Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Destai

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

I'm confused. You said that "If it's about what the customers are happy with", which means you believe this decision could have been made for reasons that weren't to do with player's happiness.

You then said "then you need to consider all the customers." Which, given that this change penalises some players when there were options that penalised none, must mean that ZOS didn't take into account all their players. (You even bolded the "all" bit to show how essential it is.)

Sorry for the confusion. I was replying to this poster's reply to Gina's previous post where she stated they are happy with how this change is working:

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

And I replied what I did, meaning if they base their decisions on what the customers are happy with, (which I never said I agree with, because I think making some players happy needs to be balanced with doing what is best for all), that they would then need to consider all the customers, not just the ones who may not like the change. I never considered that anyone was being penalized.

But I also said I found a compromise that was presented to be reasonable. It would make more people happy and I could back that.

My main issue is with their language and approach to Community Management on these issues. We've had a couple of fiascos like this where ZOS employees just dig their heels instead of looking at from our perspective. Games are a service and rely on player feedback being reasonably implemented to be successful. Of course, features should be vetted and considered for a wide range of player types.

The PTS had plenty of feedback on this and in true ZOS fashion, was summarily ignored because it doesn't match some untold vision they have. No one's expecting a democratically developed game, that's not realistic. But feedback is being ignored with no reasoning or specific language from ZOS - again. Again they implement a change that punishes progress and expect players to accept and shrug it off with some tone-deaf comment. That's the problem.

Ackwalan

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

joerginger

Sure, but the speed in this game is particularly painfully slow. Rapids made it at least somewhat tolerable.

SilverBride

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

This type of statement is what I find the most frustrating, because it is a gross exaggeration. Some people will want to move faster, but not all. There are many players who never use rapids.

Machete

It's good for your health. Nothing teaches situational awareness like waiting for a 1 shot ganker~! [snip]

[edited for bait]

Ackwalan

SilverBride wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

This type of statement is what I find the most frustrating, because it is a gross exaggeration. Some people will want to move faster, but not all. There are many players who never use rapids.

It's the simple truth. Just like bag space, an increase would be welcome, but it won't take long until more is wanted. If rapids was replaced with an increased base movement spend, it would not take long until a "rapids" like skill be added.

Jaraal

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

Clarification for this discussion: People will always want to move as fast as they have for years, not slower.

While it's still true that people will rail against making anything harder to obtain, the true disservice is having something taken away that was an integral part of your gaming experience. The uproar would have been far less dramatic if they had simply grandfathered in those who already had Rapids unlocked, and only required AR5 for characters who had not yet earned it. And yet, there it sits.... fully barred Rapid Maneuver IV forever mocking you on your skills page. And with a locked icon to remind you of what you once had, but are now required to grind unnecessary gameplay that you may or may not even be interested in to get back.

silvereyes

Destai wrote: »

No one's expecting a democratically developed game, that's not realistic. But feedback is being ignored with no reasoning or specific language from ZOS - again.

Actually, I've written my democratically elected representative before, and the language I got back from them was very similar to the ones we get from ZOS.

Taleof2Cities

Jaraal wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

Clarification for this discussion: People will always want to move as fast as they have for years, not slower.

While it's still true that people will rail against making anything harder to obtain, the true disservice is having something taken away that was an integral part of your gaming experience. The uproar would have been far less dramatic if they had simply grandfathered in those who already had Rapids unlocked, and only required AR5 for characters who had not yet earned it. And yet, there it sits.... fully barred Rapid Maneuver IV forever mocking you on your skills page. And with a locked icon to remind you of what you once had, but are now required to grind unnecessary gameplay that you may or may not even be interested in to get back.

I'm starting to worry about the time forum-goers are spending crafting posts on this topic in the forums ... when that time could be used to level up multiple characters to Assault 5.

At least for me, I was able to take action on my lower level characters before the PTS testing period was over (and after Update 27 went live).

esotoon

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I'm starting to worry about the time forum-goers are spending crafting posts on this topic in the forums ... when that time could be used to level up multiple characters to Assault 5.

I'd be more worried by your apparent inability to multitask.

Taleof2Cities

esotoon wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I'm starting to worry about the time forum-goers are spending crafting posts on this topic in the forums ... when that time could be used to level up multiple characters to Assault 5.

I'd be more worried by your apparent inability to multitask.

I was able to take action on my lower level characters before the PTS testing period was over ... and after Update 27 went live.

No multitasking needed.

esotoon

{Deleted in case Mods view banter as baiting, so as not to derail thread.]

Jaraal

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

Clarification for this discussion: People will always want to move as fast as they have for years, not slower.

