Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Alegna

SilverBride wrote: »

Alegna wrote: »

The worst part of leveling a character is the slow poke way you have to level your mount. It is so painful to do the stories going that slow for 60 days.

Then start a thread about how ridiculous it is that it takes 60 days to train speed on your mount (6 months to fully train all the attributes). This PvP skill has nothing to do with that issue.

Alegna wrote: »

It is really embarrassing to be on a mount that is going so slow while others are flying by you, especially the people with Rapid.

Do you really think anyone pays any attention to you when they are riding by? Especially the people who are using Rapid Maneuvers. They are going so fast they don't have time to notice you.

Why would I start a thread about leveling to 60 mount speed, when this thread is talking about lack of speed due to Rapid change. Having lower level characters, that are not mules, having rapid on them is a godsend!

Yes I do think ppl pay attn to you when you are riding by. People pay attn to other players all the time. What they are wearing, what gear they have, what mount they have, what cool emotes they have, and yes 'hey i'm flying by them ha ha ha". Stop acting all condescending about comments people are making on this subject matter. Read the next one or actually try contributing to the thread instead of spreading negativity towards other's posts.

Nicole94

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Is there going to be any official response to this? This change really depresses me and if it isn't reversed, I'm going to have to join the choir of those cancelling their subscriptions. It will be a while before I can do so, my sub is good until December or January, so you have until then to fix this mistake. [/quote]

"

ZOS_RachelM wrote: »

Greetings!

We've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting and bashing. It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

So is this ALL we get??? A parental figure coming in and telling the "squabbling kids" YOUR CUSTOMERS to play nice????
How about a reason this happened? Please do not insult my intelligence with rapids and vigor "swap" why not make Rapids unlock at rank 2 vigor rank 3, or both rapids and vigor at rank 3 giving a decision. "Do I need vigor, or would I rather go fast, grab another 3 shyshards or level once and then get the other because BOTH unlocked!

I am telling YOU right now I pay $54 a month, check it, I am NOT happy with this change. YES I KNOW I can get rapids on all my CRAFTING alts, but THAT is not what I want to do, and it is not what I had to do, and it is not what I pay to play this game to do!
I started this wild ride March 2 2014, I remember when this place died after it's initial launch because the game was so buggy and broken. I remember you guys had such determination to "get it right". Well GET THIS RIGHT

So, lets come to an agreement. You want to take rapids, make it much harder to obtain, I purchased 8 character slots, and rapids was a factor in that decision. You have taken rapids I want a refund of crowns and you can take your character slots back. Yes I have 2 characters that I actually play that will get KO'd and I will go back to my original 2 "mules" that is fine. I am not, and please understand me, I am not at all interested in spending HOURS getting rank 5 on all of my crafting alts.
You take away my enjoyment I take away my money.

SilverBride

Alegna wrote: »

Why would I start a thread about leveling to 60 mount speed, when this thread is talking about lack of speed due to Rapid change.

Because this was your reason for wanting this change reverted:

Alegna wrote: »

The worst part of leveling a character is the slow poke way you have to level your mount.

Alegna wrote: »

Yes I do think ppl pay attn to you when you are riding by. People pay attn to other players all the time. What they are wearing, what gear they have, what mount they have, what cool emotes they have, and yes 'hey i'm flying by them ha ha ha".

I have never heard any such statements from anyone the entire time I have been playing. Anyone who would think, let alone say such things is behaving very immaturely.

JoeCapricorn

Leveling alts is not my primary reason for wanting rapid maneuver back. My primary reason is the amount of time it would take participating in an activity that I don't always like to do just to get rapid maneuver back on all of my alts.

It is also impossible to ignore, because using rapids is practically ingrained in my muscle memory. Even when I go a short distance I use rapids out of habit. But I can't now, because it was taken away on most of my characters.

I have moderated my speech to the absolute best ability. But do I have to crack out the F words to drive home that I do not want to F-ing PVP for 50 hours?

Such a change is unprecedented for this game. They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

Ashtaris

johnebrown wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

This change has alienated a large number of players and I don't see Vigor users exactly whooping with unbridled joy either so the change couldn't have been made for gameplay reasons.

