Clarification requested on part of the Code of Conduct, please?

SickleCider

SilverBride wrote: »

You could speculate about this all day... or... just don't do it. [snip]

I think this probably the ultimate takeaway, since it's unlikely ZOS is going to say yes this, no that. If you have any doubt about something you're doing being an actionable offense it's probably not a very nice thing to be doing, anyway.

Eiagra

Something that is useful to know when it comes to this is that there are a string of judgment calls that can occur.

First, the player needs to make a judgment call as to whether they have a complaint they feel should be reported due to the TOS.

If they do so, then next the employee needs to make a judgment call as to whether this complaint is valid using the procedures at their disposal (it's likely details on interpretation are internal, so we won't see them -- and it's likely these change frequently to comply with local regulations).

Finally, it's possible the employee may be evaluated on the accuracy of their judgment by their quality department. Calibrating to a consistent quality standard is possible, but that's an internal thing, so again, we wouldn't see that. If so, though, then judgment calls are made on how to interpret and implement these rules, then communicate them down to customer-facing employees.

There are humans involved, so by no means is it a perfect process. But if it follows something like the above, then there are opportunities for benefit of the doubt -- so, presumably, customers won't have to live in fear of these rules.

Time will tell what really happens, I guess.

Mayrael

TBH I'm more concerned about that stream sniping and griefing. I have never watched and never will, any streams, what if during e.g. IC event I'll meet the same player (let's say streamer) few times and I will kill him, from my perspective it was just a coincidence to met the same player while roaming IC, what if he reports me as a stream sniper?


What if (like I had yesterday) I killed player and took from him a lot of tel vars, then I moved to next district, as it turned out he respawned there and few seconds later by accident we've met again I killed him one more time. Just two kills but a lot of tel vars involved, can he report this situation as a griefing? IC is not that huge, it's not uncommon to met the same players few times.

What if someone hard tries on us time after time and dies? Are we griefing because we don't allow him to kill us, thus he's frustrated now?

Dusk_Coven

Eiagra wrote: »

Finally, it's possible the employee may be evaluated on the accuracy of their judgment by their quality department. Calibrating to a consistent quality standard is possible, but that's an internal thing, so again, we wouldn't see that. If so, though, then judgment calls are made on how to interpret and implement these rules, then communicate them down to customer-facing employees.

Even as far back as 2015 there have been forum posts attesting that even when a live person looks at a ticket, they don't even read it properly and as a result provide a completely irrelevant and incorrect answer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174185/disgusting-customers-service/p1

Can't seem to find the more recent post where someone asking a question about Maelstrom weapon drops was recommended by Customer Service to go buy one from the Crown Store. Maybe that entire forum thread got erased.

So, I'm pretty sure there's no effective evaluation / review process then or now.
And that should be our number 1 concern. You can have good rules but if the enforcement is seriously flawed, everyone is in trouble.

MerguezMan

From what I see here... I'd like a button to consent teabagging in advance in BGs.

Can we have that ?

VaranisArano

Mayrael wrote: »

TBH I'm more concerned about that stream sniping and griefing. I have never watched and never will, any streams, what if during e.g. IC event I'll meet the same player (let's say streamer) few times and I will kill him, from my perspective it was just a coincidence to met the same player while roaming IC, what if he reports me as a stream sniper?


What if (like I had yesterday) I killed player and took from him a lot of tel vars, then I moved to next district, as it turned out he respawned there and few seconds later by accident we've met again I killed him one more time. Just two kills but a lot of tel vars involved, can he report this situation as a griefing? IC is not that huge, it's not uncommon to met the same players few times.

What if someone hard tries on us time after time and dies? Are we griefing because we don't allow him to kill us, thus he's frustrated now?

Yeah, stream sniping is one of those things where it legitimately happens, basically as harassment.

But there's also the "I died on stream to the same guy but I don't wanna look bad so I'm gonna use the excuse that they were stream sniping me" type of "stream sniping."

I'm pleased if the first one is punished, but not if the latter is being weaponized.


And I'm definitely going to be annoyed by people calling perfectly normal PVP behavior "griefing."

Env_t

i think tea-bagging is okay
i doing and will continue to do it every day during pvp

BleedMe_AnOcean

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

[snip] I don't understand why people get so riled up about a video game character doing squats over their heads. It's the internet. We gotta pick our battles.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

preevious

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

[snip] I don't understand why people get so riled up about a video game character doing squats over their heads. It's the internet. We gotta pick our battles.

Well, because you full well know it's not just "doing squat".