While it's still true that people will rail against making anything harder to obtain, the true disservice is having something taken away that was an integral part of your gaming experience. The uproar would have been far less dramatic if they had simply grandfathered in those who already had Rapids unlocked, and only required AR5 for characters who had not yet earned it. And yet, there it sits.... fully barred Rapid Maneuver IV forever mocking you on your skills page. And with a locked icon to remind you of what you once had, but are now required to grind unnecessary gameplay that you may or may not even be interested in to get back.

I'm starting to worry about the time forum-goers are spending crafting posts on this topic in the forums ... when that time could be used to level up multiple characters to Assault 5.

Most people don't like to PvP. I enjoy it.... but you may have missed the post on page one where the OP stated that PvP was an anxiety trigger for him and that being forced to do something he doesn't like such as this causes him to have unecessary stress issues. And others have stated the same thing.

Suppose someone is terrified of spiders. Take his wallet, with all his money and credit cards he's been carefully protecting for all these years from him, and throw it into a pit of tarantulas, and tell him if he wants it, all he has to do is jump into the pit, kill a bunch of spiders, and take it back.

All he's got to do is get in there with the spiders for 'two hours' tops. What's the problem? What if he has 16 wallets that he's invested a lot into and cherishes? Let's throw them all in there one at a time and make him get each one back before we toss in the next. Should be pretty simple, right? Maybe calling him lazy or a crybaby will help him get them back faster. Seems like a reasonable solution to some.

It's one thing to tell someone, "Here's what you have to do if you want something. And here's how you get it." The person has a clear picture of what he needs to do, and can make the decision whether he wants to put the effort in or not. Well, millions of players made the decision to go do a five minute tutorial to get Rapids. So they put in the "work", but now have nothing to show for it.

It's not the amount of time as much as it is the principle of it.

JoeCapricorn

In my case the spiders wouldn't bother me, although I might still be cautious - it also depends on the tarantula. If they were all Arizona Blondes I'd get my stuff back without any issue, maybe some urticating hairs getting kicked my way but no tarantulas would be harmed.

Now if they were Poecilotheria metallica, then it would be a bit scarier, but if they had room to move away from me they would prefer to do that instead of outright bite me (which would hurt a lot more than other tarantulas). But no one is going to fill a room with those, since each one as an adult can cost over $300.

The best analogy I can think of is having my driver's license taken away and put behind some arbitrary requirement involving something I generally dislike doing for about 45 hours. Of course I can walk to places, ride bike to places, or call an Uber (the real life and slower version of guild taxi), but I am comfortable having my own vehicle and my own volition to get to places in a timely manner.

That is at the heart of my argument, Rapid Maneuver was a quality of life skill that helped me get to places in a timely manner. It was an important skill for many players regardless of how much or how little they spent in Cyrodiil because it also helped them get to places in a timely manner. Transient events are easier to miss now without Rapid Manuever being on our bars, and I know more than a few people who posted in this thread as well as in-game that don't have Rapids anymore on any alt.

It is categorically unfair to require PVP to regain a skill that is not strictly used for PVP.

Thechuckage

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people don't like to PvP. I enjoy it.... but you may have missed the post on page one where the OP stated that PvP was an anxiety trigger for him and that being forced to do something he doesn't like such as this causes him to have unecessary stress issues. And others have stated the same thing.

Suppose someone is terrified of spiders. Take his wallet, with all his money and credit cards he's been carefully protecting for all these years from him, and throw it into a pit of tarantulas, and tell him if he wants it, all he has to do is jump into the pit, kill a bunch of spiders, and take it back.

All he's got to do is get in there with the spiders for 'two hours' tops. What's the problem? What if he has 16 wallets that he's invested a lot into and cherishes? Let's throw them all in there one at a time and make him get each one back before we toss in the next. Should be pretty simple, right? Maybe calling him lazy or a crybaby will help him get them back faster. Seems like a reasonable solution to some.

I've seen some pretty terri-bad metaphors and that one is no exception. Hyperbole makes for poor arguments.

On another note, should skills be shifted for QoL? During the MYM, there were plenty of arguments between pvp and pve players. One of the pvp comments stuck out about them having to do a lot of pve activities to be competitive - mainly undaunted skill lines.

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

SilverBride

Jaraal wrote: »

...you may have missed the post on page one where the OP stated that PvP was an anxiety trigger for him and that being forced to do something he doesn't like such as this causes him to have unecessary stress issues. And others have stated the same thing.

Suppose someone is terrified of spiders. Take his wallet, with all his money and credit cards he's been carefully protecting for all these years from him, and throw it into a pit of tarantulas, and tell him if he wants it, all he has to do is jump into the pit, kill a bunch of spiders, and take it back.

I don't like PvP in this game either, but when I read things like this it really frustrates me. The player PvPing isn't actually physically there, like the person who has to face real life spiders. So that is apples and oranges.

I am not downplaying that his anxiety may be real, but a game can't have every single mechanic based on the concept that someone somewhere may not like it, or may get anxious doing it, etc..

