Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

JoeCapricorn

This topic isn't about undaunted grinding. I don't care about undaunted grinding. I haven't even done it on all of my characters.

I guess I should consider myself lucky - I spent a LOT of time on one character these past six years, so I have rapids on him, I have undaunted maxed out on him as well. Probably going to play him almost exclusively during this upcoming Imperial City event, because he is the only character where my play style is going to work.

Vampire invisible naruto runs, baby!

BUT...

There are times when I want to play on some of my other characters beyond just doing crafting writs. I actually was doing so on the daily on five different characters simultaneously, many of them I just did a delve daily. I would have been much MUCH MUCH MUCH louder had I known about this change beforehand. Even when on those alts, using rapids is built into my muscle memory. It is impossible to ignore something that has been so ingrained as a habit. This is like ZOS putting the ability to block behind some wall.

If I liked PVP, I would have had Grand Overlord by now on my main. I DON'T. I just don't feel like PVP all the time. I certainly do not feel like going through 60 hours of it to get back a skill that I had already for six years.

AlnilamE

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

No it's not I have 18 character all are max level crafters for my dailies and you don't need rapids at all to do dailies also my alts are well alts I do use them to do content if you are not doing to work to maintain an alt why made it. Another way to look at it is you also had six to level PvP ranks and you didn't and now six years later PvP was changed in a way to help PvP players and you're upset cause a skill line was changed to better help players that the skill line was made for.

Except it doesn't better help PVPers. As has already been stated, on low level characters Vigor is not a good heal. Most PVPers who play on multiple characters also know full well that, unless you prefer to play permanently in the under 50 campaign, you don't even touch PVP on new characters until you hit level hit lvl 50, and have collected as many skill points as possible. The time saved in grinding those skill points by having rapids far outweighs the time you then have to spend, getting Vigor, which at that point is actually a heal worth having.

Let's look at stamina heals vs Vigor

Resolving Vigor heals for 15,080 health total over 4 seconds that's 3,770 health per second at a cost of 2,536 stamina no target needed
***Resolving Vigor 3,770 heals per second 15,080 total for 4 seconds at a cost of 2,536 stamina***

Two Handed 1 heal
Rally: Which heals for 3,425 health AFTER 20 seconds or instant if you recast it gains 15% more heals per second maximum 300% to get the 300% heal you have to wait 20 seconds but no recast to get a heal before that 20 timer end you need to recast at full cost so thats a 3,425 heal if you recast one second later but is costly Rally cost 3,213 stamina to recast it's full price so 6,426 stamina for a 3,425 heal no target needed. This is also at the end of the skill line.
***Rally 3,425 heal after 20 seconds at a cost of 3,213 stamina or 3,939 heal if recast one second later for a total cost of 6,426 stamina***

One Hand and Shield 1 heal
Absorb Missile: Heal scales from max health but for me that's 2,634 at a cost of 3,672 stamina. So long as you are hit within 6 seconds you also get a 4,813 damage shield you need to get hit by a projectile for this to work and the damage would need to be less then 7,447 to out heal and shield the damage but this is for build with more health then mine.


Dual Wield 2 heals
Bloodthirst: Heals for 66% of the last hit that last hit for me 3,765 damage that's 1,355 health 0.6 seconds after the attack starts and ONLY if the last attack lands but it mostly does. This skill has to within 7m so you are right next to your target.

Blood Craze: when used on an enemy you heal for 7,235 Health over 10 second. With a cost of 2,295 you get 724 health per
second for 10 seconds needs a target.


Bow 1 heal
Draining Shot 7,245 instant heal if you hit the target 2,797 stamina cost.


Soul Magic 1 heal
Consuming Trap 3,292 health when an affected enemy dies 2,781 magic cost


Fighters Guild 1 heal
Ring of Preservation 638 heals per 0.5 seconds for 8 seconds 10,208 health total if you stay in the ring the whole time for 3,396 stamina cost.


Psijic Order 2 heals
Symbiosis light attacks heal for 1,290 and heavy attacks heal for 1,146 per second but you only get 55% of that so 710 for light, 630 per second for heavy but you only get this IF you heal an ally so this useless solo
Meditate and both morph like Symbiosis are free cost ,1589 or 1801 per second depending on which morph you get.


Undaunted 2 heals but only one for a stamina to make use of
Blood Altar Lifesteal 635 per second when damaging enemies for 30 seconds 4,449 health cost.