It mimes non-consensual acts of the variety that can send real people into very real PTSD. Teabagging is not only "childish and unnecessary. It's also a borderline sociopathic and inhuman lack of empathy and a complete disregard to the trauma very real person could re-live because of that behavior.

It should warrant a total ban of the perpetrator.

Casul

preevious wrote: »

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

[snip] I don't understand why people get so riled up about a video game character doing squats over their heads. It's the internet. We gotta pick our battles.

Well, because you full well know it's not just "doing squat".

It mimes non-consensual acts of the variety that can send real people into very real PTSD. Teabagging is not only "childish and unnecessary. It's also a borderline sociopathic and inhuman lack of empathy and a complete disregard to the trauma very real person could re-live because of that behavior.

It should warrant a total ban of the perpetrator.

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

preevious

BuildMan wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

"Updated the ZeniMax Media Code of Conduct, with the most noteworthy change being that we added doxing, stream sniping, and intentional acts of griefing or humiliation to behavior we do not tolerate."

Will this include teabagging?

While it's definitely childish and unnecessary, I don't understand why people get so riled up about a video game character doing squats over their heads. It's the internet. We gotta pick our battles.

Well, because you full well know it's not just "doing squat".

It mimes non-consensual acts of the variety that can send real people into very real PTSD. Teabagging is not only "childish and unnecessary. It's also a borderline sociopathic and inhuman lack of empathy and a complete disregard to the trauma very real person could re-live because of that behavior.

It should warrant a total ban of the perpetrator.

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

Ok, but why, though?

I don't quite see the point you are trying to do.

Should I stop being indignant because some people will feel the need to do such things anyway? Should it not be an offense because of human nature?
No country ever legalized murder because "there are some anyway".

But relating more closely to what you said ..

Sure, replace it by something a little less worse, if it's all you can do .. I suppose it's already an improvement. Would be best if everybody refrained from such sad behaviours, though

SilverBride

BuildMan wrote: »

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

Why do anything?

Making any gesture after killing someone is only done to humiliate them. That makes it unacceptable.

Casul

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

Why do anything?

Making any gesture after killing someone is only done to humiliate them. That makes it unacceptable.

90-95% of tbags are used when someone deserves them. Good example, was doing a BG yesterday on my NB. Magsorc was on my ass and wouldn't let me cloak. I ran across the field trying to escape and he got me. He bagged me and it was deserved. Next time I should use my shade instead of clutching on cloak. Lesson learned.

Most of my tbags happen when I'm outnumbered and people try to jump on me. You come to the fight with numbers and I outplay you, hell yes I'm bagging.

Either way I'll just use kiss this. It's a little more inconvenient but it will still convey the message effectively.

And honestly calling it unacceptable is a stretch. In a game with murder, ***, and other mature themes are people really that impacted by a fully clothed tbag.

preevious

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

Why do anything?

Making any gesture after killing someone is only done to humiliate them. That makes it unacceptable.

90-95% of tbags are used when someone deserves them. Good example, was doing a BG yesterday on my NB. Magsorc was on my ass and wouldn't let me cloak. I ran across the field trying to escape and he got me. He bagged me and it was deserved. Next time I should use my shade instead of clutching on cloak. Lesson learned.

Most of my tbags happen when I'm outnumbered and people try to jump on me. You come to the fight with numbers and I outplay you, hell yes I'm bagging.

Either way I'll just use kiss this. It's a little more inconvenient but it will still convey the message effectively.

And honestly calling it unacceptable is a stretch. In a game with murder, ***, and other mature themes are people really that impacted by a fully clothed tbag.

This is where we will always disagree, I suppose.

You say it's 90-95% deserved.
I say it never is.
There is never *ever* a good reason to do it.

Also, please, do not presume what can impact people. Just strive to impact them the least you can.

SilverBride

BuildMan wrote: »

90-95% of tbags are used when someone deserves them.

No one ever deserves public humiliation.

Casul

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

90-95% of tbags are used when someone deserves them.

No one ever deserves public humiliation.

It's a videogame. You have the cloak of anonymity on here. There is no public humiliation. I suppose streamers could be considered public because they reveal information about themselves but now you are breaching into the territory of streamer privilege.

preevious wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

All you are going to do is rally an in game replacement for teabagging. At this point I'll just use kiss this, tea time, or flip the bird and I know many others will as well.

Why do anything?

Making any gesture after killing someone is only done to humiliate them. That makes it unacceptable.

90-95% of tbags are used when someone deserves them. Good example, was doing a BG yesterday on my NB. Magsorc was on my ass and wouldn't let me cloak. I ran across the field trying to escape and he got me. He bagged me and it was deserved. Next time I should use my shade instead of clutching on cloak. Lesson learned.