Offering this person a way to do it with less anxiety would be the more reasonable thing to do in this case. If he went in with a group of friends, or guildmates, or people he felt comfortable around, it would probably alleviate a lot of that anxiety.

In the meantime he could back up the players asking for a compromise to the situation.

Jaraal

Thechuckage wrote: »

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

Depends on a number of things, like how much time do you want to spend for improvements, is it something you like doing, and / or how much cash are you willing to spend for it.

I think the baseline for QoL should be: Does it improve quality? If the answer is no, or if the answer is that it makes quality of life worse, then it shouldn't be considered.

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

...you may have missed the post on page one where the OP stated that PvP was an anxiety trigger for him and that being forced to do something he doesn't like such as this causes him to have unecessary stress issues. And others have stated the same thing.

Suppose someone is terrified of spiders. Take his wallet, with all his money and credit cards he's been carefully protecting for all these years from him, and throw it into a pit of tarantulas, and tell him if he wants it, all he has to do is jump into the pit, kill a bunch of spiders, and take it back.

I don't like PvP in this game either, but when I read things like this it really frustrates me. The player PvPing isn't actually physically there, like the person who has to face real life spiders. So that is apples and oranges.

But the hate whispers are real, and can hurt.

If the person doesn't want to be there in the first place, does it make it any easier when people are telling him he sucks, he let the team down, go back to PvE, why are you wasting valuable population slots, taking a spot away from someone who actually wants to PvP, etc. And those are the mildest of insults. He never got those kind of messages while he was questing, or gathering materials to furnish his house. All he wants is to be left alone and be able to get around like he used to.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

tell me. if they make rapids available easier, without touching vigor. would you be UNHAPPY?

because this change created a false dichotomy. that did NOT need to exist. BOTH vigor and rapids could have been available on completion of Cyrodil tutorial.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

People will always want to move faster then the base speed no matter what it is set at.

This type of statement is what I find the most frustrating, because it is a gross exaggeration. Some people will want to move faster, but not all. There are many players who never use rapids.

and that's FINE. having acess to rapids doesn't mean you are forced to use them. making rapids accessible does NOT hurt people who do not wish to move faster. (and if they decide that they do - they can always chose to start using rapids)


this is NOT about people who do not use and never used rapids. this is about people who DO.

Linaleah

Thechuckage wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people don't like to PvP. I enjoy it.... but you may have missed the post on page one where the OP stated that PvP was an anxiety trigger for him and that being forced to do something he doesn't like such as this causes him to have unecessary stress issues. And others have stated the same thing.

Suppose someone is terrified of spiders. Take his wallet, with all his money and credit cards he's been carefully protecting for all these years from him, and throw it into a pit of tarantulas, and tell him if he wants it, all he has to do is jump into the pit, kill a bunch of spiders, and take it back.

All he's got to do is get in there with the spiders for 'two hours' tops. What's the problem? What if he has 16 wallets that he's invested a lot into and cherishes? Let's throw them all in there one at a time and make him get each one back before we toss in the next. Should be pretty simple, right? Maybe calling him lazy or a crybaby will help him get them back faster. Seems like a reasonable solution to some.

I've seen some pretty terri-bad metaphors and that one is no exception. Hyperbole makes for poor arguments.

On another note, should skills be shifted for QoL? During the MYM, there were plenty of arguments between pvp and pve players. One of the pvp comments stuck out about them having to do a lot of pve activities to be competitive - mainly undaunted skill lines.

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

undaunted should be levelable through pvp IMO. mage guild skill line and psijic could and should be adjusted in how long it takes to max them out (but that would sell fewer crown store shortcuts, so that is unlikely to happen.... and we are back to conspiracy theories as to why ZoS is happy with the way change is performing)

Thechuckage

Jaraal wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

Depends on a number of things, like how much time do you want to spend for improvements, is it something you like doing, and / or how much cash are you willing to spend for it.

I think the baseline for QoL should be: Does it improve quality? If the answer is no, or if the answer is that it makes quality of life worse, then it shouldn't be considered.

Gonna try again. Plenty of pvpers hate pve. But they need it to remain competitive. Should ZoS move the undaunted passives to the first couple skill slots in the undaunted line?

@Linaleah kinda disagree with you on that...on second thought, the in Cyro dolmens and daedric beasties should give a significant boost to undaunted. Much higher than outside.

SilverBride

Linaleah wrote: »

if they make rapids available easier, without touching vigor. would you be UNHAPPY?

As I already stated:

SilverBride wrote: »

I found a compromise that was presented to be reasonable. It would make more people happy and I could back that.

Linaleah wrote: »

this is NOT about people who do not use and never used rapids. this is about people who DO.

This is about anyone, and everyone who plays this game.

Jaraal

Thechuckage wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

Depends on a number of things, like how much time do you want to spend for improvements, is it something you like doing, and / or how much cash are you willing to spend for it.