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

You forgot Mark Target

TrelNord

I sort of wish that everyone would stop complaining about this and just accept that it has nothing to do with user experience and everything to do with selling training scrolls or whatever comes next in the Crown Store.

They can monetize this and that is what is important.

Maybe you'll quit, maybe you won't but in the end plenty of people will spend real-world monies to work around this and that is what is known as a business model.

It should be telling that the only official response in this thread is to remind us to be nice to one another when voicing frustration.

At the end of the day though - ZOS took hostage a basic quality-of-life feature and they aren't about to give it back.

It's important to think hard about where and how your spend your real-world money.

Kiyakotari

TrelNord wrote: »

I sort of wish that everyone would stop complaining about this and just accept that it has nothing to do with user experience and everything to do with selling training scrolls or whatever comes next in the Crown Store.

They can monetize this and that is what is important.

Maybe you'll quit, maybe you won't but in the end plenty of people will spend real-world monies to work around this and that is what is known as a business model.

It should be telling that the only official response in this thread is to remind us to be nice to one another when voicing frustration.

At the end of the day though - ZOS took hostage a basic quality-of-life feature and they aren't about to give it back.

It's important to think hard about where and how your spend your real-world money.

I've assumed from the time this change was announced that it was part of the ZOS plan to market - and thus sell more - two player mounts.

After all, if you've got a friend who just started playing with you, and their mount is slow as heck, do you leave them in the dust? No! You have them grab Rapids when they hit level 10 and - oh, wait. Darn. Well, then you just have them hop on the back of your SHINY NEW TWO PLAYER MOUNT and they get to benefit from your mount speed upgrades as you zip around PvE and/or PvP zones, right?

Same thing if you're a veteran player, and just rolled a new toon. Do you put up with slow mount speed, or do you have one of your buddies haul you around on that new mount they'll be selling soon?

Ascarl

I am usually pro for "raise the floor" but this is ridicolous. Riding is not as slow as descriped unless your riding skills are untrained and you are not sprinting. I assume all those "mule" characters are untrained riders. And even then, why do you need extra speed on mules? My mules are usually in town doing crafting dailies. You can do them perfectly fine without speed. Usually you have all styles on one crafter. Even if that style crafter is a non-combat char. Then respec, pvp for an afternoon and your fine.
And you can PVP without rapids, I sometimes do even whiöe I have it available just because of bar space. This is all with fully trained horse, without fuöly trained horse, you problem is the horse skill not rapids.

silvereyes

As tempting as it is to blame the change on a nefarious desire to sell more duo-mounts and riding lessons, I think it more likely that this is just another of hundreds of examples of ZOS making changes without thinking things through, or caring about unintended consequences.

I don't doubt the combat team's stated intention of wanting to open up a good heal to all stam players. But the way they went about it, by sacrificing mobility for a large portion of the player base, including new players, will have many undesirable effects:

• More tentative new players will probably just opt out of the game entirely. Riding is a core part of exploration (and thus most of the game, early on), and riding slowly is just no fun.
• Puts up even more barriers to players entering Cyrodiil, even those who want learn to PvP.
• The sleaze-factor for the game increases. Whether it's by design or not, there is definitely the impression that the design team intentionally crippled mobility in order to sell more Crown store upgrades.
• Punishes a very large population of crafting and farming characters who never hurt anyone. Is it the end of the world? No. But why? Why kill the fun for such a large population unnecessarily?
• Perpetuates the stamina kit's reliance on non-class skills, instead of doing the work to actually give good class-based stamina heals to the original 4 classes like were done with Warden and Necro.

Other than that last bullet point, the core issue is that mount speed is so seriously tedious without Rapids to begin with. There are many solutions to the problem that ZOS could have, and still could, implement if they care to do so. Any of the following would work.

1. Move rapids to the first skill in Support. It fits perfectly with the theme. You can't support a group if you can't keep up with them. You can't scout without speed. Perhaps move flare into the Assault line, since it is more of an attack anyways.
2. Buff all mount speed across the board by 20% and nerf Rapids down to only a 10% increase in mount speed (Minor Gallop).
3. Move Rapids back to the first Assault skill. Figure out a way to get a stamina heal into the first ability in some non-PvP skill line, like Undaunted or Fighter's Guild. The trick would be what to displace. For the money, I think getting rid of Trapping Webs from Undaunted and adding a general non-synergy-based fear ability to Assault would be a nice trade.

