Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

abigfishy

finehair wrote: »

[snip] You get about 10k ap for each keep capture, and another 10k for an average keep defence. If you ride with the generic lfg zerg you will be in so many action that you will get rapids in no time. If you are a magicka character, you can literally spam radiating regen with resto staff and people will thank you for it just for spamming 1 skill. If you are a stamina class, well you have your free stamina heal now so you better slot it and buckle up because the lfg zerg never stops and runs on the blood of melee players.

Don't forget to buy ballistas too, most people don't like sharing their sieges.

[snip] Sure if you have thousands of hours in PvP, know exactly what to do, are in a PvP guild, 810 CP and gold gear you can farm AP fairly fast. Try to be a low level character that does not know what they are doing? It took four hours to get ONE character from level three to five yesterday and I was in a zerg and I was spamming heals and repairing walls as much as possible.

[snip]

[edited for baiting/bashing]

Sgrug

johnebrown wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

This change has alienated a large number of players and I don't see Vigor users exactly whooping with unbridled joy either so the change couldn't have been made for gameplay reasons.

While I hate this change, Vigor is important as an option for many Stam users. I am mostly a Stam player and I see the need. But they should not have taken rapids away from those that already had it, and rapids should still accessible early for any player. I want to have my cake & eat it too. I have a great idea! put it at level 3!!
Are they listening? Hello?

That was recommended in PTS and yet here we are. One could surmise the feedback was not listened to. This outcry was predicted, nothing so far as the reaction to this has been a surprise.

Jaraal

ThePedge wrote: »

Vigor is an ESSENTIAL skill for Stamina PvP, solo PvE (like world bosses, dungeons. Not talking about overland stuff that you oneshot), and even Vet Dungeons or Arenas where you don't run Healers.

I'll disagree with this.

I have soloed many vet dungeons with my stamina character, and even though I purchased it years ago, I have never once had to slot Vigor in any content to survive and succeed.

johnebrown

finehair wrote: »

Just because you have over 550 accounts and 5500 characters doesn't entitle you to say "oh no now I have to grind it on all characters"
That is your choice to have that many characters, and vigor is actually an essential skill for stam characters whereas rapids is not.

Also farming about 100k ap in Cyrodiil is literally takes 1 hour at max

[snip] if it's inconvenient to have to grind something once, it would be 550 times more inconvenient to grind it 550 times.

Since I already had it, yeah, it's inconvenient to say the least.

It certainly has value for many Stam characters, but if was truly essential, why are there already so many stam toons & how have they survived all these years?

I have no PVP experience & I don't know how to farm 100k AP in one hour or less. I've never even seen anyone claim that a neophyte can do that. Oddly, all the PVPers in the guilds I am in say BG's are my best option. So I think the best I can do is BG's & they take much longer than that for me. [snip]

Most of the people here are not angry at the PVPers. I'm certainly not. This is not a PVE vs PVP issue. Many PVPers had constructive suggestions as to how we could all be happy.

[edited for baiting]

ZaroktheImmortal

ThePedge wrote: »

Vigor is an ESSENTIAL skill for Stamina PvP, solo PvE (like world bosses, dungeons. Not talking about overland stuff that you oneshot), and even Vet Dungeons or Arenas where you don't run Healers.

Rapids is NOT ESSENTIAL.

Sure, more people USE it. But that's doesn't make it a more necessary skill. You just lose a bit of speed while doing everything you can do normally.

Umm have you ever tried getting around the world on the starting slow arse mounts you get? Seriously you can run faster. And it's worse in cyrodil cause well even with rapids and maxed speed toon it takes forever to get anywhere in cyrodil. And without rapids well...it's quite difficult to level to skill line when the main place to level it you're going to take forever to get around. I'd argue that rapids is essential for everyone in pvp and pve.

ZaroktheImmortal

finehair wrote: »

Just because you have over 550 accounts and 5500 characters doesn't entitle you to say "oh no now I have to grind it on all characters"
That is your choice to have that many characters, and vigor is actually an essential skill for stam characters whereas rapids is not.

