Luckily the xbox has a "record what happened feature", so you can link a video as proof.

I don't know if ZOS sees this as a violation of the TOS or not, as they are very unspecific, but according to the definition at wikipedia I interpret it as such violation and hence reported it.

This is precisely the problem with vagueness.

Imperial City is explicitly designed to mingle PVE questing with PVP. This is glaringly apparent in all marketing materials for Imperial City.

Let's take an example: the Arena story quest features a multi-stage boss fight in the Arena. Players killing you there are preventing you from completing your task, so that's "griefing", right?

Well, read your IC achievements and notice that there's one called "Alliance Gladiator" where you have to "Kill 100 players while inside the Imperial Arena."

Huh. You mean that ZOS explicitly intends for players to kill other players in a quest location?

Yep, yeah they do. And no, no it shouldn't be considered griefing. (Especially when you've got a PVE-only option to get your tickets and rewards if you do one of the two IC dungeons.)

Minyassa

I just wish that they would answer my specific question definitively once and for all, so that it's in clear language and everyone can be 100% certain that either it is allowed and anyone who does not want to be teabagged simply must avoid PvP forever, or it's not allowed and people who want to do it are informed that if they do they are risking disciplinary action. The vagueness is detrimental in this specific case. The debate has gone on for years regardless of what's been in the TOS all along.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way I can get an official statement on this, please?

SilverBride

Minyassa wrote: »

I just wish that they would answer my specific question definitively once and for all, so that it's in clear language and everyone can be 100% certain that either it is allowed and anyone who does not want to be teabagged simply must avoid PvP forever, or it's not allowed and people who want to do it are informed that if they do they are risking disciplinary action. The vagueness is detrimental in this specific case. The debate has gone on for years regardless of what's been in the TOS all along.

I don't see what is vague about this. [snip] Just don't do it.

[edited for inappropriate content]

Eso101rus

Minyassa wrote: »

I just wish that they would answer my specific question definitively once and for all, so that it's in clear language and everyone can be 100% certain that either it is allowed and anyone who does not want to be teabagged simply must avoid PvP forever, or it's not allowed and people who want to do it are informed that if they do they are risking disciplinary action. The vagueness is detrimental in this specific case. The debate has gone on for years regardless of what's been in the TOS all along.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way I can get an official statement on this, please?

I agree, I think you make a really fair point and clarity is needed. The idea that people cannot teabag others in a video game seems extreme but if so people should be made aware before the ban hammer starts swinging. If the game is going in this direction I’m assuming that all the murder and thieving parts of storylines will be removed and blades cannot be sharp and pointed at anyone.....jeez 🤣🤣🤣

newtinmpls

zaria wrote: »

[with an cell membrane for skin

Quoted for giving me a fun laugh early in the morning. Because what else could skin be made up of?


And:

[snip]

This one I quoted for being a blunt, but non-profane summation.

[edited to remove quoted content]

AuraNebula

SilverBride wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

Common sense states that.

If someone violates tos they won't say it was common sense, they would give you a reason as to why. Everyone does it. To me it's not a big deal, it is just a bunch of pixels sitting on you. Usually after a giant zerg runs you down lol.

AuraNebula

VaranisArano wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

So don't be a dipstick, and watch it with those stick dips, everyone!

Is it really? I had no idea. I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

It doesn't, explicitly. (I wish the new wording did cover it explicitly.)

If I cared to make that case to ZOS prior to the new language, I'd point to:

TOS 8, where we agree not to:
"Take any action, organize, transmit any Content, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, or guild that is harmful, tortuous, abusive, hateful (including “hate speech”), racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or is, in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or deemed to be in the sole discretion of ZeniMax inappropriate;"

Or the old wording of the Code of Conduct:
"2.5 You may not harass, threaten, embarrass, or cause distress to another customer or guest using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks, unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another customer's experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking Age, Race, Disability, Sexual Orientation, National Origin, Pregnancy, Gender or any other protected category under Federal or Maryland State law."


Teabagging doesn't bother me, so I won't be testing the new language out by reporting it, but also I don't teabag anyone out of respect for those who ate bothered by it.

Thank you, this answered my question. Honesty teabagging is not that bad imo. There are all sorts of emotes that could be deemed offensive. Tea time, kiss this, sweeping, etc. Especially if it is up to their discretion I doubt there going to say people are violated tos when t-bagging. Almost every player does it in Cyrodiil, that would be a lot of players gone lol.

VaranisArano

newtinmpls wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

[with an cell membrane for skin

Quoted for giving me a fun laugh early in the morning. Because what else could skin be made up of?

Layers and layers of dead cells on top of more skin cells and melanocytes, then the dermis with its blood vessels, nerves and glands among other things, and underneath that you've got collagen and subcutaneous fat...oh, wait, you didn't want the science teacher answer? Oops.