Most of my tbags happen when I'm outnumbered and people try to jump on me. You come to the fight with numbers and I outplay you, hell yes I'm bagging.

Either way I'll just use kiss this. It's a little more inconvenient but it will still convey the message effectively.

And honestly calling it unacceptable is a stretch. In a game with murder, ***, and other mature themes are people really that impacted by a fully clothed tbag.

This is where we will always disagree, I suppose.

You say it's 90-95% deserved.
I say it never is.
There is never *ever* a good reason to do it.

Also, please, do not presume what can impact people. Just strive to impact them the least you can.

And that's your opinion which you are entitled to. Best solution is Zenimax can add a toggle for the crouch animation so you won't see the animation. Best of both worlds.

Jeremy

If teabagging is tantamount to a sexual assault - isn't PvP generally unlawful? Last I checked hacking someone to death with a medieval weapon would be considered murder under current laws. So is ganging up in massive "zergs" and slaughtering everyone else - which might be considered an act of genocide. Not that I'm totally against the idea of putting people who zerg up on war crimes charges, though. I just hope they call me as a witness at the Hague because I'll have all kinds of damning testimony.

thorwyn

Also, please, do not presume what can impact people. Just strive to impact them the least you can.

This argument again. By that logic, we should all stop playing multiplayer games for good, becaue literally EVERYTHING has the possibility to trigger or affect another person. Can't use the drunk personality anymore, because someone might be an alcoholic, can't use the crown crates because someone might have a gambling addiction, can't use spider mounts because someone might be arachnobhopic. People with severe PTSD even might have completely harmless words that are triggering them. I've been working with a MPD person, who had flashbacks from hearing the word "sherry". It's impossible to avoid stepping on someone's toes from time to time. If a person has a condition where certain actions or images might trigger him, it his HIS/HER responsibility to protect him/herself.

Now as for teabagging, I don't see the big fuss about it to be honest. To me, it's competitive banter. Something like a taunt, like slapping your shield or doing a /rude or a /dismiss. People feel offended and attacked by everything these days, it's ridiculous. Apparently noone has a problem walking into a PvP area and trying to kill opponents with blades and fire and lightningand bombs and raising the dead to come and haunt the enemy... but teabagging by a bunch of pixels is a reason to go mental? That doesn't ring the hipocrisy bell?

tomofhyrule

I can't say I've ever been in a circumstance where someone 'deserved' a tbag...

Really, all it makes me do is roll my eyes. Especially when the person doing it won by blind luck or fighting an unarmed opponent. I don't really see too many PvP pros doing it, so it really just makes the person doing it look like a tryhard more than anything else.

I don't do much PvP at all, and even then it's really only MYM. I try to avoid fighting in the first place, but I can't say I've seen too many people tbag me for anything - in battlegrounds I try to revive as soon as possible so I'm not really looking and most people are running off to the next objective, and in cyro/IC I don't fight back and just hop back to base.

The one time I remember was when I was grabbing skyshards on the DC side of the Cyro map. I got what I needed and started the long slog all the way back home, when two people ran up and started attacking me. I sheathed my weapon and just let them kill me since I was tired and just wanted the port back. And then I watched as they both started tbagging me... All I could think was "wow, you're so leet ubers, you 2v1'd some PvE'er in PvE gear who wasn't even fighting back..." It was so pathetic it made me laugh, to be honest.

SilverBride

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one ever deserves public humiliation.

It's a videogame. You have the cloak of anonymity on here. There is no public humiliation.

There is no anonymity here. In this videogame world I am SilverBride. That is all anyone in this videogame knows me by and identifies me as. My game reputation is all tied to my account and character names.

In the setting of this videogame world, that is public humiliation.

craybest

teabagging is forbidden because the payer never consented to it? Well I didn't consent for other people to kill my character either lol
still I don't pvp so it does 't affect me much.

snarkomatic

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one ever deserves public humiliation.

It's a videogame. You have the cloak of anonymity on here. There is no public humiliation.

There is no anonymity here. In this videogame world I am SilverBride. That is all anyone in this videogame knows me by and identifies me as. My game reputation is all tied to my account and character names.

In the setting of this videogame world, that is public humiliation.

Oh my goodness ... really? "Public humiliation" because you died in PvP? If one has such a low threshold for shame, perhaps one might be better served not engaging in PvP at all.

Or perhaps one might be exaggerating, just a little, to try to prove a point.

Jeremy

craybest wrote: »

teabagging is forbidden because the payer never consented to it? Well I didn't consent for other people to kill my character either lol
still I don't pvp so it does 't affect me much.

haha, I know.