Also farming about 100k ap in Cyrodiil is literally takes 1 hour at max

Farming 100 K ap is not something that would take literally one hour max. Especially on a new toon or any toon who doesn't have rapids cause it takes forever to get anywhere in cyrodil.

OldManJim

ThePedge wrote: »

Vigor is an ESSENTIAL skill for Stamina PvP, solo PvE (like world bosses, dungeons. Not talking about overland stuff that you oneshot), and even Vet Dungeons or Arenas where you don't run Healers.

Ummm...vigor is not ESSENTIAL. I've run plenty of world bosses & dungeons without needing vigor even once.

TequilaFire

This could be mitigated some if they would add Major Gallop to the Steed mundus stone.
Or increase starting base mount speed stat some because where it starts now is horrible.
Then you all wouldn't have to join us "horrible" PvP people.

Athan1

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this [snip].

[edited for baiting]

johnebrown

RodneyRegis wrote: »

The game is absolutely stacked with grinds. Undaunted, RAT, the list is endless. Please stop saying you "earned" rapids, they were given to you for porting into cyro at Lvl 10 FFS. 100k AP is a pretty small grind in the grand scheme of things.

The game said do this & you get that. Doesn't matter how easy it is. That's earning it. Stand on a street corner wearing a t-shirt advertising a business as requested and you get paid for it. You earned it. Doesn't matter how easy it was.

Why do people keep coming to this discussion & complain as you just did. We're not trying to take anything away from you.

johnebrown

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

The casuals, RPr's and weekend gamers don't care about PvE and PvP mid/end-game players. So why should we care about your QoL? Adapt like everyone else does to the ever-changing meta.

That statement is so divisive - and yet it's also so very illuminating. If I'm interpreting it correctly your dogged support for the change to rapids is born out of your resentment towards 'casuals, RPr's and weekend gamers'.

This doesn't have to be a war - there are oft cited solutions that could've suited both sides of the debate.

Yes. I'm getting tired of having to say that. Seems some people come to this discussion just to degrade people

SydneyGrey

Athan1 wrote: »

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this [snip]

THIS.
Or it could have been moved to the first slot under the Fighter's Guild or Soul Magic lines, too. (Or Rapids could have been moved there.)
ZOS apparently was trying to pressure people into buying the Alliance War line in the crown store, or riding lessons $$$$ because they had ZERO reason to do it this way.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Vigor is an ESSENTIAL skill for Stamina PvP, solo PvE (like world bosses, dungeons. Not talking about overland stuff that you oneshot), and even Vet Dungeons or Arenas where you don't run Healers.

Rapids is NOT ESSENTIAL.

Sure, more people USE it. But that's doesn't make it a more necessary skill. You just lose a bit of speed while doing everything you can do normally.

Umm have you ever tried getting around the world on the starting slow arse mounts you get? Seriously you can run faster. And it's worse in cyrodil cause well even with rapids and maxed speed toon it takes forever to get anywhere in cyrodil. And without rapids well...it's quite difficult to level to skill line when the main place to level it you're going to take forever to get around. I'd argue that rapids is essential for everyone in pvp and pve.

Yup 18 times

Roztlin45

Athan1 wrote: »

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this [snip]

This is 100% correct. A simple solution and what should have been done.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Athan1 wrote: »

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this [snip]

A selfish morpf should not go under suport

Elvenheart

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

That would require doing that kind of a grind on 11 additional characters. It isn't as easy as doing just the tutorial quests either, Assault rank 5 requires 98,000 AP. That takes hours.

I don't have the time, motivation and energy to do that kind of grind on 11 characters.

I play ESO as an escape from reality, to destress, and Rapid Maneuver is a long-standing part of my gameplay. It's how I move around whenever I am on a mount. I have it on every bar on every character.

I have done the tutorial quests and it got me to Assault Level: 2. Whoop dee doo. If they required Assault level 3 for Rapids, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it is Assault level 5.