ZaroktheImmortal

silvereyes wrote: »

As tempting as it is to blame the change on a nefarious desire to sell more duo-mounts and riding lessons, I think it more likely that this is just another of hundreds of examples of ZOS making changes without thinking things through, or caring about unintended consequences.

I don't doubt the combat team's stated intention of wanting to open up a good heal to all stam players. But the way they went about it, by sacrificing mobility for a large portion of the player base, including new players, will have many undesirable effects:

• More tentative new players will probably just opt out of the game entirely. Riding is a core part of exploration (and thus most of the game, early on), and riding slowly is just no fun.
• Puts up even more barriers to players entering Cyrodiil, even those who want learn to PvP.
• The sleaze-factor for the game increases. Whether it's by design or not, there is definitely the impression that the design team intentionally crippled mobility in order to sell more Crown store upgrades.
• Punishes a very large population of crafting and farming characters who never hurt anyone. Is it the end of the world? No. But why? Why kill the fun for such a large population unnecessarily?
• Perpetuates the stamina kit's reliance on non-class skills, instead of doing the work to actually give good class-based stamina heals to the original 4 classes like were done with Warden and Necro.

Other than that last bullet point, the core issue is that mount speed is so seriously tedious without Rapids to begin with. There are many solutions to the problem that ZOS could have, and still could, implement if they care to do so. Any of the following would work.

1. Move rapids to the first skill in Support. It fits perfectly with the theme. You can't support a group if you can't keep up with them. You can't scout without speed. Perhaps move flare into the Assault line, since it is more of an attack anyways.
2. Buff all mount speed across the board by 20% and nerf Rapids down to only a 10% increase in mount speed (Minor Gallop).
3. Move Rapids back to the first Assault skill. Figure out a way to get a stamina heal into the first ability in some non-PvP skill line, like Undaunted or Fighter's Guild. The trick would be what to displace. For the money, I think getting rid of Trapping Webs from Undaunted and adding a general non-synergy-based fear ability to Assault would be a nice trade.

Well it's one or the other either trying to sell something or just a really dumb decision either way you'd have had hoped they'd have more sense than this. On the hand of profiting well this is more likely to lower their profits than raise them as rapids makes it easier for new people or new toons to get into the game as it takes forever to get anywhere with a slow mount and especially cyrodil where even with rapids and full speed it's quite a trip. But yes putting it back to a spot that's easily accessible would be a good solution like first support position as you said.

Jaraal

silvereyes wrote: »

As tempting as it is to blame the change on a nefarious desire to sell more duo-mounts and riding lessons, I think it more likely that this is just another of hundreds of examples of ZOS making changes without thinking things through, or caring about unintended consequences.

Let's not forget the ability to buy fully maxed AvA skill lines for your alts, once you have ground it out on one of your characters. If you think players won't reach in their wallets to avoid having to do it all over again on the new character(s), you'd probably be wrong. And making the most popular skill in those trees that much harder to get will indeed increase profits.

As for it being some sort of mistake or oversight: Threads were being made about how terrible this change was the day it was released to the PTS. Many, many posts by many players begging them to rethink it or threatening to quit. But they went right ahead with their *vision*, leaving the majority of players disregarded and ignored. So clearly it's by design.... not an accident. And they don't have to tell us squat, and they won't, because there's nothing they can say that will make their decision look better to anyone. And they know it.

vendeatha

i'll admit was rather annoyed to find this change. But now i see the sense in it. Too many players afraid of pvp. Cyro is a seriously fun place to be. Has the most diverse actions in the game. I think it's actually most enjoyable fun in the game. So indeed Rank5 for rapid riding, Will give you the benefits of learning cyro pvp basics.

Stahlor

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

Lets make PvP skills ONLY USEABLE in PvP.

That is how it should have been all along.

Fine with that - but then PVE skills for PVE only and PVE sets for PVE only.! Would have a nice side effect, too - PVP players not whining all the time about op skills and sets, that get nerfed afterwards.
It's quite interesting how players react, when they get a skill a bit later. PVE players always have been forced to go into PVP to get Vigor, Rapid, Barrier, Warhorn, Purge, Guard and Caltrops. I still remember a time, when the leveling was much slower and it was a real pain in the ass.
With all the time players have spent complaining in the forums, they already would have reached the required level by playing instead.

NanoTechnicianHQ

Was reading in zone peeps grinding their level 5 today, was actually nice to see bow/staff combos being used as well, but yeah, was this also a point refund or is it being unlocked for free when arriving to level5? Guess I'll find out on my farming toon.

etchedpixels

If you had it then it re-unlocks for free when you hit 5. Or at least it did for me.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

Did you miss the bit that said "on low level characters"?