While I hate this change, Vigor is important as an option for many Stam users. I am mostly a Stam player and I see the need. But they should not have taken rapids away from those that already had it, and rapids should still accessible early for any player. I want to have my cake & eat it too. I have a great idea! put it at level 3!!
Are they listening? Hello?

Are you kidding me? ZOS listen to their player base? That's a good one!!

zergbase_ESO

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Leveling alts is not my primary reason for wanting rapid maneuver back. My primary reason is the amount of time it would take participating in an activity that I don't always like to do just to get rapid maneuver back on all of my alts.

It is also impossible to ignore, because using rapids is practically ingrained in my muscle memory. Even when I go a short distance I use rapids out of habit. But I can't now, because it was taken away on most of my characters.

I have moderated my speech to the absolute best ability. But do I have to crack out the F words to drive home that I do not want to F-ing PVP for 50 hours?

Such a change is unprecedented for this game. They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

It is in pvp tree. IF you don't want do it then dont get and use it? Simple really. My main has it bunch my alts do not and I causally pvp if that even I rarely pvp. It is not the end of world if you really want skill line to into bg's or cyrodill and level it. At this point from outside looking in there is zero argument. You can still play game with out it. You had 6 years to get to that levelin g thru pvp events you seriously have zero argument.

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

They add, remove, change things all the time. It's the nature of online gaming. And players complain about the changes with every patch, so this is nothing new. But I do think this change is being blown way out of proportion by the player base.

This doesn't change your ability to tank, or do dps, or heal, or otherwise accomplish anything in game you want to do. It's only going faster for a few seconds. That's all it is.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

They add, remove, change things all the time. It's the nature of online gaming. And players complain about the changes with every patch, so this is nothing new. But I do think this change is being blown way out of proportion by the player base.

This doesn't change your ability to tank, or do dps, or heal, or otherwise accomplish anything in game you want to do. It's only going faster for a few seconds. That's all it is.

That is your opinion, and you can have it. Doesn't change OUR opinion or make it less important. You are basically telling us that our complaints are pointless. You add nothing to the conversation, except your judgment. Well, you've been judged by me. I trust you know the verdict without me writing it

SilverBride

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

They add, remove, change things all the time. It's the nature of online gaming. And players complain about the changes with every patch, so this is nothing new. But I do think this change is being blown way out of proportion by the player base.

This doesn't change your ability to tank, or do dps, or heal, or otherwise accomplish anything in game you want to do. It's only going faster for a few seconds. That's all it is.

That is your opinion, and you can have it. Doesn't change OUR opinion or make it less important. You are basically telling us that our complaints are pointless. You add nothing to the conversation, except your judgment. Well, you've been judged by me. I trust you know the verdict without me writing it

I haven't told you anything. I am telling everyone having a fit over this that their outrage over a PvP skill now requiring that you actually PvP is just plain silly. Which it is.

Nomadic_Atmoran

In This Thread. Players pretending their outrage is about anything but how this change impacts them making gold.

Nicole94

It is in pvp tree. IF you don't want do it then dont get and use it? Simple really. My main has it bunch my alts do not and I causally pvp if that even I rarely pvp. It is not the end of world if you really want skill line to into bg's or cyrodill and level it. At this point from outside looking in there is zero argument. You can still play game with out it. You had 6 years to get to that levelin g thru pvp events you seriously have zero argument. [/quote]


This "You had 6 years to get to that" ESO had 6 years to make get this right and they gave this swap. It completely screws ALMOST the entire game population except certain stamina builds.
Your insulting comments add nothing to the situation. We are posting in these forums to HEAR from Developers, not you! I don't need or care about your judgements. I do not care about if you think there is a valid argument, or not.
I wish @ZOS_GinaBruno would at least give us a reason for this so that we don't have to be continually insulted by people I don't know, or care to know, or talk with.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

They removed a skill we had for 6 and a half years! I am not going to stop talking about it.

They add, remove, change things all the time. It's the nature of online gaming. And players complain about the changes with every patch, so this is nothing new. But I do think this change is being blown way out of proportion by the player base.

This doesn't change your ability to tank, or do dps, or heal, or otherwise accomplish anything in game you want to do. It's only going faster for a few seconds. That's all it is.