It's kind of silly to say teabagging should get you banned on a game where other players routinely surround you in massive bloodthirsty gangs and proceed stab you to death with knives and swords or drop comets out of space on you.

SilverBride

craybest wrote: »

I didn't consent for other people to kill my character either

Actually you did when you willingly stepped into a PvP environment. But that isn't what this thread is about.

This thread is asking if it's acceptable for one player to place their body part on another player's body. The only reason to do this gesture is to rub it in their face that you killed them and publicly humiliate them. That is not acceptable.

Jeremy

SilverBride wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one ever deserves public humiliation.

It's a videogame. You have the cloak of anonymity on here. There is no public humiliation.

There is no anonymity here. In this videogame world I am SilverBride. That is all anyone in this videogame knows me by and identifies me as. My game reputation is all tied to my account and character names.

In the setting of this videogame world, that is public humiliation.

Many players do it an effort to humiliate their opponent. That's true, I'm not going to lie. My favorite is when they do it after they and their buddies kill you as if they accomplished something special by having to gang up on you when the truth is they were the ones who humiliated themselves because they couldn't win in a fair fight.

But this is still just a video game, Silver Bride. That player is not actually sexually assaulting a real person but a video game character. It's also just logically inconsistent to say teabagging is bannable offense but it's ok to sneak up on someone and then stab them to death in the back - which is first degree murder.

SilverBride

Jeremy wrote: »

Many players do it an effort to humiliate their opponent. That's true, I'm not going to lie.

But this is still just a video game, Silver Bride. That player is not actually sexually assaulting a real person but a video game character. It's also just logically inconsistent to say teabagging is bannable offense but it's ok to sneak up on someone and then stab them to death in the back - which is first degree murder.

Your concept is flawed. Bringing game objectives into this, such as "sneaking up on someone and then stab them to death in the back - which is first degree murder" is part of gameplay. How well do you think a game would do that didn't have enemies to fight, and kill? But those things involve your character and npcs, or other characters who choose to PvP.

Teabagging someone because you killed them in PvP is you humiliating the person behind the character and declaring superiority over their skills as a player. That is a personal attack against the player, not the character, and is humiliation.

Dusk_Coven

Jeremy wrote: »

If teabagging is tantamount to a sexual assault - isn't PvP generally unlawful?

In the real world, suppose your team knocks down someone in rugby / american football. That's part of the game. If even a gang of you mow down the quarterback, that's still part of the game.
But once they are down if you then go and sit on their face to humiliate them you will and should be banned from playing competitive rugby forever.

There is "intended gameplay" and reasonable limits.

[Edit to remove bait]

ChaosWotan

Teabagging is nothing compared to the verbal sewage that some NPCs serve you when doing PvE, a f... disgusting dialogue created by hypocritical devs who demand that gamers behave.

In ESO you can take a knife and stab innocent women in the stomach, in the most graphic way. All this terrorist killing is sanctioned by Zeni. But teabagging, oh my, we can't allow such filthy activity in our fine game!

Clean up your own house before criticizing others.

SilverBride

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Teabagging is nothing compared to the verbal sewage that some NPCs serve you when doing PvE, a f... disgusting dialogue created by hypocritical devs who demand that gamers behave.

In ESO you can take a knife and stab innocent women in the stomach, in the most graphic way. All this terrorist killing is sanctioned by Zeni. But teabagging, oh my, we can't allow such filthy activity in our fine game!

Clean up your own house before criticizing others.

Two completely different concepts. If you don't like the way the game plays, then don't play it. But saying that it's ok for a player to humiliate another player because you don't like some of the things that happen to non player characters in the game is not even remotely reasonable.

Dusk_Coven

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Teabagging is nothing compared to the verbal sewage that some NPCs serve you when doing PvE, a f... disgusting dialogue created by hypocritical devs who demand that gamers behave.

In ESO you can take a knife and stab innocent women in the stomach, in the most graphic way. All this terrorist killing is sanctioned by Zeni. But teabagging, oh my, we can't allow such filthy activity in our fine game!

Clean up your own house before criticizing others.

You forget that the controversy over T-bagging and other griefing/humiliation is about players doing it to other players. That's the critical point.
PvPers always like to pretend that part doesn't exist. And deliberately ignoring that means you are deliberately sidestepping the discussion and trying to change it into something else entirely. That makes your so-called argument completely irrelevant.

If you don't like humiliation being against TOS, don't agree to the TOS. Clearly you know the amendment has been made.
Instead you agreed to the TOS and now try to weasel out of the rules. NO.