On a Level 10 Character, looking at only the first 2 skills from each line, due to how realistically it is that the player is likely to have had time to unlock and level these skills. And including magic heals which are much more viable at low level due to the resource pools not being as different in the early stages of the game:


Bloodthirst = 60% of Last Attack (136) = 81.6 every 0.6 secs = 136 H/sec
Vigor = 351 Health over 8 secs = 44 H/sec
Blood Craze = 232 Health over 10 Secs - 23 H/sec

Necro:
Ruinous Scythe = 375 Health per target hit + 175 for every other target hit (instant cast)
Render Flesh (Magic) = 352 Health (instant cast) = 352 H/sec

Sorc:
Unstable Familiar (Magic) = 2798 every 1.5 secs = 1865 H/sec

Templar:
Honor The Dead (Magic) = 364 Health (instant cast) = 364 H/Sec
Ritual of Rebirth (Magic) = 264 Health (instant cast) = 264 H/sec

Warden:
Soothing Spores = 241 Health (Instant Cast) = 241 H/Sec
Budding Seeds (Magic) = Using the self synergy on this you can heal for 40 + 353 = 393 H/sec on first heal, and less than this if spamming multiples.


For those classes that do not have their own healing skills, it is also perfectly viable to run stam builds at this level with a restro staff. Some players would consider this method preferential when levelling due to many of the base class skills costing magic until morphed. So you also have the option of:

Illustrious Healing = 58H/Sec
Rapid Regen = 120H/sec


So again, on LOW LEVEL characters, Vigor is not that great a heal compared to other options. It does have advantages over some of the options above (such as not needing a target to cast, and being fairly low cost) however in terms of healing output it is far from the best. And yes, it is unfair that the most optimal way to level a new stam character is to have to run a restro at first, or to only run dual wield, but that's ZOS' poor game design. Moving Vigor at the expense of Rapids isn't the answer, especially when they could have made Vigor (or Rapids) the first slot in the Support line instead. The answer was to do what they said they would do (3 years ago now?), which would be to rework every Class Skill Line to be like the Warden and Necro, so that every Class has a DPS/Tank/Heal Skill line complete with Stam heal options.

Wow just wow so you’re saying that STAMINA based characters don’t need vigor cause cause they can use resto staff a pure magic heal? This all scales even at low levels vigor is better. Any class with a stamina morph heal don’t need vigor as classes are always good if you stamina toons uses magic heals you will die over and over again to have to run away to reset bosses.

Stamina Templar Honor The Dead is better then nothing but will keep you alive I would know I leveled a stamina Templar. It’s hell even with Ritual of Rebirth it’s magic based and nowhere strong enough to keep you alive.

Not only do I craft my low level characters sets to fit there roles I’m pretty sure stamina toons are not out here wearing medium Seducer or Julianos so make there magic heals hit harder. If at any point in your argument you advocate for morphs or even whole skill lines that you will drop once you hit 160 that’s a bad argument. Why would you waste precious early level skill points on healing staff as a stamina character.

The fact that you think that casting Honor the Dead what the 3-4 times a stamina character can cast it before their magic is drained is wild. Vigor out heals ALL MAGIC heal from a stamina character. I didn’t added classes cause the post was a text wall as is and as I said any class with stamina heals are golden all others have trash heals and comparing magic based class heals to a stamina heal for a stamina character felt disingenuous because even the strongest magic heal is weak when casted by stamina characters.

Elsonso

TrelNord wrote: »

I sort of wish that everyone would stop complaining about this and just accept that it has nothing to do with user experience and everything to do with selling training scrolls or whatever comes next in the Crown Store.

They can monetize this and that is what is important.

Driving sales? I don't think so. This seems like a silly way to go about doing it, if that is the plan. If they want to monetize mount training, there are far more effective ways to do it that require a lot less developer time, and therefore maximize revenue.

They don't have to resort to tricks and subterfuge. They would just do it openly. Sneakiness is not needed.