Because a single phospholipid bilayer membrane studded with various proteins and cell markers would be real thin skin.

Strider__Roshin

VaranisArano wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

[with an cell membrane for skin

Quoted for giving me a fun laugh early in the morning. Because what else could skin be made up of?

Layers and layers of dead cells on top of more skin cells and melanocytes, then the dermis with its blood vessels, nerves and glands among other things, and underneath that you've got collagen and subcutaneous fat...oh, wait, you didn't want the science teacher answer? Oops.

Because a single phospholipid bilayer membrane studded with various proteins and cell markers would be real thin skin.

Come, Let's Get Some Beer!

kargen27

zaria wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

If teabagging was allowed it still is. If it wasn't then is still is not.

I'm mostly guessing here but I think the updated terms deal more with causing grief to streamers by harassing them in game and on their stream sites while they are playing the game?

Cooperate drones adds vague terms of services so they can cover they back if its some sort of media backlash.
Or as its 2020 some snowflake with an cell membrane for skin might sue them for emotional damage being called out and kicked for fake tanking.

Now if some is streaming in Cyrodil or IC, well they give away their location in an combat zone.
On the other hand you don't get AP killing the same player over and over, this is not only to reduce harassment but also to prevent groups killing each others over and over farming AP.
Remember the Empiror achievement firing squads. We found that moving it to an delve solved other wanted to join the fight.

Now back then you could group in BG some people was training for BG doing set fights in Cyrodil for training.

Now is it grieving to kill an enemy player trying to get an skyshard deep behind his lines then you could waited and give him an death port out after collecting? Again vague for covering their asses, grow an backbone, now grow an tail to cover your ass.

All that being said the old agreement covered in game activity. We couldn't harass other players in game before this update. Doxing and stream sniping includes activities outside the game. That is what this changes.

Jeremy

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

[snip]

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

haha I love this post.

I can't tell if it's sarcastic or not. The times we live in.

Minyassa

The fact that half the responses to this are "that's extreme" and half are "well duh it already wasn't allowed" illustrates exactly why I want a concise answer to this question.

Dusk_Coven

Minyassa wrote: »

The fact that half the responses to this are "that's extreme" and half are "well duh it already wasn't allowed" illustrates exactly why I want a concise answer to this question.

The pattern I see on the forums is, if ZOS can't police it, they won't say anything at all.

For example,

• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/542397/bug-some-players-received-60k-100k-crowns
• https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544489/can-we-get-a-summary-and-stats-on-the-actions-taken-in-the-case-of-the-crowns-received-in-error

On twitter they clearly said spending the crowns would be an exploit.
But then they deleted that tweet with no explanation (you can still see the tweet because people responded to it).
It was still an exploit because they did send people a warning letter.
However, they didn't (couldn't?) do more than that. They didn't even reverse the transactions.

So my take on it is ZOS couldn't or wouldn't properly handle the exploit. So they said nothing at all. Not even when it was initially reported on the forums.

Other cases:

• AP Boosting https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519709/ap-boosting-feeding-legit-against-tos
• Teleport-with-Scroll bug in Cyrodiil https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512385/shocking-repeated-cheating-by-a-guild-pc-na-kaal -- not even to say they're going to fix the bug
• Significant rollbacks in Cyrodiil https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511054/laatvulon-another-dc-rollback - no acknowledgement probably because they would then have to explain it or do something about it

zaria

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

[snip]

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

Is it really? I had no idea. I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Copypasting from something I said elsewhere:

Teabagging is ALREADY AGAINST THE TOS. It's considered an act of simulated sexual assault, seeing as the recipient has almost never consented to it in advance. You can absolutely and rightfully be reported for doing this already.

So don't be a dipstick, and watch it with those stick dips, everyone!

Is it really? I had no idea. I don't t bag people, but I die a lot so it happens to me haha. I just didn't know this was against tos, do you know where in the tos it states that?

It doesn't, explicitly. (I wish the new wording did cover it explicitly.)

If I cared to make that case to ZOS prior to the new language, I'd point to:

TOS 8, where we agree not to:
"Take any action, organize, transmit any Content, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, or guild that is harmful, tortuous, abusive, hateful (including “hate speech”), racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or is, in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or deemed to be in the sole discretion of ZeniMax inappropriate;"

Or the old wording of the Code of Conduct:
"2.5 You may not harass, threaten, embarrass, or cause distress to another customer or guest using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks, unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another customer's experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking Age, Race, Disability, Sexual Orientation, National Origin, Pregnancy, Gender or any other protected category under Federal or Maryland State law."


Teabagging doesn't bother me, so I won't be testing the new language out by reporting it, but also I don't teabag anyone out of respect for those who ate bothered by it.