I don't have the time or mental energy to grind that out on all of my other alts. I am not going to. So I hope they change it back or find a compromise that makes everyone happy.

Many of my characters aren't built for PVP, they are mules and have no skillpoints allocated to weapons or armor. Just crafting. There is no way they would be able to get Assault to 5. But Rapid Maneuver forms a basic method of mobility. It allows me to get to a bank NPC (and when applicable) an Outlaw Hideout just to unload stuff or sell stuff on a guild trader.

It allows new characters to move around without feeling like their mounts are made of molasses. It will be 55 days before my lowbie gets 60 in speed.

Even then, 60 speed feels too slow. I like Rapids just to go faster. I just like going faster. You know what I would rather do? Grind for 11 other Rings of the Wild Hunt

[Edited for removed content] [Further edited to fix some grammar issues caused by previous edit]

Call me crazy but I just don't think crafting mules with no skill points allocated to weapons or armor should be prioritized for any balancing decisions whatsoever. That's a choice you made. I have a dedicated crafter, she's always been able to handle herself in a fight well enough to at least go delve diving for skyshards, even went out and got herself vigor at rank 5 because, well, I wanted her to.

Any character with even the most moderate skill set can get to rank 5 easy.

Magicka, any class, slap on a healing staff, go to Cyrodiil, type; /z healer lfg, wait 2 seconds, accept invite, follow group and spam heals. Don't worry about impen gear or anything like that, just position yourself so that your group is in between you and the opposing group. If you die someone will revive you. 1 hour tops.

Stamina, any class, slap together two generic crafted sets with an easy to get monster set you probably have lying around. Hundings, Brass, Slimecraw. All medium, impen on the crafted armor, sharpened weapons, doesn't matter trait or weight on the monster, and boom instant BG build. Generic AF. Bonus points for using New Moon over Hundings. Double bonus points for crafting it at cp150 to save mats. I usually get about 80k AP give or take from doing the complete 5 BGs daily, so let's say 8 matches tops, 10 if you're not trying. Pass this build between all your stam characters until they're all rank 5 and you're done.

How can level 10 chars wear 150cp armor sets and monster sets to do what you suggest?

johnebrown

[snip]

ThePedge wrote: »

All Stamina PvP characters require Vigor.
All Stamina solo or non-healer group content requires Vigor.

So in order to unlock Vigor, you had to endure PvP without the main stamina heal, in order to unlock the stamina heal.

No one requires rapids. It's quality of life.

No one requires Vigor immediately or they would have stopped making stam toons. If for years you could get to lvl 5 to get Vigor, it obviously isn't required. Is it more important to stam toons than rapids? it depends on your build & where you play, but probably. I just don't think it had to be one or the other.
I wish people would stop being so definitive about things that are not definite.
The majority of my toons are stam and most do not have vigor, including the ones that can solo many world bosses.
YMMV

[edited for spam]

johnebrown

Sgrug wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

Gotta love conspiracy theories

These folks are professional marketers. They would not do something they knew would alienate a large portion of the player base if they didn't think the returns were worth it. The only other alternative is that an entire team of marketing professionals were so inept that they couldn't imagine the outcry of resentment over having a useful skill players have had for years rescinded on a whim. I'm sorry, but that's not even possible. The real conspiracy theory is to say that nobody thought yanking Rapids would have any affect on the players at all.

The bolded part stands alone on its own without need for further justification, it is nearly apodictic.

Cool, I learned a new word

BalticBlues

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many CRAFTING/STORAGE ALTS do not have COMBAT skills/sets.
ALL skill points go into CRAFTING (and 1 into RAPIDS)
Now, AFTER 6 YEARS, you take away our rapids?

ALL PLAYERS can benefit from Rapids - ONLY STAM PLAYERS can benefit from Vigor.
Because of this, probably more players will be punished than pleased by the change.
ZOS, this is a RPG. Please do not take away skills from us what we earned in the game.