Of course, ZOS is not above doing boneheaded things. They seem to enjoy doing the Leeroy Jenkins thing. While I think that is exactly what they are doing with Vigor, I don't think it is because they want to increase sales. I think that this is simply the Devs jumping into the lava before asking how deep it is. Meanwhile, everyone else is standing on the nearby bridge wondering why ZOS is in the lava.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

AlnilamE wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

No it's not I have 18 character all are max level crafters for my dailies and you don't need rapids at all to do dailies also my alts are well alts I do use them to do content if you are not doing to work to maintain an alt why made it. Another way to look at it is you also had six to level PvP ranks and you didn't and now six years later PvP was changed in a way to help PvP players and you're upset cause a skill line was changed to better help players that the skill line was made for.

Except it doesn't better help PVPers. As has already been stated, on low level characters Vigor is not a good heal. Most PVPers who play on multiple characters also know full well that, unless you prefer to play permanently in the under 50 campaign, you don't even touch PVP on new characters until you hit level hit lvl 50, and have collected as many skill points as possible. The time saved in grinding those skill points by having rapids far outweighs the time you then have to spend, getting Vigor, which at that point is actually a heal worth having.

Let's look at stamina heals vs Vigor

Resolving Vigor heals for 15,080 health total over 4 seconds that's 3,770 health per second at a cost of 2,536 stamina no target needed
***Resolving Vigor 3,770 heals per second 15,080 total for 4 seconds at a cost of 2,536 stamina***

Two Handed 1 heal
Rally: Which heals for 3,425 health AFTER 20 seconds or instant if you recast it gains 15% more heals per second maximum 300% to get the 300% heal you have to wait 20 seconds but no recast to get a heal before that 20 timer end you need to recast at full cost so thats a 3,425 heal if you recast one second later but is costly Rally cost 3,213 stamina to recast it's full price so 6,426 stamina for a 3,425 heal no target needed. This is also at the end of the skill line.
***Rally 3,425 heal after 20 seconds at a cost of 3,213 stamina or 3,939 heal if recast one second later for a total cost of 6,426 stamina***

One Hand and Shield 1 heal
Absorb Missile: Heal scales from max health but for me that's 2,634 at a cost of 3,672 stamina. So long as you are hit within 6 seconds you also get a 4,813 damage shield you need to get hit by a projectile for this to work and the damage would need to be less then 7,447 to out heal and shield the damage but this is for build with more health then mine.


Dual Wield 2 heals
Bloodthirst: Heals for 66% of the last hit that last hit for me 3,765 damage that's 1,355 health 0.6 seconds after the attack starts and ONLY if the last attack lands but it mostly does. This skill has to within 7m so you are right next to your target.

Blood Craze: when used on an enemy you heal for 7,235 Health over 10 second. With a cost of 2,295 you get 724 health per
second for 10 seconds needs a target.


Bow 1 heal
Draining Shot 7,245 instant heal if you hit the target 2,797 stamina cost.


Soul Magic 1 heal
Consuming Trap 3,292 health when an affected enemy dies 2,781 magic cost


Fighters Guild 1 heal
Ring of Preservation 638 heals per 0.5 seconds for 8 seconds 10,208 health total if you stay in the ring the whole time for 3,396 stamina cost.


Psijic Order 2 heals
Symbiosis light attacks heal for 1,290 and heavy attacks heal for 1,146 per second but you only get 55% of that so 710 for light, 630 per second for heavy but you only get this IF you heal an ally so this useless solo
Meditate and both morph like Symbiosis are free cost ,1589 or 1801 per second depending on which morph you get.


Undaunted 2 heals but only one for a stamina to make use of
Blood Altar Lifesteal 635 per second when damaging enemies for 30 seconds 4,449 health cost.

Numbers don't lie Vigor is hands down the best stamina heal

You forgot Mark Target

I didn’t do class heals cause the post was so long to stamina and classes with stamina heals are fine and they classes without stamina heals is literally the reason Vigor was added it’s from release it was added cause magic class heals was not enough to keep stamina players alive.

SilverBride

Stahlor wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

Lets make PvP skills ONLY USEABLE in PvP.

That is how it should have been all along.

Fine with that - but then PVE skills for PVE only and PVE sets for PVE only.!

That doesn't make logical sense, and I will explain why. Let's take a look at a fictional character named Bob, for example.

Bob is a Magika Sorcerer Vampire. Whether Bob is at one is his many houses, or in town crafting, or in a dungeon or trial, or running World Boss dailies, or even PvPing in Cyrodiil... Bob is still a Magika Sorcerer Vampire. Therefor Bob can use his Sorcerer, Vampire and other World skills wherever he goes.

But Bob is only a PvPer when in Cyrodiil. Therefor Bob can only use his PvP skills while in Cyrodiil.

esotoon

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wow just wow so you’re saying that STAMINA based characters don’t need vigor cause cause they can use resto staff a pure magic heal?