You see how kicking an fake tank could easy fit here.
Again this is cooperate drones covering their worthless asses as its 2020 and anything is problematic.
Its not something they are likely to try to enforce.

That is unlike they activate the wild hunt as so much of the entertainment media has done the last years.
Burn it all CoA2 style as its 2020, this increase overland difficulty

SickleCider

Some clarification for people who don't see how it's simulated sexual assault: think about the word itself, "teabagging." [snip] The intent was to emasculate the fallen player via sexual assault, predicated on the belief that all video game players are men, of course. Your feelings about the severity of it aside, that's what doing the action actually means.

Note for mods: I hope that description wasn't too lurid. I'm trying to educate. I apologize if it causes some discomfort.

Sincerely,
That person who has been on the internet since the Pleistocene era and Knows Things

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

Jaraal

Versispellis wrote: »

Some clarification for people who don't see how it's simulated sexual assault: think about the word itself, "teabagging." [snip] The intent was to emasculate the fallen player via sexual assault, predicated on the belief that all video game players are men, of course. Your feelings about the severity of it aside, that's what doing the action actually means.

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

So, what about thrusting out one's buttocks in anticipation of oral contact? If one bought it in the crown store, is it ok?

Sylvermynx

Ummmm. Maybe y'all just put out the thought of a teabag emote on the crown store.... Eww.

newtinmpls

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Come, Let's Get Some Beer!

Raising a vitual Mike's Hard Lemonade in your virtual direction!!

SickleCider

Jaraal wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

Some clarification for people who don't see how it's simulated sexual assault: think about the word itself, "teabagging." [snip] The intent was to emasculate the fallen player via sexual assault, predicated on the belief that all video game players are men, of course. Your feelings about the severity of it aside, that's what doing the action actually means.

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

So, what about thrusting out one's buttocks in anticipation of oral contact? If one bought it in the crown store, is it ok?

I don't recall saying anything about that emote.

Jaraal

Versispellis wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

Some clarification for people who don't see how it's simulated sexual assault: think about the word itself, "teabagging." [snip] The intent was to emasculate the fallen player via sexual assault, predicated on the belief that all video game players are men, of course. Your feelings about the severity of it aside, that's what doing the action actually means.

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

So, what about thrusting out one's buttocks in anticipation of oral contact? If one bought it in the crown store, is it ok?

I don't recall saying anything about that emote.

Because you didn't.

But you're describing one thing that can be considered sexually manipulative or vulgar, while Zenimax is profiting from selling another emote that could be considered such as well.

If I approached my employer, thrust out my buttocks, and motioned for him or her to provide oral contact to them, what would happen? Probably the same thing that would happen if I simulated the situation this thread is about. So, people are asking for clarification about specifics. I suggest they consider what protocols are already in place, and respond accordingly.

Personally, I couldn't care less. I've been teabagged and /kissthissed.... I just laugh and go on about my business. I don't take offense at anything, as I choose not to let individuals have that sort of power over me, control my emotions, or dictate how I should feel about anything. But I understand how some folks could be offended by such actions, and I especially understand how some are genuinely concerned about what actions can cause them to be disciplined or even banned from the game.

SickleCider

Jaraal wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

Some clarification for people who don't see how it's simulated sexual assault: think about the word itself, "teabagging." [snip] The intent was to emasculate the fallen player via sexual assault, predicated on the belief that all video game players are men, of course. Your feelings about the severity of it aside, that's what doing the action actually means.

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

So, what about thrusting out one's buttocks in anticipation of oral contact? If one bought it in the crown store, is it ok?

I don't recall saying anything about that emote.

Because you didn't.

But you're describing one thing that can be considered sexually manipulative or vulgar, while Zenimax is profiting from selling another emote that could be considered such as well.

If I approached my employer, thrust out my buttocks, and motioned for him or her to provide oral contact to them, what would happen? Probably the same thing that would happen if I simulated the situation this thread is about. So, people are asking for clarification about specifics. I suggest they consider what protocols are already in place, and respond accordingly.

Personally, I couldn't care less. I've been teabagged and /kissthissed.... I just laugh and go on about my business. I don't take offense at anything, as I choose not to let individuals have that sort of power over me, control my emotions, or dictate how I should feel about anything. But I understand how some folks could be offended by such actions, and I especially understand how some are genuinely concerned about what actions can cause them to be disciplined or even banned from the game.

I understand. Though, please understand I don't really have a horse in this race. I just saw that some people were confused about the connotations of teabagging and wanted to provide some insight, since there is a factual origin. I think it would behoove ZOS to be a little clearer, but they probably won't be. There's a reason corporations use vague legalise.

SilverBride

You could speculate about this all day... or... just don't do it. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]