Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

These were players that were never actually going into PvP. They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for. So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

Oh, you mean like Vigor is now?

ZOS thought it was enough of a grind that they made it easier for PvEers to obtain it. I guess ZOS is encouraging them to take "advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for" then.

Mmmm that was a delicious comeback.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

These were players that were never actually going into PvP. They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for. So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

Oh, you mean like Vigor is now?

ZOS thought it was enough of a grind that they made it easier for PvEers to obtain it. I guess ZOS is encouraging them to take "advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for" then.

Better the masses that will put it to good use than players too inept to set up bot trains.



By the way. 41 pages in. 2 months out. Any word from ZOS on the change back?

Urzigurumash

This comment was probably made before or maybe numerous times in this thread, but, I would think any PvE player could get Rapids on all their toons before any PvP player could get full Undaunted passives on every toon? Or no?

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on the change back?

Yeah, they said they are happy with the change and have no current plans to revert it.

But literally nobody in this thread asked to have the swap reverted. Nobody is unhappy with Vigor being easier to get for everyone. We just object to them taking a quality of life benefit used by both PvPers and PvEers since the beginning of the game and burying it behind a grind that a lot of people aren't willing to do.

There were multiple options available to them that would both achieve their stated goal (Vigor availability) and keep the majority of the players happy by leaving their already earned skill (Rapid Maneuver) alone. But they chose to ignore the overwhelming negative feedback since the change first hit the test server.

There really isn't anything else we can say about why they chose to do the unpopular and unecessary thing, without sanctions. But people can formulate their own conclusions. The body of evidence speaks for itself.

neiljwd

I still hate it.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on the change back?

unpopular and unecessary thing

So unpopular that the rest of the community has already moved on while a dozen or so posters spam this thread to keep the topic relevant.

Yup. Real unpopular.

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on the change back?

unpopular and unecessary thing

So unpopular that the rest of the community has already moved on

Yep. Almost 20% of the Steam players have moved on since this change went live. The number has recovered less than 1% so far, but that's likely because of the free house event. Once the artificial excitement wears off, I would expect the downward spiral to continue.

Unfortunate, because it didn't have to be this way.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

So unpopular that the rest of the community has already moved on while a dozen or so posters spam this thread to keep the topic relevant.

Yup. Real unpopular.

Funny how you had no idea what ZOS's response was, nor that there are new people posting in this thread pretty often still, and yet you apparently know exactly how the community feels about this. hmmmm...

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

there are new people posting in this thread pretty often still

Actually, there aren't. Every time it drops to page 2 or 3, one of the same few people posts the same things they've been posting for 40 pages just to keep it bumped.

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Better the masses that will put it to good use than players too inept to set up bot trains.

You realise that this still makes no sense.

You will now have players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" getting Vigor, just the same way that players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" were able to get Rapids, but you still haven't explained why one is ok and the other isn't.

On top of this, all those players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" that are willing to follow your previous advice to go and join a group and leech AP, can go into Cyrodiil, get enough AP for both Vigor and Rapids without ever once needing to hit an enemy player. So on one hand you are unhappy with non-PVPers getting one "PVP Skill" (in your words) without PVPing, yet perfectly happy with them getting two???

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Actually, there aren't. Every time it drops to page 2 or 3, one of the same few people posts the same things they've been posting for 40 pages just to keep it bumped.

Not going to go back through and point them all out, but there is literally one 8 posts above this post.

JoeCapricorn

New people post in this thread all the time. It is important for them to make their opinion known as well so ZOS can see the variety of players who are still disaffected by this change.

Barbara73

It sucks that I only open the PVP skill line to get Rapid Manure (intentional misspelling), only to have it yanked from me for a skill I have very little use for. Those that had it should have been left with it and the change been made for new players who aren't already sick of PVP.

Barbara73

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

[Removed quote]

vigor is only good for stamina toons. This change screws anyone trying to level an alt.

It might be usable by everyone leveling an alt, but I bet you dollars to donuts that Vigor will be more valuable than Rapid Maneuvers for most PVE players, and that is what this change looks to be addressing.