No, I didn't say that. In fact I specifically said it was wrong and that ZOS should have given all Classes a Stamina based Class Heal, like they promised they would 3 year ago.

This is the second time you have twisted what I have said in my posts by omitting things I actually said in the post you are responding to. Is this deliberate?

Stamina Templar Honor The Dead is better then nothing but will keep you alive I would know I leveled a stamina Templar. It’s hell even with Ritual of Rebirth it’s magic based and nowhere strong enough to keep you alive.

I'm sorry you struggled. I've levelled about 20 stamina characters. I've never needed more than Blood Craze and Blood Frenzy to get me through the pain patch, until better options were available. (Apart from the start of the game when hybrid builds were much more viable)

If at any point in your argument you advocate for morphs or even whole skill lines that you will drop once you hit 160 that’s a bad argument.

I didn't advocate for it. I said that this was the way the game was designed, and that it was poor game design on the part of ZOS. Please read what I actually wrote instead of what you think I wrote.

Why would you waste precious early level skill points on healing staff as a stamina character.

Because due to bad game design, nearly all base skills are Magic based. And those precious Skill points can be easily switched to Stamina, once you have unlocked enough skills and skill points to be more sustainable. But if you don't want to do this, you can go down the dual wield route, with magic based burst heals for support. And again, to make this clear, I do not think it right or fair that this is one of the easiest ways to level a Stamina class character, and should be changed.

To give another example, the fastest way to level a Tank character is to level it as a DPS character and then switch your skills once you have unlocked all the Skills, Skill Lines, Passives and Skill Points you required to be an effective tank. Do you have to do it this way? No. Is it right that levelling as a tank character when you want to be a tank is much slower? No. However, if you want to level a tank character as fast as possible, that's the way the game design forces you to go.

The fact that you think that casting Honor the Dead what the 3-4 times a stamina character can cast it before their magic is drained is wild. Vigor out heals ALL MAGIC heal from a stamina character.

Once again, I never said that. You can get HOTs from Blood Thirst and Blood Craze and compliment them with burst magic heals, so you shouldn't need to be spamming magic based heals. The fact that you are getting HOTS whilst killing things, also means the amount of time you are taking damage is shortened and the amount of damage you are taking is also being reduced through the fight, so you are taking less overall damage so need less healing. Where as if you stand there casting burst heals, those mobs are still alive constantly damaging you, and will be still outputting the same amount of DPS to you as they were before you started spamming heals.

And whilst Vigor is low cost, because it is a HOT, at LOW LEVELS, the amount of healing you get is not enough to save you in any kind of emergency situation where you need a burst heal.

erio

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Please require "Assault" level 2 for Rapid Maneuver again.

Not all of my characters are PVP friendly but all of them use Rapid Maneuver for the extra mount speed when riding around the world. This is a very basic ability I require for a new character just to move around especially when mount speed is so low! PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

Boo hoo. Pvp players have to grind pve skill lines and dungeons for days, you can manage an hour in cyro

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

This is a very basic ability I require for a new character just to move around especially when mount speed is so low!

Many players, myself included, have never used this skill, yet somehow we manage to play and level quite fine. It is by no means necessary for game play. This is your own personal requirement that you imposed on yourself.

New characters start with slow riding, and very few skills unlocked, and poor gear. That is the nature of a new character. You aren't meant to start off fully decked out and ready to go. This is called leveling.

I want to add, this is the description of the base skill: "Mobilize your forces, granting Major Expedition to you and your group, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 8 seconds. You and your group also gain Major Gallop, increasing your Mounted Speed by 30% for 30 seconds."

I don't see "for a new character just to move around" as an intended purpose. Any changes made to this skill are only relevant for its stated purpose, not what you decided to use it for.

tmbrinks

Everytime I check back in this thread the "pro-Vigor" crowd's arguments get more and more extreme

We all know why ZoS did this. $$$ There is no other explanation.

We can give all the "reasonable" excuses we want. We can argue and scream and complain all we want. We can beg for an "official response" from a dev.

We're not going to get it. They know what they're doing. They know why. We know why.

I think it's a terrible decision. We did what was required to get a skill. They took it away.

I also get that it's a business. They're here to make money. That's fine, but I don't like shadiness.

I've already been going w/o ESO plus on my 2nd account for a while, I will not likely be renewing it anytime soon.