That is your opinion, and you can have it. Doesn't change OUR opinion or make it less important. You are basically telling us that our complaints are pointless. You add nothing to the conversation, except your judgment. Well, you've been judged by me. I trust you know the verdict without me writing it

I haven't told you anything. I am telling everyone having a fit over this that their outrage over a PvP skill now requiring that you actually PvP is just plain silly. Which it is.

Oh, well that is a very good point Silver!!! I think THAT is the change that needs to happen. Lets make PvP skills ONLY USEABLE in PvP. Then what you say is relevant. Vigor should only be useable in PvP. the Warhorn, should only be used in PvP, Barrier, Purge, Lets make all those skills PvP only.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

No it's not I have 18 character all are max level crafters for my dailies and you don't need rapids at all to do dailies also my alts are well alts I do use them to do content if you are not doing to work to maintain an alt why made it. Another way to look at it is you also had six to level PvP ranks and you didn't and now six years later PvP was changed in a way to help PvP players and you're upset cause a skill line was changed to better help players that the skill line was made for.

Except it doesn't better help PVPers. As has already been stated, on low level characters Vigor is not a good heal. Most PVPers who play on multiple characters also know full well that, unless you prefer to play permanently in the under 50 campaign, you don't even touch PVP on new characters until you hit level hit lvl 50, and have collected as many skill points as possible. The time saved in grinding those skill points by having rapids far outweighs the time you then have to spend, getting Vigor, which at that point is actually a heal worth having.

Let's look at stamina heals vs Vigor

Resolving Vigor heals for 15,080 health total over 4 seconds that's 3,770 health per second at a cost of 2,536 stamina no target needed
***Resolving Vigor 3,770 heals per second 15,080 total for 4 seconds at a cost of 2,536 stamina***

Two Handed 1 heal
Rally: Which heals for 3,425 health AFTER 20 seconds or instant if you recast it gains 15% more heals per second maximum 300% to get the 300% heal you have to wait 20 seconds but no recast to get a heal before that 20 timer end you need to recast at full cost so thats a 3,425 heal if you recast one second later but is costly Rally cost 3,213 stamina to recast it's full price so 6,426 stamina for a 3,425 heal no target needed. This is also at the end of the skill line.
***Rally 3,425 heal after 20 seconds at a cost of 3,213 stamina or 3,939 heal if recast one second later for a total cost of 6,426 stamina***

One Hand and Shield 1 heal
Absorb Missile: Heal scales from max health but for me that's 2,634 at a cost of 3,672 stamina. So long as you are hit within 6 seconds you also get a 4,813 damage shield you need to get hit by a projectile for this to work and the damage would need to be less then 7,447 to out heal and shield the damage but this is for build with more health then mine.


Dual Wield 2 heals
Bloodthirst: Heals for 66% of the last hit that last hit for me 3,765 damage that's 1,355 health 0.6 seconds after the attack starts and ONLY if the last attack lands but it mostly does. This skill has to within 7m so you are right next to your target.

Blood Craze: when used on an enemy you heal for 7,235 Health over 10 second. With a cost of 2,295 you get 724 health per
second for 10 seconds needs a target.


Bow 1 heal
Draining Shot 7,245 instant heal if you hit the target 2,797 stamina cost.


Soul Magic 1 heal
Consuming Trap 3,292 health when an affected enemy dies 2,781 magic cost


Fighters Guild 1 heal
Ring of Preservation 638 heals per 0.5 seconds for 8 seconds 10,208 health total if you stay in the ring the whole time for 3,396 stamina cost.


Psijic Order 2 heals
Symbiosis light attacks heal for 1,290 and heavy attacks heal for 1,146 per second but you only get 55% of that so 710 for light, 630 per second for heavy but you only get this IF you heal an ally so this useless solo
Meditate and both morph like Symbiosis are free cost ,1589 or 1801 per second depending on which morph you get.


Undaunted 2 heals but only one for a stamina to make use of
Blood Altar Lifesteal 635 per second when damaging enemies for 30 seconds 4,449 health cost.

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

SilverBride

Nicole94 wrote: »

Lets make PvP skills ONLY USEABLE in PvP.

That is how it should have been all along.

Nicole94 wrote: »

Then what you say is relevant.