Solution suggestion as a compromise:
DAILY LOGIN REWARDS of September could be 10x enough AP TO RESTORE RAPIDS.
If 10 alts could restore their rapids, most players should be fine; others also would enjoy the AP.

johnebrown wrote: »

That works for me - great idea!
Now, will they think so too?

Many people believe that ZOS took away our Rapids for selling more riding lessons and Alliance war skills in the Crown store. By giving away enough AP via the monthly login rewards to restore our Rapids, ZOS now could prove that the monetarization of riding skills was not their intention.

Athan1

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this inconvenience and rants.

A selfish morpf should not go under suport

But a healing spell should go under assault?

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings!

Given the baiting and bashing nature of several posts, we have gone ahead and removed them. It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion. This goes for abusive and disruptive comments and behavior that are directed at a ZeniMax Online employee and ESO community member, alike.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Athan1 wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

AAAND all of this drama could have been avoided if Vigor was just moved to the first slot of the Support tree, where it truly belongs Nobody would have cared and we wouldn't have needed all this inconvenience and rants.

A selfish morpf should not go under suport

But a healing spell should go under assault?

Yes.

If you can't see the value and importance of a good self-heal for a chaotic keep assault I don't know what to tell you.

Elsonso

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many people believe that ZOS took away our Rapids for selling more riding lessons and Alliance war skills in the Crown store. By giving away enough AP via the monthly login rewards to restore our Rapids, ZOS now could prove that the monetarization of riding skills was not their intention.

Many people believe a lot of things.

While many people might be using Rapid Maneuvers, I think that more people are not using it, particularly in PVE. I suspect that if many people knew how many more people were not using it, they would be stunned. Maybe many people would assume that ZOS is lying, as clearly more people should be using Rapid Maneuvers.

I don't think this has anything at all to do with finances. It seems clear to me that ZOS feels that more people can benefit from an easier-to-access Vigor than Rapid Maneuvers, even if many people want to use Rapid Maneuvers. It is that simple.

That does not change the fact that they went about this all wrong. There seems to be a ZOS thing where they get a great idea to improve the game, then come up with a terrible way to make it happen. It is like ZOS can't do a good idea without also doing a bad idea to offset it.

Malthorne

This is a monetization scheme. ZOS saw an opportunity to sell items in the crownstore by making a change to a desired ability and grabbed the bull by the horns. This lines up nicely with the release of a group mount as well., but I’m sure that’s just a coincidence 😉 If they wanted to make vigor easier to access they simply could have done so without changing anything else to the alliance skill lines.

The rapids change doesn’t really affect me because I could very easily gain 100 AP on any character, but I do sympathize with those who are affected. This is just another example of ZOS completely ignoring massive amounts of feedback from the community. Very much like the vMA debacle with Greymoor imo.

esotoon

Elsonso wrote: »

While many people might be using Rapid Maneuvers, I think that more people are not using it, particularly in PVE. I suspect that if many people knew how many more people were not using it, they would be stunned. Maybe many people would assume that ZOS is lying, as clearly more people should be using Rapid Maneuvers.

I don't think this has anything at all to do with finances. It seems clear to me that ZOS feels that more people can benefit from an easier-to-access Vigor than Rapid Maneuvers, even if many people want to use Rapid Maneuvers. It is that simple.

Whilst it is true, no one can say what the numbers are when it comes to people using Rapids v people needing Vigor, I can tell you with certainty, that the difference between numbers of people using rapids and the number of people using siege shields is massive. They are only used in Cyrodiil, and it is rare to see more than 3 or 4 siege shields in any siege battle, even when that battel involves 50+ players.

So if this change is purely down to what is most useful and used the most by players, why would they not swap things round so that Vigor and Rapids are the first skills in the two Assault lines, and move Siege Shield down to needing rank 5?

JoeCapricorn

I say if they wanted to make Vigor more accessible, just keep that at the second spot and have it require Assault 3

Sanctum74

BalticBlues wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many CRAFTING/STORAGE ALTS do not have COMBAT skills/sets.
ALL skill points go into CRAFTING (and 1 into RAPIDS)
Now, AFTER 6 YEARS, you take away our rapids?