How many mag toons use vigor? What percentage of the player base are on mag toons?

Outside of Cyrodiil, where Assault 5 is going to be common, I rarely see anyone using Rapid Maneuvers except for a few higher level crafting resource farmers. i would suggest that fewer people are using it for PVE, as a percentage of the total population, than the percentage of people running Stamina.

I see it used by many in PVE every day and I play a lot. Everyone I play with uses it and we seldom play PVP maps

Calm_Fury

I have to say, initially I didn't find this would be a big issue. But now I went back to play old characters and all of a sudden several "lost" Rapids.

I can relate now to how people are angry at this.

They could at least reduce the AvA rank for the second skills as a compromise.

Goregrinder

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

That would require doing that kind of a grind on 11 additional characters. It isn't as easy as doing just the tutorial quests either, Assault rank 5 requires 98,000 AP. That takes hours.

I don't have the time, motivation and energy to do that kind of grind on 11 characters.

I play ESO as an escape from reality, to destress, and Rapid Maneuver is a long-standing part of my gameplay. It's how I move around whenever I am on a mount. I have it on every bar on every character.

I have done the tutorial quests and it got me to Assault Level: 2. Whoop dee doo. If they required Assault level 3 for Rapids, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it is Assault level 5.

I don't have the time or mental energy to grind that out on all of my other alts. I am not going to. So I hope they change it back or find a compromise that makes everyone happy.

Many of my characters aren't built for PVP, they are mules and have no skillpoints allocated to weapons or armor. Just crafting. There is no way they would be able to get Assault to 5. But Rapid Maneuver forms a basic method of mobility. It allows me to get to a bank NPC (and when applicable) an Outlaw Hideout just to unload stuff or sell stuff on a guild trader.

It allows new characters to move around without feeling like their mounts are made of molasses. It will be 55 days before my lowbie gets 60 in speed.

Even then, 60 speed feels too slow. I like Rapids just to go faster. I just like going faster. You know what I would rather do? Grind for 11 other Rings of the Wild Hunt

[Edited for removed content] [Further edited to fix some grammar issues caused by previous edit]

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

allhailskippy

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

I had a Ferrari. ZoS stole my keys.

Jaraal

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

Replace "Rapids" with "Vigor" and ask ZOS why they disagree with you.

Goregrinder

allhailskippy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

I had a Ferrari. ZoS stole my keys.

Didn't they refund skill points for it? If you already had Rapids unlocked, then your alliance rank should be like level 1 or 2 right? So you're already halfway back to rapids!

allhailskippy

Goregrinder wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

I had a Ferrari. ZoS stole my keys.

Didn't they refund skill points for it? If you already had Rapids unlocked, then your alliance rank should be like level 1 or 2 right? So you're already halfway back to rapids!

Halfway? I wish. Wouldn't be a discussion if it was halfway.

It's more like 1/80th of the way. Per character.

Goregrinder

Jaraal wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

Replace "Rapids" with "Vigor" and ask ZOS why they disagree with you.

Just unlock rank 5 and you will get rapids back!

Nomadic_Atmoran

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on the change back?

unpopular and unecessary thing

So unpopular that the rest of the community has already moved on

Yep. Almost 20% of the Steam players have moved on since this change went live. The number has recovered less than 1% so far, but that's likely because of the free house event. Once the artificial excitement wears off, I would expect the downward spiral to continue.

Unfortunate, because it didn't have to be this way.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Are you being serious? Its a new school year. There is always a drop off in activity in all MMOs this time of year. You have no evidence that these two things are even connected.

Nomadic_Atmoran

esotoon wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Better the masses that will put it to good use than players too inept to set up bot trains.

You realise that this still makes no sense.

You will now have players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" getting Vigor, just the same way that players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" were able to get Rapids, but you still haven't explained why one is ok and the other isn't.

On top of this, all those players that are "too inept to set up a bot train" that are willing to follow your previous advice to go and join a group and leech AP, can go into Cyrodiil, get enough AP for both Vigor and Rapids without ever once needing to hit an enemy player. So on one hand you are unhappy with non-PVPers getting one "PVP Skill" (in your words) without PVPing, yet perfectly happy with them getting two???