I think the baseline for QoL should be: Does it improve quality? If the answer is no, or if the answer is that it makes quality of life worse, then it shouldn't be considered.

Gonna try again. Plenty of pvpers hate pve. But they need it to remain competitive. Should ZoS move the undaunted passives to the first couple skill slots in the undaunted line?

A better analogy would be, what if Undaunted Command and Undaunted Mettle were previously the first unlocks in the skill line, and ZOS decided to take them away and move them to Undaunted Rank 5 so a PvPer now gets to grind PvE dungeons where he never had to before? Would that be ok?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Define "everyone".
In your analogy, you and your neighbour are happy if you share the power, but not the power company which earns less money by issuing one shared bill than issuing two separate bills.

Lord-Otto

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Define "everyone".
In your analogy, you and your neighbour are happy if you share the power, but not the power company which earns less money by issuing one shared bill than issuing two separate bills.

Wrong. Rapids benefitted everyone. So you, your neighbor, the electric company and the rats nibbling on your cable.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Lord-Otto wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Define "everyone".
In your analogy, you and your neighbour are happy if you share the power, but not the power company which earns less money by issuing one shared bill than issuing two separate bills.

Wrong. Rapids benefitted everyone. So you, your neighbor, the electric company and the rats nibbling on your cable.

Nope. Noone will ever buy the alliance war skill lines nor AP booster in the crown store for rapids as long as it is available in 5 minutes just by porting to Cyrodiil. Now players have an incentive to do that (and, considering the reactions, that's a huuuuge crowd, especially the huge PvE-only crowd that desperately needs rapids but do not want to PvP).
Old situation benefitted all players, but not ZOS.
New situation benefits ZOS. That's not conspiracy. That's business.
(And to those who are crying "profits" already, remember that unless we live from growing our own food in our won garden, we ALL live on profit, including civil servants - paid with taxes made from profits, non-profit-organizations - living from donations made on profit, etc. ).

Lord-Otto

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Define "everyone".
In your analogy, you and your neighbour are happy if you share the power, but not the power company which earns less money by issuing one shared bill than issuing two separate bills.

Wrong. Rapids benefitted everyone. So you, your neighbor, the electric company and the rats nibbling on your cable.

Nope. Noone will ever buy the alliance war skill lines nor AP booster in the crown store for rapids as long as it is available in 5 minutes just by porting to Cyrodiil. Now players have an incentive to do that (and, considering the reactions, that's a huuuuge crowd, especially the huge PvE-only crowd that desperately needs rapids but do not want to PvP).
Old situation benefitted all players, but not ZOS.
New situation benefits ZOS. That's not conspiracy. That's business.
(And to those who are crying "profits" already, remember that unless we live from growing our own food in our won garden, we ALL live on profit, including civil servants - paid with taxes made from profits, non-profit-organizations - living from donations made on profit, etc. ).

Oh, I get you now.
Yes, that's a common theory. If that was the intention, I think ZOS are making a mistake, though. People will just stop making new characters or playing PvP, which means less time playing.

JoeCapricorn

It won't matter how polished the PVP experience gets, how fun or rewarding it is, there will simply be those who prefer not to participate in it. There are a myriad of valid reasons why. The whole history of The Elder Scrolls series of games is to play the way you want. Some people RP or spend their time fishing or farming. Some like to create characters or stick with PvE. Some play largely solo with the master audio turned off and iTunes playing something in the background instead.

It is also indisputable that Rapid Maneuver was a QOL skill that a lot of players used outside of PVP. Something as simple as a skill that enabled people to get around faster on a mount may not seem like a big deal to everyone, but it is a basic skill we took for granted. I admit I took it for granted, especially after using it for 6 years.

By touching it and putting it behind a wall of PVP activity, which not every player desires to do, an artificial inconvenience was created. The only way around this for me is to either engage in a stressful and anxiety inducing activity, or spend 3000 crowns for the Alliance skill line unlock. Furthermore, the consumables coming with Markarth can also be purchased on the crown store, and these serve to shorten the amount of time it takes to level the Alliance skill line. If you don't want us to conclude that the motivation was to just sell Rapid Maneuver back to us on the crown store, then you need to provide a counterpoint. Some kind of compromise, as discussed before, would be the best way. None of that involves changing Vigor. No one is asking for this to be "reverted", but it is categorically unfair to require PVP for a skill that for six years was used very often outside of PVP.

75 days remain on my subscription.

joerginger

Almost the same for me, only I still have 218 days left until ESO+ runs out. After character 8 I stopped working at getting back Rapids. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable about this endeavour whatsoever, neither for me, nor for the poor other players who end up with one of my non-PvP-optimized characters on their team in a battleground. Even worse, I'm definitely extremely unskilled when it comes to PvP, so the only real result is a lot of disappointment.