ALL PLAYERS can benefit from Rapids - ONLY STAM PLAYERS can benefit from Vigor.
Because of this, probably more players will be punished than pleased by the change.
ZOS, this is a RPG. Please do not take away skills from us what we earned in the game.

Solution suggestion as a compromise:
DAILY LOGIN REWARDS of September could be 10x enough AP TO RESTORE RAPIDS.
If 10 alts could restore their rapids, most players should be fine; others also would enjoy the AP.

johnebrown wrote: »

That works for me - great idea!
Now, will they think so too?

Many people believe that ZOS took away our Rapids for selling more riding lessons and Alliance war skills in the Crown store. By giving away enough AP via the monthly login rewards to restore our Rapids, ZOS now could prove that the monetarization of riding skills was not their intention.

False, there is not enough ap given for 1 character let alone 10.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many CRAFTING/STORAGE ALTS do not have COMBAT skills/sets.
ALL skill points go into CRAFTING (and 1 into RAPIDS)
Now, AFTER 6 YEARS, you take away our rapids?

ALL PLAYERS can benefit from Rapids - ONLY STAM PLAYERS can benefit from Vigor.
Because of this, probably more players will be punished than pleased by the change.
ZOS, this is a RPG. Please do not take away skills from us what we earned in the game.

Solution suggestion as a compromise:
DAILY LOGIN REWARDS of September could be 10x enough AP TO RESTORE RAPIDS.
If 10 alts could restore their rapids, most players should be fine; others also would enjoy the AP.

So skill lines can't change cause after six year you don't put any work into your alts?

Sgrug

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many CRAFTING/STORAGE ALTS do not have COMBAT skills/sets.
ALL skill points go into CRAFTING (and 1 into RAPIDS)
Now, AFTER 6 YEARS, you take away our rapids?

ALL PLAYERS can benefit from Rapids - ONLY STAM PLAYERS can benefit from Vigor.
Because of this, probably more players will be punished than pleased by the change.
ZOS, this is a RPG. Please do not take away skills from us what we earned in the game.

Solution suggestion as a compromise:
DAILY LOGIN REWARDS of September could be 10x enough AP TO RESTORE RAPIDS.
If 10 alts could restore their rapids, most players should be fine; others also would enjoy the AP.

So skill lines can't change cause after six year you don't put any work into your alts?

A skill obtained and used for 6 years that has been so since beta should not be taken away only to have to re-obtain it. So yes in this case. Taking away something in an online game only to make players re-obtain the exact same thing just adding time and frustration to it is wrong.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Sgrug wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Many CRAFTING/STORAGE ALTS do not have COMBAT skills/sets.
ALL skill points go into CRAFTING (and 1 into RAPIDS)
Now, AFTER 6 YEARS, you take away our rapids?

ALL PLAYERS can benefit from Rapids - ONLY STAM PLAYERS can benefit from Vigor.
Because of this, probably more players will be punished than pleased by the change.
ZOS, this is a RPG. Please do not take away skills from us what we earned in the game.

Solution suggestion as a compromise:
DAILY LOGIN REWARDS of September could be 10x enough AP TO RESTORE RAPIDS.
If 10 alts could restore their rapids, most players should be fine; others also would enjoy the AP.

So skill lines can't change cause after six year you don't put any work into your alts?

A skill obtained and used for 6 years that has been so since beta should not be taken away only to have to re-obtain it. So yes in this case. Taking away something in an online game only to make players re-obtain the exact same thing just adding time and frustration to it is wrong.

No it's not I have 18 character all are max level crafters for my dailies and you don't need rapids at all to do dailies also my alts are well alts I do use them to do content if you are not doing to work to maintain an alt why made it. Another way to look at it is you also had six to level PvP ranks and you didn't and now six years later PvP was changed in a way to help PvP players and you're upset cause a skill line was changed to better help players that the skill line was made for.