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is better than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree. Thats your problem. If you are also unable to deduce my meaning behind "too inept to set up a bot train" comment. Thats also your problem.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings!

We've removed some posts from this thread given their baiting nature. It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is rather than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree.

Besides the fact that I disagree with you as to whether these skills are more or less important than each other, your logic makes no sense. Surely the "important" skill should take more grinding to get than the "not important" skill?

So again, if you were upset that non-PVPers could get Rapids without doing PVP, why are you happy for them to get Vigor without doing PVP?

Thats also your problem.

Usually, if someone writes a message that is both hard to understand, illogical and seemingly contradictory to what they have written before, the problem lies with the writer not the reader. Your mileage may vary of course.

esotoon

Goregrinder wrote: »

Just unlock rank 5 and you will get rapids back!

The problem with this is the word "Just"

Going from what has been reported in this thread, it takes approx 2.5-5 hours to get from Vigor to Rapids. It can be done quicker, but it can also take longer, especially by people who aren't familiar with PVP and on a slow horse.

So on 18 characters, you are talking approx 2 to 4 days of your life, to get back a skill you may have had for over 6 years. With no extra reward or benefit for spending that time doing so. And why are you having to spend that much time doing so? No reason whatsoever.

So it all depends on how much value you put on the time involved in that little word "just", and how you feel about a company enforcing such a change when there were options available that wouldn't have required any "justing" at all.

And of course the old chestnut of, if this change is perfectly acceptable because you can "just" go get Rapids, then didn't the same apply to Vigor, so why was the change needed?

Goregrinder

allhailskippy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

We all like driving in Ferrari's but if you want that luxury you gotta grind for it like everyone else who drives a Ferrari. Rapids is a luxury that is rewarded to you for spending the time and effort farming it. It's not required in order to play, you can play perfectly fine without it. But if you want it, then go out and unlock it.

I had a Ferrari. ZoS stole my keys.

Didn't they refund skill points for it? If you already had Rapids unlocked, then your alliance rank should be like level 1 or 2 right? So you're already halfway back to rapids!

Halfway? I wish. Wouldn't be a discussion if it was halfway.

It's more like 1/80th of the way. Per character.

Vigor requires rank 1 right? Rapids requires rank 5 right? You should have at least Rank 2 unlocked right? [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

markulrich1966

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Any word from ZOS on the change back?

unpopular and unecessary thing

So unpopular that the rest of the community has already moved on

Yep. Almost 20% of the Steam players have moved on since this change went live. The number has recovered less than 1% so far, but that's likely because of the free house event. Once the artificial excitement wears off, I would expect the downward spiral to continue.

Unfortunate, because it didn't have to be this way.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Are you being serious? Its a new school year. There is always a drop off in activity in all MMOs this time of year. You have no evidence that these two things are even connected.

so why have other games up to 60% INcrease?

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is better than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree. Thats your problem.

Define "important."

I have 10 stamina characters who are level 50, not one of them found Vigor to be an important skill. In fact, those of them who actually purchased Vigor when it was Alliance rank 5 found it to be a waste of a skill slot, and used something else.

On the other hand, being able to get to objectives faster, completing quests faster, traveling between world bosses, dungeons, delves, dolmens, keeps, lore books and so on and so forth were far more important in the leveling process for ALL of my characters (magicka or stamina) than a healing skill I never wanted or needed.

Even ZOS didn't feel it was important enough to be a rank 2 skill for six years. But they felt Rapids was important enough to be unlocked right away. What does that tell you?

Raideen

My fundamental issue with the removing of Rapid Maneuver is that they are taking away an ability I already worked for, on multiple characters. I don't want to be forced to doing PVP AGAIN in order to get the ability. I tried PVP multiple times in this game and I just do not like it, not at all. I have MOSTLY only done PVP for the entirety of my online existence. If I logged into WOW tonight, I'd be doing PVP. If I logged into SWTOR tonight, I'd be doing PVP. But in ESO its just done so badly that I find no fun in it.

I have seen some extremely questionable design decisions in my lifetime, but this one....