Main account is paid for for a while now, but these changes, plus the instance performance right now, plus a few other things... who knows how I'll feel in 6 months. I'm 50/50 right now, to be honest.

This change has alienated a lot of players. It's not a good look. Sometimes customer satisfaction is more important then profits.

PizzaCat82

We can keep complaining about this and keep letting ZOS know what we don't want in our video games or we can have the forums be "Which crown crate do you want to see next" or "Which NPC do you want to marry" and have them think everything is fine.

SilverBride

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

We can keep complaining about this and keep letting ZOS know what we don't want in our video games or we can have the forums be "Which crown crate do you want to see next" or "Which NPC do you want to marry" and have them think everything is fine.

The forums are here for everyone to discuss everything Elder Scroll Online. Not just what you care about.

TheJTOON

vendeatha wrote: »

i'll admit was rather annoyed to find this change. But now i see the sense in it. Too many players afraid of pvp. Cyro is a seriously fun place to be. Has the most diverse actions in the game. I think it's actually most enjoyable fun in the game. So indeed Rank5 for rapid riding, Will give you the benefits of learning cyro pvp basics.

I have done Cyrodil for the last couple days and don’t plan to go back to PVP once I get Rapids back.

Linaleah

every time I see a vigor defender claim that they leveled just fine without rapids. guess what? i leveled multiple stam characters JUST FINE without vigor? and without CP, while barely understanding the game to boot. pvped on them a little too (as i said, I originally went into pvp on my stamblade because of caltrops, NOT vigor)

so this argument you are bringing up? is very VERY easily dismissed, because vigor is no more an absolute necessity then rapids is if your arguments were to be actualy taken at face value. So please come up with a better argument.

thanks.

as for this change. I have a feeling its here to stay. because.. yep. 2 person mounts. among other things. you know... I was actualy excited about those. but now. i'm not buying one even for my main account.

because contrary to the accusations, I've never hidden that for me its in large part about ability to make gold. less gold = less of it exchanged for crowns. oh well.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

esotoon wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Wow just wow so you’re saying that STAMINA based characters don’t need vigor cause cause they can use resto staff a pure magic heal?

No, I didn't say that. In fact I specifically said it was wrong and that ZOS should have given all Classes a Stamina based Class Heal, like they promised they would 3 year ago.

This is the second time you have twisted what I have said in my posts by omitting things I actually said in the post you are responding to. Is this deliberate?

Stamina Templar Honor The Dead is better then nothing but will keep you alive I would know I leveled a stamina Templar. It’s hell even with Ritual of Rebirth it’s magic based and nowhere strong enough to keep you alive.

I'm sorry you struggled. I've levelled about 20 stamina characters. I've never needed more than Blood Craze and Blood Frenzy to get me through the pain patch, until better options were available. (Apart from the start of the game when hybrid builds were much more viable)

If at any point in your argument you advocate for morphs or even whole skill lines that you will drop once you hit 160 that’s a bad argument.

I didn't advocate for it. I said that this was the way the game was designed, and that it was poor game design on the part of ZOS. Please read what I actually wrote instead of what you think I wrote.

Why would you waste precious early level skill points on healing staff as a stamina character.

Because due to bad game design, nearly all base skills are Magic based. And those precious Skill points can be easily switched to Stamina, once you have unlocked enough skills and skill points to be more sustainable. But if you don't want to do this, you can go down the dual wield route, with magic based burst heals for support. And again, to make this clear, I do not think it right or fair that this is one of the easiest ways to level a Stamina class character, and should be changed.

To give another example, the fastest way to level a Tank character is to level it as a DPS character and then switch your skills once you have unlocked all the Skills, Skill Lines, Passives and Skill Points you required to be an effective tank. Do you have to do it this way? No. Is it right that levelling as a tank character when you want to be a tank is much slower? No. However, if you want to level a tank character as fast as possible, that's the way the game design forces you to go.

The fact that you think that casting Honor the Dead what the 3-4 times a stamina character can cast it before their magic is drained is wild. Vigor out heals ALL MAGIC heal from a stamina character.

Once again, I never said that. You can get HOTs from Blood Thirst and Blood Craze and compliment them with burst magic heals, so you shouldn't need to be spamming magic based heals. The fact that you are getting HOTS whilst killing things, also means the amount of time you are taking damage is shortened and the amount of damage you are taking is also being reduced through the fight, so you are taking less overall damage so need less healing. Where as if you stand there casting burst heals, those mobs are still alive constantly damaging you, and will be still outputting the same amount of DPS to you as they were before you started spamming heals.