What I say is already relevant. It is not unreasonable for a PvP skill to require that you PvP to obtain it, no matter where you end up using the skill.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

Well they are not going to make pvp only skills, ever, and especially not Cyrodiil only skills lol. I have 6 stamina characters that I leveled in pvp and got vigor and caltrops. With Rapids I could stay with the pack. I am sorry if people lack basic skills or reading comprehension to read the tooltips in their skills but ALL classes have had a heal since DAY ONE. They look at a guide or what someone tells them they need vigor and think "MUST HAVE VIGOR or I am treated unfairly" and never learn to play their class. My first two stamina characters leveled all the way to 50 w/out vigor. When you are on a brand new character you get a HUGE buff to your resources. If you can't survive, you are playing wrong. Rapids helped everyone. end of story.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

SilverBride

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

There must have been a good reason or they wouldn't have done it.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

There must have been a good reason or they wouldn't have done it.

You are assuming motive without fact or insight. I am sure there is a reason, there is no reason however to believe it is good as opposed to bad. It is just a reason as of right now.

The posted justification was to give new sta players a heal, which to be honest does not hold water, there was always a resto staff. Vigor if anything is much more an end game skill.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

There must have been a good reason or they wouldn't have done it.

[snip] I mean surely you KNOW that there has been constant discussion about making it easier to get vigor for YEARS.... But very few are happy about losing Rapids. How is making BOTH rapids and Vigor, since vigor is stamina only, available at rank 3 a bad thing? Or moving rapids to rank 2, Vigor to rank 3, both unlock after tutorial and giving you the opportunity TO CHOOSE which is best for you a bad thing? Or completely out of the Alliance War skill line and put it in fighters guild. MANY things could have been done, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Bashing]

Thechuckage

The "RIP EU" tread is over 100 pages, its not like there is some post limit that is going to be reached and the devs wont be able to respond.

Skills have been re-ordered in the past, internally within the skill tree.

Given that the alliance war rank was not taken away (and based off previous dev commentary) the only thing that has changed is what skill is granted at the alliance rank.

SilverBride

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

There must have been a good reason or they wouldn't have done it.

You are assuming motive without fact or insight. I am sure there is a reason, there is no reason however to believe it is good as opposed to bad. It is just a reason as of right now.

The posted justification was to give new sta players a heal, which to be honest does not hold water, there was always a resto staff. Vigor if anything is much more an end game skill.

My main issue with this is that it's mostly PvE players who wanted this PvP skill to use for PvE. I find it to be borderline exploitation that they would get this skill without PvPing at all, or ever intending to PvP. That is one reason I think all PvP skills should only be usable in Cyrodiil.

Noisivid

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

No it's not I have 18 character all are max level crafters for my dailies and you don't need rapids at all to do dailies also my alts are well alts I do use them to do content if you are not doing to work to maintain an alt why made it. Another way to look at it is you also had six to level PvP ranks and you didn't and now six years later PvP was changed in a way to help PvP players and you're upset cause a skill line was changed to better help players that the skill line was made for.

Except it doesn't better help PVPers. As has already been stated, on low level characters Vigor is not a good heal. Most PVPers who play on multiple characters also know full well that, unless you prefer to play permanently in the under 50 campaign, you don't even touch PVP on new characters until you hit level hit lvl 50, and have collected as many skill points as possible. The time saved in grinding those skill points by having rapids far outweighs the time you then have to spend, getting Vigor, which at that point is actually a heal worth having.

Let's look at stamina heals vs Vigor

Resolving Vigor heals for 15,080 health total over 4 seconds that's 3,770 health per second at a cost of 2,536 stamina no target needed
***Resolving Vigor 3,770 heals per second 15,080 total for 4 seconds at a cost of 2,536 stamina***

Two Handed 1 heal
Rally: Which heals for 3,425 health AFTER 20 seconds or instant if you recast it gains 15% more heals per second maximum 300% to get the 300% heal you have to wait 20 seconds but no recast to get a heal before that 20 timer end you need to recast at full cost so thats a 3,425 heal if you recast one second later but is costly Rally cost 3,213 stamina to recast it's full price so 6,426 stamina for a 3,425 heal no target needed. This is also at the end of the skill line.
***Rally 3,425 heal after 20 seconds at a cost of 3,213 stamina or 3,939 heal if recast one second later for a total cost of 6,426 stamina***

One Hand and Shield 1 heal
Absorb Missile: Heal scales from max health but for me that's 2,634 at a cost of 3,672 stamina. So long as you are hit within 6 seconds you also get a 4,813 damage shield you need to get hit by a projectile for this to work and the damage would need to be less then 7,447 to out heal and shield the damage but this is for build with more health then mine.