And whilst Vigor is low cost, because it is a HOT, at LOW LEVELS, the amount of healing you get is not enough to save you in any kind of emergency situation where you need a burst heal.

Okay I see the problem are you grinding up your levels?

I play all quest lines that give skill points so Zone quest, side quest and main story for the points. I only use the weapons that character will use Ashen Grip's damage proc makes leveling a tank as so much faster. I have 18 character and have tested this out you will waste MORE TIME level they way you are saying.

Leveling a tank as DPS is not needed Ancient Dragonguard, Ashen Grip and a two piece stamina recover will have you tank level as a Tank with tank skill lines. When you level skills trees that you're not going to sure at max level you end up having to level the skill trees you need which adds in more time I long deleted my Excel with the point by breakdown but it was like 15 hours saved. Things I took into account was wayshine unlocks, time to get the skills and passives needed for the build and time it took to get all the skill points needed.

All classes SHOULD have a stamina heal but they don't. So I see point in taking from the viewpoint of how it should be. Needing or using a healing staff has no place on a stamina build period unless it's a hybrid it's exp wasted. My toons only level skill lines they will use My Nightblade tank uses DW others don't.

Magic heals are on stamina build don't have a cost reduction and are weak. Vigor out heals DW on it own If Vigor is better then all magic instead of complimenting DW heals with a magic heal you would be better using the more Power Vigor and use your magic for class utilities. Based on you 20 stamina toons and my own testing you have could have wasted up to 300 hours on playtime having to fix bad leveling. Not judging just pointing it out. changing morhps not a problem at all but not having the right abilities, passives and enough skill points is very bad like I said in the future Ancient Dragonguard and Ashen Grip or Hunding's Rage and Ashen Grip will get your tank DPS high enough to not be slow.

Kavar162

Omg just craft 5pc shacklebreaker, 5pc axiom and grab a monster helm and just join a group in Cyrodiil. That will literally work for every single character. Enough to get 3 more levels of ap. Make a day out of it! Watch some Netflix, order a damn pizza. Like I get it, you don't like pvp but it is what it is. I don't like pve but I'm not out here trying to burn down zos hq because I have to find vDSA for perfect masters staffs. I just do it.

Linaleah

Kavar162 wrote: »

Omg just craft 5pc shacklebreaker, 5pc axiom and grab a monster helm and just join a group in Cyrodiil. That will literally work for every single character. Enough to get 3 more levels of ap. Make a day out of it! Watch some Netflix, order a damn pizza. Like I get it, you don't like pvp but it is what it is. I don't like pve but I'm not out here trying to burn down zos hq because I have to find vDSA for perfect masters staffs. I just do it.

yeeees, lets craft two full sets of armor, probably more then once, since not every alt is going to be the same level - an imaginary monster helm for under lvl 50 characters, go into cyrodil, HOPE that there is a group available and make a day out of it, to MAYBE get enough ap for two alts. then do it all over again, on the next pair of alts. and the next. and next thing you know, you just spent an entire work week, doing something you do not enjoy, while paying for the privilege. all to get BACK the ability we've had use of for years now.

no.

thank

you.

no one is trying to burn down ZoS hq here either, figuratively or otherwise. people are expressing their dislike for the change in hope that ZoS might review it again and either change it back or better yet - go with oft repeated suggestion of MOVING VIGOR TO SUPPORT TREE, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it to.

or... at the very least show ZoS that there are decisions that players are not happy with and enough of those decisions can actualy lose money for ZoS, so even if they do not adjust this change, they may think a little harder when making other changes in a future.

but god forbid people express opinions instead of just... spending their in-game leisure time doing something they dislike.

Thechuckage

All the arguments can basically get mirrored off one another, with the exception of the longevity of where the skills were allocated. There are multiple examples on both sides in this thread.

Just because a skill has been in a certain place, for however long, doesn't mean it should/will stay that way. Yes, it sucks when your preferred playstyle gets altered, it is one of the pitfalls with an online game.

JoeCapricorn

Yeah, in the time I've spent on these forums arguing, I maybe could have regained Rapids on... one entire alt.

I might still try to, but I am going to voice my displeasure the entire time.

Gythral

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yeah, in the time I've spent on these forums arguing, I maybe could have regained Rapids on... one entire alt.

I might still try to, but I am going to voice my displeasure the entire time.

Probably not!