Dual Wield 2 heals
Bloodthirst: Heals for 66% of the last hit that last hit for me 3,765 damage that's 1,355 health 0.6 seconds after the attack starts and ONLY if the last attack lands but it mostly does. This skill has to within 7m so you are right next to your target.

Blood Craze: when used on an enemy you heal for 7,235 Health over 10 second. With a cost of 2,295 you get 724 health per
second for 10 seconds needs a target.


Bow 1 heal
Draining Shot 7,245 instant heal if you hit the target 2,797 stamina cost.


Soul Magic 1 heal
Consuming Trap 3,292 health when an affected enemy dies 2,781 magic cost


Fighters Guild 1 heal
Ring of Preservation 638 heals per 0.5 seconds for 8 seconds 10,208 health total if you stay in the ring the whole time for 3,396 stamina cost.


Psijic Order 2 heals
Symbiosis light attacks heal for 1,290 and heavy attacks heal for 1,146 per second but you only get 55% of that so 710 for light, 630 per second for heavy but you only get this IF you heal an ally so this useless solo
Meditate and both morph like Symbiosis are free cost ,1589 or 1801 per second depending on which morph you get.


Undaunted 2 heals but only one for a stamina to make use of
Blood Altar Lifesteal 635 per second when damaging enemies for 30 seconds 4,449 health cost.

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

This is a failure of game design. Classes should not be dependent on a non-class line for something as basic as a good heal.

esotoon

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

Did you miss the bit that said "on low level characters"?

On a Level 10 Character, looking at only the first 2 skills from each line, due to how realistically it is that the player is likely to have had time to unlock and level these skills. And including magic heals which are much more viable at low level due to the resource pools not being as different in the early stages of the game:


Bloodthirst = 60% of Last Attack (136) = 81.6 every 0.6 secs = 136 H/sec
Vigor = 351 Health over 8 secs = 44 H/sec
Blood Craze = 232 Health over 10 Secs - 23 H/sec

Necro:
Ruinous Scythe = 375 Health per target hit + 175 for every other target hit (instant cast)
Render Flesh (Magic) = 352 Health (instant cast) = 352 H/sec

Sorc:
Unstable Familiar (Magic) = 2798 every 1.5 secs = 1865 H/sec

Templar:
Honor The Dead (Magic) = 364 Health (instant cast) = 364 H/Sec
Ritual of Rebirth (Magic) = 264 Health (instant cast) = 264 H/sec

Warden:
Soothing Spores = 241 Health (Instant Cast) = 241 H/Sec
Budding Seeds (Magic) = Using the self synergy on this you can heal for 40 + 353 = 393 H/sec on first heal, and less than this if spamming multiples.


For those classes that do not have their own healing skills, it is also perfectly viable to run stam builds at this level with a restro staff. Some players would consider this method preferential when levelling due to many of the base class skills costing magic until morphed. So you also have the option of:

Illustrious Healing = 58H/Sec
Rapid Regen = 120H/sec


So again, on LOW LEVEL characters, Vigor is not that great a heal compared to other options. It does have advantages over some of the options above (such as not needing a target to cast, and being fairly low cost) however in terms of healing output it is far from the best. And yes, it is unfair that the most optimal way to level a new stam character is to have to run a restro at first, or to only run dual wield, but that's ZOS' poor game design. Moving Vigor at the expense of Rapids isn't the answer, especially when they could have made Vigor (or Rapids) the first slot in the Support line instead. The answer was to do what they said they would do (3 years ago now?), which would be to rework every Class Skill Line to be like the Warden and Necro, so that every Class has a DPS/Tank/Heal Skill line complete with Stam heal options.

Noisivid

SilverBride wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

No one talking on these forums about rapids is asking for input from you, or anyone else. We are writing here to get a response from the Devs.

These are public forums, designed for players to discuss and debate topics relevant to the game. Players may not always agree, but everyone has a right to express themselves.

I think they did the right thing by making this change. I just hope they continue and make all PvP skills only usable in Cyrodiil.

I see no reason then why PvE skills are usable in PVP, especially the undaunted line. Honestly one follows the other.

There is no good reason to have taken rapids away form those who already had it only to make them grind to it. There is really no good reason rapids needs to be at level 5, they could have easily made it level 3 and none of this would have been an issue.

There must have been a good reason or they wouldn't have done it.

You are assuming motive without fact or insight. I am sure there is a reason, there is no reason however to believe it is good as opposed to bad. It is just a reason as of right now.

The posted justification was to give new sta players a heal, which to be honest does not hold water, there was always a resto staff. Vigor if anything is much more an end game skill.

My main issue with this is that it's mostly PvE players who wanted this PvP skill to use for PvE. I find it to be borderline exploitation that they would get this skill without PvPing at all, or ever intending to PvP. That is one reason I think all PvP skills should only be usable in Cyrodiil.

do you seriously think the PvP skill lines should only be usable in actual PvP? I'm all for not trying to balance PvE and PvP together but at this point it's better if ZOS leaves certain things alone. (which they didn't with Rapids)

If you think the Rapids outrage is bad take a minute to think about what would happen if suddenly Warhorn was unavailable to Trials and end-game dungeon runners.

The forums would melt. just completely melt. nuclear fire raining down from orbit at the very least (in, of course, a metaphorical sense)

I just wish people would make a serious attempt to look at things from other players points of view.

No One is saying that Vigor should be switched back, or that stamina classes didn't need easier access to a good heal.
What they are saying is that a skill that they find essential for certain activities (and ESO gameplay includes things other than combat) and had been using for 6 years is suddenly locked and now they have to grind out 3-4 hours on multiple characters just to get back to where they were previously.
They're also saying that just because some players don't consider Rapids to be a necessary skill, there are a lot of players that do consider it necessary. Both sets of players are correct in their own opinions and for their own playstyles. Both Things can be True in this case. (Personally the only places I don't use Rapids are dungeons, trials, and battleground, where they generally can't be used, everywhere else I use it. (and I've still got Rapids unlocked on multiple characters, Alliance War skill maxed on a few))

I truly do not understand how people are missing that. Unless they are missing it on purpose.

Every player has a right to express their discontent with whatever parts of the game they're dissatisfied with on the forums. Or whatever other game related things they wish to talk about.

Rikumaru

Meanwhile PvPers have to grind out undaunted to level 9 for the passives, which per level takes far longer and its at rank 9.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

My main issue with this is that it's mostly PvE players who wanted this PvP skill to use for PvE. I find it to be borderline exploitation that they would get this skill without PvPing at all, or ever intending to PvP. That is one reason I think all PvP skills should only be usable in Cyrodiil.

You've offered no explanation as to why Rapids is a "PVP Skill", given that it has since the start of the game, and still is obtainable by only doing PVE in Cyrodiil? And despite making multiple changes to the skill over the years, including this latest one, ZOS have made no efforts to not make it obtainable this way?

SilverBride

Noisivid wrote: »

I just wish people would make a serious attempt to look at things from other players points of view.

I wish the same.

Elsonso

Noisivid wrote: »

This is a failure of game design. Classes should not be dependent on a non-class line for something as basic as a good heal.

I am fine with classes depending on non-class skill lines. That is why we have non-class skill lines. However, it should be possible to play entirely in PVP, or entirely in PVE, and have something like Vigor. That applies to other things, as well.

ESO has always had a rather disorganized and unplanned class and skill line system for combat, though.

VoidCommander

The reason for this change is so they can sell their duo-mounts that will be released soon. Artificially create a scarcity of a resource (moving rapids), they offer a solution with a price tag (duo-mounts). This change had NOTHING to do with ensuring stamina dps had access to vigor. I have 3 stamina dps and have never felt the need to grind out vigor even once.

James-Wayne

In here for the same thing... bring back Rapids!! My new MagBlade Tank doesnt have it now

Why not move skill to Offense tree, no one needs that shield skill!